12 Sep
2008
12 Sep
'08
10:17 a.m.
LINUX AUDIO COURSE ROTTERDAM (THE NETHERLANDS)
Working with Linux? With the most important OpenSource audio projects for midi
sequencers, softsynths, effect plugins and samplers? WORM offers a Linux
audio course, developed by Lieven Moors, to pass on necessary and sufficient
knowledge for working with Linux audio software to fellow musicians.
Goal of the course
We will start with an introduction into Linux; installing and starting
programs and daemons, giving commands and editing configuration files. A same
introduction goes for Alsa (Advanced Linux Sound Architecture) and Jack (Jack
Audio Connection Kit). After this audio software like Ardour, Audacity and
Sox will get a close hands-on introduction. After that the course will
continue with Linux plugins (a.o. LADSPA, DSSI, VST) and midi/sequencers
(a.o. Rosegarden, Seq24, Muse, Hydrogen). Besides that there will be a full
overview of the most important softsynths and samplers for the Linux
operating system (a.o. ZynAddSubFX, Fluidsynth, Linuxsampler). Other programs
like Freqtweak (digital signal processor), Festival (speech synthesis), Jamin
(mastering), LASH (audio session handler) and Freecycle (looping software)
will also pass review.
An expanded overview of the most important audio software for Linux will be
given to the course members as well as an introduction of to how to use these
programs.
Lieven Moors
Lieven Moors lives in Brussels and used to be the guitarist and composer in
Belgium outfit Das Pop. Nowadays he performs as a solo musician and traded
his guitar for a computer running the GNU/ Linux operating system and
numerous audio and midi programs. He personally mastered a lot of
difficulties that he ran into using Linux audio software and wants to share
and pass on his adapted skills, knowledge and experience over the last years.
Start: October 7, 2008 (with enough reservations – submit your application
before september 29)
Duur: 12 lessons of 3 hours
Wanneer: tuesday from 19.30 till 22.30
Waar: Worm in Rotterdam (www.wormweb.nl)
Prijs: 350 euros (including study material)
To apply or for more info: Katelyn(a)wormweb.nl
or for more info: lievenmoors(a)gmail.com
The course will be given in English
12 Sep
12 Sep
11:16 a.m.
On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 02:18:32PM +0200, katelyn wrote:
Lieven Moors lives in Brussels and used to be the
guitarist and composer in
Belgium outfit Das Pop. Nowadays he performs as a solo musician and traded
his guitar for a computer running the GNU/ Linux operating system and
numerous audio and midi programs. He personally mastered a lot of
difficulties that he ran into using Linux audio software and wants to share
and pass on his adapted skills, knowledge and experience over the last years.
Next time Mr. Moors asks for help on this list
I'll charge my usual consultancy fee.
Ciao,
--
FA
Laboratorio di Acustica ed Elettroacustica
Parma, Italia
O tu, che porte, correndo si ?
E guerra e morte !
1:18 p.m.
So, since your name implies you make a living doing audio work with linux
too, we should be charging you a fee when you ask something too?
He's not saying from now on he asks money for help, he's just offering a
service to people living near Rotterdam to have a regular help program, why
shouldn't he be able to ask money for it?
Isn't the goal of this list to help people to use linux audio
professionally?
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Fons Adriaensen" <fons(a)kokkinizita.net>
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 3:13 PM
To: "katelyn" <katelyn(a)wormweb.nl>
Cc: <linux-audio-user(a)lists.linuxaudio.org>
Subject: Re: [LAU] Linux audio course Rotterdam
On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 02:18:32PM +0200, katelyn
wrote:
Lieven Moors lives in Brussels and used to be the
guitarist and composer
in
Belgium outfit Das Pop. Nowadays he performs as a solo musician and
traded
his guitar for a computer running the GNU/ Linux operating system and
numerous audio and midi programs. He personally mastered a lot of
difficulties that he ran into using Linux audio software and wants to
share
and pass on his adapted skills, knowledge and experience over the last
years.
Next time Mr. Moors asks for help on this list
I'll charge my usual consultancy fee.
Ciao,
--
FA
Laboratorio di Acustica ed Elettroacustica
Parma, Italia
O tu, che porte, correndo si ?
E guerra e morte !
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-user mailing list
Linux-audio-user(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-audio-user
2:17 p.m.
Sheesss....
First, I think asking for money for what you do and asking for help
on this forum is ok. but 350E seems a lot.
2nd, Fons gives MUCH MORE than he takes. I learn loads from him. He's
a valuable resource on this and other forums!
On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 8:18 AM, Tinco Andringa <mail(a)tinco.nl> wrote:
So, since your name implies you make a living doing
audio work with linux
too, we should be charging you a fee when you ask something too?
He's not saying from now on he asks money for help, he's just offering a
service to people living near Rotterdam to have a regular help program, why
shouldn't he be able to ask money for it?
Isn't the goal of this list to help people to use linux audio
professionally?
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Fons Adriaensen" <fons(a)kokkinizita.net>
> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 02:18:32PM +0200, katelyn wrote:
>
>> Lieven Moors lives in Brussels and used to be the guitarist and composer
>> in
>> Belgium outfit Das Pop. Nowadays he performs as a solo musician and
>> traded
>> his guitar for a computer running the GNU/ Linux operating system and
>> numerous audio and midi programs. He personally mastered a lot of
>> difficulties that he ran into using Linux audio software and wants to
>> share
>> and pass on his adapted skills, knowledge and experience over the last
>> years.
>
> Next time Mr. Moors asks for help on this list
> I'll charge my usual consultancy fee.
>
> Ciao,
>
> --
> FA
>
> Laboratorio di Acustica ed Elettroacustica
> Parma, Italia
>
> O tu, che porte, correndo si ?
> E guerra e morte !
--
Brad Fuller
www.bradfuller.com
2:50 p.m.
Brad Fuller wrote:
Sheesss....
First, I think asking for money for what you do and asking for help
on this forum is ok. but 350E seems a lot.
2nd, Fons gives MUCH MORE than he takes. I learn loads from him. He's
a valuable resource on this and other forums!
On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 8:18 AM, Tinco Andringa <mail(a)tinco.nl> wrote:
First: we post our answers not at the top on the list is it?
Second. A course can give the use of linux audio a 'boost'. We talked
about the fact that it is not always easy for at least newbies to find
your way in linux audio. Many people get lost and give up...
So a course would be a very good thing in my view! :)
Third: When you give a course it cost you: time, traveling costs
(Brussels > R'dam) organization, making a course book (and copy it?) and
linux audio usage, educational and presentation skills.... that could
deserve some money....
And I think it's free to make money out of GNU software... and we're
free to join or not.
But I agree also with all what Brad Fuller says.... and I think 350
euro's is not cheap at all.... (!)
Regards,
So, since your name implies you make a living
doing audio work with linux
too, we should be charging you a fee when you ask something too?
He's not saying from now on he asks money for help, he's just offering a
service to people living near Rotterdam to have a regular help program, why
shouldn't he be able to ask money for it?
Isn't the goal of this list to help people to use linux audio
professionally?
>
> Next time Mr. Moors asks for help on this list
> I'll charge my usual consultancy fee.
>
> Ciao,
>
> --
> FA
>
> Laboratorio di Acustica ed Elettroacustica
> Parma, Italia
>
> O tu, che porte, correndo si ?
> E guerra e morte !
>
3:22 p.m.
Grammostola Rosea wrote:
Brad Fuller wrote:
Depends...
350eur/person - 50eur/person cost (course material, venue, ...)
= 300eur/person
20ppl * 300eur = 6000eur
- 20% VAT = 4800eur
3hrs x 12 lessons = 36hrs
=> 133eur/hr
which, in Belgium, corresponds to a net wage of 40eur/hr
That's assuming that he doesn't spend time on the course material etc...
my experience with teaching is that you need at least one hour of prep
for each hour you teach.
so we're down to 20eur/hr. If he can manage to get 20people interested.
I agree that it's a lot of money, but if he plays by the (Belgian) tax
rules and provides a decent course, it's not that much. I don't know a
lot of experts that work for less than 20eur/hr, and that's without
taking any risk.
For comparison: in the government subsidized culture center in my city
they offer an introductory Cubase course of 5x2.5hrs for 135eur. Do the
math. (Note that participants have the option to BUY Cubase -50%...).
So my opinion: if he does it well, it's not too much. And it's optional,
unlike buying Cubase. In theory.
Greets,
Pieter
Sheesss....
First, I think asking for money for what you do and asking for help
on this forum is ok. but 350E seems a lot.
2nd, Fons gives MUCH MORE than he takes. I learn loads from him. He's
a valuable resource on this and other forums!
On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 8:18 AM, Tinco Andringa <mail(a)tinco.nl> wrote:
First: we post our answers not at the top on the list is it?
Second. A course can give the use of linux audio a 'boost'. We talked
about the fact that it is not always easy for at least newbies to find
your way in linux audio. Many people get lost and give up...
So a course would be a very good thing in my view! :)
Third: When you give a course it cost you: time, traveling costs
(Brussels > R'dam) organization, making a course book (and copy it?) and
linux audio usage, educational and presentation skills.... that could
deserve some money....
And I think it's free to make money out of GNU software... and we're
free to join or not.
But I agree also with all what Brad Fuller says.... and I think 350
euro's is not cheap at all.... (!) So, since your name implies you make a living
doing audio work with linux
too, we should be charging you a fee when you ask something too?
He's not saying from now on he asks money for help, he's just offering a
service to people living near Rotterdam to have a regular help program, why
shouldn't he be able to ask money for it?
Isn't the goal of this list to help people to use linux audio
professionally?
> Next time Mr. Moors asks for help on this list
> I'll charge my usual consultancy fee.
>
> Ciao,
>
> --
> FA
>
> Laboratorio di Acustica ed Elettroacustica
> Parma, Italia
>
> O tu, che porte, correndo si ?
> E guerra e morte !
>
4:15 p.m.
On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 07:22:41PM +0200, Pieter Palmers wrote:
For comparison: in the government subsidized culture
center in my city
they offer an introductory Cubase course of 5x2.5hrs for 135eur. Do the
math. (Note that participants have the option to BUY Cubase -50%...).
350 Euro is around what I payed for 200 hours
of Portuguese evening classes.
:-) :-) :-) Beware of the Dutch ! They
even sell sand to the Arabs. :-) :-) :-)
Ciao,
--
FA
Laboratorio di Acustica ed Elettroacustica
Parma, Italia
O tu, che porte, correndo si ?
E guerra e morte !
4:46 p.m.
Hallo,
Fons Adriaensen hat gesagt: // Fons Adriaensen wrote:
On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 07:22:41PM +0200, Pieter
Palmers wrote:
Supply and demand: more people speak Portuguese than do Linux Audio. ;)
Ciao
--
Frank
For comparison: in the government subsidized
culture center in my city
they offer an introductory Cubase course of 5x2.5hrs for 135eur. Do the
math. (Note that participants have the option to BUY Cubase -50%...).
350 Euro is around what I payed for 200 hours
of Portuguese evening classes. 
4:48 p.m.
On Friday 12 September 2008 14:13:51 Fons Adriaensen wrote:
On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 07:22:41PM +0200, Pieter
Palmers wrote:
Back in the late 80s or early 90s, I used to give gratis computer classes at
my home on Saturday mornings. Often I would turn down boat outings and other
nice activities to teach the classes only to sit at home and have no one show
and no one call to cancel.
I decided that if I were ever to offer such gratis classes in the future,
students would have to pay a good amount for the course in advance and get
refunds for every class they attended and were on time for. By the end of the
course they would have received a full refund if they respected my time. If
not, I would have been paid for my time.
For comparison: in the government subsidized
culture center in my city
they offer an introductory Cubase course of 5x2.5hrs for 135eur. Do the
math. (Note that participants have the option to BUY Cubase -50%...).
350 Euro is around what I payed for 200 hours
of Portuguese evening classes.
:-) :-) :-) Beware of the Dutch ! They
even sell sand to the Arabs. :-) :-) :-)
Ciao,
all the best,
drew
6:13 p.m.
On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 02:47:57PM -0400, drew Roberts wrote:
Back in the late 80s or early 90s, I used to give
gratis computer classes at
my home on Saturday mornings. Often I would turn down boat outings and other
nice activities to teach the classes only to sit at home and have no one show
and no one call to cancel.
I decided that if I were ever to offer such gratis classes in the future,
students would have to pay a good amount for the course in advance and get
refunds for every class they attended and were on time for. By the end of the
course they would have received a full refund if they respected my time. If
not, I would have been paid for my time.
I absolutely agree with this.
--
FA
Laboratorio di Acustica ed Elettroacustica
Parma, Italia
O tu, che porte, correndo si ?
E guerra e morte !
13 Sep
13 Sep
10:38 a.m.
Fons Adriaensen wrote:
On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 07:22:41PM +0200, Pieter
Palmers wrote:
I can certainly believe that, but that's not
really a fair comparison.
I'm not trying to defend Mr Moors here, but just think things need some
perspective. IF he provides a high-quality course, with some added value
from the musical side, I think it's not too much. But with that price, I
think it's a hard sell, and I would expect a lot of content if I were to
pay it.
For comparison: in the government subsidized
culture center in my city
they offer an introductory Cubase course of 5x2.5hrs for 135eur. Do the
math. (Note that participants have the option to BUY Cubase -50%...).
350 Euro is around what I payed for 200 hours
of Portuguese evening classes.
:-) :-) :-) Beware of the Dutch ! They
even sell sand to the Arabs. :-) :-) :-)
Well, I'd say with De Nul and/or DEME in action, the Belgians are the
ones that sell the sand to the Arabs. And the best part of it is that
it's their own sand ;).
Greets,
Pieter
6:18 p.m.
I, on the other hand, think this is justifiable. It doesn't matter whether
you're training someone to breathe or fish, you're still training him - and
that's a service. A lot of courses on stupid things cost much higher.
I'd rather go for a course on Audio Engineering with Gratis software than
one with "industry-standard" software bundles. Software is only part of the
equation - hardware, knowledge, techniques, skill and talent play bigger
roles. Someone who can teach you those tricks of the trade deserves more
than just beer.
7:20 p.m.
Ray Rashif wrote:
I, on the other hand, think this is justifiable. It
doesn't matter
whether you're training someone to breathe or fish, you're still
training him - and that's a service. A lot of courses on stupid things
cost much higher.
I'd rather go for a course on Audio Engineering with Gratis software
than one with "industry-standard" software bundles. Software is only
part of the equation - hardware, knowledge, techniques, skill and talent
play bigger roles. Someone who can teach you those tricks of the trade
deserves more than just beer.
Don't get me wrong. I agree with you. To take an example from my
professional surroundings:
"""
REGISTRATION TO
OPERATIONAL AMPLIFIERS: Theory & Design
TUDelft, November 10-13, 2008
Please select your registration and payment method
Operational Amplifiers: Theory & Design
Registration UNTIL October 10, 2008 EUR 1,575.-
Operational Amplifiers: Theory & Design
Registration AFTER October 10, 2008 EUR 1,715.-
"""
(http://www.mead.ch/Registration.htm)
Nuf said...
Pieter
8:34 p.m.
On Sat, 13 Sep 2008 23:20:38 +0200
Pieter Palmers <pieterp(a)joow.be> wrote:
Ray Rashif wrote:
'kinnell!
And to think I learnt from Practical Wireless <mmmfty> <mmmf> years
ago :)
--
Will J Godfrey
http://www.musically.me.uk
I, on the other hand, think this is justifiable.
It doesn't matter
whether you're training someone to breathe or fish, you're still
training him - and that's a service. A lot of courses on stupid things
cost much higher.
I'd rather go for a course on Audio Engineering with Gratis software
than one with "industry-standard" software bundles. Software is only
part of the equation - hardware, knowledge, techniques, skill and talent
play bigger roles. Someone who can teach you those tricks of the trade
deserves more than just beer.
Don't get me wrong. I agree with you. To take an example from my
professional surroundings:
"""
REGISTRATION TO
OPERATIONAL AMPLIFIERS: Theory & Design
TUDelft, November 10-13, 2008
Please select your registration and payment method
Operational Amplifiers: Theory & Design
Registration UNTIL October 10, 2008 EUR 1,575.-
Operational Amplifiers: Theory & Design
Registration AFTER October 10, 2008 EUR 1,715.-
"""
(http://www.mead.ch/Registration.htm)
Nuf said...
Pieter 
14 Sep
14 Sep
1:15 a.m.
Pieter Palmers wrote:
Ray Rashif wrote:
And I just registered a few weeks ago for the IDEA 2008 conference in
Chicago, USA - http://ideaconference.org/register.html: US$450 + US$300
for the Pre-conference workshop. Of course, that's three days total.
We'll ignore the cost of airfare to, and hotels in, Chicago!!
--
David
gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
I, on the other hand, think this is justifiable.
It doesn't matter
whether you're training someone to breathe or fish, you're still
training him - and that's a service. A lot of courses on stupid things
cost much higher.
I'd rather go for a course on Audio Engineering with Gratis software
than one with "industry-standard" software bundles. Software is only
part of the equation - hardware, knowledge, techniques, skill and talent
play bigger roles. Someone who can teach you those tricks of the trade
deserves more than just beer.
Don't get me wrong. I agree with you. To take an example from my
professional surroundings:
"""
REGISTRATION TO
OPERATIONAL AMPLIFIERS: Theory & Design
TUDelft, November 10-13, 2008
Please select your registration and payment method
Operational Amplifiers: Theory & Design
Registration UNTIL October 10, 2008 EUR 1,575.-
Operational Amplifiers: Theory & Design
Registration AFTER October 10, 2008 EUR 1,715.-
"""
(http://www.mead.ch/Registration.htm)
Nuf said...
13 Sep
13 Sep
7:25 p.m.
On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 1:18 PM, Ray Rashif <schivmeister(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I, on the other hand, think this is justifiable. It
doesn't matter whether
you're training someone to breathe or fish, you're still training him - and
that's a service. A lot of courses on stupid things cost much higher.
I'd rather go for a course on Audio Engineering with Gratis software than
one with "industry-standard" software bundles. Software is only part of the
equation - hardware, knowledge, techniques, skill and talent play bigger
roles. Someone who can teach you those tricks of the trade deserves more
than just beer.
Agreed. Some of us have (what has become) intrinsic knowledge that we
take for granted and it's often hard to discern and separate it. We
live with it everyday. Good teachers have the ability to distill
complexity and present it in clear chunks for the rest of us to easily
digest. Teachers are worth their weight, and more, in gold, I'm in
awe of teachers.
--
Brad Fuller
www.bradfuller.com
7:49 p.m.
On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 02:25:03PM -0700, Brad Fuller wrote:
Good teachers have the ability to distill
complexity and present it in clear chunks for the rest of us to easily
digest.
That is indeed what a good teacher should be doing, and
little else. Unfortunately, in many countries teaching has
been streamlined by the MBA hords into the same type of
anonymous 'process' as e.g. a call center or a help desk,
and teachers spend a lot of their time just doing all
the administration for that. This sort of reducing things
to a well defined process of course allows lesser teachers
to do the job, at least as it is specified.
Ciao,
--
FA
Laboratorio di Acustica ed Elettroacustica
Parma, Italia
Wie der Mond heute Nacht aussieht !
Ist es nicht ein seltsames Bild ?
12 Sep
12 Sep
4:56 p.m.
On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 10:22 AM, Pieter Palmers <pieterp(a)joow.be> wrote:
The only issue I have with this POV is that product price is
determined by the market, not by one's cost. You clearly want to make
a profit if you're in business. But, if in business, and you can't
make a profit with a price that is marketable for your product, you
should look for other avenues of revenue.
350E is too high for me. ('course, I'd have to take a plane from CAL
so it would be REALLY expensive for me ;-) )
--
Brad Fuller
www.bradfuller.com
Grammostola Rosea wrote:
> Brad Fuller wrote:
>> Sheesss....
>> First, I think asking for money for what you do and asking for help
>> on this forum is ok. but 350E seems a lot.
>>
>> 2nd, Fons gives MUCH MORE than he takes. I learn loads from him. He's
>> a valuable resource on this and other forums!
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 8:18 AM, Tinco Andringa <mail(a)tinco.nl> wrote:
>>
>>> So, since your name implies you make a living doing audio work with linux
>>> too, we should be charging you a fee when you ask something too?
>>>
>>> He's not saying from now on he asks money for help, he's just
offering a
>>> service to people living near Rotterdam to have a regular help program, why
>>> shouldn't he be able to ask money for it?
>>>
>>> Isn't the goal of this list to help people to use linux audio
>>> professionally?
>>>
>>>
>>>> Next time Mr. Moors asks for help on this list
>>>> I'll charge my usual consultancy fee.
>>>>
>>>> Ciao,
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> FA
>>>>
>>>> Laboratorio di Acustica ed Elettroacustica
>>>> Parma, Italia
>>>>
>>>> O tu, che porte, correndo si ?
>>>> E guerra e morte !
>>>>
>>
>>
> First: we post our answers not at the top on the list is it?
Don't know, but yeah, I usually do on the bottom... just didn't that time.
But I agree
also with all what Brad Fuller says.... and I think 350
euro's is not cheap at all.... (!)
Depends...
350eur/person - 50eur/person cost (course material, venue, ...)
= 300eur/person
20ppl * 300eur = 6000eur
- 20% VAT = 4800eur
3hrs x 12 lessons = 36hrs
=> 133eur/hr
which, in Belgium, corresponds to a net wage of 40eur/hr
That's assuming that he doesn't spend time on the course material etc...
my experience with teaching is that you need at least one hour of prep
for each hour you teach.
so we're down to 20eur/hr. If he can manage to get 20people interested.
I agree that it's a lot of money, but if he plays by the (Belgian) tax
rules and provides a decent course, it's not that much. I don't know a
lot of experts that work for less than 20eur/hr, and that's without
taking any risk.
3:35 p.m.
On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 06:50:42PM +0200, Grammostola Rosea wrote:
When you give a course it cost you: time, traveling
costs
(Brussels > R'dam) organization, making a course book (and copy it?) and
linux audio usage, educational and presentation skills.... that could
deserve some money....
I agree. OTOH, one reason why the course is given in
English in the centre of the Dutch/Flemish language
region may be that a lot of the course material is
just copied from material available on the web.
In that case I just hope that Mr. Moors has all
the copyright issues sorted out.
But I agree also with all what Brad Fuller says....
and I think 350
euro's is not cheap at all.... (!)
That was also the reflection that triggered my response.
--
FA
Laboratorio di Acustica ed Elettroacustica
Parma, Italia
O tu, che porte, correndo si ?
E guerra e morte !
4:15 p.m.
Fons Adriaensen wrote:
On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 06:50:42PM +0200, Grammostola
Rosea wrote:
I don't think it feels good if someone makes an documentation and a
other person is selling it... Or making an app and someone is selling
it... (I have to dive more into the values of GNU and open source...).
But if you don't want that to happen you should take care of your
copyright specifications...
On the other hand if 'we as community' are to negative to this kind of
commercial courses, it will turn out against us... What I mean is this,
if someone in R'dam is able to make 25 people enthusiastic and capable
in using gnu/linux for audio and music creation, the community will
become larger, more people will use the free audio apps and there is a
change that this will improve the quality. Also the change for money
donation will become larger when more people uses the apps.... And I do
know people who gives courses linux for free etc. But didn't read about
or met a person who is giving a course linux audio for free... So maybe
people are more willing to give such a course if it gets payed...
And with the background of the 'teacher' of the course in R'dam (he was
a member of a relative well known band from belgium) I like to see this
course as a change and less as a threat...
When you give a course it cost you: time,
traveling costs
(Brussels > R'dam) organization, making a course book (and copy it?) and
linux audio usage, educational and presentation skills.... that could
deserve some money....
I agree. OTOH, one reason why the course is given in
English in the centre of the Dutch/Flemish language
region may be that a lot of the course material is
just copied from material available on the web.
In that case I just hope that Mr. Moors has all
the copyright issues sorted out.
4:53 p.m.
On Friday 12 September 2008 14:15:26 Grammostola Rosea wrote:
Fons Adriaensen wrote:
Please, if you think my software and art is good enough for you to take your
precious time and try and sell it, try to do so. (Within the bounds of the
licenses I use. GPL, BY-SA, etc.)
Naturally, I would "prefer" it if you would share the income from such
efforts, but that may be too "expensive" (in various ways) for you to do so I
rather not make such requirements.
The GPL certainly allows people to sell copies of others works. Hence Red Hat
and the rest being able to sell boxed software.
On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 06:50:42PM +0200,
Grammostola Rosea wrote:
I don't think it feels good if someone makes an documentation and a
other person is selling it... Or making an app and someone is selling
it... (I have to dive more into the values of GNU and open source...). When you give a course it cost you: time,
traveling costs
(Brussels > R'dam) organization, making a course book (and copy it?) and
linux audio usage, educational and presentation skills.... that could
deserve some money....
I agree. OTOH, one reason why the course is given in
English in the centre of the Dutch/Flemish language
region may be that a lot of the course material is
just copied from material available on the web.
In that case I just hope that Mr. Moors has all
the copyright issues sorted out. But if you don't want that to happen you should
take care of your
copyright specifications...
On the other hand if 'we as community' are to negative to this kind of
commercial courses, it will turn out against us... What I mean is this,
if someone in R'dam is able to make 25 people enthusiastic and capable
in using gnu/linux for audio and music creation, the community will
become larger, more people will use the free audio apps and there is a
change that this will improve the quality. Also the change for money
donation will become larger when more people uses the apps.... And I do
know people who gives courses linux for free etc. But didn't read about
or met a person who is giving a course linux audio for free... So maybe
people are more willing to give such a course if it gets payed...
And with the background of the 'teacher' of the course in R'dam (he was
a member of a relative well known band from belgium) I like to see this
course as a change and less as a threat...
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-user mailing list
Linux-audio-user(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-audio-user
!DSPAM:48cab1f8128711918013074!
5:14 p.m.
On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 06:50:42PM +0200, Grammostola Rosea wrote:
Really, what is the problem here?
If you think the course is too expensive ... don't go.
If you can do better ... offer your own course.
If you want to teach for free then do so; if you want to get paid, then
charge.
If you don't want your stuff copied off the web and used in a commercial
manner: don't post or affix a "not for commercial use" copyright. BTW,
the GNU licence doesn't support this so you'll have to use a different
one (correct me if I'm wrong).
Isn't the whole point of freedom the ability to do what you want to do?
I have donated a lot of software over the years ... and I've sold stuff
as well. But, one thing I will not do anymore is to play for free. Too
many times I've done just that for some good cause which doesn't have
any budget this year ... and then next year, when they do have some
money, they hire and pay someone from out-of-town. I'm sure the same
applies to teaching.
Please don't confuse freedom and free beer!
--
**** Listen to my CD at http://www.mellowood.ca/music/cedars ****
Bob van der Poel ** Wynndel, British Columbia, CANADA **
EMAIL: bob(a)mellowood.ca
WWW: http://www.mellowood.ca
When you give a course it cost you: time,
traveling costs
(Brussels > R'dam) organization, making a course book (and copy it?) and
linux audio usage, educational and presentation skills.... that could
deserve some money....
I agree. OTOH, one reason why the course is given in
English in the centre of the Dutch/Flemish language
region may be that a lot of the course material is
just copied from material available on the web.
In that case I just hope that Mr. Moors has all
the copyright issues sorted out.
5:32 p.m.
On Friday 12 September 2008 15:14:03 Bob van der Poel wrote:
On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 06:50:42PM +0200, Grammostola
Rosea wrote:
We all likely tend to develop our own rules of thumb over the years. I try not
do do any windows tech support gratis for friends and family anymore. I have
moved away from windows to avoid those problems and paid the price in various
ways to do so. I don't see why I should pay for them not doing so.
>> When you give a course it cost you: time,
traveling costs
>> (Brussels > R'dam) organization, making a course book (and copy it?)
>> and linux audio usage, educational and presentation skills.... that
>> could deserve some money....
>
> I agree. OTOH, one reason why the course is given in
> English in the centre of the Dutch/Flemish language
> region may be that a lot of the course material is
> just copied from material available on the web.
> In that case I just hope that Mr. Moors has all
> the copyright issues sorted out.
Really, what is the problem here?
If you think the course is too expensive ... don't go.
If you can do better ... offer your own course.
If you want to teach for free then do so; if you want to get paid, then
charge.
If you don't want your stuff copied off the web and used in a commercial
manner: don't post or affix a "not for commercial use" copyright. BTW,
the GNU licence doesn't support this so you'll have to use a different
one (correct me if I'm wrong).
Isn't the whole point of freedom the ability to do what you want to do?
I have donated a lot of software over the years ... and I've sold stuff
as well. But, one thing I will not do anymore is to play for free. Too
many times I've done just that for some good cause which doesn't have
any budget this year ... and then next year, when they do have some
money, they hire and pay someone from out-of-town. I'm sure the same
applies to teaching.
Please don't confuse freedom and free beer!
Indeed. Also, look at the speaking fees famous people get. I am sure a part of
the fee goes to being able to say you rubbed shoulders with that famous
person as opposed to the content of the speech you heard.
And as someone has already pointed out in another way, if this course is
successful, everyone now has a model to follow should they wish to do so.
Re playing for free for charities and the like. Perhaps do so with a bill that
comes due should they pay another act in the future? (If you value the
charity that is.)
all the best,
drew
13 Sep
13 Sep
3:27 a.m.
drew Roberts wrote:
On Friday 12 September 2008 15:14:03 Bob van der Poel
wrote:
No, that probably wouldn't go anywhere. Better to work out a *price*
with the charity (based on how much you might charge normally) - and
make it a donation and documented as such by the charity. Then you get a
tax benefit (at least in the US).
--
David
gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 06:50:42PM +0200,
Grammostola Rosea wrote:
We all likely tend to develop our own rules of thumb over the years. I try not
do do any windows tech support gratis for friends and family anymore. I have
moved away from windows to avoid those problems and paid the price in various
ways to do so. I don't see why I should pay for them not doing so.
>> When you give a course it cost you: time,
traveling costs
>> (Brussels > R'dam) organization, making a course book (and copy it?)
>> and linux audio usage, educational and presentation skills.... that
>> could deserve some money....
> I agree. OTOH, one reason why the course is given in
> English in the centre of the Dutch/Flemish language
> region may be that a lot of the course material is
> just copied from material available on the web.
> In that case I just hope that Mr. Moors has all
> the copyright issues sorted out.
Really, what is the problem here?
If you think the course is too expensive ... don't go.
If you can do better ... offer your own course.
If you want to teach for free then do so; if you want to get paid, then
charge.
If you don't want your stuff copied off the web and used in a commercial
manner: don't post or affix a "not for commercial use" copyright. BTW,
the GNU licence doesn't support this so you'll have to use a different
one (correct me if I'm wrong).
Isn't the whole point of freedom the ability to do what you want to do?
I have donated a lot of software over the years ... and I've sold stuff
as well. But, one thing I will not do anymore is to play for free. Too
many times I've done just that for some good cause which doesn't have
any budget this year ... and then next year, when they do have some
money, they hire and pay someone from out-of-town. I'm sure the same
applies to teaching. Please don't confuse freedom and free beer!
Indeed. Also, look at the speaking fees famous people get. I am sure a part of
the fee goes to being able to say you rubbed shoulders with that famous
person as opposed to the content of the speech you heard.
And as someone has already pointed out in another way, if this course is
successful, everyone now has a model to follow should they wish to do so.
Re playing for free for charities and the like. Perhaps do so with a bill that
comes due should they pay another act in the future? (If you value the
charity that is.)
10:29 a.m.
On Saturday 13 September 2008 01:27:37 david wrote:
drew Roberts wrote:
Got you. I would have no such tax incentives here though. However, doing it
the way you say would only give you the tax advantage and might still leave
you miffed next year when they actually pay out of town talent as in the
original example right? Or am I missing something key?
I can see how your idea could work for a person in a high tax bracket and who
charged at the high end of their normal rates who would normally give a
reduced rate to the charity.
all the best,
drew
On Friday 12 September 2008 15:14:03 Bob van der
Poel wrote:
No, that probably wouldn't go anywhere. Better to work out a *price*
with the charity (based on how much you might charge normally) - and
make it a donation and documented as such by the charity. Then you get a
tax benefit (at least in the US). On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 06:50:42PM +0200,
Grammostola Rosea wrote:
We all likely tend to develop our own rules of thumb over the years. I
try not do do any windows tech support gratis for friends and family
anymore. I have moved away from windows to avoid those problems and paid
the price in various ways to do so. I don't see why I should pay for them
not doing so.
>> When you give a course it cost you: time,
traveling costs
>> (Brussels > R'dam) organization, making a course book (and copy it?)
>> and linux audio usage, educational and presentation skills.... that
>> could deserve some money....
>
> I agree. OTOH, one reason why the course is given in
> English in the centre of the Dutch/Flemish language
> region may be that a lot of the course material is
> just copied from material available on the web.
> In that case I just hope that Mr. Moors has all
> the copyright issues sorted out.
Really, what is the problem here?
If you think the course is too expensive ... don't go.
If you can do better ... offer your own course.
If you want to teach for free then do so; if you want to get paid, then
charge.
If you don't want your stuff copied off the web and used in a commercial
manner: don't post or affix a "not for commercial use" copyright. BTW,
the GNU licence doesn't support this so you'll have to use a different
one (correct me if I'm wrong).
Isn't the whole point of freedom the ability to do what you want to do?
I have donated a lot of software over the years ... and I've sold stuff
as well. But, one thing I will not do anymore is to play for free. Too
many times I've done just that for some good cause which doesn't have
any budget this year ... and then next year, when they do have some
money, they hire and pay someone from out-of-town. I'm sure the same
applies to teaching. Please don't confuse freedom and free beer!
Indeed. Also, look at the speaking fees famous people get. I am sure a
part of the fee goes to being able to say you rubbed shoulders with that
famous person as opposed to the content of the speech you heard.
And as someone has already pointed out in another way, if this course is
successful, everyone now has a model to follow should they wish to do so.
Re playing for free for charities and the like. Perhaps do so with a bill
that comes due should they pay another act in the future? (If you value
the charity that is.)
14 Sep
14 Sep
1:31 a.m.
drew Roberts wrote:
On Saturday 13 September 2008 01:27:37 david wrote:
What - you mean you can't deduct charitable contributions wherever you live?
drew Roberts wrote:
Got you. I would have no such tax incentives here though. On Friday 12 September 2008 15:14:03 Bob van der
Poel wrote:
No, that probably wouldn't go anywhere. Better to work
out a *price*
with the charity (based on how much you might charge normally) - and
make it a donation and documented as such by the charity. Then you get a
tax benefit (at least in the US). On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 06:50:42PM +0200,
Grammostola Rosea wrote:
>>> When you give a course it cost you: time, traveling costs
>>> (Brussels > R'dam) organization, making a course book (and copy it?)
>>> and linux audio usage, educational and presentation skills.... that
>>> could deserve some money....
>> I agree. OTOH, one reason why the course is given in
>> English in the centre of the Dutch/Flemish language
>> region may be that a lot of the course material is
>> just copied from material available on the web.
>> In that case I just hope that Mr. Moors has all
>> the copyright issues sorted out.
Really, what is the problem here?
If you think the course is too expensive ... don't go.
If you can do better ... offer your own course.
If you want to teach for free then do so; if you want to get paid, then
charge.
If you don't want your stuff copied off the web and used in a commercial
manner: don't post or affix a "not for commercial use" copyright. BTW,
the GNU licence doesn't support this so you'll have to use a different
one (correct me if I'm wrong).
Isn't the whole point of freedom the ability to do what you want to do?
I have donated a lot of software over the years ... and I've sold stuff
as well. But, one thing I will not do anymore is to play for free. Too
many times I've done just that for some good cause which doesn't have
any budget this year ... and then next year, when they do have some
money, they hire and pay someone from out-of-town. I'm sure the same
applies to teaching.
We all likely tend to develop our own rules of thumb over the
years. I
try not do do any windows tech support gratis for friends and family
anymore. I have moved away from windows to avoid those problems and paid
the price in various ways to do so. I don't see why I should pay for them
not doing so.
Please don't confuse freedom and free beer!
Indeed. Also, look at the speaking fees famous people get. I am sure a
part of the fee goes to being able to say you rubbed shoulders with that
famous person as opposed to the content of the speech you heard.
And as someone has already pointed out in another way, if this course is
successful, everyone now has a model to follow should they wish to do so.
Re playing for free for charities and the like. Perhaps do so with a bill
that comes due should they pay another act in the future? (If you value
the charity that is.) However, doing it
the way you say would only give you the tax advantage and might still leave
you miffed next year when they actually pay out of town talent as in the
original example right? Or am I missing something key?
Well, it would seem to me that if you give them a good, successful
performance that they like - you've done the best you can to avoid being
replaced with out-of-town talent next year. I think you'll have also
laid a good foundation for getting paid next year. I've been to a number
of charitable/non-profit organization events that had the same band(s)
from year to year because their members really liked them.
Also - you performed before a good sized group of people. If they liked
your performance, you've increased the number of mouths available to
pass on good words about you to others they come in contact with.
Also - I wouldn't be surprised if an organization unwilling to pay the
piper this year won't be willing to pay the piper next year. So why
worry if they pick someone else? If you charged them for next year,
sounds like they might pick someone else who would do the show free, anyway.
I can see how your idea could work for a person in a
high tax bracket and who
charged at the high end of their normal rates who would normally give a
reduced rate to the charity.
I suppose it depends on where you live and how much you make - but worth
consulting your local tax advisors about, if you're performing for a living.
--
David
gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
19 Sep
19 Sep
3:22 p.m.
Hiho,
On Friday 12 September 2008 12:17:56 Brad Fuller wrote:
Sheesss....
First, I think asking for money for what you do and asking for help
on this forum is ok. but 350E seems a lot.
given the fact that cultural subsidies have been cut a lot in the Netherlands
this year (I believe WORM suffered too), and the price of real estate in
Rotterdam... (WORM is renting the location and has people around to manage
it, e.g. for drinks and other support). I don't think all of the money goes
directly to mr. Lievens' fees. Also assuming that he has to commute from
Brussels to Rotterdam for each class...
350 euro for 12 times 3 hours is less than 10 euros per hour...
I think that makes the course almost cheaper than a visit to a hollywood
movie, or to a sport's school. Not too unreasonable, I think...
I'm also guessing that the amount of students will be around 10, rather than
20...
Anyway, I think it is great that WORM is offering such a course and thereby
promoting Linux Audio, as well as building a local community for it...
sincerely,
Marije
12 Sep
12 Sep
3:17 p.m.
On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 05:18:35PM +0200, Tinco Andringa wrote:
So, since your name implies you make a living doing
audio work with linux
too, we should be charging you a fee when you ask something too?
I'm not charging people for things that others have
made available freely.
I use Linux for audio and acoustic research, just as
Mr. Moors is using it to make music. I suppose you
don't have any problems with that.
What I do with the code I write is my own business.
Most of it is given away for free. Some of it I have
to keep confidential.
Ciao,
--
FA
Laboratorio di Acustica ed Elettroacustica
Parma, Italia
O tu, che porte, correndo si ?
E guerra e morte !
5914
days inactive
5921
days old
linux-audio-user@lists.linuxaudio.org
27 comments
13 participants
participants (13)
-
Bob van der Poel -
Brad Fuller -
david -
drew Roberts -
Folderol -
Fons Adriaensen -
Frank Barknecht -
Grammostola Rosea -
katelyn -
nescivi -
Pieter Palmers -
Ray Rashif -
Tinco Andringa