24 Dec
2006
24 Dec
'06
6:53 a.m.
i remember that there was discussion because the current maintainer
wanted to pass on the LAU and LAD lists.
i just had a refreshing conversation with one of the newer generation
internet users and he had trouble understanding what a mailing list is.
and indeed, why not move to a forum? are there arguments against it?
--
Leonard Ritter
-- Freelance Art & Logic
-- http://www.leonard-ritter.com
24 Dec
24 Dec
8:28 a.m.
Leonard Ritter escribe:
and indeed, why not move to a forum? are there
arguments against it?
Forums are ok and yes, anybody who started using the Internet less
than eight years ago will find a forum a lot more comfortable.
If doing the forum please include a category for spanish users. I
propose myself as a moderator for that category. :)
Cordially, Ismael
--
Ismael Valladolid Torres
http://lamediahostia.blogspot.com/ m. +34679156321
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ivalladt j. ivalladt(a)jabberes.org
10:14 a.m.
On Sun, Dec 24, 2006 at 12:37:12PM +0100, Ismael Valladolid Torres wrote:
Forums are ok and yes, anybody who started using the Internet less
than eight years ago will find a forum a lot more comfortable.
No. I started using the internet less than eight years ago
and don't consider forums to be more comfortable. So much for
'anybody'.
Mailing lists allow me to subscribe to dozens of them and
manage everything within the same interface. No slow loading
pages, no unecessary formatting, new stuff just comes my way.
I delete posts I'm not interested in or done with -> clear view.
Using email to create forum accounts and notification emails
(on replies) should tell you something ...
There's an advantage to forums if you only want to check
them once in a while, irregularly. This point would be moot
if only the archives would appear more forum like ;)
--
Thorsten Wilms
Thorwil's Creature Illustrations:
http://www.printfection.com/thorwil
12:57 p.m.
Thorsten Wilms escribe:
No. I started using the internet less than eight years
ago
and don't consider forums to be more comfortable. So much for
'anybody'.
To me, forums aren't so much more comfortable either, I am talking of
the average spanish Internet user without a computer culture behind.
Mailing lists allow me to subscribe to dozens of them and
manage everything within the same interface. No slow loading
pages, no unecessary formatting, new stuff just comes my way.
Also to me, but I've needed to customize my email experience
extensively (fetchmail postconnect scripts to archive old mailing list
mail, procmail recipes to have everything organized, mutt keystroke
configuration so everything's at hand) and I doubt that for a today's
average user that is posible up to this point.
Using email to create forum accounts and notification
emails
(on replies) should tell you something ...
Yes, yes...
There's an advantage to forums if you only want to check
them once in a while, irregularly. This point would be moot
if only the archives would appear more forum like ;)
Wep, having mailing list archives more easily browsable would be
definitely a point!
Cordially, Ismael
--
Ismael Valladolid Torres
http://lamediahostia.blogspot.com/ m. +34679156321
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ivalladt j. ivalladt(a)jabberes.org
10:18 a.m.
Hallo,
Ismael Valladolid Torres hat gesagt: // Ismael Valladolid Torres wrote:
Leonard Ritter escribe:
That's something only people who started using the Internet less
than eight years ago may believe. ;)
Good mail software is much more comfortable than <textarea> for
everyone.
Ciao
--
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
and indeed, why not move to a forum? are there
arguments against it?
Forums are ok and yes, anybody who started using the Internet less
than eight years ago will find a forum a lot more comfortable.
12:59 p.m.
Frank Barknecht escribe:
Good mail software is much more comfortable than
<textarea> for
everyone.
As I wrote before, mutt is for me the most comfortable experience for
following mailing lists, but I've had to customize mutt/procmail/emacs
extensively so they act my way, and I'm afraid not so much people can
do this my way.
Of course, Thunderbird's ok if you follow up to 5 mailing lists. I
follow from 20 to 30 and mutt is mandatory.
Cordially, Ismael
--
Ismael Valladolid Torres
http://lamediahostia.blogspot.com/ m. +34679156321
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ivalladt j. ivalladt(a)jabberes.org
1:52 p.m.
Ismael Valladolid Torres wrote:
Of course, Thunderbird's ok if you follow up to 5 mailing lists. I
follow from 20 to 30 and mutt is mandatory.
I follow a few more and rss feeds plus normal mail with a few different
accounts and thunderbird works fine for me.
--
Patrick Shirkey - Boost Hardware Ltd.
Http://www.boosthardware.com
Http://lau.linuxaudio.org - The Linux Audio Users guide
========================================
"Anything your mind can see you can manifest physically, then it will
become reality" - Macka B
8:33 a.m.
and indeed, why not move to a forum? are there
arguments against it?
yes. Imagine you are participant of more than one mailing lists, e.g.
30. How will you handle them if they are all web based? Further I
dislike clicking through the slow PHPBB forums.
What I can imagine is a gateway between the mailing list and a web based
interface for it. Dunno if there already are solutions for such an
interface.
ce
10:26 a.m.
Christoph Eckert wrote:
What I can imagine is a gateway between the mailing
list and a web based
interface for it.
They all suck, hard!!!
Of the five mailing lists I was on that added a forum gateway, I
ended up unsubscribing from 4 of them because the forum traffic
drove the signal welll below the noise floor.
Erik
--
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
Erik de Castro Lopo
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
Virgins? What virgins? Its 72 raisins!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,2763,631357,00.html
8:48 a.m.
Hallo,
Leonard Ritter hat gesagt: // Leonard Ritter wrote:
i remember that there was discussion because the
current maintainer
wanted to pass on the LAU and LAD lists.
i just had a refreshing conversation with one of the newer generation
internet users and he had trouble understanding what a mailing list is.
It's "CC" (carbon copy) on steroids.
and indeed, why not move to a forum? are there
arguments against it?
There are many arguments against it.
But why bother, LAU already *is* a forum as well:
http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.linux.audio.users
Ciao
--
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
10:20 a.m.
Either way is fine with me. The problem with forums, is that if it is
on a slow server, or if it is badly organized from a user interface
perspective, it can be a nightmare to use.
Plus, you often end up with a lot of bickering about how it should
look/feel/behave. Also, *someone* ends up stuck with spending a lot of
time maintaining it, and I imagine it is much more costly from a
hosting perspective. PHPBB also tends to get borked by script-kiddies
out to prove their l33t-ness by vandalizing any site they can.
Mailing lists are nice, as you have a lot of flexibility as to how to
read/organize/archive-I personally like Gmail's ability to auto-label,
as well as organizing by discussion thread, and allowing really good
searchability, whereas a forum dictates the entire user experience for
you.
--Nick
On 12/24/06, Frank Barknecht <fbar(a)footils.org> wrote:
Hallo,
Leonard Ritter hat gesagt: // Leonard Ritter wrote:
i remember that there was discussion because the
current maintainer
wanted to pass on the LAU and LAD lists.
i just had a refreshing conversation with one of the newer generation
internet users and he had trouble understanding what a mailing list is.
It's "CC" (carbon copy) on steroids.
and indeed, why not move to a forum? are there
arguments against it?
There are many arguments against it.
But why bother, LAU already *is* a forum as well:
http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.linux.audio.users
Ciao
--
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
3:23 p.m.
On 12/24/06, Nick Scheer <nscheer(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Either way is fine with me. The problem with forums,
is that if it is
on a slow server, or if it is badly organized from a user interface
perspective, it can be a nightmare to use.
Plus, you often end up with a lot of bickering about how it should
look/feel/behave. Also, *someone* ends up stuck with spending a lot of
time maintaining it, and I imagine it is much more costly from a
hosting perspective. PHPBB also tends to get borked by script-kiddies
out to prove their l33t-ness by vandalizing any site they can.
Mailing lists are nice, as you have a lot of flexibility as to how to
read/organize/archive-I personally like Gmail's ability to auto-label,
as well as organizing by discussion thread, and allowing really good
searchability, whereas a forum dictates the entire user experience for
you.
--Nick
I second the Gmail recommendation! Auto-threading has made handling busy
lists so much easier that I am now in the process of moving all my mail
lists over to a gmail account. THIS is the way webmail should be!
PS If anyone wants a free gmail account I think I still have most of my
original 100 invites left
Happy Holidays!
Jon Hoskins
5:50 p.m.
Jon H wrote:
On 12/24/06, *Nick Scheer* <nscheer(a)gmail.com
<mailto:nscheer@gmail.com>> wrote:
Either way is fine with me. The problem with forums, is that if it is
on a slow server, or if it is badly organized from a user interface
perspective, it can be a nightmare to use.
Plus, you often end up with a lot of bickering about how it should
look/feel/behave. Also, *someone* ends up stuck with spending a lot of
time maintaining it, and I imagine it is much more costly from a
hosting perspective. PHPBB also tends to get borked by script-kiddies
out to prove their l33t-ness by vandalizing any site they can.
Mailing lists are nice, as you have a lot of flexibility as to how to
read/organize/archive-I personally like Gmail's ability to auto-label,
as well as organizing by discussion thread, and allowing really good
searchability, whereas a forum dictates the entire user experience for
you.
I second the Gmail recommendation! Auto-threading has made handling
busy lists so much easier that I am now in the process of moving all my
mail lists over to a gmail account. THIS is the way webmail should be!
PS If anyone wants a free gmail account I think I still have most of my
original 100 invites left
I have a GMail account. The interface is slow and clumsy compared to
Thunderbird, Pegasus or other real mail clients. Thunderbird does
threading very well.
I also know a number of people who will not have anything to do with
GMail because the justifiable (perhaps) privacy concerns.
--
David
gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
1:15 p.m.
Frank Barknecht escribe:
But why bother, LAU already *is* a forum as well:
http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.linux.audio.users
Why not? But forum users love avatars, private mailing systems,
animated signatures...
Cordially, Ismael
--
Ismael Valladolid Torres
http://lamediahostia.blogspot.com/ m. +34679156321
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ivalladt j. ivalladt(a)jabberes.org
1:41 p.m.
Frank Barknecht wrote:
Hey,
That's cute. When did it go up?
Cheers.
--
Patrick Shirkey - Boost Hardware Ltd.
Http://www.boosthardware.com
Http://lau.linuxaudio.org - The Linux Audio Users guide
========================================
"Anything your mind can see you can manifest physically, then it will
become reality" - Macka B
and indeed, why not move to a forum? are there
arguments against it?
There are many arguments against it.
But why bother, LAU already *is* a forum as well:
http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.linux.audio.users
Ciao 
1:43 p.m.
On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 13:00:46 +0100
Frank Barknecht <fbar(a)footils.org> a écrit:
But why bother, LAU already *is* a forum as well:
http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.linux.audio.users
Does one have to do the e-mail authorization for every message ?
Fröliche Weihnacht (how come this sounds like a cheesy song title ? ;-),
Al
9:23 a.m.
Leonard Ritter wrote:
and indeed, why not move to a forum? are there
arguments against it?
I don't want to log into some webpage to check a forum for new messages.
I subscribe to 20 or so mailinglists and all is automatically making
it's way into my mailbox.
The content/relevance/level of a forum should be unbelievably stellar
for me to join...
--
peace, love & harmony
Atte
http://www.atte.dk | quintet: http://www.anagrammer.dk
| compositions: http://www.atte.dk/compositions
1:18 p.m.
Atte André Jensen escribe:
I don't want to log into some webpage to check a
forum for new messages.
I subscribe to 20 or so mailinglists and all is automatically making
it's way into my mailbox.
Yes, again, forums are uncomfortable to any who needs to track 20 of
them, but lovely for any who uses one or two of them.
In spanish, anybody who likes musical creation using technology of any
kind has the www.hispasonic.com forum and doesn't need any other. It
has a Linux forum and I'm the moderator there.
Cordially, Ismael
--
Ismael Valladolid Torres
http://lamediahostia.blogspot.com/ m. +34679156321
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ivalladt j. ivalladt(a)jabberes.org
6:22 p.m.
Ismael Valladolid Torres wrote:
Yes, again, forums are uncomfortable to any who needs
to track 20 of
them, but lovely for any who uses one or two of them.
This leads me to believe that moving the list to a forum will loose alot
of old timers, and seasoned users (those that are ikely to follow 20+
lists) and embrace newbies instead. Not exactly what we want IMHO...
--
peace, love & harmony
Atte
http://www.atte.dk | quintet: http://www.anagrammer.dk
| compositions: http://www.atte.dk/compositions
25 Dec
25 Dec
1:39 a.m.
On 12/24/06, Atte André Jensen <atte.jensen(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Ismael Valladolid Torres wrote:
Hmmm... But then again that makes me reconsider my position... I prefer
lists for what we use them for and yet realize that forums have their places
too (in fact I'm a moderator on one).
Perhaps both IS the right way... keep the list so the "seasoned users" feel
at home and open a newbie friendly forum to help attract and also important
-keep- those stumbling into audio in linux.
Forums are where the new blood is and the new ideas. The more open and
inviting the linux audio community appears to those not already members the
better, IMHO. A forum can help consolidate information into more easily
browsable and indexed archives... a section for hardware related
discussions, one for software, one for beginners, one for dev, different
languages... I'm sure most of you have taken time away from the lists to
browse at least one or two forums in the recent past... you get the idea. I
suppose an official IRC channel wouldn't be a bad idea either for the "I
wanted the answer yesterday" crowd. Doesn't matter if it really works that
way or not, it's the presentation that it might that will make it attractive
to new members.
It's true that lists are a very powerful and efficient means of
communication but it's also true that to many newbies they seem a bit
antiquated and stuffy. Social networking is the new buzzword and a simple
list might not be enough to keep up with the changing times...
Just my thoughts.
Happy Holidays!
Jon Hoskins
Yes, again, forums are uncomfortable to any who
needs to track 20 of
them, but lovely for any who uses one or two of them.
This leads me to believe that moving the list to a forum will loose alot
of old timers, and seasoned users (those that are ikely to follow 20+
lists) and embrace newbies instead. Not exactly what we want IMHO...
--
peace, love & harmony
Atte
7:45 a.m.
Atte André Jensen escribe:
This leads me to believe that moving the list to a
forum will loose alot
of old timers, and seasoned users (those that are ikely to follow 20+
lists) and embrace newbies instead. Not exactly what we want IMHO...
Sure, we would lose old seasoned users and get a lot of newbies
instead. Yes, probably that's not what we want. Where to lead newbies,
then?
Cordially, Ismael
--
Ismael Valladolid Torres
http://lamediahostia.blogspot.com/ m. +34679156321
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ivalladt j. ivalladt(a)jabberes.org
8:38 a.m.
Ismael Valladolid Torres wrote:
Sure, we would lose old seasoned users and get a lot
of newbies
instead. Yes, probably that's not what we want. Where to lead newbies,
Here! Either by showing them how to use a mailinglist or looking for a
web based forum style frontend that's already been suggested. This would
allow both new comers and old timers to interact in the way they prefer...
--
peace, love & harmony
Atte
http://www.atte.dk | quintet: http://www.anagrammer.dk
| compositions: http://www.atte.dk/compositions
8:33 a.m.
Atte André Jensen <atte.jensen(a)gmail.com> writes:
those that are ikely to follow 20+ lists
I'm on 299 mailing lists, 23 newsgroups and 0 web forums;).
--
Esben Stien is b0ef@e s a
http://www. s t n m
irc://irc. b - i . e/%23contact
sip:b0ef@ e e
jid:b0ef@ n n
10:01 a.m.
Esben Stien escribe:
Atte André Jensen <atte.jensen(a)gmail.com>
writes:
Ok I'm on less than 100 mailing lists and on some web forums. Uncool
me! ;)
Cordially, Ismael
--
Ismael Valladolid Torres
http://lamediahostia.blogspot.com/ m. +34679156321
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ivalladt j. ivalladt(a)jabberes.org
those that are ikely to follow 20+ lists
I'm on 299 mailing lists, 23 newsgroups and 0 web forums;).
24 Dec
24 Dec
10:01 a.m.
Leonard Ritter wrote:
i just had a refreshing conversation with one of the
newer generation
internet users and he had trouble understanding what a mailing list is.
Point them here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mailing_list
and indeed, why not move to a forum? are there
arguments against it?
Mailing lists are good because they keep out people too dumb to
subscribe.
Erik
--
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
Erik de Castro Lopo
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
'Unix beats Windows' - says Microsoft!
http://blogs.zdnet.com/Murphy/index.php?p=459
1:20 p.m.
Erik de Castro Lopo escribe:
Mailing lists are good because they keep out people
too dumb to
subscribe.
I know what you mean but divism should be out of the game...
Cordially, Ismael
--
Ismael Valladolid Torres
http://lamediahostia.blogspot.com/ m. +34679156321
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ivalladt j. ivalladt(a)jabberes.org
1:35 p.m.
On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 11:26:52 +0100
Leonard Ritter <contact(a)leonard-ritter.com> a écrit:
and indeed, why not move to a forum? are there
arguments against it?
A mailing list provides much more efficient browsing and reading. I
find that with a mailing list you can actually browse subjects you
wouldn't with a web-based forum if only because of the time it takes
(ADSL) to load pages a scroll down messages.
If you can have both (why not ?) the you can keep the mailing while at
the same time provide the web-based forum access. What's being posted
on the forum gets into the mailing list and vice-versa. If this
mechanism does nto yet exists, we can make it. Let me if you need any
Perl 'glue' to do that ! ;-)
Al
2:41 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: move LAU to a forum?
I like forums, which is why I access LAU through gmane, which lets me
read it in my newsreader or over its web interface.
With GMANE in place I think we can leave things the way they are to keep
all the subtle advantages mailing lists have due to subtle benefits like
compatibility with old and obscure hardware, etc, but what we could do
is to emphasize that GMANE and especially its web interface is a good
option and maybe put a small newbie tutorial on how to use GMANE on the
linuxaudio.org or linuxsound.org pages.
Leonard Ritter schrieb:
i remember that there was discussion because the
current maintainer
wanted to pass on the LAU and LAD lists.
i just had a refreshing conversation with one of the newer generation
internet users and he had trouble understanding what a mailing list is.
and indeed, why not move to a forum? are there arguments against it?
3:25 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: move LAU to a forum?
A quick look at some of the successful forum/mailing list projects, for
instance Ubuntu, reveals that not only they have both, but also both methods
of communication are teeming with activity. There will always be those who
prefer forums, those who prefer mailing lists, and those who like/dislike
them the same. Hence, it seems to me that the real question is whether the
LAU/LAD community wishes to cater to as wide common user audience as
possible or do we simply want to expect everyone to adapt to our preferred
ways. Given the abysmal state of Linux audio documentation and overall
knowledge of audio platform on Linux in the user-land, I personally vote for
the former.
Ultimately, I am of the opinion that whatever we can do in a way that
actually is well maintained, will help end-users "dig" what we do. Hence,
IMHO it would be nice to see both available even if they are not necessarily
cross-linked so that posts appear in both places (although their
interconnectedness would be certainly a nice addition). For this reason,
consider this yet another offer/call to the LAU/LAD community for the
design/deployment of the forum.linuxaudio.org, volunteers wanted. If
interested please e-mail me.
FWIW, as far as the "speed" of forums is concerned, it largely depends on
what you use in combination on what kind of hardware you run. I've seen some
that are quite fast despite the often dubious eye-candy.
Best wishes,
Ico
5:16 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: move LAU to a forum?
Ivica Ico Bukvic wrote:
A quick look at some of the successful forum/mailing
list projects, for
instance Ubuntu, reveals that not only they have both, but also both methods
of communication are teeming with activity.
Teeming with activity but close to zero signal amongst the noise.
I keep on searching google for solutions to Ubuntu based problems.
All of the top hits on google point to UbuntuForums and when I
go there there is almost never an answer. The UbuntuForums are
absolutely chock full of "Me too" or people saying "that didn't
work for me".
FWIW, as far as the "speed" of forums is
concerned, it largely depends on
what you use in combination on what kind of hardware you run. I've seen some
that are quite fast despite the often dubious eye-candy.
Connecting to some web server on the other side of the planet
will always be slower than accessing mail that has been delivered
to me and is sitting on my hard drive.
Erik
--
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
Erik de Castro Lopo
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
"Death is perhaps too easy" -- Iqbal Sacranie in 1989 about
Salman Rushdie, author of "The Satanic Verses". Sacranie
received a knighthood in 2005 as the face of 'moderate'
British Islam. He has never disowned his earlier statement.
25 Dec
25 Dec
2:22 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: move LAU to a forum?
A quick look
at some of the successful forum/mailing list projects, for
instance Ubuntu, reveals that not only they have both, but also both
methods
of communication are teeming with activity.
Teeming with activity but close to zero signal amongst the noise.
I keep on searching google for solutions to Ubuntu based problems.
All of the top hits on google point to UbuntuForums and when I
go there there is almost never an answer. The UbuntuForums are
absolutely chock full of "Me too" or people saying "that didn't
work for me". FWIW, as far as the "speed" of forums
is concerned, it largely depends on
what you use in combination on what kind of hardware you run. I've seen
some
that are quite fast despite the often dubious
eye-candy.
Connecting to some web server on the other side of the planet
will always be slower than accessing mail that has been delivered
to me and is sitting on my hard drive.
5:50 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: move LAU to a forum?
ico(a)vt.edu wrote:
You still need to receive such e-mail either actively or passively. It does not
miracoulously teleport into your HD.
But the email only needs to arrive ONCE on my hard drive. It doesn't
need to be repeatedly delivered to me (along with mounds of HTML and
other formatting code) every time I go to read the next note in the
thread, then decide to go re-read the previous note in the thread.
--
David
gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
FWIW, as far as the "speed" of forums is
concerned, it largely depends on
what you use in combination on what kind of hardware you run. I've seen
some
that are quite fast despite the often dubious
eye-candy.
Connecting to some web server on the other side of the planet
will always be slower than accessing mail that has been delivered
to me and is sitting on my hard drive.
7:46 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: move LAU to a forum?
david escribe:
But the email only needs to arrive ONCE on my hard
drive. It doesn't
need to be repeatedly delivered to me (along with mounds of HTML and
other formatting code) every time I go to read the next note in the
thread, then decide to go re-read the previous note in the thread.
Have you ever heard of caches and proxies!?
Cordially, Ismael
--
Ismael Valladolid Torres
http://lamediahostia.blogspot.com/ m. +34679156321
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ivalladt j. ivalladt(a)jabberes.org
26 Dec
26 Dec
4:05 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: move LAU to a forum?
On Mon, 2006-12-25 at 12:45 +0100, Ismael Valladolid Torres wrote:
david escribe:
Amazingly email works out of the box without caches and proxies...
:-)
forum_idea--
(for the many reasons already in the thread)
-- Fernando
But the email only needs to arrive ONCE on my
hard drive. It doesn't
need to be repeatedly delivered to me (along with mounds of HTML and
other formatting code) every time I go to read the next note in the
thread, then decide to go re-read the previous note in the thread.
Have you ever heard of caches and proxies!? 
6:20 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: move LAU to a forum?
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Mon, Dec 25, 2006 at 08:16:25AM +1100, Erik de Castro Lopo wrote:
Ivica Ico Bukvic wrote:
I rely heavily upon mutt/procmail, but I consider it to be a hack. I don't want a
threaded discussion, I want rapid, high-quality access to authoritative answers to
technical questions, preferably in documentation where I can find it immediately without
having to wait for an answer or navigate down tons of blind alleys to get it. I know how
to filter a threaded discussion in order to find it, but it's still sub-optimal.
I will chime in here to suggest a "none of the above" type of answer:
Wiki along with forums + IRC.
For years I hated wikis, for the same reason I still dislike forums, which is the reason
you outline above: lots of noise and random flailing about, and few, if any, useful
answers. Of course a lot of mailing lists have the same problem, but I use mutt and
procmail to wade through the noise.
But then I discovered by far the best Wiki I've ever seen: the wiki for OpenWRT
(http://wiki.openwrt.org/)
It is well-maintained. No endless noise of "I tried that and it didn't work"
or apples-to-oranges comparisons or random stabs in the dark... all that crap gets deleted
or hashed out in the forums and/or IRC, and all that remains on the wiki is *the answer*
to how to do what you want to do, or why it's impossible. Their wiki has some great
maintainers ([:mbm:], nbd, florian, and others). The information is organized, clear,
complete, and correct.
They also have an excellent forum, which I say even though I hate forums. One way they
keep the S/N up on the forum is that [:mbm:] wrote a little hack to PHPBB which connected
it to a bot. The bot sits in the #openwrt on OPN, and whenever a new post comes in, the
"chatty cathy's" and the real developers with the deep knowledge-- both of
whom sit on IRC all the time-- are alerted immediately. Blind alleys get closed off nearly
immediately. Interesting topics or serious bugs get attention immediately. Thus, it has a
"push" component like email, which is sorely lacking from most forums.
I find OpenWRT to be the best-documented, highest-quality FOSS project I've ever used
or contributed to. It just works. I think the combination of great developers and clever
use of information tools are the reasons for its success.
- -ken
A quick look at some of the successful
forum/mailing list projects, for
instance Ubuntu, reveals that not only they have both, but also both methods
of communication are teeming with activity.
Teeming with activity but close to zero signal amongst the noise.
I keep on searching google for solutions to Ubuntu based problems.
All of the top hits on google point to UbuntuForums and when I
go there there is almost never an answer. The UbuntuForums are
absolutely chock full of "Me too" or people saying "that didn't
work for me".
FWIW, as far as the "speed" of forums
is concerned, it largely depends on
what you use in combination on what kind of hardware you run. I've seen some
that are quite fast despite the often dubious eye-candy.
Connecting to some web server on the other side of the planet
will always be slower than accessing mail that has been delivered
to me and is sitting on my hard drive.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)
iD8DBQFFkZ/je8HF+6xeOIcRAvygAKC/q82PUcHz7kD4tsc0IbOYKocMkwCghDGE
0p6/DX6WxoRyzq7P4DIRQtI=
=U+bM
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
7:59 p.m.
New subject: [Consortium] Re: [linux-audio-user] Re: move LAU to a forum?
- are alerted immediately. Blind alleys get closed off
nearly immediately.
Interesting topics or serious bugs get attention immediately. Thus, it has
a "push" component like email, which is sorely lacking from most forums.
Forums do have "subscribe to topic" option, so you can keep up with it via
e-mail without having to (re)visit the page.
A couple of clarifications:
My proposal with forum.linuxaudio.org is not to supersede lau/lad lists, but
rather complement. I see it beneficial that we offer as many tools and means
for end user to communicate with developers as possible. Naturally, not all
of the resources will be utilized by all of us, but this is where users will
provide the means of cross-pollinating these resources. For instance,
someone may post tons of questions on a mailing list regarding a particular
topic and once they learn enough about it, they may convey that info in
terse user friendly way to other end users via a forum post, a mailing list
e-mail, wiki contribution, or something else (this certainly is the case
with Ubuntu, for instance see following examples which are mostly OT when it
comes to sound but hopefully you get the point:
http://ubuntuguide.org/wiki/Dapper and
http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=131267). I think we need more
of this kind of documentation which will overshadow tons of dead-ends and
stale how-tos that are readily available via Google search.
Yes, forums have problems, but IMHO mailing lists are no better. They simply
have a different set of advantages and disadvantages. For instance, on a
forum you can "sticky" important topics so that they always show on top.
This helps minimize noise which is also present at lau/lad lists (i.e.
endless asoundrc questions we get which arguably persist due to poor
documentation, but in this respect a forum provides that documentation-like
navigation mailings lists miss; while searching mailing lists for asoundrc
stuff may be easy, provided that you know about asoundrc in the first place,
if a newcomer searches for "pcmcia sound" because they are having problems
with hdsp but are not aware of the lspci/setpci and hence unable to include
that in their search to get the right results, will yield tons of bad hits,
whereas on a forum you could have a forum topic "Soundcards" and a sub-forum
"Pcmcia" which would make it much easier to navigate and/or locate what you
are seeking).
Another advantage of forums over mailing lists is that one can delete
old/obsolete/defunct how-tos, topics, threads, and posts. Mailing list with
time simply introduces more noise as google stores old posts, making google
searches decreasingly accurate. In that respect a forum is something between
a mailing list and a wiki.
It is also worth considering that maintenance does not have to be demanding
if we attract the right group of newcomers who wish to contribute by
maintaining specific topics and/or threads which makes the whole thing a lot
more manageable.
So, in short, it would be IMHO nice to complement
lad/lau/consortium/alsa/etc. lists with a forum and the docs wiki. We
already do have:
1) mailing lists (LAA/LAU/LAD/Consortium/Alsa/etc.)
2) Linuxaudio IRC channel reserved and maintained (see consortium website
for more info)
3) Free hosting and webspace offered via Consortium for
doc/wiki/forums/whatever
The lingering question is who will volunteer to help with the roll-out of
the proposed technologies.
Best wishes,
Ico
8:33 p.m.
New subject: [Consortium] Re: [linux-audio-user] Re: move LAU to a forum?
Ivica Ico Bukvic wrote:
<snip>
Someone *please* hammer a stake through the heart of this thread
before I'm forced to /dev/null it.
Erik
--
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
Erik de Castro Lopo
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
"Unix and C are the ultimate computer viruses." -- Richard P Gabriel
31 Dec
31 Dec
5:16 a.m.
New subject: [Consortium] Re: [linux-audio-user] Re: move LAU to a forum?
What about a hybrid setup like others are using, this one for example?
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=14333
On 12/26/06, Erik de Castro Lopo <mle+la(a)mega-nerd.com> wrote:
Ivica Ico Bukvic wrote:
<snip>
Someone *please* hammer a stake through the heart of this thread
before I'm forced to /dev/null it.
Erik
--
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
Erik de Castro Lopo
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
"Unix and C are the ultimate computer viruses." -- Richard P Gabriel
24 Dec
24 Dec
5:23 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: move LAU to a forum?
Ivica Ico Bukvic wrote:
A quick look at some of the successful forum/mailing
list projects, for
instance Ubuntu, reveals that not only they have both, but also both methods
of communication are teeming with activity.
Teeming with activity but close to zero signal amongst the noise.
I keep on searching google for solutions to Ubuntu based problems.
All of the top hits on google point to UbuntuForums and when I
go there there is almost never an answer. The UbuntuForums are
absolutely chock full of "Me too" or people saying "that didn't
work for me".
FWIW, as far as the "speed" of forums is
concerned, it largely depends on
what you use in combination on what kind of hardware you run. I've seen some
that are quite fast despite the often dubious eye-candy.
Connecting to some web server on the other side of the planet
will always be slower than accessing mail that has been delivered
to me and is sitting on my hard drive.
Erik
--
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
Erik de Castro Lopo
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
"Death is perhaps too easy" -- Iqbal Sacranie in 1989 about
Salman Rushdie, author of "The Satanic Verses". Sacranie
received a knighthood in 2005 as the face of 'moderate'
British Islam. He has never disowned his earlier statement.
--
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
Erik de Castro Lopo
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
"Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become
dominant. The Koran should be the highest authority in America, and Islam
the only accepted religion on earth." -- Omar Ahmad, board chairman of
Council of American Islamic Relations to an islamic audience in 1998.
5:54 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: move LAU to a forum?
Ivica Ico Bukvic wrote:
FWIW, as far as the "speed" of forums is
concerned, it largely depends on
what you use in combination on what kind of hardware you run. I've seen some
that are quite fast despite the often dubious eye-candy.
The speed of a forum can never match the speed of a mail client running
on your local machine. The forum has to support multiple users, throw
HTML etc code up along with the content, etc. The forum has to contend
with bandwidth problems.
--
David
gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
5:43 p.m.
Leonard Ritter wrote:
i remember that there was discussion because the
current maintainer
wanted to pass on the LAU and LAD lists.
i just had a refreshing conversation with one of the newer generation
internet users and he had trouble understanding what a mailing list is.
and indeed, why not move to a forum? are there arguments against it?
Yes. To read things on a forum requires me to go to the forum, login,
blah blah blah, and use some clumsy web interface to read and perhaps
respond. Versus having the messages arrive in my mailbox on their own
where I can happily read them in a real mail client.
I am on some lists where their only interface is a web forum. I almost
never read them, and rarely participate.
--
David
gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
25 Dec
25 Dec
4:22 a.m.
söndag 24 december 2006 11:26 skrev Leonard Ritter:
i remember that there was discussion because the
current maintainer
wanted to pass on the LAU and LAD lists.
i just had a refreshing conversation with one of the newer generation
internet users and he had trouble understanding what a mailing list is.
and indeed, why not move to a forum? are there arguments against it?
Nope. Don't like the idea. I've been subscribed to some maillinglists for
16-17 years now. I've been on some forums but they are to tideous to work
with so I always drop out. I definitely vote no to move to forum-based LAU.
If theres a way to extend it to a forum, like gmane extends a list to NEWS I
have no problem with it. But please keep the maillinglist as the first
choice.
/bengan
7:31 a.m.
allright. just checkin.
i agree in all points. gmane is a good solution.
Am Montag, den 25.12.2006, 09:22 +0100 schrieb Bengt Gördén:
söndag 24 december 2006 11:26 skrev Leonard Ritter:
--
Leonard Ritter
-- Freelance Art & Logic
-- http://www.leonard-ritter.com
i remember that there was discussion because the
current maintainer
wanted to pass on the LAU and LAD lists.
i just had a refreshing conversation with one of the newer generation
internet users and he had trouble understanding what a mailing list is.
and indeed, why not move to a forum? are there arguments against it?
Nope. Don't like the idea. I've been subscribed to some maillinglists for
16-17 years now. I've been on some forums but they are to tideous to work
with so I always drop out. I definitely vote no to move to forum-based LAU.
If theres a way to extend it to a forum, like gmane extends a list to NEWS I
have no problem with it. But please keep the maillinglist as the first
choice.
/bengan
7:47 a.m.
Bengt Gördén escribe:
Nope. Don't like the idea. I've been
subscribed to some maillinglists for
16-17 years now. I've been on some forums but they are to tideous to work
with so I always drop out. I definitely vote no to move to forum-based LAU.
If theres a way to extend it to a forum, like gmane extends a list to NEWS I
have no problem with it. But please keep the maillinglist as the first
choice.
Why not creating a forum for newbies and let users of the mailing list
go over there from time to time to give them support?
Cordially, Ismael
--
Ismael Valladolid Torres
http://lamediahostia.blogspot.com/ m. +34679156321
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ivalladt j. ivalladt(a)jabberes.org
4:17 p.m.
On 12/24/06, Leonard Ritter <contact(a)leonard-ritter.com> wrote:
i remember that there was discussion because the
current maintainer
wanted to pass on the LAU and LAD lists.
Yes, they passed on the list _to a new maintainter_. If this list (as
well as LAD and LAA) where to be unmaintained... well... you'd notice
it ;-)
i just had a refreshing conversation with one of the
newer generation
internet users and he had trouble understanding what a mailing list is.
and indeed, why not move to a forum? are there arguments against it?
Most of the arguments against have already been given. Though, I have
read with a lot of interest this thread and noted a few ideas that are
interesting. The forum+mailing list combo, in my opinion already
exists : http://music.columbia.edu/pipermail/linux-audio-user/
You will tell me that messages can be read, but that you can't post
right ? well... You _can_ post. Even if you are not a member, if you
post to the list, your message will be moderated (by me or another
moderator) and will appear on the list, and on the archives.
Some of you will say that the archives are not user friendly enough...
right. Then join me on the list maintainment, and let's work on a nice
archive interface. Ico proposed to have a forum.linuxaudio.org ? ok,
then let's host the archives there with a brand new interface and a
theme with linuxaudio's colors.
__________________
Marc-Olivier Barre,
Markinoko.
26 Dec
26 Dec
2:13 p.m.
On Sunday 24 December 2006 05:26, Leonard Ritter wrote:
and indeed, why not move to a forum? are there
arguments
against it?
My arguments against it are principally
(1) archiving (there are as many archives of the current list as
there are users who don't delete their mail regularly)
(2) search (no web forum software's search is as full-featured as
a mail client's search, in fact they're usually very pathetic,
with restrictions like not searching for any word less than 4
letters long or not being able to search for phrases, and Google
doesn't index web fora as aggressively as it does blogs)
and
(3) the "push" advantage (people are more likely to contribute to
a list where they're constantly getting mail and see something
that piques their interest, than something they have to visit
regularly to keep up with new topics)
Someday, someone will come out with a mail connector to phpBB or
one of the others that is actually worth something, but in the
meantime web forums are a great way to attract newbies at the
expense of deeper usability.
Many communities have a web forum for the people out surfing the
web looking for answers, and then a separate mailing list for
people who actually care enough to sign up for something. I
guess I like that approach best. But if the list were actually
threatened with being shut down, I'd try to find a way to
provide hosting for it in its current form. I don't have much
time right now for making music or non-work coding, but getting
LAU in my inbox lets me feel connected at least.
Rob
6:10 p.m.
> and indeed, why not move to a forum? are there
arguments
> against it?
My arguments against it are principally
<CUT>
(3) the "push" advantage (people are more
likely to contribute to
a list where they're constantly getting mail and see something
that piques their interest, than something they have to visit
regularly to keep up with new topics)
Rob
Yea, this is a big one. I was going to post with this point also. I just
know I would eventually just not read mail if it wasn't there everyday
saying "read me... read me". I would just say "I'll go look at the web
forum today" and would just end up doing other things and never get to
it. And you know how it goes... it's night time by then and you say,
"darn, forgot to look today... but I need to go to bed..."
Rocco
6333
days inactive
6340
days old
linux-audio-user@lists.linuxaudio.org
46 comments
23 participants
participants (23)
-
Atte André Jensen -
Bengt Gördén -
Carlo Capocasa -
Christoph Eckert -
david -
Erik de Castro Lopo -
Erik de Castro Lopo -
Esben Stien -
Fernando Lopez-Lezcano -
Frank Barknecht -
ico＠vt.edu -
Ismael Valladolid Torres -
Ivica Ico Bukvic
-
Jon H -
Ken Restivo -
lanas -
Leonard Ritter -
linuxmedia4＠netscape.net -
Marc-Olivier Barre -
Nick Scheer -
Patrick Shirkey -
Rob -
Thorsten Wilms