12 Oct
2002
12 Oct
'02
11:47 a.m.
A technical but mostly non-linux friend was asking me about where Ogg
Vorbis is relative to MP3's, given the current status of MP3 encoding
software.
I did a quick test of making an ogg from a wav, and my naive version
produced:
[lconrad@tuba renfaire]$ ls -l hercules*
-rw-rw-r-- 1 lconrad lconrad 4526080 Aug 18 14:14 hercules2.mp3
-rw-rw-r-- 1 lconrad lconrad 12220015 Sep 3 12:30 hercules2.ogg
-rw-rw-r-- 1 lconrad lconrad 49956104 Aug 18 14:09 hercules2.wav
I used ecasound to do the encoding, but what my ecasoundrc says it did
is:
ext-ogg-output-cmd = oggenc --raw -o %f
oggenc is:
[lconrad@tuba renfaire]$ oggenc -v
OggEnc v0.8 (libvorbis rc2)
So my question is, is there a way to get the ogg file down closer to
the size of the mp3 file?
--
Laura (mailto:lconrad@laymusic.org , http://www.laymusic.org/ )
(617) 661-8097 fax: (801) 365-6574
233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139
12 Oct
12 Oct
11:59 a.m.
Laura,
You might also ask how to get the mp3 file UP to the size of the ogg
file? ;-)
mp3 has a lot of options for compression, and it's very 'lossy' in the
sense that lots of information is gone after encoding. Many, if not most
default mp3 encoders will put a low pass filter in at about 16KHz, killing
the very high end, and you can choose to encode at different bit rates also.
In my experience with mp3, you actually can make very high quality mp3
encodings if you study all the options and do some listening to what they
do.
I have no experience with ogg encoders, but my guess would be that you
want to reduce bit rate first, if that's an option, and maybe try variable
bit rate encoding if it is supported. You will, however, certainly hear the
difference.
I'd encourage you to also look at a spectrum analyzer of some sort to
compare what is getting encoded and played back, just to see the difference
visually as well as using your ears.
Good luck,
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: linux-audio-user-admin(a)music.columbia.edu
[mailto:linux-audio-user-admin@music.columbia.edu]On Behalf Of Laura
Conrad
Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 6:44 AM
To: linux-audio-user(a)music.columbia.edu
Subject: [linux-audio-user] How do you make an ogg?
A technical but mostly non-linux friend was asking me about where Ogg
Vorbis is relative to MP3's, given the current status of MP3 encoding
software.
I did a quick test of making an ogg from a wav, and my naive version
produced:
[lconrad@tuba renfaire]$ ls -l hercules*
-rw-rw-r-- 1 lconrad lconrad 4526080 Aug 18 14:14 hercules2.mp3
-rw-rw-r-- 1 lconrad lconrad 12220015 Sep 3 12:30 hercules2.ogg
-rw-rw-r-- 1 lconrad lconrad 49956104 Aug 18 14:09 hercules2.wav
I used ecasound to do the encoding, but what my ecasoundrc says it did
is:
ext-ogg-output-cmd = oggenc --raw -o %f
oggenc is:
[lconrad@tuba renfaire]$ oggenc -v
OggEnc v0.8 (libvorbis rc2)
So my question is, is there a way to get the ogg file down closer to
the size of the mp3 file?
--
Laura (mailto:lconrad@laymusic.org , http://www.laymusic.org/ )
(617) 661-8097 fax: (801) 365-6574
233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139
12:42 p.m.
>>>> "Mark" == Mark Knecht
<markknecht(a)attbi.com> writes:
Mark> You might also ask how to get the mp3 file UP to the size of the ogg
Mark> file? ;-)
I could, but for this particular purpose small size is more important
figure of merit than high quality. The major use of these files is to
put up rehearsal recordings the day after rehearsal, so that members
of the group can listen and hear what they need to practice. Probably
everybody is using their computer speakers to listen to them. My
computer speakers are better than average, and I can *just* hear the
difference between the MP3 quality and the .wav quality if I listen
very hard. And it isn't an important difference in terms of hearing
what I need to practice.
Mark> I have no experience with ogg encoders, but my guess would be that you
Mark> want to reduce bit rate first, if that's an option, and maybe try
variable
Mark> bit rate encoding if it is supported. You will, however, certainly hear the
Mark> difference.
OK, setting various bitrates, I get:
[lconrad@tuba renfaire]$ ls -l hercules*
-rw-rw-r-- 1 lconrad lconrad 4411392 Aug 17 09:51 hercules1.mp3
-rw-rw-r-- 1 lconrad lconrad 48685100 Aug 17 09:01 hercules1.wav
-rw-rw-r-- 1 lconrad lconrad 12222427 Oct 12 10:30 hercules2-b128.ogg
-rw-rw-r-- 1 lconrad lconrad 7612630 Oct 12 10:27 hercules2-b64.ogg
-rw-rw-r-- 1 lconrad lconrad 49956480 Aug 18 16:36 hercules2.cdr
-rw-rw-r-- 1 lconrad lconrad 12222427 Oct 12 10:17 hercules2-M128.ogg
-rw-rw-r-- 1 lconrad lconrad 12222427 Oct 12 10:24 hercules2-M64.ogg
-rw-rw-r-- 1 lconrad lconrad 4526080 Aug 18 14:14 hercules2.mp3
-rw-rw-r-- 1 lconrad lconrad 12220015 Sep 3 12:30 hercules2.ogg
-rw-rw-r-- 1 lconrad lconrad 49956104 Aug 18 14:09 hercules2.wav
(There's an example of using -M as the maximum bitrate, but the -M
option isn't listed, and doesn't seem to have any effect.)
hercules2-b64.ogg is usable, although I don't think it's as high
quality as the mp3, which is encoded with "lame -b 128". And it's
still twice as big. Is this something that will change with newer
versions of oggenc?
--
Laura (mailto:lconrad@laymusic.org , http://www.laymusic.org/ )
(617) 661-8097 fax: (801) 365-6574
233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139
12:21 p.m.
On 12 Oct 2002 09:44:28 -0400
Laura Conrad <lconrad(a)laymusic.org> wrote:
A technical but mostly non-linux friend was asking me about where Ogg
Vorbis is relative to MP3's, given the current status of MP3 encoding
software.
I did a quick test of making an ogg from a wav, and my naive version
produced:
[lconrad@tuba renfaire]$ ls -l hercules*
-rw-rw-r-- 1 lconrad lconrad 4526080 Aug 18 14:14 hercules2.mp3
-rw-rw-r-- 1 lconrad lconrad 12220015 Sep 3 12:30 hercules2.ogg
-rw-rw-r-- 1 lconrad lconrad 49956104 Aug 18 14:09 hercules2.wav
I used ecasound to do the encoding, but what my ecasoundrc says it did
is:
ext-ogg-output-cmd = oggenc --raw -o %f
oggenc is:
[lconrad@tuba renfaire]$ oggenc -v
OggEnc v0.8 (libvorbis rc2)
So my question is, is there a way to get the ogg file down closer to
the size of the mp3 file?
Hi Laura,
What might give you a better comparison would be to look at the bit
rates that the mp3/oggs are encoded at. Im not sure on the exact figures
for relative file sizes of mp3s/oggs, but you should definately be able
to get a 'good' sounding ogg that has a smaller file size than that.
for example, here is a comparison of an ogg and an mp3 on my box:
-rw-rw-r-- 1 jordan jordan 5358446 Apr 22 15:08 parse_error.mp3
-rw-rw-r-- 1 jordan jordan 3630351 May 1 13:31 parse_error.ogg
here, i have encoded the mp3 at 192 kBits, 44.1 kHz, Stereo, whilst the
ogg is 128 kBits, 44.1 kHz, Stereo.
I haven't used ecasound to produce oggs, but it looks likes it makes use
of oggenc , which is what i used. You can use the -b option to oggenc to
set the bitrate of the ogg you are producing, so lets say you had a wav
called music.wav, you could do something like:
oggenc -b 120 music.wav
which would encode you an ogg called music.ogg at 120kBits.
hope this helps.
jordan.
12:44 p.m.
And a related question, how do you tell your windows or mac using
friends to play an ogg?
--
Laura (mailto:lconrad@laymusic.org , http://www.laymusic.org/ )
(617) 661-8097 fax: (801) 365-6574
233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139
1:32 p.m.
Laura Conrad wrote:
And a related question, how do you tell your windows
or mac using
friends to play an ogg?
there are plugins available for a lot of the main audio players. Macamp
and winamp are two that I know of that support ogg.
I always encode at 256 bit and have no problems with files that large. A
5 minute wav will compress to around 4 MB. That is comparable to mp3
compession AFAIK.
oggenc -b 256 x.wav
--
Patrick Shirkey - Boost Hardware Ltd.
For the discerning hardware connoisseur
Http://www.boosthardware.com
Http://www.djcj.org - The Linux Audio Users guide
========================================
"Um...symbol_get and symbol_put... They're
kindof like does anyone remember like get_symbol
and put_symbol I think we used to have..."
- Rusty Russell in his talk on the module subsystem
1 p.m.
Hi,
Laura Conrad hat gesagt: // Laura Conrad wrote:
A technical but mostly non-linux friend was asking me
about where Ogg
Vorbis is relative to MP3's, given the current status of MP3 encoding
software.
I did a quick test of making an ogg from a wav, and my naive version
produced:
[lconrad@tuba renfaire]$ ls -l hercules*
-rw-rw-r-- 1 lconrad lconrad 4526080 Aug 18 14:14 hercules2.mp3
-rw-rw-r-- 1 lconrad lconrad 12220015 Sep 3 12:30 hercules2.ogg
-rw-rw-r-- 1 lconrad lconrad 49956104 Aug 18 14:09 hercules2.wav
I used ecasound to do the encoding, but what my ecasoundrc says it did
is:
ext-ogg-output-cmd = oggenc --raw -o %f
oggenc is:
[lconrad@tuba renfaire]$ oggenc -v
OggEnc v0.8 (libvorbis rc2)
oggenc 1.0 is out. You maybe should upgrade.
So my question is, is there a way to get the ogg file
down closer to
the size of the mp3 file?
You can encode ogg files in various ways:
1) Quality 0-10 (--quality)
gives you a file with a variable bitrate. The actual filesize is a bit
difficult to predict, but if you experiment, this is the preferred way
of ogg-encoding.
2) min-max (--max-bitrate --min-bitrate)
here you specify borders for the bitrate. This way, your file will
never be bigger than max-bitrate * duration and never be smaller than
min-bitrate * duration
With these options you could get a very small oggfile :)
3) Bitrate (--bitrate)
This is a variable bitrate like 1) but should have a bitrate around
the value you have chosen. Although this is very much like you would
use a mp3-encoder like lame or gogo, it is not recommended by the
Ogg-Team: "This uses the bitrate management engine, and is not
recommended for most users." In my observations ogg-files encoded with
--bitrate do not keep this bitrate very well, they use bitrates much
lower. So the quality isn't as good as I expected from the bitrate
option. But YMMV.
So, as with all lossy encoders, you will have to find a compromise
between filesize and audio quality.
ciao
--
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
2:05 p.m.
On Sat, Oct 12, 2002 at 04:58:00PM +0200, Frank Barknecht wrote:
No maybes about it - Definately upgrade your libvorbis, libogg,
libao, and vorbis-tools packaes.
0.8 is so old, I don't think it supports the final bitstream standard.
Not to mention *huge* improvements in the quality of the encoder.
The scale actually goes from -1 to 10. The reason for this is pretty
funny - people were complaining that -q 0 was too good!! And it's true!
Just for kicks try it at -q 0 and then look at the file size - it's
amazing.
The scale on the quality rating is really misleading. If you have
"golden ears" you'll want to use -q 6 because of some tricks the encoder
does at less than 6. If you have average to musician's ears, you'll
probably throughly enjoy -q 3.
I've got slightly above average hearing, from years of music. I encode
at -q 3, and actually seriously considered encoding my stuff at -q 1 for
the disk space savings.
[lconrad@tuba
renfaire]$ oggenc -v
OggEnc v0.8 (libvorbis rc2)
oggenc 1.0 is out. You maybe should upgrade. So my question
is, is there a way to get the ogg file down closer to
the size of the mp3 file?
You can encode ogg files in various ways:
1) Quality 0-10 (--quality)
gives you a file with a variable bitrate. The actual filesize is a bit
difficult to predict, but if you experiment, this is the preferred way
of ogg-encoding. 3) Bitrate (--bitrate)
[snip]
Not only does this produce lower quality files, it tends to produce
*bigger* files, in my experience. It looks like Vorbis really needs to
go out of its way to honor your request for some fixed bitrate.
--
Ross Vandegrift
ross(a)willow.seitz.com
A Pope has a Water Cannon. It is a Water Cannon.
He fires Holy-Water from it. It is a Holy-Water Cannon.
He Blesses it. It is a Holy Holy-Water Cannon.
He Blesses the Hell out of it. It is a Wholly Holy Holy-Water Cannon.
He has it pierced. It is a Holey Wholly Holy Holy-Water Cannon.
Batman and Robin arrive. He shoots them.
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linux-audio-user@lists.linuxaudio.org
7 comments
6 participants
participants (6)
-
Frank Barknecht -
jordan muscott -
Laura Conrad -
Mark Knecht -
Patrick Shirkey -
Ross Vandegrift