14 Oct
2003
14 Oct
'03
11:45 a.m.
The free sampled piano is here:
http://theremin.music.uiowa.edu/MIS.html (click on the Piano link)
It is quite large, abot 1.5GB (each note sampled individually in 3
velocities: pp, mf, ff).
I do not know how good the quality of this piano is, Steve Harris
hacked together a small player and posted some mp3s that were rendered
from a MIDI file driving his application.
To me it does not sound that great, perhaps you need to tune
the velocity splits to make it sound well.
Anyway this sampleset is really large and can hardly fit into RAM.
SF2 was not created to be streamed from disk thus I suggest the following.
We of the linuxsampler team made significant progress in .GIG playback
thanks to the wonderful work done by Christian S.
He actually wrote libgig which is able to parse and load .GIG file
supporting all the articulation stuff (layering, key/velocity switching,
dimensions etc).
see our new webpage (thanks Marek ;-) )
http://www.linuxsampler.org
(the new code is not online yet, because Christian and I are fixing bugs
and optimizing the streaming).
I cannot make forecasts when full GIG playback will be done, but shortly
(1-2 weeks) we will release a version that can play back the samples
(without effects, and envelopes for now).
This means we will soon be able to play the MIS piano directly streamed
from disk using LinuxSampler.
So the advice to Atti and others is:
One of you should use a Windows app which allows you to create .GIG
files (with GigaStudio being the natural choice), download the MIS
samples, tune volume, velocity-splits, trim samples (some samples have a
bit of silence at the beginning etc) and make a .GIG file out of it.
After the piano sounds good in GigaStudio you should post it online.
That way as soon as LinuxSampler is ready (the piano sample does not
require filters, envelopes etc) we can release a truly free
Grandpiano in software (samples + player).
To compare how well the MIS piano .GIG you will create ,sounds I suggest
you to use this page:
http://www.af.lu.se/~fogwall/piano.html
On that page you find a classical music midi file
Fantaisie-Impromptu (Chopin)
and the corresponding audio clips rendered with various
digital pianos, hardware expanders and software samples
(including VST The Grand, various multi-Gigabyte piano samples for
Gigasampler etc).
Not sure about the quality we can achieve, for example the MIS piano
does not include pedal down samples.
IANAPP (I am not a piano player) so I do not know if this is a big
disadvantage that makes it sound unprofessional.
Worth a try anyway.
What do you think ?
cheers,
Benno
> * sample the grandpiano of the latest
Roland/Korg/Yamaha electric >piano
> * give the sample away
> * package it (sf2) and put it on my web site
>
if you are prepared to go through all the pain of
trimming and looping
zillions of samples, why not do the real thing ?
there is a raw set of steinway grand samples floating around on the net
somewhere (was even announced to this list iirc), and i think it's even
an anechoic recording.
the license was something along the lines of "free for the taking".
14 Oct
14 Oct
12:06 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Make a .GIG out of the MIS piano Was: Re: Copyrights on samples
Benno,
I am a GigaStudio user, but I;'ve never built a complicated .gig
file. Are you looking for someone to do this? If so, I could check it
out and see what I can come up with.
If you are just looking for someone to test the gig file someone else
here makes, I'd be very happy to do that.
In either case I would certainly compare the sound of this gig file
with the sounds I get for the 4 grand piano gig libraries I've
purchased.
Let me know how I might be able to help the most.
Cheers,
Mark
On Tue, 2003-10-14 at 08:22, Benno Senoner wrote:
The free sampled piano is here:
http://theremin.music.uiowa.edu/MIS.html (click on the Piano link)
It is quite large, abot 1.5GB (each note sampled individually in 3
velocities: pp, mf, ff).
I do not know how good the quality of this piano is, Steve Harris
hacked together a small player and posted some mp3s that were rendered
from a MIDI file driving his application.
To me it does not sound that great, perhaps you need to tune
the velocity splits to make it sound well.
Anyway this sampleset is really large and can hardly fit into RAM.
SF2 was not created to be streamed from disk thus I suggest the following.
We of the linuxsampler team made significant progress in .GIG playback
thanks to the wonderful work done by Christian S.
He actually wrote libgig which is able to parse and load .GIG file
supporting all the articulation stuff (layering, key/velocity switching,
dimensions etc).
see our new webpage (thanks Marek ;-) )
http://www.linuxsampler.org
(the new code is not online yet, because Christian and I are fixing bugs
and optimizing the streaming).
I cannot make forecasts when full GIG playback will be done, but shortly
(1-2 weeks) we will release a version that can play back the samples
(without effects, and envelopes for now).
This means we will soon be able to play the MIS piano directly streamed
from disk using LinuxSampler.
So the advice to Atti and others is:
One of you should use a Windows app which allows you to create .GIG
files (with GigaStudio being the natural choice), download the MIS
samples, tune volume, velocity-splits, trim samples (some samples have a
bit of silence at the beginning etc) and make a .GIG file out of it.
After the piano sounds good in GigaStudio you should post it online.
That way as soon as LinuxSampler is ready (the piano sample does not
require filters, envelopes etc) we can release a truly free
Grandpiano in software (samples + player).
To compare how well the MIS piano .GIG you will create ,sounds I suggest
you to use this page:
http://www.af.lu.se/~fogwall/piano.html
On that page you find a classical music midi file
Fantaisie-Impromptu (Chopin)
and the corresponding audio clips rendered with various
digital pianos, hardware expanders and software samples
(including VST The Grand, various multi-Gigabyte piano samples for
Gigasampler etc).
Not sure about the quality we can achieve, for example the MIS piano
does not include pedal down samples.
IANAPP (I am not a piano player) so I do not know if this is a big
disadvantage that makes it sound unprofessional.
Worth a try anyway.
What do you think ?
cheers,
Benno
> * sample the grandpiano of the latest
Roland/Korg/Yamaha electric >piano
> * give the sample away
> * package it (sf2) and put it on my web site
>
if you are prepared to go through all the pain of
trimming and looping
zillions of samples, why not do the real thing ?
there is a raw set of steinway grand samples floating around on the net
somewhere (was even announced to this list iirc), and i think it's even
an anechoic recording.
the license was something along the lines of "free for the taking".
1:47 p.m.
Mark Knecht wrote:
Benno,
I am a GigaStudio user, but I;'ve never built a complicated .gig
file. Are you looking for someone to do this? If so, I could check it
out and see what I can come up with.
exactly, if you (or others) are experienced with GigaStudio you could
try to assemble a .GIG instrument.
Basically you just download the .aiff files, convert them to WAV (I
guess GS cannot read .aiff)
and edit them (mainly trimming silence at the beginning, at least one
sample as far I remember,
has a a few wrong samplepoints in it which cause a bit of distortion,
but I guess you can fix it
easily with a sample editor).
Then create a new instrument, load the file into GS and map them on each
key.
(3 samples (pp,mf,ff) per key).
At that point the instrument is ready. The only thing you need to tune
at that point is the
velocity splitting eg. how to divide the 0-127 velocity space in 3 parts.
I don't know if this velocity optimization has to be done once per key
or globally.
(probably to get best results you need to do it on a per key basis).
I would advise you to play the Chopin MIDI file on the piano comparison
page and see if the velocity
mapping sounds convincing.
cheers,
Benno
If you are just looking for someone to test the gig file someone else
here makes, I'd be very happy to do that.
In either case I would certainly compare the sound of this gig file
with the sounds I get for the 4 grand piano gig libraries I've
purchased.
Let me know how I might be able to help the most.
Cheers,
Mark
On Tue, 2003-10-14 at 08:22, Benno Senoner wrote:
>The free sampled piano is here:
>http://theremin.music.uiowa.edu/MIS.html (click on the Piano link)
>
>
>
2:18 p.m.
16 Oct
16 Oct
5:34 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Make a .GIG out of the MIS piano Was: Re: Copyrights on samples
Mark I fully agree with what you said, and probably the MIS piano is not
that great compared to those
16 layers samples. But some probably would like to have decent quality
samples available for free.
And AFAIK there aren't that many around.
Perhaps a music research lab at an university or some private piano
owner/recording studio that owns the
required recording equipement could try to make such an 8-16 layer GIG
file and make it available for
free in order to support the musicians that want to make music with free
software/sample libraries/sounds.
Of course other instruments are welcome too ;-)
Yes I fully agree it takes lots of work to make a high quality sample
library but on the other hand
writing a complex audio application takes lots of man-months (of
talented software engineers which are
much more rare than musicians/sound designers) so if we follow your
reasoning one might ask about
why wasting all this time to create for example LinuxSampler when there
are dozen of sw-samplers
available on the market. Some powerful cost up to $800-$1000 while
others run as low as $50-$80
(the german Speedsoft V-Sampler for Windows).
I think the same ideals that induce people to write free audio software
for Linux should induce sound designers
that share our beliefs to produce samples and sounds that can be used
for free.
I think everyone should have the right of making music , and we all know
instruments (both traditional and electronic ones)
have always been expensive but thanks to PC technology and free
software (and hopefully some free samples/sounds)
we can significantly lower the barrier of entry for the not so wealthy.
Sound designers that make available some of their samples for free will
contribute to that cause.
I think like there exists the "Digital Divide" (the poor not having
access to computers/internet),
there exist a "Music Divide" too. (the creative person that would like
to make music but cannot afford to buy the required tools). Let's
contribute to remove that barrier too.
Benno
http://www.linuxsampler.org
Mark Knecht wrote:
exactly, if you
(or others) are experienced with GigaStudio you could
try to assemble a .GIG instrument.
Sure, but as I pointed out in the next email, I think there's not a good
reason to go through that effort just yet:
1) There are free piano libraries out there, or you can buy one starting at
probably $39 or so. East-West comes to mind.
2) Today's best GSt pianos are doing 16 (or more) layers pedal up, 16 (or
more) layers pedal down AND release samples. It does make a big difference
to have both pedal down and release samples.
If you hardware cannot handle that library, then these high end libraries
all ship stripped down versions that use just pieces, like only pedal up and
no release, to ease the burden on hardware. Even the high-end ones only run
about $200, so at 33 samples * 88 notes or about 2500 wave files, someone
has to really WANT to do this because it's only costing about 10 cents per
wave file and they have a better piano so sample.
This still comes back, in my mind as a GSt user for about 3 years, to having
some sounds that are worthwhile. Taking an existing synth, or piano, and
doing some processing to make something new will be more useful than just
another GSt piano library.
BTW - do you know about the Piano Shootout page?
http://www.purgatorycreek.com/pianocompare.html
There must be close to 100 piano libraries right now just on this site...
- Mark
14 Oct
14 Oct
12:51 p.m.
On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 17:22:07 +0200
Benno Senoner <sbenno(a)gardena.net> wrote:
So the advice to Atti and others is:
Hmmm, that should have been Atte, but ok :-)
One of you should use a Windows app which allows you
to create .GIG
files (with GigaStudio being the natural choice), download the MIS
samples, tune volume, velocity-splits, trim samples (some samples have
a bit of silence at the beginning etc) and make a .GIG file out of it.
I do not have access to a windows partition, so... I would rather give
it the best shot at creating a (few) sf3(s) of the samples. This could
also prove useful to some people (for instance me, that always run
everything from csound anyways)...
After the piano sounds good in GigaStudio you should
post it online.
That way as soon as LinuxSampler is ready (the piano sample does not
require filters, envelopes etc) we can release a truly free
Grandpiano in software (samples + player).
I didn't know that the project was that mature, looking forward to
checking it out.
To compare how well the MIS piano .GIG you will create
,sounds I
suggest you to use this page:
http://www.af.lu.se/~fogwall/piano.html
On that page you find a classical music midi file
Fantaisie-Impromptu (Chopin)
and the corresponding audio clips rendered with various
digital pianos, hardware expanders and software samples
(including VST The Grand, various multi-Gigabyte piano samples for
Gigasampler etc).
Great idea. I'll give that a go with my sf2-version.
Not sure about the quality we can achieve, for example
the MIS piano
does not include pedal down samples.
IANAPP (I am not a piano player) so I do not know if this is a big
disadvantage that makes it sound unprofessional.
I personally don't think it's *that* important. Let's see...
--
peace, love & harmony
Atte
1:01 p.m.
<SNIP>
This means we will soon be able to play the MIS piano directly streamed
from disk using LinuxSampler.
So the advice to Atti and others is:
One of you should use a Windows app which allows you to create .GIG
files (with GigaStudio being the natural choice), download the MIS
samples, tune volume, velocity-splits, trim samples (some samples have a
bit of silence at the beginning etc) and make a .GIG file out of it.
Benno,
I started to wonder why we need to do this? There are a large number of
open-source GIG files on the net. Two of the most notable sites to get them
are:
http://www.worrasplace.com (Currently down, but coming)
which I pointed out in this forum last December, and
http://62.13.11.115/gtown/ (Currently up, and staying, I hope!) ;-)
with some great gig files sampled at Grebbestad Church.
wouldn't using those gig files provide more than enough confirmation that
any sampler work that was going on here did indeed work with standard gig
files?
Or has this been done already?
Cheers,
Mark
2:01 p.m.
Mark Knecht wrote:
<SNIP>
but the problem is they are relatively small.
Ok that organ is probably nice (100MB .GIG) but have you ever seen a
free 1.5GB piano on the net ?
AFAIK there aren't any so I think the guy that will build the MIS .GIG
file would make a good service
to those that want free high quality samples.
This means we will soon be able to play the MIS
piano directly streamed
from disk using LinuxSampler.
So the advice to Atti and others is:
One of you should use a Windows app which allows you to create .GIG
files (with GigaStudio being the natural choice), download the MIS
samples, tune volume, velocity-splits, trim samples (some samples have a
bit of silence at the beginning etc) and make a .GIG file out of it.
Benno,
I started to wonder why we need to do this? There are a large number of
open-source GIG files on the net. Two of the most notable sites to get them
are:
http://www.worrasplace.com (Currently down, but coming)
which I pointed out in this forum last December, and
http://62.13.11.115/gtown/ (Currently up, and staying, I hope!) ;-)
with some great gig files sampled at Grebbestad Church.
wouldn't using those gig files provide more than enough confirmation that
any sampler work that was going on here did indeed work with standard gig
files?
I don't understand exactly that you mean.
In linuxsampler we initially support AKAI S1000/2000 and GIG so that
users can tap into
the large pool of existing high quality sample libraries.
Of course the more samples we test libakai and libgig with the easier it
will be to spot
bugs and compatiblity problems.
cheers,
Benno
Or has this been done already?
Cheers,
Mark
2:30 p.m.
7529
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linux-audio-user@lists.linuxaudio.org
8 comments
4 participants
participants (4)
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Atte André Jensen -
Benno Senoner -
Mark Knecht -
Mark Knecht