1 Sep
2014
1 Sep
'14
2:10 a.m.
I am fascinated by Carla's ability to call ZASFX. How could this be implemented for
Yoshimi? Are there config files of some sort?
--
Jonathan E. Brickman
Ponderworthy Music | jeb@ponderworthy.com<mailto:jeb@ponderworthy.com> |
(785)233-9977 | http://ponderworthy.com
3 Sep
3 Sep
2:28 p.m.
On 09/01/2014 12:21 AM, Jonathan E Brickman wrote:
I am fascinated by Carla's ability to call ZASFX.
How could this be
implemented for Yoshimi? Are there config files of some sort?
There is no reason for this to happen.
ZynAddSubFX is more stable nowadays than Yoshimi and being maintained by
a very good developer.
Very soon I'll be releasing a LV2+VST plugin version of Zyn (based on
the last stable release).
Latest Zyn dev/git version now has fully automable parameters,
undo/redo, OSC and UI<->DSP de-coupling (no more using a super ugly
master mutex).
As much as you might want to use Yoshimi, it needs to be let go and
development focused on Zyn instead.
PS: This message went to my spam folder, didn't noticed it until now.
6:35 p.m.
On Wed, 2014-09-03 at 13:28 +0100, Filipe Coelho wrote:
ZynAddSubFX is more stable nowadays than Yoshimi
Here both were stable, but I use Yoshimi, because ZynAddSubFX often
isn't available by a package for some distros. IIRC by default the sound
quality of ZynAddSubFX is better, but IIRC it's related to the default
settings and when editing the defaults both sound equal. I might be
mistaken, I won't test it right now.
8:06 p.m.
On Wed, 03 Sep 2014 13:28:23 +0100
Filipe Coelho <falktx(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On 09/01/2014 12:21 AM, Jonathan E Brickman wrote:
You know, I'm beginning to get a little tired of comments like this.
Nobody is twisting your arm. If you don't want to use Yoshimi... then don't.
However why do you think you need to try and dissuade anyone else from doing so?
Do you know Yoshimi's roadmap? No of course you don't. I'd guess you don't
even
know what Yoshimi can currently do.
While I intend to keep file compatibility with ZynAddSubFX as far as possible,
we are going on a different ride - and I see no reason to reveal exactly what
this is to such a hostile audience.
As well as having the opportunity to take Yoshimi in directions I and friends
want, I am learning a great deal about coding in the process. Therefore, even if
I end up being the only person running it, I intend Yoshimi to stay around, at
least as long as I do, so you'd best get used to the idea.
P.S.
You may be surprised to learn that I have on a number of occasions reported
bugs in ZynAddSubFX to the devs with as much detail as I could, so in no way are
they losing out.
--
Will J Godfrey
http://www.musically.me.uk
Say you have a poem and I have a tune.
Exchange them and we can both have a poem, a tune, and a song.
I am fascinated by Carla's ability to call
ZASFX. How could this be
implemented for Yoshimi? Are there config files of some sort?
There is no reason for this to happen.
ZynAddSubFX is more stable nowadays than Yoshimi and being maintained by
a very good developer.
Very soon I'll be releasing a LV2+VST plugin version of Zyn (based on
the last stable release).
Latest Zyn dev/git version now has fully automable parameters,
undo/redo, OSC and UI<->DSP de-coupling (no more using a super ugly
master mutex).
As much as you might want to use Yoshimi, it needs to be let go and
development focused on Zyn instead.
8:24 p.m.
On 09/03/2014 07:06 PM, Will Godfrey wrote:
On Wed, 03 Sep 2014 13:28:23 +0100
Filipe Coelho <falktx(a)gmail.com> wrote:
This is my thing with it. I'd rather have the full focus on Zyn instead
of having 2 separate versions.
Some stuff will end up in Yoshimi that Zyn will not have and vice-versa.
With time the code will differ so much that changes can't be applied to
one another.
When Zyn did not have a maintainer Yoshimi seemed like the right thing,
but this is no longer the case.
On 09/01/2014 12:21 AM, Jonathan E Brickman
wrote:
You know, I'm beginning to get a little
tired of comments like this.
Nobody is twisting your arm. If you don't want to use Yoshimi... then don't.
However why do you think you need to try and dissuade anyone else from doing so?
Do you know Yoshimi's roadmap? No of course you don't. I'd guess you
don't even
know what Yoshimi can currently do.
While I intend to keep file compatibility with ZynAddSubFX as far as possible,
we are going on a different ride - and I see no reason to reveal exactly what
this is to such a hostile audience.
As well as having the opportunity to take Yoshimi in directions I and friends
want, I am learning a great deal about coding in the process. Therefore, even if
I end up being the only person running it, I intend Yoshimi to stay around, at
least as long as I do, so you'd best get used to the idea. I am fascinated by Carla's ability to call
ZASFX. How could this be
implemented for Yoshimi? Are there config files of some sort?
There is no reason
for this to happen.
ZynAddSubFX is more stable nowadays than Yoshimi and being maintained by
a very good developer.
Very soon I'll be releasing a LV2+VST plugin version of Zyn (based on
the last stable release).
Latest Zyn dev/git version now has fully automable parameters,
undo/redo, OSC and UI<->DSP de-coupling (no more using a super ugly
master mutex).
As much as you might want to use Yoshimi, it needs to be let go and
development focused on Zyn instead. 
11:25 p.m.
On 09/03/2014 08:23 AM, Filipe Coelho wrote:
On 09/03/2014 07:06 PM, Will Godfrey wrote:
As far as I know, Zyn has NEVER been without a maintainer. Where'd you
get that idea?
My experience with Zyn is freezes when running at low latencies. On the
same hardware running with the same settings, Yoshimi doesn't.
My experience with both Zyn and Yoshimi is that the UI sucks, with its
little non-resizable hard-coded window giving almost illegible text on
high-rez displays.
--
David W. Jones
gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
http://dancingtreefrog.com
On Wed, 03 Sep 2014 13:28:23 +0100
Filipe Coelho <falktx(a)gmail.com> wrote:
This is my thing with it. I'd rather have the full focus on Zyn instead
of having 2 separate versions.
Some stuff will end up in Yoshimi that Zyn will not have and vice-versa.
With time the code will differ so much that changes can't be applied to
one another.
When Zyn did not have a maintainer Yoshimi seemed like the right thing,
but this is no longer the case. On 09/01/2014 12:21 AM, Jonathan E Brickman
wrote:
You know, I'm beginning to get a little
tired of comments like this.
Nobody is twisting your arm. If you don't want to use Yoshimi... then
don't.
However why do you think you need to try and dissuade anyone else from
doing so?
Do you know Yoshimi's roadmap? No of course you don't. I'd guess you
don't even
know what Yoshimi can currently do.
While I intend to keep file compatibility with ZynAddSubFX as far as
possible,
we are going on a different ride - and I see no reason to reveal
exactly what
this is to such a hostile audience.
As well as having the opportunity to take Yoshimi in directions I and
friends
want, I am learning a great deal about coding in the process.
Therefore, even if
I end up being the only person running it, I intend Yoshimi to stay
around, at
least as long as I do, so you'd best get used to the idea. I am fascinated by Carla's ability to call
ZASFX. How could this be
implemented for Yoshimi? Are there config files of some sort?
There is no reason
for this to happen.
ZynAddSubFX is more stable nowadays than Yoshimi and being maintained by
a very good developer.
Very soon I'll be releasing a LV2+VST plugin version of Zyn (based on
the last stable release).
Latest Zyn dev/git version now has fully automable parameters,
undo/redo, OSC and UI<->DSP de-coupling (no more using a super ugly
master mutex).
As much as you might want to use Yoshimi, it needs to be let go and
development focused on Zyn instead.
11:36 p.m.
On 09/03/2014 11:25 AM, david wrote:
On 09/03/2014 08:23 AM, Filipe Coelho wrote:
My understanding is that requests to give Zyn a modern UI fall on deaf
ears because it's the way the developer likes it.
--
David W. Jones
gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
http://dancingtreefrog.com
On 09/03/2014 07:06 PM, Will Godfrey wrote:
As far as I know, Zyn has NEVER been without a maintainer. Where'd you
get that idea?
My experience with Zyn is freezes when running at low latencies. On the
same hardware running with the same settings, Yoshimi doesn't.
My experience with both Zyn and Yoshimi is that the UI sucks, with its
little non-resizable hard-coded window giving almost illegible text on
high-rez displays. On Wed, 03 Sep 2014 13:28:23 +0100
Filipe Coelho <falktx(a)gmail.com> wrote:
This is my thing with it. I'd rather have the full focus on Zyn instead
of having 2 separate versions.
Some stuff will end up in Yoshimi that Zyn will not have and vice-versa.
With time the code will differ so much that changes can't be applied to
one another.
When Zyn did not have a maintainer Yoshimi seemed like the right thing,
but this is no longer the case. On 09/01/2014 12:21 AM, Jonathan E Brickman
wrote:
> I am fascinated by Carla's ability to call ZASFX. How could this be
> implemented for Yoshimi? Are there config files of some sort?
There is no reason for this to happen.
ZynAddSubFX is more stable nowadays than Yoshimi and being
maintained by
a very good developer.
Very soon I'll be releasing a LV2+VST plugin version of Zyn (based on
the last stable release).
Latest Zyn dev/git version now has fully automable parameters,
undo/redo, OSC and UI<->DSP de-coupling (no more using a super ugly
master mutex).
As much as you might want to use Yoshimi, it needs to be let go and
development focused on Zyn instead.
You know, I'm beginning to get a little
tired of comments like this.
Nobody is twisting your arm. If you don't want to use Yoshimi... then
don't.
However why do you think you need to try and dissuade anyone else from
doing so?
Do you know Yoshimi's roadmap? No of course you don't. I'd guess you
don't even
know what Yoshimi can currently do.
While I intend to keep file compatibility with ZynAddSubFX as far as
possible,
we are going on a different ride - and I see no reason to reveal
exactly what
this is to such a hostile audience.
As well as having the opportunity to take Yoshimi in directions I and
friends
want, I am learning a great deal about coding in the process.
Therefore, even if
I end up being the only person running it, I intend Yoshimi to stay
around, at
least as long as I do, so you'd best get used to the idea.
11:42 p.m.
On 09/03/2014 10:36 PM, david wrote:
My understanding is that requests to give Zyn a modern
UI fall on deaf
ears because it's the way the developer likes it.
Completely false.
The current Zyn release already has had a small UI change by using NTK
instead of FLTK.
See http://non.tuxfamily.org/wiki/NtkPatches
This has been merged a few months ago.
There were also talks about doing a completely new UI.
This concept so far is the most widely praised for this:
http://budislavtvp.deviantart.com/art/ZynAddSubFX-UI-Concept-2014-455890191
The issue here is who is going to do all the work.
11:48 p.m.
On 09/03/2014 11:42 AM, Filipe Coelho wrote:
On 09/03/2014 10:36 PM, david wrote:
That wasn't my experience when I mentioned it several years ago. Maybe
things are getting better.
My understanding is that requests to give Zyn a
modern UI fall on deaf
ears because it's the way the developer likes it.
Completely false. The current Zyn release already has had a small UI
change by using NTK
instead of FLTK.
See http://non.tuxfamily.org/wiki/NtkPatches
This has been merged a few months ago.
Hmm, OK, what version of Zyn has that?
There were also talks about doing a completely new
UI.
This concept so far is the most widely praised for this:
http://budislavtvp.deviantart.com/art/ZynAddSubFX-UI-Concept-2014-455890191
Looks nice. Is the screen fully resizable, font size customizable, etc?
With multi desktop environments, I can easily give Zyn/Yoshimi it's own
full desktop.
The issue here is who is going to do all the work.
The usual problem with all software! ;)
--
David W. Jones
gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
http://dancingtreefrog.com
4 Sep
4 Sep
12:01 a.m.
On 09/03/2014 10:48 PM, david wrote:
The latest stable one has it at least.
I don't think having customizable options is the purpose of that UI.
The author of that mockup designed a new layout for Zyn that would fit
all the dialogs into a single window, which I find very nice.
I'd implement that UI myself if I wasn't so busy with other projects...
On 09/03/2014 11:42 AM, Filipe Coelho wrote:
My apologies then.
I didn't come to Linux until somewhat recently (6 years?)
Anyway, it was my impression that Zyn was unmaintained for a while and
because of that Yoshimi was created.
Then Zyn got a maintainer that was actively fixing things so the Yoshimi
fork just doesn't seem as critical as before.
Maybe I'm missing something here...?
On 09/03/2014 10:36 PM, david wrote:
That wasn't my experience when I mentioned it several years ago. Maybe
things are getting better. My understanding is that requests to give Zyn a
modern UI fall on deaf
ears because it's the way the developer likes it.
Completely false. The current
Zyn release already has had a small UI change by using NTK
instead of FLTK.
See http://non.tuxfamily.org/wiki/NtkPatches
This has been merged a few months ago.
Hmm, OK, what version of Zyn has that? There were
also talks about doing a completely new UI.
This concept so far is the most widely praised for this:
http://budislavtvp.deviantart.com/art/ZynAddSubFX-UI-Concept-2014-455890191
Looks nice. Is the screen fully resizable, font size customizable,
etc? With multi desktop environments, I can easily give Zyn/Yoshimi
it's own full desktop.
12:09 a.m.
On 09/03/2014 12:00 PM, Filipe Coelho wrote:
The latest stable one has it at least.
Then it hasn't made any difference at the UI end.
I don't think having customizable options is the purpose of that UI.
The author of that mockup designed a new layout for Zyn that would fit
all the dialogs into a single window, which I find very nice.
I'd implement that UI myself if I wasn't so busy with other projects...
If you're going to redesign the UI that much, you might as well address
the biggest weakness of the whole thing - the insistence on a fixed
size, small window in the first place.
--
David W. Jones
gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
http://dancingtreefrog.com
On 09/03/2014 10:48 PM, david wrote:
History. IIRC, Yoshimi happened because the Zyn and Yoshimi developers
didn't agree on direction or features or something like that. No because
Zyn wasn't being maintained.
Besides, competition is good!
On 09/03/2014 11:42 AM, Filipe Coelho wrote:
My apologies then.
I didn't come to Linux until somewhat recently (6 years?)
Anyway, it was my impression that Zyn was unmaintained for a while and
because of that Yoshimi was created.
Then Zyn got a maintainer that was actively fixing things so the Yoshimi
fork just doesn't seem as critical as before.
Maybe I'm missing something here...? On 09/03/2014 10:36 PM, david wrote:
That wasn't my experience when I mentioned it several years ago. Maybe
things are getting better. My understanding is that requests to give Zyn a
modern UI fall on deaf
ears because it's the way the developer likes it.
Completely false. The current Zyn release already has had a small UI
change by using NTK
instead of FLTK.
See http://non.tuxfamily.org/wiki/NtkPatches
This has been merged a few months ago.
Hmm, OK, what version of Zyn has that? There were also talks about doing a completely new
UI.
This concept so far is the most widely praised for this:
http://budislavtvp.deviantart.com/art/ZynAddSubFX-UI-Concept-2014-455890191
Looks nice. Is the screen fully resizable, font size customizable,
etc? With multi desktop environments, I can easily give Zyn/Yoshimi
it's own full desktop.
12:14 a.m.
Then it hasn't made any difference at the UI end.
You need to build it against NTK.
There's a cmake build option for it.
If you're going to redesign the UI that much, you
might as well
address the biggest weakness of the whole thing - the insistence on a
fixed size, small window in the first place.
Well, for me this new UI makes Zyn much more usable.
I know this is only my opinion though :)
7:36 a.m.
On 09/03/2014 12:14 PM, Filipe Coelho wrote:
I have version 2.4.3 courtesy of Debian Sid. Is that the current stable
version? Looks like it's built against FLTK.
If it's still stuck with a tiny little non-resizable window with
squint-eye text that gives birth to similar other windows, that might
have made sense when a 640x480 color display was "high-end." Doesn't
make any sense now.
--
David W. Jones
gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
http://dancingtreefrog.com
Then it
hasn't made any difference at the UI end.
You need to build it against NTK.
There's a cmake build option for it. If you're
going to redesign the UI that much, you might as well
address the biggest weakness of the whole thing - the insistence on a
fixed size, small window in the first place.
Well, for me this new UI makes Zyn much more usable.
I know this is only my opinion though :)
8:30 a.m.
New subject: [Bulk] Re: Yoshimi, in Carla?
On Wed, 2014-09-03 at 11:48 -1000, david wrote:
It's as disgusting as the other GUI, it's a toy design, you won't see
any professional audio gear that does look like this. There's a lot of
black gear, but it has got contrast and since real gear isn't virtually,
you can feel the knobs with your fingers, you can take a look from
another visual angle, so even black on black could be ok for real gear.
It can't harm to spend 2 or 3 hours to learn the basics of functional
design. „Form follows function“
There were
also talks about doing a completely new UI.
This concept so far is the most widely praised for this:
http://budislavtvp.deviantart.com/art/ZynAddSubFX-UI-Concept-2014-455890191
Looks nice. Is the screen fully resizable, font size customizable,
etc?
8:42 a.m.
New subject: [Bulk] Re: Yoshimi, in Carla?
On 09/03/2014 08:30 PM, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
On Wed, 2014-09-03 at 11:48 -1000, david wrote:
It's as disgusting as the other GUI, it's a toy design, you won't see
any professional audio gear that does look like this. There's a lot of
black gear, but it has got contrast and since real gear isn't virtually,
you can feel the knobs with your fingers, you can take a look from
another visual angle, so even black on black could be ok for real gear.
It can't harm to spend 2 or 3 hours to learn the basics of functional
design. „Form follows function“
Good reading: "The Design of Every Day Things".
My Yamaha PSR keyboard has stenciled labels on medium gray metal. They
use 2 different colors: black, and a light yellow. The light yellow is
almost invisible against the gray. So more than 2-3 hours of learning on
the part of Yamaha doesn't always enable them to hit the ball out of the
park all the time. Fortunately, software is much more malleable!
--
David W. Jones
gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
http://dancingtreefrog.com
There
were also talks about doing a completely new UI.
This concept so far is the most widely praised for this:
http://budislavtvp.deviantart.com/art/ZynAddSubFX-UI-Concept-2014-455890191
Looks nice. Is the screen fully resizable, font size customizable,
etc?
8:54 a.m.
On Wed, 2014-09-03 at 20:41 -1000, david wrote:
On 09/03/2014 08:30 PM, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
:D
I own a relatively aesthetic looking electric water jug, but you will
burn your fingers, if you touch the handhold. A relatively ugly looking
electric water jug, with a usable handhold IMO makes more sens.
„Form follows function“
Good reading: "The Design of Every Day Things".
My Yamaha PSR keyboard has stenciled labels on medium gray metal. They
use 2 different colors: black, and a light yellow. The light yellow is
almost invisible against the gray. So more than 2-3 hours of learning on
the part of Yamaha doesn't always enable them to hit the ball out of the
park all the time. Fortunately, software is much more malleable!
9:11 a.m.
On Thu, 2014-09-04 at 08:54 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
On Wed, 2014-09-03 at 20:41 -1000, david wrote:
After writing about the electric water jug I searched the web for "The
Design of Every Day Things".
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/33/The_Design_of_Everyday_Thing…
*lol*
I guess I'll buy this book :).
Thank you for he recommendation :).
Regards,
Ralf
On 09/03/2014 08:30 PM, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
:D
I own a relatively aesthetic looking electric water jug, but you will
burn your fingers, if you touch the handhold. A relatively ugly looking
electric water jug, with a usable handhold IMO makes more sens. „Form follows function“
Good reading: "The Design of Every Day Things".
My Yamaha PSR keyboard has stenciled labels on medium gray metal. They
use 2 different colors: black, and a light yellow. The light yellow is
almost invisible against the gray. So more than 2-3 hours of learning on
the part of Yamaha doesn't always enable them to hit the ball out of the
park all the time. Fortunately, software is much more malleable!
10:41 a.m.
On 09/03/2014 09:11 PM, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
On Thu, 2014-09-04 at 08:54 +0200, Ralf Mardorf
wrote:
You're welcome. I've had it in my personal library for ages, and it's
been read a number of times.
--
David W. Jones
gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
http://dancingtreefrog.com
On Wed, 2014-09-03 at 20:41 -1000, david wrote:
After writing about the electric water jug I searched the web for "The
Design of Every Day Things".
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/33/The_Design_of_Everyday_Thing…
*lol*
I guess I'll buy this book :).
Thank you for he recommendation :). On 09/03/2014 08:30 PM, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
:D
I own a relatively aesthetic looking electric water jug, but you will
burn your fingers, if you touch the handhold. A relatively ugly looking
electric water jug, with a usable handhold IMO makes more sens. „Form follows function“
Good reading: "The Design of Every Day Things".
My Yamaha PSR keyboard has stenciled labels on medium gray metal. They
use 2 different colors: black, and a light yellow. The light yellow is
almost invisible against the gray. So more than 2-3 hours of learning on
the part of Yamaha doesn't always enable them to hit the ball out of the
park all the time. Fortunately, software is much more malleable!
10:47 a.m.
On 09/03/2014 08:54 PM, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
On Wed, 2014-09-03 at 20:41 -1000, david wrote:
"It probably won an award." For something unusable that designers love.
Don't remember at the moment if that came from TDoEDT or from Jakob
Nielsen. Sounds more like the book's tone than Jakob's.
--
David W. Jones
gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
http://dancingtreefrog.com
On 09/03/2014 08:30 PM, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
:D
I own a relatively aesthetic looking electric water jug, but you will
burn your fingers, if you touch the handhold. A relatively ugly looking
electric water jug, with a usable handhold IMO makes more sens. „Form follows function“
Good reading: "The Design of Every Day Things".
My Yamaha PSR keyboard has stenciled labels on medium gray metal. They
use 2 different colors: black, and a light yellow. The light yellow is
almost invisible against the gray. So more than 2-3 hours of learning on
the part of Yamaha doesn't always enable them to hit the ball out of the
park all the time. Fortunately, software is much more malleable! 
7:58 a.m.
Am 03.09.2014 23:42, schrieb Filipe Coelho:
On 09/03/2014 10:36 PM, david wrote:
I grateful notice that the guitarix
knobs which are used (without
permission/credits of/to the original author Pete Shorthose) in the
screen-shoot above be already removed/replaced by fundamental. So the
current release will look more like this when build against NTK:
http://a.fsdn.com/con/app/proj/zynaddsubfx/screenshots/B9wvVRM.png
My understanding is that requests to give Zyn a
modern UI fall on
deaf ears because it's the way the developer likes it.
Completely false.
The current Zyn release already has had a small UI change by using NTK
instead of FLTK.
See http://non.tuxfamily.org/wiki/NtkPatches
This has been merged a few months ago.
There were also talks about doing a completely new UI.
This concept so far is the most widely praised for this:
http://budislavtvp.deviantart.com/art/ZynAddSubFX-UI-Concept-2014-455890191
The issue here is who is going to do all the work.
_______________________________________________
8:20 a.m.
New subject: [Bulk] Re: Yoshimi, in Carla?
On Wed, 2014-09-03 at 22:42 +0100, Filipe Coelho wrote:
Black potentiometers on black background, the common idiot fashion. The
turned off options are shadowed, dark gray font on black background, so
you need to enable it, before you can read it. IOW Zyn isn't intended
for visually impaired people or for usage on stage, when a spotlight is
in competition with the monitor, it's intended to become another Linux
toy, that is unusable for serious audio work. Congratulations!
Apps should use the DE's/WM's theme, if they don't do it, they should
provide a sane GUI, for the black is beautiful folks, at least do it
similar to this:
http://kokkinizita.linuxaudio.org/linuxaudio/zita-rev1-doc/zita-rev1.png
For serious usage contrast is needed. If you make the background not
completely black and you use colours for the potentiometers it's ok.
For some apps it's useful to provide their own themes, e.g. for Ardour,
but for simple GUIs, it's better to use the user's theme or at least
thinking about the design.
.jpg){kind=link}
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linux-audio-user@lists.linuxaudio.org
21 comments
7 participants
participants (7)
-
david -
Federico Galland -
Filipe Coelho -
hermann meyer -
Jonathan E Brickman -
Ralf Mardorf -
Will Godfrey