12 May
2012
12 May
'12
5:55 p.m.
So, since I am a long time lurker (and occasional poster) on this list, I'd
suggest that we give everyone who reads the list the freedom to write (post)
to the list as long as it is in the spirit of the Mission Statement.
What! There is no Mission Statement? (I could have sworn I had it in my
back pocket a few minutes ago). I guess I have to do another google search
and figure out what I did with the Mission Statement...
Well, Ardour's got one...
LinuxMuscian's got one...
Linux Audio DOT org makes me have to make a security exception because their
certificate can't be traced. They don't have a mission, so maybe if I read
the Policy Statement it would be good enough...
"The aim of the Linuxaudio.org consortium is to promote and enable the use
of Linux kernel based systems for professional audio use."
Well, their policies look pretty good and the Policy Statement aim could do
for a mission statement in a pinch.. A generic statement like this is ok,
but it doesn't produce a hard-on or make me want to give my life for it.
OK, so maybe we have to craft a mission statement:
How about a mission statement like this: "This mailing list consists of a
bunch of cheap bastard techno-dweebs that have no life of their own who are
mainly attracted to linux audio because it is so cheap to implement as long
as you don't count your own time as being worth anything. We have long ago
lost the ability to make music on our own because we have fallen into the
hole of continually tweaking and trying to make something work. We are
lost in our own underwear and can't find our way out. We haven't noticed
that the rest of the audio world uses Windows or Mac O/S and don't care
because those apps aren't on Pirate's Bay and we are too self absorbed to
give any attention to anything we'd have to pay for. We do not normally
work together and use this mailing list to espouse our individual opinions
or problems."
Naw, this one is a bit long.
Here's another potential mission statement: "Linux is good"
Nope. This one is too short.
OK, here's a last one:
"The LAU list is dedicated to providing freedom for the developer, musician,
and audience thru the application of music".
This one seems just right.
If people who post to this list are advancing the causes identified in the
mission statement, then we can easily live with the diversity created by
individuals within the community who have different approaches to solving
the problems and questions inherent in moving the mission forward. If you
read your post and it moves the mission forward, you can then feel free to
hit the "Send" button.
Make sure that "membership" in this "club" is something that you are
proud
of and would be happy to recommend to your close friends. Remember that
your friends are weird too and the inclusion of some of them into this club
should move the achievement of the mission statement a bit closer.
Normally I don't get into Mission Statements because most of them are
Corporate GroupSpeak half truths with no meaning. However, this small
group is VERY talented as a whole and is in danger of drifting off into
non-relevance, especially if we spend a lot of energy attacking each other
instead of helping each other.
Please provide your best alternative "Mission Statement" if this one should
be improved on (and most things can be improved on).
-Mike Mazarick
12 May
12 May
7:18 p.m.
On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 8:54 AM, Mike Mazarick <mazarick(a)bellsouth.net> wrote:
How about a mission statement like this: "This
mailing list consists of a
bunch of cheap bastard techno-dweebs that have no life of their own who are
mainly attracted to linux audio because it is so cheap to implement as long
as you don't count your own time as being worth anything. We have long ago
lost the ability to make music on our own because we have fallen into the
hole of continually tweaking and trying to make something work. We are
lost in our own underwear and can't find our way out. We haven't noticed
that the rest of the audio world uses Windows or Mac O/S and don't care
because those apps aren't on Pirate's Bay and we are too self absorbed to
give any attention to anything we'd have to pay for. We do not normally
work together and use this mailing list to espouse our individual opinions
or problems."
Naw, this one is a bit long.
This is VERY funny, and (tongue in cheek aside) insightful.
From a Linux audio developer perspective, it seems like
many Linux
audio users don't invest back into the community that creates and
supports the different parts of the Linux audio ecosystem, and I think
that could account for why Linux audio is seen as "cheap", and why a
Linux audio user might need to spend lots of time "continually
tweaking and trying to make something work". There are obvious
exceptions to this rule (developers, packagers, documentation writers,
testers, etc.).
Interestingly, some paid applications available for Linux (e.g.
Renoise) have thriving communities that enthusiastically help with
documentation, testing, writing plugins, etc.
OK, here's a last one:
"The LAU list is dedicated to providing freedom for the developer, musician,
and audience thru the application of music".
This one seems just right.
If people who post to this list are advancing the causes identified in the
mission statement, then we can easily live with the diversity created by
individuals within the community who have different approaches to solving
the problems and questions inherent in moving the mission forward. If you
read your post and it moves the mission forward, you can then feel free to
hit the "Send" button.
Make sure that "membership" in this "club" is something that you are
proud
of and would be happy to recommend to your close friends. Remember that
your friends are weird too and the inclusion of some of them into this club
should move the achievement of the mission statement a bit closer.
Normally I don't get into Mission Statements because most of them are
Corporate GroupSpeak half truths with no meaning. However, this small
group is VERY talented as a whole and is in danger of drifting off into
non-relevance, especially if we spend a lot of energy attacking each other
instead of helping each other.
I can't say much about the effectiveness of the mission statement that
you've posted, but I think you make a lot of important points. I hope
that the people on this list really take the time to read what you're
saying instead of flaming you outright.
--
Devin Anderson
surfacepatterns (at) gmail (dot) com
blog - http://surfacepatterns.blogspot.com/
synthclone - http://synthclone.googlecode.com/
13 May
13 May
12:07 p.m.
Thanks, Devin!
> ... We have long ago lost the ability to make
music on our
> own because we have fallen into the hole of continually tweaking and
> trying to make something work.
The first "too long" mission statement is obviously not true, because there
are many instances provided each day of people helping each other out and
many examples posted of music that people created with linux audio. It is
a caricature of this bus's destination that everyone is afraid could be the
landing place. It is not a good idea to throw people off the bus before
deciding where the bus is headed.
Linux audio is at a critical juncture that is similar to a band which has
been together for several years that has written great songs but hasn't had
a 'hit' yet. Linux audio has come a long way since the GUS soundcard, but
other solutions in the marketplace are also very good and have come a long
way too.
At this time, it is appropriate to return the roots of what we are doing and
be reminded of why we are here. It is very tough in this era of iTunes
where everyone is looking for a megahit to be reminded that it is quite fine
just to be the best you can be. It should be something worth doing,
because it will be very difficult getting there from here.
-Mike
1:21 p.m.
On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 11:07 AM, Mike Mazarick <mazarick(a)bellsouth.net>wrote;wrote:
Linux audio is at a critical juncture that is similar
to a band which has
been together for several years that has written great songs but hasn't had
a 'hit' yet.
In my opinion, Linux audio is a hit. 5 years ago I finished secondary
school and decided to try learn "audio programming". I'd already dabbled
with C++ and Python for a year or so. The reason that I'm where I am now
w.r.t. audio coding is due to the open, helpful and sharing attributes of
the LAD / LAU communities.
Perhaps when comparing Linux audio to other OS's on commercial aspects
things look skewed: but you've already discounted one fantastic aspect of
Linux audio, and that can't be said for proprietary land where the best
features are the most gaurded.
-Harry
14 May
14 May
8:46 p.m.
Am 13.05.2012 um 13:21 schrieb Harry van Haaren <harryhaaren(a)gmail.com>om>:
On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 11:07 AM, Mike Mazarick
<mazarick(a)bellsouth.net
Linux Audio has been giving me tools for my passion, art and daily
work for more than the last decade. I am really thankful for that,
everybody.
My impression of LAU and LAD is that of an honest, argumentative and
compassionate community going for the long haul. It may not always
sound that way. But jazz aint dead either.
And ceterum censeo: my dream of incorporating the tools and traditions
of the free software community into the workflow of recording artists
who are geographically separated, is still behind the hill.
That's just great, because I think a universal approach to managing
sessions is on the horizon. I am pretty sure that this will bring a
great number of fresh users to linux audio.
Let's keep our discussions at the best we can. There are people out
there who want to feel welcome.
2cts,
- Burkhard
wrote:
Linux audio is at a critical
juncture that is similar to a band
which has
been together for several years that has written great songs but
hasn't had
a 'hit' yet.
In my opinion, Linux audio is a hit. 5 years ago I finished
secondary school and decided to try learn "audio programming". I'd
already dabbled with C++ and Python for a year or so. The reason
that I'm where I am now w.r.t. audio coding is due to the open,
helpful and sharing attributes of the LAD / LAU communities.
Perhaps when comparing Linux audio to other OS's on commercial
aspects things look skewed: but you've already discounted one
fantastic aspect of Linux audio, and that can't be said for
proprietary land where the best features are the most gaurded. 
13 May
13 May
2:50 p.m.
On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 6:07 AM, Mike Mazarick <mazarick(a)bellsouth.net> wrote:
Linux audio is at a critical juncture that is similar
to a band which has
been together for several years that has written great songs but hasn't had
a 'hit' yet.
[ ... ]
It is very tough in this era of iTunes
where everyone is looking for a megahit to be reminded that it is quite fine
just to be the best you can be.
what you are talking about has absolutely nothing to do with the
reasons why i write audio software for linux, or for any other
platform. i happen to be friends with people who write very successful
audio software for other platforms and its not anything to do with
their reasons either.
14 May
14 May
8:07 a.m.
On 05/13/2012 12:07 AM, Mike Mazarick wrote:
Thanks, Devin!
>> ... We have long ago lost the ability to make music on our
>> own because we have fallen into the hole of continually tweaking and
>> trying to make something work.
Hmm. Last few Linux audio distros I checked out didn't require tweaking.
RT kernels already configured and working. A wide variety of audio apps
installed, configured and working. Oh, I'm sorry, I did have to tweak
one thing. I had to configure my USB sound card in QJackCtl on the laptops.
Musix 3 beta does the audio end of things quite well ...
I don't blame Linux audio for what adventures I've had getting things to
work. I run Debian Sid, and even with the excellent help of Aptosid, Sid
is still a somewhat shakey foundation to build on! ;-)
--
David
gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
http://clanjones.org/david/
http://dancing-treefrog.deviantart.com/
8:31 a.m.
I doubt that the link between actual contribution and the amount of emails
is a priori valid.
--
Louigi Verona
http://www.louigiverona.ru/
13 May
13 May
11:20 a.m.
On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 8:54 AM, Mike Mazarick <mazarick(a)bellsouth.net> wrote:
[bullshit]
Sigh. My opinion? Do something useful or GTFO. Linux Audio runs on the
vision and action of a very small group. Why is that group so small?
Good question, but you're not helping by posting BS on the mailing
list.
11:40 a.m.
On Sun, 13 May 2012 02:20:34 -0700
"J. Liles" <malnourite(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 8:54 AM, Mike Mazarick
<mazarick(a)bellsouth.net> wrote:
[bullshit]
Sigh. My opinion? Do something useful or GTFO. Linux Audio runs on the
vision and action of a very small group. Why is that group so small?
Good question, but you're not helping by posting BS on the mailing
That is correct.
Producing quality software and music is the only real way to do something.
I don't need motivational speeches, marketing talk and such other nonsense here. Plain
facts should be sufficient.
4:32 p.m.
On Sun, 13 May 2012 02:20:34 -0700
"J. Liles" <malnourite(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 8:54 AM, Mike Mazarick
<mazarick(a)bellsouth.net> wrote:
[bullshit]
Sigh. My opinion? Do something useful or GTFO.
Perhaps the above is a contributor to the 'smallness'.
--
Will J Godfrey
http://www.musically.me.uk
Say you have a poem and I have a tune.
Exchange them and we can both have a poem, a tune, and a song.
14 May
14 May
4:03 a.m.
On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 7:32 AM, Folderol <folderol(a)ukfsn.org> wrote:
On Sun, 13 May 2012 02:20:34 -0700
"J. Liles" <malnourite(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I sincerely doubt it. I've been a fairly major contributor to Linux
Audio for about half a decade now and I've posted less than a 100
messages to the mailing lists. People who have what it takes to get
things done do--people who just talk rarely accomplish anything. I'm
certainly not the reason why you or anyone else isn't buckling down
and making the world they want rather than complaining about the one
they've been handed. I would much prefer that *everyone* in the
community do something useful.
There is no master plan. There is no mission statement. There is only
a handful of crazy/brilliant people making the tools they need to do
the work they want to do. Only occasionally do these parameters
overlap. I don't see anything wrong with that.
The day that Linux is *the* mainstream platform for audio, if it ever
happens (don't hold your breath) will be just another day for me. I
couldn't care less. Everyone will be running some layer of shiny
proprietary crap on top of the framework we built anyway and it will
be just as irrelevant to me as Windows and OS X are now.
And furthermore, to set the record straight: Any developer of a
large/complex free-software project knows very well that it isn't
about being cheap either--time is money and this stuff take a *lot* of
time.
On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 8:54 AM, Mike Mazarick
<mazarick(a)bellsouth.net> wrote:
[bullshit]
Sigh. My opinion? Do something useful or GTFO.
Perhaps the above is a contributor to the 'smallness'. 
4:59 a.m.
On Mon, May 14, 2012 4:03 am, J. Liles wrote:
On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 7:32 AM, Folderol
<folderol(a)ukfsn.org> wrote:
This list is for discussion. If someone thinks that it's worthwhile to
start a thread about a mission statement what is the problem?
On Sun, 13 May 2012 02:20:34 -0700
"J. Liles" <malnourite(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I sincerely doubt it. I've been a fairly major contributor to Linux
Audio for about half a decade now and I've posted less than a 100
messages to the mailing lists. People who have what it takes to get
things done do--people who just talk rarely accomplish anything. I'm
certainly not the reason why you or anyone else isn't buckling down
and making the world they want rather than complaining about the one
they've been handed. I would much prefer that *everyone* in the
community do something useful.
On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 8:54 AM, Mike Mazarick
<mazarick(a)bellsouth.net>
wrote:
[bullshit]
Sigh. My opinion? Do something useful or GTFO.
Perhaps the above is a contributor to the 'smallness'. There is no master plan. There is no mission
statement.
Maybe it's that way for you but it's not that way for everyone.
There is only
a handful of crazy/brilliant people making the tools they need to do
the work they want to do. Only occasionally do these parameters
overlap. I don't see anything wrong with that.
This community is much bigger than you seem to think. There are several
thousand members of this list and Linux Audio developers has more too.
Then there are the various other lists that people contribute to on a
regular basis who have nothing to do with this list.
My best estimate is there are at least 10,000 active contributing members
of the global Linux Audio community.
If that was a company then we would be a decent sized organisation and
bringing in at least a billion dollars a year.
The day that Linux is *the* mainstream platform for
audio, if it ever
happens (don't hold your breath) will be just another day for me. I
couldn't care less. Everyone will be running some layer of shiny
proprietary crap on top of the framework we built anyway and it will
be just as irrelevant to me as Windows and OS X are now.
Linux Audio will be irrelevant to you *or* the shiny layer of proprietary
crap?
And furthermore, to set the record straight: Any
developer of a
large/complex free-software project knows very well that it isn't
about being cheap either--time is money and this stuff take a *lot* of
time.
expertise, research, effort, motivation, communication, planning, funding,
marketing, resources...
In terms of a mission statement for Linux Audio Community we already have
the Linux Audio Consortium. My suggestion is that if someone wants to add
value to that discussion they should look at contributing to the
Consortium.
If the Consortium does not provide the platform then just put your ideas
out here and see who wants to contribute.
Otherwise find a project that you think is a good starting point for your
objectives and get involved. The more, the merrier...
--
Patrick Shirkey
Boost Hardware Ltd
10:34 a.m.
On 05/14/2012 04:59 AM, Patrick Shirkey wrote:
All talk of what should be done, coming from people not know to have
done much or anything relevant, is likely to sound
*fill-in-something-not-nice* to those people who invested serious effort
in something that is relevant.
There is no and will not be a master plan for the linux audio
"community", because the motivations, interests and opinions vary too much.
This list is for discussion. If someone thinks that
it's worthwhile to
start a thread about a mission statement what is the problem?
Yes, no problem. J. Liles contributed to the discussion.
There is no
master plan. There is no mission statement.
Maybe it's that way for you but it's not that way for everyone. My best estimate is there are at least 10,000 active
contributing members
of the global Linux Audio community.
Contributing what?
If that was a company then we would be a decent sized
organisation and
bringing in at least a billion dollars a year.
Your 10000 suddenly are organized full-time workers?
--
Thorsten Wilms
thorwil's design for free software:
http://thorwil.wordpress.com/
9:44 a.m.
Am 13.05.2012 11:20, schrieb J. Liles:
On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 8:54 AM, Mike
Mazarick<mazarick(a)bellsouth.net> wrote:
[bullshit]
Sigh. My opinion? Do something useful or GTFO. Linux Audio runs on the
vision and action of a very small group. Why is that group so small?
Good question,
Excellent Question indeed.
After the times of "y` need to have an experienced nerd beside you to
even make it bleep and this nerd needs to be a Linux *Audio* nerd, which
is a beast even harder to find than your average Linux nerd (who use to
know little of s.c. realtime...)." are gone, anybody *could* at least
try this Linux Audio kind of thing right?
But they dont.
Why is that? Simply put: even though Linux Audio deos work now, the
other thing works also and it offers more apps that use to be more
convenient and well known amongst musicians. Add some pictures and
statements by Josh Homme or Simon Phillips or any other well respected
musician and make them say: "I use this plugin, else I could not blow
your heads off." And the people believe. And the plugins do work and
offer a lot of fun and anybody can find a special priced "version" of
its Windows-installer on the internets.
Whenever people see me working with Ardour, Guitarix, Qtractor,
KDenlive, AMS or CALF, they say: "Not bad, I did not know that! Seems to
work nearly the same as good as my Samplitude/NI/Cubase/Reaper" you name it.
But of course they do not switch. Because they cannot easily *add* Linux
Audio to their arsenal but they have to indeed switch.
If you build a fine guitar, that sounds the same as good as any Fender
or Gibson and of course better than any PRS, and that even looks very
good and unique, people will like to have it.
But not, if you build them with special plugs that can only connect to
special amps none of the Gibsons and Fenders and Hagstroms can play with.
But we cannot do anything else because our amp is just great and it is
the only relevant one with built-in freedom. So I guess, we have to
support the devs as good as we can, use the software for our own good
and spread the word.
And hope, that the appreciation of the state of *not* being a mere
customer gains more importance for more people.
And by all means let us drop this "I love it cuz its free beer!" kind of
thing. If we want pro-software that is free as in freedom we should pay
people for writing it.
best regards
HZN
but you're not helping by posting BS on the
mailing
list.
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-user mailing list
Linux-audio-user(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-user
9:59 a.m.
On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 11:43 AM, Hartmut Noack wrote:
And by all means let us drop this "I love it cuz
its free beer!" kind of
thing. If we want pro-software that is free as in freedom we should pay
people for writing it.
Words of wisdom, Hartmut :)
Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
8:21 p.m.
On 05/13/2012 09:43 PM, Hartmut Noack wrote:
Am 13.05.2012 11:20, schrieb J. Liles:
Whenever people see me working with Ardour, Guitarix,
Qtractor,
KDenlive, AMS or CALF, they say: "Not bad, I did not know that! Seems to
work nearly the same as good as my Samplitude/NI/Cubase/Reaper" you name
it.
But of course they do not switch. Because they cannot easily *add* Linux
Audio to their arsenal but they have to indeed switch.
People don't switch because they don't need to switch. They're still
happily going their music work with stuff on their present OS, meets
their needs, so they have no reason to switch.
The ones making money from their music work have the money to pay for
software, but they also have the pressure to keep producing. So any
effort put into switching to even a different audio app on their
existing OS is time spent not making money.
And if someone's not making money to pay for their music software,
they're going to somehow magically have money to pay people to write
free music software?
Don't want to burst anyone's myth, but getting pro audio stuff working
on Windows isn't a simple plug-and-play thing. I have a friend who has
been trying to do that, and constantly has to be calling product support
for help. So the vaunted commercial proprietary products aren't a whole
lot easier than the free Linux apps.
--
David
gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
http://clanjones.org/david/
http://dancing-treefrog.deviantart.com/
8:24 p.m.
I agree. Believe it or not, I started thinking about switching exactly
because Windows as a live performance tool is a very difficult thing to
configure and not too reliable. I actually found Linux to be easier in a
number of ways. All my serious live performances became possible only
thanks to Linux and the modular concept.
Louigi.
13 May
13 May
3:51 p.m.
On 05/12/2012 05:54 PM, Mike Mazarick wrote:
"The aim of the Linuxaudio.org consortium is to
promote and enable the use
of Linux kernel based systems for professional audio use."
The most common denominator. Short and to the point. It includes
everyone from developer to musician; and encompasses everything from
development, discussion, collaboration, cooperation, information,
announcements,.. etc.
Personally I'd rather see this loosen up than becoming more specific.
ie. promote free-software in general rather than GNU/Linux only, but
I would not exchange Linux for anything - not BSD nor Darwin,.. so I'm fine.
"The LAU list is dedicated to providing freedom
for the developer,
musician, and audience thru the application of music".
This one seems just right.
There's much more on linuxaudio.org than just the LAU list.
"LAU is the mailinglist for users of linux audio software to ask
questions, help others, discuss or just hang out."
from http://linuxaudio.org/mailarchive
Now one could /bikeshed/ or nitpick over details,.. but why? making
music, soundtracks or designing and writing software is more fun.
2c,
robin
3:51 p.m.
New subject: LAO SSL certificate -- was Mission Statement
On 05/12/2012 05:54 PM, Mike Mazarick wrote:
Linux Audio DOT org makes me have to make a security
exception because their
certificate can't be traced.
Import this cert: http://www.linuxaudio.org/ca.crt
BTW we don't really support SSL for end-users.
https://linuxaudio.org is intended for Drupal editors to log-in safely.
None of the other vhosts support HTTPS.
At some point s.o. wanted to take care of proper SSL certs for LAO. It
has not happened. Feel free to take care if it.
I somehow ended up being root on LAO ~6 years ago and never thought i'd
play administrator for this long. I'd welcome if others would step up
and help out.
best,
robin
4578
days inactive
4580
days old
linux-audio-user@lists.linuxaudio.org
19 comments
16 participants
participants (16)
-
Alexandre Prokoudine -
Burkhard Wölfel -
david -
Devin Anderson -
Folderol -
Harry van Haaren -
Hartmut Noack -
J. Liles -
Louigi Verona -
Mike Mazarick -
Nils -
Patrick Shirkey -
Paul Davis -
Robin Gareus -
Robin Gareus -
Thorsten Wilms