26 May
2005
26 May
'05
6:59 a.m.
VMWare is 1.--expensive, 2.--not designed for real-time work but more for OS
testing, et. al. 3--is not opensourced so you could not play with it even if
you knew how.
There are some alternatives, none of which I have ventured to try:
qemo - open source
zen - open source
Lin4win - less expensive than vmware but restricted to i386.
I'd love to see some of this stuff work with WINE but fewer and fewer sound
things seem to work with it as newer versions come out. Hint. If you try
them, select one of the 32-bit windows models.
26 May
26 May
7:19 p.m.
On Thu, May 26, 2005 at 01:59:19PM +0300, David Baron wrote:
There are some alternatives, none of which I have
ventured to try:
qemo - open source
zen - open source
Lin4win - less expensive than vmware but restricted to i386.
Thanks! I'll look into the alternatives. Unfortuantely, I'm fairly
sure that Xen requires client OS support, so Windows is probably a
no-go. But I had forgotten all about Lin4Win. Does anyone have
promising reports on that?
I'd love to see some of this stuff work with WINE
but fewer and fewer sound
things seem to work with it as newer versions come out. Hint. If you try
them, select one of the 32-bit windows models.
Agreed. Cakewalk has very bizarre font problems under Wine. It only
works if I only install the Notation font. Any text fonts cause it to
crash. Very weird..
--
Ross Vandegrift
ross(a)lug.udel.edu
"The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who
make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians
have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine
man in the bonds of Hell."
--St. Augustine, De Genesi ad Litteram, Book II, xviii, 37
1 Jun
1 Jun
3:36 a.m.
ross(a)jose.lug.udel.edu wrote:
On Thu, May 26, 2005 at 01:59:19PM +0300, David Baron
wrote:
I had a similar problem to run my favorite Windows apps (SONAR and
Rebirth) on Linux. Wine doesn't work at all for SONAR, and Cakewalk
developers are not going to work in this direction. Most open source
virtual machines are Linux-only and do not support Windows as guest OS
(Xen, plex86, ...). The results with Qemu were not good at all -- very
bad performance in fact. The best result I have got is with VMWare.
Actually, I am able to run SONAR very well in VMWare: no dropout,
adequate performance (you won't get the same track count as with native
Windows, though). This is the only working solution I found. However,
the audio support in VMWare is minimalistic: no MIDI and emulated audio
I/O is a SB16 PCI (one stereo pair, 16 bits, 44.1kHz -- no 24/96, no
multi-I/O, but there are WDM drivers).
I tried various solution for MIDI. Bad results with OSC/UDP (bad timing,
too much jitter). Bad results with KeyKit. Finally, I found a much
better (no network) MIDI solution: I install a MIDI/serial driver in
Windows, I configure a serial/named pipe in VMWare, and I wrote a small
named-pipe-to-alsa bridge; this solution works, good timing, low jitter.
The only drawback is that I get only one MIDI port (the Roland
MIDI/serial driver I use doesn't support multiple ports), but I guess I
may find another driver that supports multiple ports.
You can download a demo of VMWare and make yourself your opinion about
its use for audio. I will release shortly my MIDI bridge. I am even
considering writing a Jack backend for VMWareDSP, but don't hold your
breath for it.
Hope it helps.
-a.
There are some alternatives, none of which I have
ventured to try:
qemo - open source
zen - open source
Lin4win - less expensive than vmware but restricted to i386.
Thanks! I'll look into the alternatives. Unfortuantely, I'm fairly
sure that Xen requires client OS support, so Windows is probably a
no-go. But I had forgotten all about Lin4Win. Does anyone have
promising reports on that?
6:16 p.m.
On Wed, Jun 01, 2005 at 09:37:59AM +0200, Alexandre DENIS wrote:
I tried various solution for MIDI. Bad results with
OSC/UDP (bad timing,
too much jitter). Bad results with KeyKit. Finally, I found a much
better (no network) MIDI solution: I install a MIDI/serial driver in
Windows, I configure a serial/named pipe in VMWare, and I wrote a small
named-pipe-to-alsa bridge; this solution works, good timing, low jitter.
The only drawback is that I get only one MIDI port (the Roland
MIDI/serial driver I use doesn't support multiple ports), but I guess I
may find another driver that supports multiple ports.
Do you have your Midi code online somewhere that I can use? I have
the VMWare demo installed and have it setup with Cakewalk.
Unfortunately, without MIDI, it's worthless. But I'd love to try
your setup - sounds smart!
Let me know!
--
Ross Vandegrift
ross(a)lug.udel.edu
"The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who
make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians
have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine
man in the bonds of Hell."
--St. Augustine, De Genesi ad Litteram, Book II, xviii, 37
4 Jun
4 Jun
5:30 p.m.
On Wed, 2005-06-01 at 18:16 -0400, ross(a)jose.lug.udel.edu wrote:
On Wed, Jun 01, 2005 at 09:37:59AM +0200, Alexandre
DENIS wrote:
Sorry, I think you're trying to bang a square peg into a round hole.
VMWare obviously was not designed for serious audio use, why would you
expect it to work?
Why can't you use Wine again?
Lee
I tried various solution for MIDI. Bad results
with OSC/UDP (bad timing,
too much jitter). Bad results with KeyKit. Finally, I found a much
better (no network) MIDI solution: I install a MIDI/serial driver in
Windows, I configure a serial/named pipe in VMWare, and I wrote a small
named-pipe-to-alsa bridge; this solution works, good timing, low jitter.
The only drawback is that I get only one MIDI port (the Roland
MIDI/serial driver I use doesn't support multiple ports), but I guess I
may find another driver that supports multiple ports.
Do you have your Midi code online somewhere that I can use? I have
the VMWare demo installed and have it setup with Cakewalk.
Unfortunately, without MIDI, it's worthless. But I'd love to try
your setup - sounds smart!
8:08 p.m.
ross(a)jose.lug.udel.edu wrote:
Do you have your Midi code online somewhere that I can
use? I have
the VMWare demo installed and have it setup with Cakewalk.
Unfortunately, without MIDI, it's worthless. But I'd love to try
your setup - sounds smart!
Let me know!
It is now online:
http://www.alexandredenis.net/linuxaudio/vmmidi-0.1.tar.gz
8:17 p.m.
Lee Revell wrote:
VMWare obviously was not designed for serious audio
use, why would you
expect it to work?
Neither is Wine.
VMware is the only working solution I found; not very fast, but working.
Other solutions don't start SONAR at all.
Why can't you use Wine again?
I'm still using Rebirth and Cakewalk SONAR (lots of projects in .cwp
format). Neither of them will run in Wine.
-a.
8:36 p.m.
On Sun, 2005-06-05 at 02:19 +0200, Alexandre DENIS wrote:
Lee Revell wrote:
Wine, being open source, is designed to do whatever the developers want
it to, whereas VMWare is a commercial closed source product with a
different target market, so there's absolutely no incentive for them to
make the sound work any better than it does now. There's at least a
chance of fixing the problem with Wine.
VMWare obviously was not designed for serious
audio use, why would you
expect it to work?
Neither is Wine.
VMware is the only working solution I found; not very
fast, but working.
Other solutions don't start SONAR at all.
Well, what do the Wine people say about it? Did you submit a bug
report?
Lee
Why can't you use Wine again?
I'm still using Rebirth and Cakewalk SONAR (lots of projects in .cwp
format). Neither of them will run in Wine. 
9:19 p.m.
Well, what do the Wine people say about it? Did you
submit a bug
report?
certain things just arent implemented in WINE, or cause frequent app freezes. although it
is the best (free) bet since it has a JACK backend (does this work?)..but we should be
looking at why one would want to use SONAR anyways (as opposed to WIRED/Seq24/Ardour) .. i
think if ardour added per-clip fx chains id be willing to ditch samplitude, as for the
others, no idea - none of the commmercial software including Live 5.0 has any inkling of
OSC suppport, and change doesnt seem imminent with steinYamaha's continuing hegemony
on the archaic VST standard...
Lee
5 Jun
5 Jun
1:16 a.m.
On Sat, Jun 04, 2005 at 04:58:35PM -0400, Lee Revell wrote:
Why can't you use Wine again?
It looks like contemporary versions of Wine have some oddness in their
handling of fonts.
If I do a default installation of Cakewalk, it crashes upon startup.
I read on winehq.com this is often due to font mapping issues that
have failed to install Cakewalk's music notation TrueType Font. The
suggested solution is to copy the .ttf to $wineroot/windows/fonts.
After doing this copy, Cakewalk starts and runs properly!
Unfortuantely, it uses the musical notation font for everything. I've
tried a couple of font hacks to get around this. Anything I do that
makes the default Windows fonts available again, BOOM, Cakewalk
crashes on startup.
And no, I didn't submit a bug to Wine - it's documented in their app
database, and has been since last Feb. The point of me writing music
is to write *music*, not software. Everytime I try to get my
composition environment running again, I end up getting sucked into
the software, so I thought I'd try a different tact. I'm trying to
avoid moving back to dual booting, or buying another computer.
At this point, Alexandre's work is my last hope.
--
Ross Vandegrift
ross(a)lug.udel.edu
"The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who
make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians
have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine
man in the bonds of Hell."
--St. Augustine, De Genesi ad Litteram, Book II, xviii, 37
6 Jun
6 Jun
6:27 p.m.
ix(a)replic.net wrote:
More precisely, Wine is always one step behind. When Cakewalk needed NT4
emulation, Wine was good at running old win95 versions of Cakewalk; now
that SONAR requires XP, Wine can hardly run old NT4 versions.
Running SONAR with Wine has been discussed many times on winhq and even
on the Cakewalk forum. No luck, they are doing native Windows software
and are not willing to do any effort to help SONAR run with Wine.
Well, what do
the Wine people say about it? Did you submit a bug
report?
certain things just arent implemented in WINE, or cause frequent app
freezes. but we should be looking at why one would
want to use SONAR anyways
I have used a dual-boot system for a long time: Windows for audio, Linux
for anything else. Now, I want to switch to Linux even for audio, but
I'm still in a transitional phase. I have been a Cakewalk user for 15
years since my old Cakewalk Apprentice, and thus I have accumulated a
lot of audio work in Cakewalk format (not readable in any Linux
software), with tracks using the Cakewalk Direct X plugins (Direct X,
not VST, so no jack_fst or whatever).
I know that using proprietary software sucks --that's why I am migrating
to Linux even for audio-- but the transition is not as easy as I wanted.
Using VMware is the only solution that actually works among my numerous
tests. The second most promising solution is Qemu. Maybe I should try
harder with Qemu instead of VMware.
-a.
7:11 p.m.
Alexandre DENIS wrote:
ix(a)replic.net wrote:
More precisely, Wine is always one step behind. When Cakewalk needed
NT4 emulation, Wine was good at running old win95 versions of
Cakewalk; now that SONAR requires XP, Wine can hardly run old NT4
versions.
Running SONAR with Wine has been discussed many times on winhq and
even on the Cakewalk forum. No luck, they are doing native Windows
software and are not willing to do any effort to help SONAR run with
Wine.
Ya gotta use what ya gotta use! I too have been a Cakewalk user for
several years now. Personally, over all for sequencing, recording, etc,
I think it's the most user friendly and solid Windows based audio app
out there. I am at a point where I'm now seeing the possibility of
transitioning all audio work to Linux but the sequencing side,
particulaly midi remixed play back with soft synths, Muse and Rosegarden
are not there yet. They are significantly closer than say 18mths ago so
I know the time will come. However, I rely on this stuff In a live
medium...that in which time is compressed into nano seconds and "dead
air" can culminate in the throwing of semi full beer bottles at the
chicken wire! And trying to esplain the magnitude of open source upsides
is lost on "Killer, the beer swilling redneck" as to why I'm not playin
"Fank Gawd I'm a country boy" or "I'm a Line man fer the
kounty" right
freakin NOW~
A colorful, yet VERY real description for those who have / still play
the gig wherever it may be. Sonar has never let me down in that
department.
My hope is that Muse / Rosegarden / Wired will be stable and intuitive
enough to allow me to do this from an all Linux platform in a live
scenario without risk by the end of this year...if not, the end of next
year...whatever.
It's not a crime to use Windows based applications if you so choose. And
it's almost saint like (?) to be enthusiastically involved in Linux
audio to help breed some stiff competition for the "Almost only game in
town" proprietary based world.
Well,
what do the Wine people say about it? Did you submit a bug
report?
certain things just arent implemented in WINE, or cause frequent app
freezes. but we should be looking at why one would
want to use SONAR anyways
I have used a dual-boot system for a long time: Windows for audio,
Linux for anything else. Now, I want to switch to Linux even for
audio, but I'm still in a transitional phase. I have been a Cakewalk
user for 15 years since my old Cakewalk Apprentice, and thus I have
accumulated a lot of audio work in Cakewalk format (not readable in
any Linux software), with tracks using the Cakewalk Direct X plugins
(Direct X, not VST, so no jack_fst or whatever).
I know that using proprietary software sucks --that's why I am
migrating to Linux even for audio-- but the transition is not as easy
as I wanted. Using VMware is the only solution that actually works
among my numerous tests. The second most promising solution is Qemu.
Maybe I should try harder with Qemu instead of VMware.
-a.
7 Jun
7 Jun
12:52 a.m.
On Tue, Jun 07, 2005 at 12:29:47AM +0200, Alexandre DENIS wrote:
I have used a dual-boot system for a long time:
Windows for audio, Linux
for anything else. Now, I want to switch to Linux even for audio, but
I'm still in a transitional phase. I have been a Cakewalk user for 15
years since my old Cakewalk Apprentice, and thus I have accumulated a
lot of audio work in Cakewalk format (not readable in any Linux
software), with tracks using the Cakewalk Direct X plugins (Direct X,
not VST, so no jack_fst or whatever).
To avoid the dual-boot scenario again, I'm thinking about acquiring
another box in the coming months. My plan goes like this:
1) buy small box that is MIDI capable and has SPDIF out
2) Replace my Delta44 with something that has SPDIF
3) Hook up all my instruments to the new Windows machine with Cakewalk
4) Hook all the audio up to my Gnu/Linux box with Ardour/soft synths
5) Link the two boxes via MIDI
It'll be a bummer to have to go back to Windows, but cakewalk not only
have my favorite notation editor that I've ever used, but also the
only one I ever found remotely usable for composition. The
combination will let me use all the fabulous soft synths and Ardour
though.
Hopefully it'll be transitory until Rosegarden's notation editor
improves, but I think it'll let me get back to music. Now if I just
had money to throw around at machines.... ::-)
--
Ross Vandegrift
ross(a)lug.udel.edu
"The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who
make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians
have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine
man in the bonds of Hell."
--St. Augustine, De Genesi ad Litteram, Book II, xviii, 37
4:33 a.m.
Hi
Very well put!!
I think your brave to consider Linux here in a live environment .
It will get better and as we all help out by using/testing/feedback, it
will develop faster than cakewalk and others.
Thing is will cakewalk survive?
It seems there will be more consolidation in the music market and not
always the best software survives.
Will Sonar still be here?
I think a lot of the propriety software arguments forget this.
If the company is bought out, thats it, gone.
It may survive in name only but normally the stuff you bought it for is
changed.
Just my 2p's worth
bob
On Mon, 2005-06-06 at 16:14 -0500, Russell Hanaghan wrote:
It's not a crime to use Windows based applications
if you so choose.
And
it's almost saint like (?) to be enthusiastically involved in Linux
audio to help breed some stiff competition for the "Almost only game
in
town" proprietary based world.
6904
days inactive
6916
days old
linux-audio-user@lists.linuxaudio.org
13 comments
7 participants
participants (7)
-
Alexandre DENIS -
David Baron -
Frank smith -
ix＠replic.net -
Lee Revell -
ross＠jose.lug.udel.edu -
Russell Hanaghan