Hi, Gerasimos Grammatikopoulos hat gesagt: // Gerasimos Grammatikopoulos wrote: I think, Ableton's Live is cooler :) I only run Linux, but I envy my Mac/W32 friends for being able to use Live... ciao -- Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__

On Fri, Dec 06, 2002 at 09:12:19PM +0100, Gerasimos Grammatikopoulos wrote: Well, it's also not intended as an ACID-workalike. Ardour is aiming to be a full-featured DAW / hard disk recorder. You can loop stuff on it, but that's not its reason for being. It's also still pre-alpha, so using ardour is for the adventurous. I'm feeling adventurous, just got it compiled and installed for the first time in ages, so I'll be trying to lay down some tracks tonight. :) -- Paul Winkler http://www.slinkp.com "Welcome to Muppet Labs, where the future is made - today!"

Acid lets you use a paint brush to paint in audio tracks, but with Ardour supporting pitch and beat manipulations its starting to get some of the features that acid uses, anyone with extra $$ should donate to Paul so he can keep developing, ardour is one of the best all around linux apps. Muse also has some similar features. http://www.brianredfern.org On Sat, 7 Dec 2002, Linium wrote:

Patrick, Most of the time I agree a lot with your points of view, but this time I really don't. I see no reason to force people into a U*ix paradigm, nor do I see the need to be insistent that Linux audio apps act differently that Windows or Mac apps that do a great job at what they are intended to do.In this case Acid is one of those apps, and I think at this time the answer is 'No, we do not yet have a native Linux app that works that way. Acid is a great app. I've done songs in it. It's amazingly simple, straight forward as long as all you are doing is manipulating the timing of samples, and really pretty easy to get from start to finish. I see nothing wrong with those qualities. In fact, if the developers of Acid DID port it to Linux, then it would be a Linux app, and that would break your model stating he should get used to a new mindset. While I have nothing against new mindsets, I don't think that they are always required. There's nothing wrong with Linux apps following a successful model and making apps that are easy for people to use either! Just my two cents. If we were closer I would have said it over a beer. ;-) Have a great weekend! Mark On Sun, 2002-12-08 at 00:45, Patrick Shirkey wrote:

On Sun, 2002-12-08 at 18:44, Patrick Shirkey wrote: Oh, real men don't run GUI's?! ;-) No, we do not. I haven't seen anything (yet) that provides a similar paradigm to the way Acid works with wave files. (And I do run Acid.) (2.0, 3.0 & 4.0) The Acid paradigm is that a track holds just a single wave file. Usually that wave file is only 1-2 measures, but it can be more. It can be cut to less within the track. There are an unlimited number of tracks.There is a tempo for the overall piece. When you paint the wave file in, it just paints in whatever part of the wave file you want at that point in the track.One wave file is some drum beats, one is some keyboard riff, another is some vocal bit. You just paint them in where you want them. If you know what you want, and if you have the sample library, you get a full blown song in about 10 minutes. I have not seen (yet) anything in the Linux area that does this at this time. That said, I completely disagree with the comments above about Unix vs. whatever. Ardour _could_ implement this model. Rosegarden _could_ implement this model. Sweep _could_ implement this model. Muse _could_ implement this model. Apps are apps. Platforms are platforms. No need to mix them up. No need to be bigoted about them either. They're just tools. No need, but an opportunity. Different people work different ways. Just because software has been provided is no requirement that people use it. Let's not confuse what's important. We're here to make music. If someone wants a new app, and has the talent to develop it, I would guess it will appear here. That's what makes this place fun.

The only thing we don't have is this painting concept. I agree that could be a useful addition ;) [MWK] To be an Acid 2.0 interface I think you're about right. Even Acid 2.0 was very powerful in this respect. I don't understand from your description how you choose the sample which will be painted in. Is it automatic based on the location in the strip or do you have to pick it from a list before you start brushing and it will be rendered (from the start of the sample ??) wherever you choose? [MWK] No, as I said before, each 'track' in Acid will paint only ONE wave file. When you create a 'track', you chose a single wave file, and that's the only file that this track will paint. Since Acid supports (in theory) unlimited tracks, you can choose additional wave files and paint them in their own tracks. I think the programming logic of each track is almost trivial. It holds a pointer to only this single wave file, and a time to start and stop playing it. You can paint multiple copies of the same wave file in the track, but only one copy can exist at any point. (I.e. - there is no wave mixing or muxing inside the track itself. That all happens outside in some mixer. There are other edit features in the track, but let's get a Linux app that does this much first. Let me know if this needs more clarification.[/MWK] [MWK]An 'Acidized sample' is a wave file that is already trimmed for the right stop/start points and it a specific tempo. Acid has features for taking a longer wave file and extracting out Acidized samples, but we don't need that for the short term as there are hundreds of existing libraries that already have this. An Acid user typically doesn't want to get that dirty when they first use the program. They just want to take their samples and put the songs together quickly. Later they will use these features to build their own sample libraries, but the power of the Sound Forge marketing strategy is that you don't have to. They sell the libraries and make lots of money that way.[/MWK]

Nathaniel Virgo wrote: Never thought of doing that but I'll put it on the burner :) -- Patrick Shirkey - Boost Hardware Ltd. For the discerning hardware connoisseur Http://www.boosthardware.com Http://www.djcj.org - The Linux Audio Users guide ======================================== Being on stage with the band in front of crowds shouting, "Get off! No! We want normal music!", I think that was more like acting than anything I've ever done. Goldie, 8 Nov, 2002 The Scotsman

Patrick: The actual idea of JACK is why music on linux could be so more powerful than on, say, windows. For example if I could load both a powerful midi sequencer like cubase and a great loop tool like acid, synchronise them and make them work happily together that would be the end of it all! However, although the idea is here and most of the necessary framework under the hood, we are still pretty much missing the seats, steering wheel and pedals for the linux music car. To simply say that "that's it, you can still guide it with a stick if you take time to learn how" is not very appealing to me. Heh, I've seen and heard great music coming out of a demo for Matlab (yes that extremely powerful matrix app) but that doesn't mean I should use Matlab (or Octave? Yikes!!) to make music. Heh, I feel pitty for the guy that actually did it -- it must have been pure hell to describe music in mathematical terms. The fact is that ACID offers a very powerful and still extremely easy and fast paradigm. Perhaps because they went the other way around: instead of building a do-it-all, have-it-all app and then try to make it reasonably operable by ppl that don't know what happens under its hood they first built some kiddy stuff (he who has ever tried the 1.0 version knows that well :-P) and then steadily increase features and power. Right now, ACID 4 supports ASIO, DX, VSTi softsynths, midi I/O, routing in and out on anything available by your hardware, effects automation.... give it a score support and will beat anything hands down (maybe we'll see that on version 5?). Now, don't get me wrong... I'm not saying that what we need is a mega-app that does everything. As a matter of fact, the way JACK can offer "modularization" over the windows paradigm of a "big container" app that anything to be loaded must be compliant on very specific rules is a lot more flexible and powerful. The problem is that we don't have that much to put on that big "rack" that JACK provides us. Or, at least, we don't have much of it working the way ACID does.... "painting" music. On most other aspects of a Un*x workstation I agree with you that the paradigm of click-and-go comes very short of the power many linux UIs (both graphic and textual) offer you. But granular control is not always the best feature... To make another example: I suppose you all know of gimp - I personally love it. Now, gimp offers far less control of say a hypothetical app that controls all atributes pixel by pixel... But I'll go for gimp ANY time! You see, when we are talking about artistic creation what counts is that the app helps the artist put down on the screen/paper or his speakers what is in his head. Now that's a personal opinion, but an app more granular than what I need to make it look/sound good is only getting in the way of expressing myself. It's not a feature any more, it's an harrassment. By the time I lay everything down as it should what I was thinking of would be long gone. Yes, you've guessed right, CSound would be completely useless for me. Call me dumb, but I simply can't "connect" to this way of thinking. I've done my share of perl programming so I'm not a complete "virgin" in the coding area. Yet programming and artistic expression have no sharing fields in my mind. And I don't think that I'm alone on this one. If someone told me "hey, what do you expect? there is only a given number of open source programmers familiar with the specific pains of music apps. Now either contribute or shut up" I'd have to agree with him. But saying that music apps in linux/Unix _must_ be tougher to use than their counterparts in other OSes is IMHO simply wrong. Cheers.

Linium wrote: Just because they got there first does not mean they originated the concept. JACK is simply a way a sharing data between applications in realtime at low latency. That should be a prerequisite for any serious digital musician. Saying JACK is a clone of Rewire is like saying desktop Linux is a clone of windohs or mac. It's buying into the hype. -- Patrick Shirkey - Boost Hardware Ltd. For the discerning hardware connoisseur Http://www.boosthardware.com Http://www.djcj.org - The Linux Audio Users guide ======================================== Being on stage with the band in front of crowds shouting, "Get off! No! We want normal music!", I think that was more like acting than anything I've ever done. Goldie, 8 Nov, 2002 The Scotsman

Well, we're not that far off from this type of functionality as you might think, from what I'm reading of ardour's new features (with pitch and tempo editing), muse/jack/ardour is just about there. There's already soundfont support in muse now, so you can do very complex midi sequencing without the need for external midi gear (and once I'm dont converting the world card sounds in my asrx pro into sound fonts it can go up on ebay!). Rather than more apps what is needed is more volunteers to work on muse and ardour, or if you can't do c/c++, why not donate some $$ to their authors. http://www.brianredfern.org On Sun, 8 Dec 2002, Linium wrote:

On Mon, Dec 09, 2002 at 11:32:34AM +0900, Patrick Shirkey wrote: I think the clever part of Acid is the automatic loop or beat identification. That is a solved problem though, anyone with a bit of signal processing knowledge and a day or two spare could read the literature on the subject and implement the code for that. Then theres the UI ofcourse, but thats another problem. It needs someone with the required skill and who has that itch to scratch. Personally its not very near the top of my itch list, maybe becasue I never used Acid. - Steve

On Mon, Dec 09, 2002 at 10:00:40PM +0900, Patrick Shirkey wrote: I dunno is Acid boes both I just know it does at least one of them. Either way, both are solved problems. You could help by hinting the aproximate BPM I guess, if you wanted it to make it easier on the s/w. - Steve

On Monday 09 December 2002 03:32, Patrick Shirkey wrote: Nothing is hard about those, but they are not offering all the possibilities as of yet - although I'm confident that given the necessary time they will be a fine set of tools. Perhaps I came a bit too harsh but that was not my intention. When you spoke of using musical apps the "un*x way" I thought you were refering to command / list-file based apps and methodologies. If you refer to the Un*x way as the modularization paradigm of independent tools communicating on a bidirectional pipeline (as the one JACK offers), well I couldn't agree more! :-) As I said before, if there is one thing I terribly miss under windows is exactly that power of real-time intercommunication of different, independent apps. In a subthread of this topic there has been mention of ReWire, but I have to agree with the counter-post that ReWire is still based on the "big container to put stuff in" idea, which is a lot more limited than the possibilities of what a generalised "JACKed" environment can offer. You also said that the expectancy of porting windows tools over at linux is very dim if non-existant. Remember when linux was just a playground for coders/hackers (intended with the jargon file meaning, not the mass-media one) with a passion? Look at linux now, in the video-editing scene. In fact, I'm quite optimistic on this: audio and music on linux simply had a later start (perhaps due to a rather prolonged lack of efficient drivers for higher-end soundcards?) than other tasks. I consider Steinberg's stance over porting VST to linux was, to use mild words, short-eyed. But we've got LADSPA anyway... Give some skilled synth&FX developers some time credit and we will have powerful stuff in our hands (there are already some very nice ones around). Let's get back to the original poster's question: "is there an analogous of what AND how to do stuff with ACID in linux?" The answer is "not as of yet, at least not fully. But it's getting there...."

Brian, I disagree that Ardour is the right place to put Acid functionality. Ardour should continue down the path it's going, which will make it a great replacement for Pro Tools type requirements. IMO Acid functionality would be better placed in some other app, or being spawned as a new app. Mark -----Original Message----- From: linux-audio-user-admin(a)music.columbia.edu [mailto:linux-audio-user-admin@music.columbia.edu]On Behalf Of Brian Redfern Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 11:04 AM To: linux-audio-user(a)music.columbia.edu Subject: Re: [linux-audio-user] Acid for Linux ? I think ardour is really getting closest to an acid clode, I used to use acid and came up with some very nice tunes a few years ago, so I know the interface well, terminatorX had some of its features, but it a loop player, while Acid lets you paint loops in with a little brush. If you really want to see that functionality, send Paul Davis a generous donation so he can keep working on ardour! tX does have automated beatmatching capability and can alter both tempo and pitch, it really has some features that Acid lacks, but its really for playing back loops or tracks and scratching/djing, rather than sequencing loops and sample hits. For me, I thought that acid is a little too easy, I like actually writing the music note by note, rather than relying on other people's loops, but for quite some time I have just been using lots of outboard synths and just used linux to record and master cd's. I'm finally getting muse to work and am looking at going "all linux", or just using iiwu and soundfonts, using muse to track and using jack/ardour to record, edit and master. Of course using outboard gear is easier, I can make up complete tracks with my korg electribe M in mere minutes, but at the same time my tracks will sound similar to all the other electribe based tracks being made, while with linux, muse, csound, ladspa, and ardour there's the oppurtunity to create a more unique, signature sound. http://www.brianredfern.org On Mon, 9 Dec 2002, Patrick Shirkey wrote: number of Now that

On Mon, 2002-12-09 at 12:28, Brian Redfern wrote: Thi is not true. You cannot modify a wave file's 'pitch' in Ardour, to the best of my knowledge. I doubt you can actually modify the tempo of an audio segment in Ardour. We just added tempo support. and you have a multitrack layout, I don't think Ardour should Yes, but every multi-track sort of app today might be able to say this. I don't Yes, this is true, but also true for Muse or Rosegarden also. but with the ability to edit a samples I just don't see that adding this paintbrush capability to Ardour would help the main user base of Ardour at all, but maybe I'm missing something.

On Tue, 10 Dec 2002 11:25, you wrote: Could make two audiotracks and have the output of one feeding the input of the other, then change the speed of the diskstream while recording to the second audiotrack? or is that what you mean by no direct support. I would of thought the paintbrush idea wouldn't be that hard to implement in ardour, just make a new MouseMode and have whatever region is highlighted in the region list inserted at the frame corresponding to the point at which the mouse is clicked. But I guess it's more complicated than that. I haven't used acid since version 1.0 or perhaps 2.0 so I'm not entirely sure how it works.

in in the used works. Well, it may be just that easy. Having a mouse-mode like that could make the region inserting process a little less painful. But what else could that mouse mode do...... [MWK] This part of the process in Acid is actually pretty intuitive. Think of the idea that when you insert a wave file at measure 4, your paintbrush is 'opening a window shade that covers the wave file'. The wave file is inserted, and proceeds on to the right, but you don't see it. As you then drag your mouse to the right, you uncover a portion of the wave file, which becomes the part you hear. Where Acid is more interesting in this regard is that if the wave file is 'Acidized', meaning it carries some sort of tempo and length information, then eventually you will get to the end of the 2-bar or 4-bar pattern. If you continue to drag you mouse to the right, you begin repeating the same wave file. therefore, you can have a 4-bar drum pattern. You drag to the right 16 bars, and Acid draw in the same drum pattern 4 times. Again, remember that in this model there is only one wave file per track. It just gets repeated as necessary. However, you can insert new copies at odd time points, or start in the middle of the existing wave file in the middle of the file somewhere, by using different editing functions. It is important that Acidized wave file be well 'cut' at the loop point, since the start of the second copy of the pattern must play cleanly from the end of the first copy without any clicks and pops. This is NOT and Acid issue, per se, but an Acid Library issue.

Steve, Not only that, but better to have app developers that are passionate about the app they are developing. Shoving Acid-type operation into an existing app from the outside should never happen. Having a developer choose to pull it in is totally different. Mark -----Original Message----- From: linux-audio-user-admin(a)music.columbia.edu [mailto:linux-audio-user-admin@music.columbia.edu]On Behalf Of Steve Harris Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 1:24 PM To: linux-audio-user(a)music.columbia.edu Subject: Re: [linux-audio-user] Acid for Linux ? On Mon, Dec 09, 2002 at 12:04:18 -0800, Mark Knecht wrote: being Agreed, I dont like all encompassing apps, better to have samller targetted apps. - Steve

Just some ideas for you... Actually, the pitch modification part is handled quite nicely here in Linuxland by freqtweak. However, to date freqtweak is pretty static in terms of how it manipulates frequency over time. Acid has the ability to shift samples by known amounts, so that if I have a bass line in C, I can shift it up a major 4th to F and it will fit into the sound quite easily. This function in Acid works pretty well over a limited range, say +/- a major 6th, but starts to fall apart pretty badly at an octave, in my experience. (It depends a lot on the library.) Until this morning I hadn't considered using freqtweak to accomplish the same thing. Today I would have to take an input wave file for the base line, then shift it appropriately and write it back to disk as a separate wave file, using more disk space and creating more problems at the app level dealing with yet another wave file to be read and played back. Maybe a future development might be freqtweak itself, but: 1) Modified to be a ladspa plugin 2) Modified to have some built in mechanism to step the frequencies up and down by known amounts 3) Having a way to call those frequency changes through an API Some sort of feature set in this general space would go a long way towards accomplishing what you can do today with pitch manipulation in Acid. Just some ideas for you... -----Original Message----- From: linux-audio-user-admin(a)music.columbia.edu [mailto:linux-audio-user-admin@music.columbia.edu]On Behalf Of Brian Redfern Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 10:53 AM To: linux-audio-user(a)music.columbia.edu Subject: RE: [linux-audio-user] Acid for Linux ? Well, with ladspa one could always make a tempo edit plugin, which would allow one to change the tempo of a sound file that's had the ladspa effect applied. I'm not good enough at c/c++ yet to do that, but ladspa seems to be pretty wide open in terms of the types of effects that could be created. I would think that the functionality in Recyle could be cloned in a ladspa plugin, that way many diverse systems could use the plugin without having to change the UI, as the Acid functionality with "painting in audio" is more of a convenience, the real functionality is its ability to match tempo and pitch of disparate samples. Its really just a time shifting effect that changes tempo without changing pitch. http://www.brianredfern.org On Mon, 9 Dec 2002, Mark Knecht wrote: choose

Mark Knecht wrote on Tue, 10-Dec-2002: This already exists in the form of Steve Harris's "pitch scaler" LADSPA plugins. In fact, the algorithm used in freqtweak is based on the one in Steve's (ripped right out of there in fact). Time-stretching is a showstopper for LADSPA however since #samples must equal #samples out..... I think this has been discussed before.... jlc

Paul, In the situation I was describing, (NOT ADVOCATING!) I would have a track of audio in a tool that looked like an Ardour or Rosegarden audio track. This track would have a wave file that repeats at some regular or irregular interval thus making up part of a song. Assume that the audio is a bass line, recorded in Emaj. It plays at time 0, time 10, time 20, thus making up the song. The ladspa plugin is applied to this track. At time 30 it turns out we want the same bass pattern, but this time played in Amaj. The concept would be that the ladspa plugin (which we now know exists already as per Jesse's recent email) receives a message at time 30 that says 'scale up by a major 4th' and then at time 40 that says 'unscale the sample' or whatever. Now you hear 3 riffs of the original, followed by one riff scaled up. To do this, you need the equivalent of some sort of automation language at the track level so that you can say what you want scaled and when. Each track has to be able to handle this on it's own, since these changes will not all happen at the same time, or the same amount, per track. I agree that it would be possible to leave freqtweak external, and hook the track up using qjc or something, but if I'm running 50 tracks where I'm doing this I think that's too much work. I think that an 'Acid for Linux' type app might just want to have this frequency scaling feature built into every track as it is pretty common to use it in a tool like Acid. Cheers, Mark -----Original Message----- From: linux-audio-user-admin(a)music.columbia.edu [mailto:linux-audio-user-admin@music.columbia.edu]On Behalf Of Paul Winkler Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 1:14 PM To: linux-audio-user(a)music.columbia.edu Subject: Re: [linux-audio-user] Acid for Linux ? - Pitch shift Anyway, I don't see why Freqtweak would need to become a LADSPA plugin since it's already a JACK client.

On Tue, Dec 10, 2002 at 05:20:12 -0500, Jesse Chappell wrote: Shouldn't matter, SMS's pitch scale algorithm should be a null operation if the pitch is set to 1.0. - Steve

On Tue, Dec 10, 2002 at 06:23:33PM -0500, Jesse Chappell wrote: Well, OK ;) I've a feeling its inevitable. It certinaly is bound to happen with buffer based ptichshifters. - Steve

On Wednesday 11 December 2002 02:49, Darren Landrum wrote: They are mostly .wavs, some .mp3s. Acid can also use their proprietary format called .pca (perfect clarity audio - a lossless compression that lives to its name) along with a really impressive bunch of other formats. A loop library in OAL (Open Audio License)? I'd love to contribute! The basic problem is having the Alkali at hands (kudos for the nice name! :) Or at least a modular set of tools (each one called alkalium-something? :-P) BTW, yesterday I noticed something on ACID... It was the first time I rendered a song directly in mp3 with version 4. Ooops, they allow 20 free mp3 encodings then you have to register the encoder (I believe to thomson?). Heh, I'll stick to ogg with acid (and the rest of it too!)

On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 03:23:09 +0100 Gerasimos Grammatikopoulos <dragoon(a)interfree.it> wrote / a écrit: Me too. I play keyboards and have some decents bass, organ and keyboards sound in my set (mainly Roland keyboards). Cheers all Guy CLO~ ------------------------------------- http://perso.wanadoo.fr/guy.clotilde/ -------------------------------------

On Wednesday 11 December 2002 12:56 pm, matthew yee-king wrote: I'm always interested in good free loops...

On Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 10:33 PM, Mark Knecht wrote: Oh, sorry, I must have missed it. And here I was, thinking I was keeping tight track of this thread. :) Absolutely, but I have a feeling that reverse-engineering their proprietary format (mentioned earlier by Gerasimos) would invite legal attack. Now, since this format is used on only *some* Acid libraries, we could still take advantage of other parts of the total libraries available. But the person using them would need to legally buy their own copies. What, an open library of loops, samples, and patches? And yes, a good, high-end sampler would be really nice for Linux. Isn't someone working on one? Again, I'm in agreement. In theory, once you buy a copy of a library, the loops on it become "royalty free" (whatever that means), but I have a feeling there are still strings attached. And as far as I know, the factory patches of any synthesizer can be used in music, whether that be loops or complete songs. And even if they're not, I don't see how Clavia can prevent someone from using their own personal patches for such a use. They made and sold the synthesizer specifically with the intention of it being used on stage and for recordings. First, second, or third? ;) Thanks for the feedback. I think I'll get started on a design for the Open Loop Library idea and present it at some not-too-distant future point. -Darren

On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 09:33:16 -0500 Ron Lavoie <ronlavoie(a)rogers.com> wrote / a écrit: yeah. But take a look at the list of apps before downloading. I was very pleased and hurried to install it on my mdk. Too quickly... I just find out that the apps I wanted wheren't there (Muse, Rosegarden, TerminatorX, soundtracker, rythmaid, cinelarra etc...) The one I liked where ones I had no trouble installing before (dap, ecasound, audacity, sox etc...). Obviously I'm not targeted by this :(( LiGnuxly Guy CLO~ ------------------------------------- http://perso.wanadoo.fr/guy.clotilde/ -------------------------------------

Will we see a .deb package? I finally got tx to work. Haven't had much time to test drive it, though. Nice to be running out of unstable %^). Next, I have to get my EMI 2|6 working...but I'm a bit leery of the firmware update that's required. Will the card still work the same under W2k? I need it there for DJing. -Ron At 08:04 AM 2002-12-11 -0800, you wrote:

That's excellent news. When I first heard about your project, I couldn't see the point of having another Planet CCRMA. But as you're basing it on Mandrake, it offers a real choice. I was considering Red Hat 8.0 for my music system, as a basis for either ReHMudi or Planet CCRMA. But someone who sells distros on CD told me that the Red Hat 8.0 EULA refers to an external document (on the Red Hat website) which keeps changing, and so he felt uncomfortable about redistributing it as free software. I know that Debian is a safer choice in this regard, but I want to work with something that a normal musician could use. I think it's fair to say that Mandrake is further ahead when it comes to user friendliness. Good luck Daniel

No, I'm afraid I went into this without much of a sense (that's a euphemism for "naive") of what the level of interest would be, of course not planning for a slashdotting. If there are those with bandwidth who would like to mirror temporarily, even just in this post-slashdot pinch, that would be appreciated. The University I am hosting at actually forced me to move the page to one of their monster servers this morning, so it should be a bit better now (though our little Mandrake server actually stood its ground and never went down!). Kevin __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com

kevin ernste wrote: does anyone knows where to get the demudi? thanks stefan

The usable version with a nice cd installer isn't coming out till the end of this month, the release got pushed up by a month, the site is http://www.demudi.org http://www.brianredfern.org On Wed, 11 Dec 2002, Stefan Ulbrich wrote:

The shorthand aliases are totally optional. I can't think of an app that won't just run when you type it's name. They are there in addition to the normal program name only as a convenience. Some act as shorthands for common but tedious execution with flags, etc (see "record", for example, it runs arecord with cd quality flags, etc). All of these aliases are listed in /usr/local/lib/ecmcaliases.csh which is sourced whenever you start a new shell. Typing "which <app_name>" will show you any aliasing that is in effect. Kevin __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com

Tim, Acid Loops are importable into Pro Tools so I don't think they are that proprietary. Just mono or stereo wave files with some extra info. Including these loops in Ardour or Rosegarden probably wouldn't be that difficult technically, although Ardour would have to address stereo issue more directly I think. The license agreement for Acid Loops usually says something like "The loops are royalty free for inclusion in music you make. You may not, however distribute them in any other form than a final completed piece of music." Meaning you can't make copies and give them to other Acid users. Personally, I think the libraries are inexpensive enough that people really don't need to do that anyway. The biggest issue that hasn't been addressed here is that the biggest pain with Acid is actually managing the loop library and finding what you need. I've purchased drum loop libraries with 500 loops on a CD. How do you find the right loop to include in your song? This is the biggest problem. There really is no Acid solution today. In the hardware synth world, Roland and others have features on their synths that allow you to find 'similar' sounds, so that when you are working with something close, the box can suggest others. That's cool. With drums, however, you're looking for back beats, fills, stuff that works in a verse or a chorus. It's a big pain in the rear. Some really nifty solution in that area would be really attractive. Mark -----Original Message----- From: linux-audio-user-admin(a)music.columbia.edu [mailto:linux-audio-user-admin@music.columbia.edu]On Behalf Of Darren Landrum Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 10:40 PM To: linux-audio-user(a)music.columbia.edu Subject: Re: [linux-audio-user] Acid for Linux ? - Pitch shift On Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 10:33 PM, Mark Knecht wrote: Oh, sorry, I must have missed it. And here I was, thinking I was keeping tight track of this thread. :) Absolutely, but I have a feeling that reverse-engineering their proprietary format (mentioned earlier by Gerasimos) would invite legal attack. Now, since this format is used on only *some* Acid libraries, we could still take advantage of other parts of the total libraries available. But the person using them would need to legally buy their own copies. What, an open library of loops, samples, and patches? And yes, a good, high-end sampler would be really nice for Linux. Isn't someone working on one? Again, I'm in agreement. In theory, once you buy a copy of a library, the loops on it become "royalty free" (whatever that means), but I have a feeling there are still strings attached. And as far as I know, the factory patches of any synthesizer can be used in music, whether that be loops or complete songs. And even if they're not, I don't see how Clavia can prevent someone from using their own personal patches for such a use. They made and sold the synthesizer specifically with the intention of it being used on stage and for recordings. First, second, or third? ;) Thanks for the feedback. I think I'll get started on a design for the Open Loop Library idea and present it at some not-too-distant future point. -Darren

Mark Knecht wrote: Hence the existence of session musicians who will play for a whole night if you smoke em out and get them a few drinks. Some of these creatures don't even require liquidation I'm told -- Patrick Shirkey - Boost Hardware Ltd. For the discerning hardware connoisseur Http://www.boosthardware.com Http://www.djcj.org - The Linux Audio Users guide ======================================== Being on stage with the band in front of crowds shouting, "Get off! No! We want normal music!", I think that was more like acting than anything I've ever done. Goldie, 8 Nov, 2002 The Scotsman

Right, I guess I'm really ignorant about the details of LADSPA, and Jack for that matter, so I need to do my homework before I comment. That being said an acid clone would be a wonderful thing, but forcing an existing program to become an acid clone ain't happening. I would bet one could put together a pd patch that could beat/pitch match/edit, I've already done real-time pitch shifting with pd and its works very well in realtime. http://www.brianredfern.org On Tue, 10 Dec 2002, Paul Winkler wrote:

That's why they put out the "loops for acid' libraries, which I have used to good effect with terminatorX. tX already has beatmatching, you just don't sequence loops with it, but rather load multiple loops which you can trigger against each other. One track is set as the master and all the others get their tempo tweaked to match it. So when I use the loops for acid it works very well, cause the files are cut to match up already. http://www.brianredfern.org On Tue, 10 Dec 2002, Mark Knecht wrote:

On Mon, Dec 09, 2002 at 11:04:28AM -0800, Brian Redfern wrote: heheheh... The gods must be paying attention. Tim Mayberry just posted a patch on ardour-dev, and Paul D. has agreed to it. Tim's description of his patch: <blockquote> The following patch introduces a new mouse mode called "Brush", It could use some improvement in it's operation but as is, is useful to me ... **SNIP** The following is a description of how it works at present. The brush tool is a mouse mode that is used to insert a region or series of regions at a certain frame within the playlist of an audiotrack. If there is a region selected in the region list and mouse button one is clicked without any mouse movement over an audiotrack, one region will be inserted at the corresponding frame. If mouse button one is clicked in an audiotrack and the mouse is dragged so a selection is made, then the selection will be filled with as many whole copies of the region that will fit within the selection. Holding down the ctrl key while making a selection will totally fill the selection with copies of the region selected in the region list even if the selection is smaller than the length of the region. </blockquote> This doesn't provide automatic beatmatching or time stretching, but it's very cool nonetheless. -- Paul Winkler http://www.slinkp.com "Welcome to Muppet Labs, where the future is made - today!" Look! Up in the sky! It's MAGNETO- ZOMBIE OF CHAOS! (courtesy of isometric.spaceninja.com)

Ardour has some of the same capabilites, now you can change tempo and pitch, but its very hard to get it installed still, I'm still working on tweaking my system so I can run ardour. http://www.brianredfern.org On Fri, 6 Dec 2002, Gerasimos Grammatikopoulos wrote: