[linux-audio-user] Re: sound & midi applications page, was Re: [Consortium] linuxaudio.org
31 Jan
2004
31 Jan
'04
5:39 p.m.
Note: I'm moving this thread to linux-audio-user,
because I think that's where this particular discussion belongs
since the intention is to serve linux audio users.
The topic is: a site to replace Dave Phillips' venerable,
labor-intensive, hand-maintained sound applications page.
It must allow visitors to easily add, update, and correct
entries for linux audio/music apps.
Probably also user reviews & commentary on applications.
This site may or may not end up affiliated with the
emerging linuxaudio.org website(s), it's too early to say.
So it doesn't seem appropriate to keep this discussion
on the consortium_p list.
On Sat, Jan 31, 2004 at 04:34:14PM +0100, Andrea Glorioso wrote:
Paul Winkler <pw_lists(a)slinkp.com> writes:
> We discussed some requirements a long time ago on LAD and/or LAU,
> I forget. I put up a quick mockup on my website and have done nothing
> since then.
(snip)
Paul, did the server wake up?
yes, I had exceeded my disk quota. Upgraded my account and all's well.
summary and links:
http://www.slinkp.com/linux/soundapp_site_roughs/
Rough mock-up of a typical page:
http://www.slinkp.com/linux/soundapp_site_roughs/app_entry.html
I'm curious to see the current state of
affairs (so that we can direct people who visit the "applications"
page at www.agnula.org to this site :) and of course help where we
can).
Help at this point would consist of:
1. Refining the requirements for an app-listing site,
in terms of features and user interface.
2. Suggestions for a name for the site
3. Improved visual design. This should come after
the requirements are worked out.
4. Improved app categorization.
There were some comments suggesting that Dave's old
categories can be improved.
This can always evolve, but it would be nice to
have a good starting point.
To keep this discussion from getting confused, I will follow up with
separate messages targeting points 1 and 2.
--
Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
Look! Up in the sky! It's SUPERVISOR SPARK!
(random hero from isometric.spaceninja.com)
31 Jan
31 Jan
5:56 p.m.
Greetings:
I want to add here that Paul's project certainly has my blessings. We
all know how badly the site needs redesigned,
and Paul is aware that I'm not going to put the time into learning a
better content management system. I'd like to, but
my time is severely limited and I have to be doing other things.
IIRC, we also discerned that one of the first tasks would be the
establishment of a backend database from the existing links
and categories (which I would like to see redefined too). The URLs would
need culled and organized: I don't think this would
be a terribly difficult first step, maybe a good Perl script can do it ?
Is PW not a Perlmeister ?? ;)
At any rate, if anyone else wants to redefine the Linux soundapps
pages, please contact me about it. This
message is simply to state that PW and I have corresponded about such a
development, that there is a historical context
to his quoted remarks, and that I support the effort.
Best regards,
dp
PS: I released a new edition a couple of days ago. Too busy/lazy to
announce it...
Paul Winkler wrote:
Note: I'm moving this thread to linux-audio-user,
because I think that's where this particular discussion belongs
since the intention is to serve linux audio users.
The topic is: a site to replace Dave Phillips' venerable,
labor-intensive, hand-maintained sound applications page.
It must allow visitors to easily add, update, and correct
entries for linux audio/music apps.
Probably also user reviews & commentary on applications.
This site may or may not end up affiliated with the
emerging linuxaudio.org website(s), it's too early to say.
So it doesn't seem appropriate to keep this discussion
on the consortium_p list.
On Sat, Jan 31, 2004 at 04:34:14PM +0100, Andrea Glorioso wrote:
Paul Winkler <pw_lists(a)slinkp.com> writes:
>We discussed some requirements a long time ago on LAD and/or LAU,
>I forget. I put up a quick mockup on my website and have done nothing
>since then.
>
>
(snip)
Paul, did the server wake up?
yes, I had exceeded my disk quota. Upgraded my account and all's well.
summary and links:
http://www.slinkp.com/linux/soundapp_site_roughs/
Rough mock-up of a typical page:
http://www.slinkp.com/linux/soundapp_site_roughs/app_entry.html
I'm curious to see the current state of
affairs (so that we can direct people who visit the "applications"
page at www.agnula.org to this site :) and of course help where we
can).
Help at this point would consist of:
1. Refining the requirements for an app-listing site,
in terms of features and user interface.
2. Suggestions for a name for the site
3. Improved visual design. This should come after
the requirements are worked out.
4. Improved app categorization.
There were some comments suggesting that Dave's old
categories can be improved.
This can always evolve, but it would be nice to
have a good starting point.
To keep this discussion from getting confused, I will follow up with
separate messages targeting points 1 and 2.
6:46 p.m.
On Sat, Jan 31, 2004 at 05:14:12PM -0500, Dave Phillips wrote:
Greetings:
I want to add here that Paul's project certainly has my blessings.
Thanks for that!!
I'd like to publically note that Dave is the guy who got me into
this scene in the first place - we used to correspond on and off
the old comp.music newsgroup around 1994, and it was an early
version of Dave's page that first convinced me to check out Linux.
IIRC, we also discerned that one of the first tasks
would be the
establishment of a backend database from the existing links
and categories (which I would like to see redefined too). The URLs would
need culled and organized: I don't think this would
be a terribly difficult first step, maybe a good Perl script can do it ?
Something like that, but not a first step. Once I've got a working
beta of the system, I'll dump in a few apps and let people kick the tires
a bit. When I'm confident that the system is up to the task,
I'll write some scripts to dump in as much as possible of your
existing data (and report anything it can't parse, so I can get the
rest by hand).
Is PW not a Perlmeister ?? ;)
Reformed. I don't touch the Pathologically Eclectic Rubbish Lister
anymore. ;-)
I'm now a pythonista.
--
Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
Look! Up in the sky! It's THE ANENCEPHALIC TICK!
(random hero from isometric.spaceninja.com)
8:34 p.m.
On Saturday 31 January 2004 17:14, Dave Phillips wrote:
Greetings:
I want to add here that Paul's project certainly has my blessings. We
all know how badly the site needs redesigned,
and Paul is aware that I'm not going to put the time into learning a
better content management system. I'd like to, but
my time is severely limited and I have to be doing other things.
I'd like to say thank you, Dave. linux-sound.org has always been my first
stop when I want to see what's new, or else am in a brainstorming mood and I
want to see what's out there in some area that I haven't explored yet. It's
also the first URLl I give to anyone who asks about music apps on Linux. I've
always felt that it was complete, in the sense that if there was some
worthwhile linux music-related project going on, you have searched it out and
listed it.
I haven't been following the discussions and so I don't know in detail what
the plan is to replace your site, but I understand that it's been getting to
be more work than you have time for.
Larry Troxler
1 Feb
1 Feb
6:26 a.m.
On Sat, Jan 31, 2004 at 05:14:12 -0500, Dave Phillips wrote:
IIRC, we also discerned that one of the first tasks
would be the
establishment of a backend database from the existing links
and categories (which I would like to see redefined too). The URLs would
need culled and organized: I don't think this would
be a terribly difficult first step, maybe a good Perl script can do it ?
Is PW not a Perlmeister ?? ;)
RDF! (rdf, rdf, rdf, ...) http://www.w3.org/RDF/
Full disclosure: You may want to take this with a pinch of salt due to
favourite hammer syndrome; I currently justify my existence by developing
a large-scale (GPL'd of course) RDF server.
Good points:
* this is exactly the kind of thing RDF is designed for
* nice query syntax (like SQL but better)
* very fashionable
* interoperability (metadata can be used, and partly understood, by other
tools because RDF has inherent semantics)
Bad points:
* RDF/XML syntax is horrific (but you hardly ever deal with it)
* not famialiar to people who know LAMP systems
* a bit more resource intensive than PHP+MySQL
* RDF tools not as mature as relational databases
You wouldn't want to use RDF for things like user comments and reviews,
but its ideal for metadata-y things.
I could help by providing things like web form -> RDF/XML CGI scripts and
RDF knowledge-base hosting for betas.
- Steve
7:06 a.m.
Steve Harris wrote:
RDF! (rdf, rdf, rdf, ...) http://www.w3.org/RDF/
topic maps! topic maps! topic maps!
XTM? (XML Topic Maps)
http://xml.coverpages.org/topicMaps.html
Cheers,
Andreas
7:28 a.m.
On Sun, Feb 01, 2004 at 12:05:18 +0100, Andreas Kuckartz wrote:
Steve Harris wrote:
IIUC RDF (certainly RDF+OWL) can do everything that topic maps can, is
more expressive and is much more widely used.
G. Moore, 2001, "RDF and TopicMaps: An Exercise in Convergence" In Proc.
XML Europe 2001, Berlin.
http://www.gca.org/papers/xmleurope2001/papers/html/s23-3.html
- Steve
RDF! (rdf, rdf, rdf, ...) http://www.w3.org/RDF/
topic maps! topic maps! topic maps!
XTM? (XML Topic Maps)
http://xml.coverpages.org/topicMaps.html 
1 Feb
1 Feb
8:07 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: sound & midi applications page, was Re: [Consortium] linuxaudio.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Dave Phillips wrote:
[snip]
IIRC, we also discerned that one of the first tasks
would be the
establishment of a backend database from the existing links
and categories (which I would like to see redefined too). The URLs would
need culled and organized: I don't think this would
be a terribly difficult first step, maybe a good Perl script can do it ?
Is PW not a Perlmeister ?? ;)
[snip]
I'd be interested in doing this first step. Can I propose a simple csv file for
now? That or db - I have a little time and could write the scripts to parse your
website.
- --
Robin Y. Millette (aka Lord D. Nattor)
http://rym.waglo.com/
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6:23 p.m.
On Sun, Feb 01, 2004 at 07:03:15AM -0500, Robin Y. Millette wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Dave Phillips wrote:
[snip]
Thanks very much for the offer, but as I've said, it's premature.
I want to have the system design *solid* before dumping in all the data.
I will post a request for this kind of help when I think I'm ready.
--
Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
Look! Up in the sky! It's QUASI BLAZER TROLL!
(random hero from isometric.spaceninja.com)
IIRC, we also discerned that one of the first
tasks would be the
establishment of a backend database from the existing links
and categories (which I would like to see redefined too). The URLs would
need culled and organized: I don't think this would
be a terribly difficult first step, maybe a good Perl script can do it ?
Is PW not a Perlmeister ?? ;)
[snip]
I'd be interested in doing this first step. Can I propose a simple csv file for
now? That or db - I have a little time and could write the scripts to parse your
website. 
31 Jan
31 Jan
7:46 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: sound & midi applications page, was Re: [Consortium] linuxaudio.org
Hi all,
For a template to possibly follow or borrow from for a new linux sound
apps site, this is really nicely designed - needs more linux apps listed
too: http://www.databaseaudio.co.uk/
(you get a lot of hits from interested non-linux people too ;))
cheers,
dave
--
................................. www.pawfal.org/nebogeo
1 Feb
1 Feb
6:30 a.m.
On Sat, Jan 31, 2004 at 11:42:38 +0000, Dave Griffiths wrote:
Hi all,
For a template to possibly follow or borrow from for a new linux sound
apps site, this is really nicely designed - needs more linux apps listed
too: http://www.databaseaudio.co.uk/
Mmm, yeah, I really likw that layout. Easy on the eyes.
- Steve
9:13 a.m.
Hallo,
Steve Harris hat gesagt: // Steve Harris wrote:
Mmm, yeah, I really likw that layout. Easy on the eyes.
Yes, this is nice, and I like, that every app has a screenshot or
icon. This would be nice for a linuxaudiobase.org as well. Paul's
design from 2002 looks dated now, I guess it was just meant as a
prototype anyway.
RDF-ing the site would be a natural thing to do, IMO. Data storage
might still be done inside a db server, but at least an RDF for
syndication should be provided. Then the content could get
cross-promoted on djcj.org, linuxadudio.org and similar sites.
ciao
--
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
9:54 a.m.
On Sun, Feb 01, 2004 at 02:10:02 +0100, Frank Barknecht wrote:
RDF-ing the site would be a natural thing to do, IMO.
Data storage
might still be done inside a db server, but at least an RDF for
syndication should be provided. Then the content could get
cross-promoted on djcj.org, linuxadudio.org and similar sites.
RDF servers tend to be databases underneath anyway (mines built on mysql)
for speed and persistence reasons. You might be confusing RSS and RDF, RSS
uses one RDF schema (and quite a popular one) but you generally use others
in addition for domain specific things (like application and person
metadata in this case).
- Steve
11:06 a.m.
Hallo,
Steve Harris hat gesagt: // Steve Harris wrote:
RDF servers tend to be databases underneath anyway
(mines built on mysql)
for speed and persistence reasons. You might be confusing RSS and RDF, RSS
uses one RDF schema (and quite a popular one) but you generally use others
in addition for domain specific things (like application and person
metadata in this case).
Ah, yes: I was indeed confusing RDF and RSS. Well, let's just
implement both. ;)
ciao
--
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
12:11 p.m.
On Sun, Feb 01, 2004 at 04:02:37 +0100, Frank Barknecht wrote:
Hallo,
Steve Harris hat gesagt: // Steve Harris wrote:
Heh, yes :) I think an RSS feed is pretty much essential, but wether we
use RDF for the storage as well depends on the implementor. I knocking up
a quick RDF version of Daves site to show what the data would look like.
- Steve
RDF servers tend to be databases underneath
anyway (mines built on mysql)
for speed and persistence reasons. You might be confusing RSS and RDF, RSS
uses one RDF schema (and quite a popular one) but you generally use others
in addition for domain specific things (like application and person
metadata in this case).
Ah, yes: I was indeed confusing RDF and RSS. Well, let's just
implement both. ;)
12:52 p.m.
Hallo,
Steve Harris hat gesagt: // Steve Harris wrote:
Heh, yes :) I think an RSS feed is pretty much
essential, but wether we
use RDF for the storage as well depends on the implementor. I knocking up
a quick RDF version of Daves site to show what the data would look like.
I just installed the Python RDF module, which looks quite comfortable.
Now I only have to do some more RDF reading to really grok it.
(Can you recommend a good tutorial? There's a lot of documentation,
but maybe I could get around reading it *all*.)
I'm looking forward to your RDF quickie.
ciao
--
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
1:18 p.m.
On Sun, Feb 01, 2004 at 05:48:25 +0100, Frank Barknecht wrote:
Hallo,
Steve Harris hat gesagt: // Steve Harris wrote:
The RDF Primer is OK: http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-primer/
Heh, yes :) I think an RSS feed is pretty much
essential, but wether we
use RDF for the storage as well depends on the implementor. I knocking up
a quick RDF version of Daves site to show what the data would look like.
I just installed the Python RDF module, which looks quite comfortable.
Now I only have to do some more RDF reading to really grok it.
(Can you recommend a good tutorial? There's a lot of documentation,
but maybe I could get around reading it *all*.) I'm looking forward to your RDF quickie.
You can see the data here: http://triplestore.aktors.org/~swh/apps/rdf/
Its a bit b0rken cos I just used a perl script to make it, but you can see
the idea. I'l hack together a quick PHP script to browse it.
- Steve
7:03 p.m.
On Sun, Feb 01, 2004 at 05:14:25 +0000, Steve Harris wrote:
> I'm looking forward to your RDF quickie.
http://triplestore.aktors.org/~swh/apps/
its a very rough PHPification of the RDF files I made earlier, if you look
in the HTML source fo the pages you will see the queries I used to build
it, and you can try them yourself through the CGI query interface:
http://triplestore.aktors.org/rdql/apps/
Its not particularly useful, but it shows how RDF data can be made into a
website easily.
- Steve
8:10 p.m.
On Sun, Feb 01, 2004 at 05:14:25PM +0000, Steve Harris wrote:
The RDF Primer is OK: http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-primer/
OK. I've read the first 1/4 of it and skimmed the rest for now.
lots to digest.
A couple of questions:
- If you embed a domain name in all your URIs, does your stored
rdf data need to be mass-updated if/when the site changes domain
names? Or does appropriate use of Qnames make this a non-issue?
- The primer is long on "how" and short on "why",
even in the example applications section.
Are you advocating RDF primarily to allow third parties
to do unspecified cool stuff with the data? Or for the
internal implementation of the website? Or both?
AFAICT the advantages lie with the former. Could you give an
example of such a third-party app? I'm not really coming up with
compelling use cases.
thanks,
PW
--
Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
Look! Up in the sky! It's MAN SUPER LAVA-LAMP!
(random hero from isometric.spaceninja.com)
2 Feb
2 Feb
5:12 a.m.
On Sun, Feb 01, 2004 at 07:06:06 -0500, Paul Winkler wrote:
On Sun, Feb 01, 2004 at 05:14:25PM +0000, Steve Harris
wrote:
The URIs do not have to be resolvable. Thier just unique-ish identifiers.
The fact that they sometimes look like URLs is a pain. I think thier
should have been a 'namespace:' URI prefix, but its a bit late now.
So to answer your question, dont update your URIs.
The RDF Primer is OK:
http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-primer/
OK. I've read the first 1/4 of it and skimmed the rest for now.
lots to digest.
A couple of questions:
- If you embed a domain name in all your URIs, does your stored
rdf data need to be mass-updated if/when the site changes domain
names? Or does appropriate use of Qnames make this a non-issue? - The primer is long on "how" and short on
"why",
even in the example applications section.
Are you advocating RDF primarily to allow third parties
to do unspecified cool stuff with the data? Or for the
internal implementation of the website? Or both?
Providing RDF data representing the things in the site is the most
important, but I now find it easier to to run sites off RDF because the
site code tends to depend less on the data than with SQL. I guess it
depends how much SQL youve done and wether you are willing to change.
There are new thing to learn, so its understandable you wouldn't want to.
If your going to build RDF for your content, you may as well use it :)
AFAICT the advantages lie with the former. Could you
give an
example of such a third-party app? I'm not really coming up with
compelling use cases.
OK, take the LAD conference website. They might want to include a short
bio of each presenter - they can take all the project related data from
<insert name of new site> and add a few paras of text. After the event has
run they could publish photos on the website and mark up whos shown in
each photo, and publish the photo and bio stuff (against the same URIs),
the original site can then load this new stuff into thier KB and suddenly
you have a whole load of new data. Its like data for free.
You /can/ do all this stuff by web-scraping HTML into your internal
database format and resyncing with the source site every week, but who
would bother?
As an example, look at my entry on works KB:
http://triplestore.aktors.org/browse/?resource=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ecs.soton.a…
I hardly wrote any of that, most of it came from other sources, eg.
someones online photo album and random databases published as RDF, click
"show sources" (top right) to see where it all came from.
- Steve
10:40 a.m.
On Mon, Feb 02, 2004 at 09:08:05AM +0000, Steve Harris wrote:
That is pretty interesting.
I hadn't considered that *I* might be the 3rd party :-)
--
Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
Look! Up in the sky! It's THE SPAMSTRANGLING FOOD!
(random hero from isometric.spaceninja.com)
The URIs do not have to be resolvable. Thier just
unique-ish identifiers.
The fact that they sometimes look like URLs is a pain. I think thier
should have been a 'namespace:' URI prefix, but its a bit late now.
So to answer your question, dont update your URIs.
ok. I have to say that's pretty damn weird.
Providing RDF data representing the things in the site
is the most
important, but I now find it easier to to run sites off RDF because the
site code tends to depend less on the data than with SQL. I guess it
depends how much SQL youve done
near zero
and wether you are willing to change.
I do web development with Zope. My site code never depends on
the data store :-)
AFAICT the
advantages lie with the former. Could you give an
example of such a third-party app? I'm not really coming up with
compelling use cases.
OK, take the LAD conference website. They might want to include a short
bio of each presenter - they can take all the project related data from
<insert name of new site> and add a few paras of text. After the event has
run they could publish photos on the website and mark up whos shown in
each photo, and publish the photo and bio stuff (against the same URIs),
the original site can then load this new stuff into thier KB and suddenly
you have a whole load of new data. Its like data for free.
You /can/ do all this stuff by web-scraping HTML into your internal
database format and resyncing with the source site every week, but who
would bother?
As an example, look at my entry on works KB:
http://triplestore.aktors.org/browse/?resource=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ecs.soton.a…
I hardly wrote any of that, most of it came from other sources, eg.
someones online photo album and random databases published as RDF, click
"show sources" (top right) to see where it all came from.
10:59 a.m.
On Mon, Feb 02, 2004 at 09:36:02 -0500, Paul Winkler wrote:
I'm not sure if thats a joke or not ;) Zope is based on an OODB IIRC.
thier not very good at schema independence in my experience.
:) Its the network effect, just like the "syntaxic" web, if you're the
only guy with a website theres not much pont, but when all your friends
and collegues have one its suddenly interesting.
- Steve
and wether you
are willing to change.
I do web development with Zope. My site code never depends on
the data store :-) As an example,
look at my entry on works KB:
http://triplestore.aktors.org/browse/?resource=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ecs.soton.a…
I hardly wrote any of that, most of it came from other sources, eg.
someones online photo album and random databases published as RDF, click
"show sources" (top right) to see where it all came from.
That is pretty interesting.
I hadn't considered that *I* might be the 3rd party :-)
12:19 p.m.
New subject: [OT] OODBs and schema, was Re: [linux-audio-user] Re: sound & midi applications page, was Re: [Consortium] linuxaudio.org
On Mon, Feb 02, 2004 at 02:55:02PM +0000, Steve Harris wrote:
On Mon, Feb 02, 2004 at 09:36:02 -0500, Paul Winkler
wrote:
I'm not sure if thats a joke or not ;) Zope is based on an OODB IIRC.
thier not very good at schema independence in my experience.
I'm not sure what "schema independence" means, so I will
assume it means the ability to extend or modify the
schema after you've already got live instances.
I'm curious what languages you've used with an OODB.
I imagine it would be a major pain if you didn't have as much
runtime flexibility as python (e.g. ruby would be just fine,
C would be insane, dunno about java).
It's been a non-issue in the 3 years I've been doing Zope.
Content types in zope are generally defined with classes.
Adding an attribute to a class requires me to add a
couple of lines to the class definition, including
one to provide a default class-level value, then I tell zope
to reload the class by clicking a button in the zope management
interface. Live instances immediately see the default
value. This requires no deep magic, it's just how python works.
An untested-but-should-work example (feel free to skip
the rest of this message):
from ZODB import Persistence
class SoftwareResource(Persistence.Persistent):
meta_type='Software Resource'
def __init__(self, name='', author='', download_url=''):
self.name=name
self.author=author
def setAuthor(self, author):
# setter methods are totally optional in python,
# but we usually use them in zope so we can
# declare security restrictions on them,
# which I won't bother with in this example.
self.author = author
def setName(self, name):
self.name = name
Now let's add a release_number attribute with a default
value of '':
class SoftwareResource(Persistence.Persistent):
release_number = ''
...
def __init__(self, name='', author='', release_number=''):
...
self.release_number=release_number
...
def setRelease(self, release_number):
self.release_number=release_number
Reload the class and you're done.
Changing the 'author' attribute to 'author_name'
is only barely more difficult. You can embed self-upgrading
code in the class, but such code has a way of sticking around
long after it should be deleted. Another way to do it is with a
trivial upgrade script like this, to be run once after
reloading the relevant class changes:
# A bit like find . -type ...
for obj in context.ZopeFind(meta_type='Software Resource'):
if not hasattr(obj, 'author_name'):
obj.setAuthor(obj.author)
del(obj.author)
--
Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
Look! Up in the sky! It's THE FISHY ANUS!
(random hero from isometric.spaceninja.com)
and
wether you are willing to change.
I do web development with Zope. My site code never depends on
the data store :-)
1:35 p.m.
New subject: [OT] OODBs and schema, was Re: [linux-audio-user] Re: sound & midi applications page, was Re: [Consortium] linuxaudio.org
On Mon, Feb 02, 2004 at 11:15:43 -0500, Paul Winkler wrote:
I meant things like splitting or joining classes, changing property
semantics and so on.
Looks like python is better at handling it than java, but its still a bit
hacky.
- Steve
I'm not
sure if thats a joke or not ;) Zope is based on an OODB IIRC.
thier not very good at schema independence in my experience.
I'm not sure what "schema independence" means, so I will
assume it means the ability to extend or modify the
schema after you've already got live instances.
2:24 p.m.
New subject: [OT] OODBs and schema, was Re: [linux-audio-user] Re: sound & midi applications page, was Re: [Consortium] linuxaudio.org
On Mon, Feb 02, 2004 at 05:31:39PM +0000, Steve Harris wrote:
On Mon, Feb 02, 2004 at 11:15:43 -0500, Paul Winkler
wrote:
I meant things like splitting or joining classes, changing property
semantics and so on.
Splitting and joining classes? You lost me there.
Refactoring?
--
Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
Look! Up in the sky! It's VOODOO FARMER!
(random hero from isometric.spaceninja.com)
I'm
not sure if thats a joke or not ;) Zope is based on an OODB IIRC.
thier not very good at schema independence in my experience.
I'm not sure what "schema independence" means, so I will
assume it means the ability to extend or modify the
schema after you've already got live instances.
2:46 p.m.
New subject: [OT] OODBs and schema, was Re: [linux-audio-user] Re: sound & midi applications page, was Re: [Consortium] linuxaudio.org
On Mon, Feb 02, 2004 at 01:20:47 -0500, Paul Winkler wrote:
On Mon, Feb 02, 2004 at 05:31:39PM +0000, Steve Harris
wrote:
Yeah, I guess. Eg. if you had Green Things and Red Things and you wanted
to replace them with Coloured Things.
- Steve
On Mon, Feb 02, 2004 at 11:15:43 -0500, Paul
Winkler wrote:
I meant things like splitting or joining classes, changing property
semantics and so on.
Splitting and joining classes? You lost me there.
Refactoring? I'm
not sure if thats a joke or not ;) Zope is based on an OODB IIRC.
thier not very good at schema independence in my experience.
I'm not sure what "schema independence" means, so I will
assume it means the ability to extend or modify the
schema after you've already got live instances.
2:50 p.m.
New subject: [OT] OODBs and schema, was Re: [linux-audio-user] Re: sound & midi applications page
On Mon, Feb 02, 2004 at 06:42:47PM +0000, Steve Harris wrote:
How is this done in the RDF world?
sorry to be a pest, it's just new concepts to me and I'm slow
to grasp the benefits.
--
Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
Look! Up in the sky! It's THE FINALE!
(random hero from isometric.spaceninja.com)
Splitting and
joining classes? You lost me there.
Refactoring?
Yeah, I guess. Eg. if you had Green Things and Red Things and you wanted
to replace them with Coloured Things.
3 Feb
3 Feb
6 a.m.
New subject: [OT] OODBs and schema, was Re: [linux-audio-user] Re: sound & midi applications page
On Mon, Feb 02, 2004 at 01:46:31 -0500, Paul Winkler wrote:
On Mon, Feb 02, 2004 at 06:42:47PM +0000, Steve Harris
wrote:
How is this done in the RDF world?
You create a mapping schema which says
GreenThings rdfs:subClassOf ColouredThings .
RedThings rdfs:subClassOf ColouredThings .
(and the same for the properties that need translating.
So any queries you have on GreenThings will be satisfied by instances of
ColouredThings - not a perfect match as you can see, but better than
nothing.
A better example is if someone gives you a load of data in Dublin Core you
can say
dc:title rdfs:subPropertyOf my:name .
dc:identifier rdfs:subPropertyOf my:url .
...
So you will get eqivalents in your schema for all the DC properties. If
you reverse it as well you will get mapping in both directions so people
who use DC can understand your data.
Splitting
and joining classes? You lost me there.
Refactoring?
Yeah, I guess. Eg. if you had Green Things and Red Things and you wanted
to replace them with Coloured Things. sorry to be a pest, it's just new concepts to me
and I'm slow
to grasp the benefits.
Not at all, its a bit of an odd concept to get your head round. Someone
desciribed ontologies (things like RDFS) as an equivalent of an API for
data - which is close enough.
- Steve
11:31 a.m.
New subject: [OT] OODBs and schema, was Re: [linux-audio-user] Re: sound & midi applications page
On Tue, Feb 03, 2004 at 09:56:03AM +0000, Steve Harris wrote:
On Mon, Feb 02, 2004 at 01:46:31 -0500, Paul Winkler
wrote:
okey-doke.
Now, how do you, as a third party, make use of all this stuff?
Do I have to provide a query engine at some URL or do you just
walk through my pile of RDF documents parsing stuff?
On Mon, Feb 02, 2004 at 06:42:47PM +0000, Steve
Harris wrote:
How is this done in the RDF world?
You create a mapping schema which says
GreenThings rdfs:subClassOf ColouredThings .
RedThings rdfs:subClassOf ColouredThings .
(and the same for the properties that need translating. Splitting
and joining classes? You lost me there.
Refactoring?
Yeah, I guess. Eg. if you had Green Things and Red Things and you wanted
to replace them with Coloured Things. So any queries you have on GreenThings will be
satisfied by instances of
ColouredThings - not a perfect match as you can see, but better than
nothing.
Did you mean to say that the other way around? i.e.
"any queries you have on ColouredThings will be satisfied by instances of
GreenThings".
--
Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
Look! Up in the sky! It's MY CAT PUMA!
(random hero from isometric.spaceninja.com)
11:41 a.m.
New subject: [OT] OODBs and schema, was Re: [linux-audio-user] Re: sound & midi applications page
On Tue, Feb 03, 2004 at 10:27:35 -0500, Paul Winkler wrote:
Either or both, yes. Generally you read peoples RDF into a local store,
but you could use thier remote query interface if they will let you.
Er, yes. Sorry!
- Steve
You create a
mapping schema which says
GreenThings rdfs:subClassOf ColouredThings .
RedThings rdfs:subClassOf ColouredThings .
(and the same for the properties that need translating.
okey-doke.
Now, how do you, as a third party, make use of all this stuff?
Do I have to provide a query engine at some URL or do you just
walk through my pile of RDF documents parsing stuff? So any queries
you have on GreenThings will be satisfied by instances of
ColouredThings - not a perfect match as you can see, but better than
nothing.
Did you mean to say that the other way around? i.e.
"any queries you have on ColouredThings will be satisfied by instances of
GreenThings".
1:20 p.m.
New subject: [OT] OODBs and schema, was Re: [linux-audio-user] Re: sound & midi applications page
On Tue, Feb 03, 2004 at 03:37:21PM +0000, Steve Harris wrote:
On Tue, Feb 03, 2004 at 10:27:35 -0500, Paul Winkler
wrote:
Either or both, yes. Generally you read peoples RDF into a local store,
but you could use thier remote query interface if they will let you.
OK. I doubt i will do the latter.
It might be pretty easy to provide something like your "view as RDF"
link from each page.
Thanks for all the answers!
--
Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
Look! Up in the sky! It's SUPERFLOUS FORNICATOR KATANA!
(random hero from isometric.spaceninja.com)
You
create a mapping schema which says
GreenThings rdfs:subClassOf ColouredThings .
RedThings rdfs:subClassOf ColouredThings .
(and the same for the properties that need translating.
okey-doke.
Now, how do you, as a third party, make use of all this stuff?
Do I have to provide a query engine at some URL or do you just
walk through my pile of RDF documents parsing stuff? 
2:19 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] [OT] bibliographic database [wasRe: [OT] OODBs and schema]
Since you two seem to know a bit about such things and you're on the
topic ...
I have a largish annotated bibliography from my college days consisting
mainly of psychoacoustics literature. Some time in the next year or two
I hope to start studying that stuff again (along with DSP). When I do I
want to move the bibliography to a more flexible format (currently in
MSword 6.0 on my old beige powermac that hasn't been powered on in
almost 2 years ... )
The main points of interest for me are my annotations, of course, but
also, as I created it I kept track of which and how many other texts
listed a given text in their bilbliography. I did this to get a sense of
what I should read to better understand what I had already read (if that
makes any sense ... )
When I get around to going forward with my studies I want to continue
adding the bibliographies of any texts I read to my data store in a way
that allows me to keep tabs on which authors and which particular texts
are referred to most often. I want this to give me a guide of sorts to
whose most recent publications to keep track of and which canonical
texts to be sure to study.
I don't have any formal computer science training and little pratical
experience with database or content management systems. Is there an
existing system or program I could use to do what I want? Or what
direction would you recommend looking into if I manage to try to code
something in python for myself? I'm willing and interested to learn
about this stuff, but don't know where to start. I don't have time for
this project right now, but since you guys are on the topic I was
hoping to get some pointers to store away for later.
Thanks,
Eric Rz.
On Tue, Feb 03, 2004 at 12:15:55PM -0500, Paul Winkler wrote:
On Tue, Feb 03, 2004 at 03:37:21PM +0000, Steve Harris
wrote:
On Tue, Feb 03, 2004 at 10:27:35 -0500, Paul
Winkler wrote:
Either or both, yes. Generally you read peoples RDF into a local store,
but you could use thier remote query interface if they will let you.
OK. I doubt i will do the latter.
It might be pretty easy to provide something like your "view as RDF"
link from each page.
Thanks for all the answers!
--
Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
Look! Up in the sky! It's SUPERFLOUS FORNICATOR KATANA!
(random hero from isometric.spaceninja.com) You
create a mapping schema which says
GreenThings rdfs:subClassOf ColouredThings .
RedThings rdfs:subClassOf ColouredThings .
(and the same for the properties that need translating.
okey-doke.
Now, how do you, as a third party, make use of all this stuff?
Do I have to provide a query engine at some URL or do you just
walk through my pile of RDF documents parsing stuff?
3:36 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] [OT] bibliographic database [wasRe: [OT] OODBs and schema]
Hallo,
Eric Dantan Rzewnicki hat gesagt: // Eric Dantan Rzewnicki wrote:
I don't have any formal computer science training
and little pratical
experience with database or content management systems. Is there an
existing system or program I could use to do what I want? Or what
direction would you recommend looking into if I manage to try to code
something in python for myself? I'm willing and interested to learn
about this stuff, but don't know where to start. I don't have time for
this project right now, but since you guys are on the topic I was
hoping to get some pointers to store away for later.
As bibliographies are used a lot in science, it might be good to use a
standardized more format. Bibtex comes to mind, which is used in
Physics *everywhere*. If you look at a random Citeseer entry like:
http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/lanneer95ches.html
you'll see the Bitex reference on every page.
You could of course generate bibtex entries from other sources, like
the mentioned RDF or store things in a database. But I would say, that
a bibtex-import is important as well.
If you look at the wonderful Pybliographer you get a lot of Python
code to copy and paste.
ciao
--
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
4:27 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] [OT] bibliographic database [wasRe: [OT] OODBs and schema]
Thanks Frank,
I figured there proabably wasn't anything novel about what I wanted. ;)
citeseer is cool. I want to have a list like this for the documents
I've read: http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/mostcited.html
That one gives most cited authors. I'd also like that list for most cited
documents.
I'll check out pybliographer and bibtex as well. That should be more
than enough to accomplish what I want to do. I'll store these away in my
bookmarks for later.
Thanks again,
Eric Rz.
On Tue, Feb 03, 2004 at 08:32:50PM +0100, Frank Barknecht wrote:
Hallo,
Eric Dantan Rzewnicki hat gesagt: // Eric Dantan Rzewnicki wrote:
I don't have any formal computer science
training and little pratical
experience with database or content management systems. Is there an
existing system or program I could use to do what I want? Or what
direction would you recommend looking into if I manage to try to code
something in python for myself? I'm willing and interested to learn
about this stuff, but don't know where to start. I don't have time for
this project right now, but since you guys are on the topic I was
hoping to get some pointers to store away for later.
As bibliographies are used a lot in science, it might be good to use a
standardized more format. Bibtex comes to mind, which is used in
Physics *everywhere*. If you look at a random Citeseer entry like:
http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/lanneer95ches.html
you'll see the Bitex reference on every page.
You could of course generate bibtex entries from other sources, like
the mentioned RDF or store things in a database. But I would say, that
a bibtex-import is important as well.
If you look at the wonderful Pybliographer you get a lot of Python
code to copy and paste.
ciao
--
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
7:11 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] [OT] bibliographic database [wasRe: [OT] OODBs and schema]
On Tue, Feb 03, 2004 at 03:23:38 -0500, Eric Dantan Rzewnicki wrote:
Thanks Frank,
I figured there proabably wasn't anything novel about what I wanted. ;)
citeseer is cool. I want to have a list like this for the documents
I've read: http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/mostcited.html
That one gives most cited authors. I'd also like that list for most cited
documents.
I'll check out pybliographer and bibtex as well. That should be more
than enough to accomplish what I want to do. I'll store these away in my
bookmarks for later.
Bittex is great for citation mangement, but its not a good format for
storage of references, its quite hard to recover data from it for other
purposes, but that may not be an issue.
I really ought to be able to recommend to article annotation software, its
something I've done research in, but sadly I dont know of anything thats
particularly useful :-/
- Steve
1 Feb
1 Feb
6:36 p.m.
On Sun, Feb 01, 2004 at 04:07:42PM +0000, Steve Harris wrote:
Heh, yes :) I think an RSS feed is pretty much
essential,
ok, i'll move that off the "optional" features list and
on to the required features list :-)
but wether we
use RDF for the storage as well depends on the implementor. I knocking up
a quick RDF version of Daves site to show what the data would look like.
looking forward to it.
I'm also reading up on RDF, thanks for the links.
--
Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
Look! Up in the sky! It's LEOPARD NOSE!
(random hero from isometric.spaceninja.com)
6:25 p.m.
On Sun, Feb 01, 2004 at 02:10:02PM +0100, Frank Barknecht wrote:
Hallo,
Steve Harris hat gesagt: // Steve Harris wrote:
My mock-up is visually crude and is only meant to give an idea of the
information each page would contain. Design help will be welcomed.
--
Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
Look! Up in the sky! It's ALTO PEASANT VON ALPHA!
(random hero from isometric.spaceninja.com)
Mmm, yeah, I really likw that layout. Easy on the eyes.
Yes, this is nice, and I like, that every app has a screenshot or
icon. This would be nice for a linuxaudiobase.org as well. Paul's
design from 2002 looks dated now, I guess it was just meant as a
prototype anyway.
6:41 p.m.
On Sat, Jan 31, 2004 at 11:42:38PM +0000, Dave Griffiths wrote:
Hi all,
For a template to possibly follow or borrow from for a new linux sound
apps site, this is really nicely designed - needs more linux apps listed
too: http://www.databaseaudio.co.uk/
(you get a lot of hits from interested non-linux people too ;))
It is pretty nice.
A bit busy at first glance, but I think removing the right nav box
(which contains only stuff we don't need) will fix that.
And we will have potentially a lot more information for each listed app.
I do like the mini-screenshots, that's a nice feature
and wouldn't be very resource-intensive.
Also, I hope someone can suggest a less dismal color scheme
than gray, gray, and more gray ;-)
--
Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
Look! Up in the sky! It's COMBUSTION REACTION BLADE!
(random hero from isometric.spaceninja.com)
7:30 p.m.
Hallo,
Paul Winkler hat gesagt: // Paul Winkler wrote:
Also, I hope someone can suggest a less dismal color
scheme
than gray, gray, and more gray ;-)
I recently programmed, but not designed (I'm no desinger) this site,
whose colors you *might* like: http://normalmailorder.de ;)
ciao
--
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
7593
days inactive
7596
days old
linux-audio-user@lists.linuxaudio.org
39 comments
10 participants
participants (10)
-
Andreas Kuckartz -
Dave Griffiths -
Dave Phillips -
Eric Dantan Rzewnicki -
Frank Barknecht -
Larry Troxler -
Paul Winkler -
Robin Y. Millette -
Steve Harris -
tim hall