13 Jun
2003
13 Jun
'03
3:17 p.m.
Hi,
I'm doing a study on audio mastering. Hopefully this
letter will generate some correspondance from which
I'll learn enough to augment a GFDL licensed document
that I've been working on.
The test job is an album I recorded several years ago.
The source I've decided to use is 16bit 44100 audio
CD. I'm restricting the applications I use to jack
clients.
I guess the process of copying audio and data from CD
doesn't introduce any opportunity to compromise the
sonic quality of the source. Am I right or wrong?
Having opened the songs in Rezound, I've discovered
that some of the songs have an inordinate amount of
clipping--represented by vertical red lines on the
time line. For the purposes of testing this is
excellent because they're an opportunity to solve a
common problem. The clips cause a series of questions
for which I absolutely do not have definitive answers.
Is what I am seeing clipping or is there a more
accurate term to describe what I'm seeing?
Perhaps someone could provide a technical explanation
of clipping or a link to a definition.
What tools do you use for eliminating clipping that
already exists in a source? I don't care at all about
preventing the problem.
For the moment I am using the Rezound Arbitrary Fir
Filter to identify the hz where the clips occur and am
performing a decibal cut on the problem range. The
interface for this filter enabled me to do some
detailed work. Reguardless of how detailed I get,
there's an audible consequence to eliminating the
clips.
I configured a preset with the minimal settings
required to eliminate the clips but the result is
audibly unacceptable. Another preset eliminates about
80% of the clips and audibly is marginally acceptable
if applied to the entire file.
What's interesting about this specific set of clips is
that they are mostly inaudible. The clipping occurs
around 10kHz -> 15kHz and are almost all within the
high hat.
This causes me to wonder:
*how Rezound is configured to conclude that there are
clips
*should measuring for these types of problems be user
configurable or does a technical specification define
when a clip occurs
*can engineers safely ignore inaudible clips and tell
their clients that there's room to fudge and not to
worry
Is a Fir filter a good tool for addressing the problem
of digital clips or is there something better?
Are there alternative Fir filter algorithms that
produce better results than the one being used in
Rezound? I haven't a clue what Rezound uses.
Anyway, there's a few of my questions which I realize
are probably enough to exhaust anyone's patience.
Reguardless, I really would appreciate your thoughts.
ron
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13 Jun
13 Jun
3:51 p.m.
Hi,
I'm doing a study on audio mastering. Hopefully this
letter will generate some correspondance from which
I'll learn enough to augment a GFDL licensed document
that I've been working on.
Great! I wish you the best of luck and I'm certainly
interested in hearing about what you learn.
(And maybe hearing some results along the way!) ;-)
The test job is an album I recorded several years ago.
The source I've decided to use is 16bit 44100 audio
CD. I'm restricting the applications I use to jack
clients.
I guess the process of copying audio and data from CD
doesn't introduce any opportunity to compromise the
sonic quality of the source. Am I right or wrong?
According to one guy, you're wrong. (In a very minimal
sense...) There is a tool called 'Exact Audio Copy'
that is very interesting. It's a pretty cool little tool.
http://www.exactaudiocopy.de/
I think you might be looking for it's 'Glitch Removal'
section on the Sound Editor page.
Having opened the songs in Rezound, I've discovered
that some of the songs have an inordinate amount of
clipping--represented by vertical red lines on the
time line. For the purposes of testing this is
excellent because they're an opportunity to solve a
common problem. The clips cause a series of questions
for which I absolutely do not have definitive answers.
Is what I am seeing clipping or is there a more
accurate term to describe what I'm seeing?
These may be clipping, but the might be incorrectly
written bits on the CD you're ripping, as described above.
As an experiment, I've burned multiple CDRs with the
same database, and then used EAC to see what happened.
None of the CDRs were identical, even when burned at
a lower speed.
It could also be just plain clipping if the levels were
set too hot in the original mix.
A very interested CD for you to look at sometime is
Pilgrim by Eric Clapton. That CD looks like it went
through an overaggressive compressor. Most songs, when
viewed in their entirety, look like a big rectangle
of data. Very weird, and not his most successful.
Other CDs I've run across with strange results might
be something like SMPTE by Transatlantic which seems
to drive my CD player crazy with clipping.
I've spend time looking visually at CDs I like the sound
of, and a few I dislike, just to get an impression of
what's going on. Weird hobby of mine, but I have others
too... ;-)
Perhaps someone could provide a technical explanation
of clipping or a link to a definition.
What tools do you use for eliminating clipping that
already exists in a source? I don't care at all about
preventing the problem.
Waves has some stuff in their Restoration package for
clicks and pops, and then their Master's package has a
look-ahead limiter/compressor which is quite good at
this sort of stuff.
<SNIP>
*can engineers safely ignore inaudible clips and tell
their clients that there's room to fudge and not to
worry
That's a business question! ;-)
- Mark
4:26 p.m.
Mark Knecht wrote on Fri, 13-Jun-2003:
cdparanoia has this functionality, hence its name.
Can take longer to rip due to the error checking process, but is
worth it.
jlc
I guess the
process of copying audio and data from CD
doesn't introduce any opportunity to compromise the
sonic quality of the source. Am I right or wrong?
According to one guy, you're wrong. (In a very minimal
sense...) There is a tool called 'Exact Audio Copy'
that is very interesting. It's a pretty cool little tool.
5:27 p.m.
Hi,
--- Jesse Chappell <jesse(a)essej.net> wrote:
Mark Knecht wrote on Fri, 13-Jun-2003:
Sweet, thanks for the hint Mark and Jesse. I've
installed and will defer to cdparanoia. I'm certain
that what I see is clipping so I probably can't
demonstrate these types of errors or show screenshots
of them but if anyone can or has, it would be very
useful see examples.
Ron Parker
> I guess the process of copying audio and
data
from CD
> doesn't introduce any opportunity to
compromise
the
> sonic quality of the source. Am I right or
wrong?
According to one guy, you're wrong. (In a very
minimal
sense...) There is a tool called 'Exact Audio
Copy'
that is very interesting. It's a pretty cool
little tool.
cdparanoia has this functionality, hence its name.
Can take longer to rip due to the error checking
process, but is
worth it. jlc
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4:43 p.m.
Mark Knecht wrote:
Hm. Of course things can go wrong in a digital
transfer, but they are not supposed to. It's rare,
luckily, otherwise we would have even more trouble
than we do when we store computer files on CDR.
Remember that only a single bit error in a software
on CD will probably make your computer crash. How
often does that happen? (OK, sometimes it does!)
I guess the
process of copying audio and data from CD
doesn't introduce any opportunity to compromise the
sonic quality of the source. Am I right or wrong?
According to one guy, you're wrong. 'Exact Audio Copy'
Snake oil. :-)
Of course it's a good thing that it tells you if
you have a serious dropout on your CD - that does
happen. I'm sure it's a fine program.
I think you might be looking for it's 'Glitch
Removal'
section on the Sound Editor page.
Won't remove clips though.
These may be clipping, but the might be incorrectly
written bits on the CD you're ripping, as described above.
Maybe. Doubt it.
As an experiment, I've burned multiple CDRs with
the
same database, and then used EAC to see what happened.
None of the CDRs were identical, even when burned at
a lower speed.
!!!. Hope you don't make your computer file backups with
that burner!
It could also be just plain clipping if the levels
were
set too hot in the original mix.
Not clipping on the digital side, but you might guess
that there was clipping in the original mix.
Other CDs I've run across with strange results
might
be something like SMPTE by Transatlantic which seems
to drive my CD player crazy with clipping.
In principle, it can't make your CD player clip, not if
its analog circuits are adjusted correctly. Sorry for
splitting hairs :-)
Waves has some stuff in their Restoration package for
clicks and pops,
Won't fix clips though.
look-ahead limiter/compressor which is quite good at
this sort of stuff.
Won't fix clips after the fact.
Dr. Oyvind Hammer
Dinosaur researcher etc.
University of Oslo
5:01 p.m.
Oyvind Hammer wrote on Fri, 13-Jun-2003:
Hm. Of course things can go wrong in a digital
transfer, but they are not supposed to. It's rare,
luckily, otherwise we would have even more trouble
than we do when we store computer files on CDR.
Remember that only a single bit error in a software
on CD will probably make your computer crash. How
often does that happen? (OK, sometimes it does!)
The redbook audio cd format is significantly different
than a data CD. Extraction is not as straightforward as you would
think:
http://www.emedialive.com/EM1999/starrett7.html
jlc
I guess the process of copying audio and data from CD
doesn't introduce any opportunity to compromise the
sonic quality of the source. Am I right or wrong?
According to one guy, you're wrong. 'Exact Audio Copy'
Snake oil. :-)
Of course it's a good thing that it tells you if
you have a serious dropout on your CD - that does
happen. I'm sure it's a fine program.
5:31 p.m.
Oyvind Hammer wrote on Fri, 13-Jun-2003:
I think you're right. The MMC interface to all modern drives
provides a lot of this for you I think.
jlc
The redbook audio cd format is significantly
different
than a data CD. Extraction is not as straightforward as you would
think:
I thought this (rather unnecessary) problem was less with
modern drives?
6:18 p.m.
I thought this (rather unnecessary) problem was less with
modern drives?
Another option is to use an audio CD player with digital out.
Oyvind.
The thing is that it isn't a trivial problem. To burn a CD we're pointing a
laser at a spinning disk and making pits to represent the numbers we want.
The actual physical mechanisms for doing this are not error-proof, although
they are significantly reliable to give good results. So, we might write a
wrong number by missing a single bit - what dumber do we get when
'00000000-00000000' becomes '10000000-00000000' because a single bit was
written incorrectly?
Readback is the same issue. We read numbers, but there's no guarantee that
we read the right number. There could be a single bit that got recorded just
a bit weakly, or a part of the CD that was a bit more difficult to burn.
(Not to even mention what happens when there's a spec of dust in the system
somewhere.)
From my reading, which hasn't been that deep, all
of these sorts of problems
add up to a few bad bits here and there. When we
'play' a CD using a modern
drive, it is my understanding that we read the disk one time and play what
ever we read. If there is a bad bit in there, then you hear it (possibly)
but if you play the disk a second time you might not get the same bad bit,
so you really cannot track it down too easily. I think what EAC, and I guess
cdparinoia also, can do is read the same section multiple times and figure
out what is the 'right' answer, which is cool, but it's not a real-time
operation. (to the best of my knowledge...)
It's interesting to look at this problem on commercially made CDs you buy at
the store. Even the best of them have to have a number of bad bits. It's
just the nature of manufacturing. I spent some time a while back looking at
a Steely Dan CD. Sounded perfect (to my ears) but had a number of bad bits.
None of these problems are actually solved by using a digital out on the
drive since the problem is created when the laser and drive electronics
actually read the disk. After that point, if the problem is there, it's
there on all outputs, digital, optical and analog.
- Mark
7:58 p.m.
On Fri, Jun 13, 2003 at 01:06:47PM -0700, Mark Knecht wrote:
I'm no expert on the physical layer of CDs, but I've read something
about it. There is error correction built into the mechanism of reading
data from the physical medium of a CD.
CDs have multiple kinds of error protection. Data mode CDs use a coding
called Eight-to-Fourteen Modulation that uses fourteen physical bits to
encode eight data bits. In addition, the CD data framing uses two
interleaved Reed Solomon codes (CIRC). These codings allow CD-ROMs to
always reproduce the exact same bits in a deterministic fashion.
Audio sample are stored somewhat differently. The EFM coding doesn't
really apply, but dual interleaved Reed Solomon codes are still used.
The first application of RS is used to correct the kinds of burst errors
you're talking about. The second application is used to correct random
erros, and even problems with the first attempt at error correction.
All said and done, CDs can replace something like 3500 lost bits in a
row. Of course more bits than that, and you'll start loosing the
bit-identical-ness of the CD.
(Google for "cd circ" for some decent links)
--
Ross Vandegrift
ross(a)willow.seitz.com
A Pope has a Water Cannon. It is a Water Cannon.
He fires Holy-Water from it. It is a Holy-Water Cannon.
He Blesses it. It is a Holy Holy-Water Cannon.
He Blesses the Hell out of it. It is a Wholly Holy Holy-Water Cannon.
He has it pierced. It is a Holey Wholly Holy Holy-Water Cannon.
He makes it official. It is a Canon Holey Wholly Holy Holy-Water Cannon.
Batman and Robin arrive. He shoots them.
From my
reading, which hasn't been that deep, all of these sorts of problems
add up to
a few bad bits here and there. When we 'play' a CD using a modern
drive, it is my understanding that we read the disk one time and play what
ever we read. 
11:09 p.m.
el Fri, 13 Jun 2003 17:44:47 -0400
Ross Vandegrift <ross(a)willow.seitz.com> escribió:
I'm no expert on the physical layer of CDs, but
I've read something
about it. There is error correction built into the mechanism of reading
data from the physical medium of a CD.
well, if i said i'm not an expert on the physical layer of cds, that would
be and understatement, the truth is that i hardly know a word about that.
but i think you're right, it seems to me that some of what has been said
on this thread assume a rather simplified model of how the data is written
and read in an audio cd.
haven't reread my pohlman lately (that means many years), but i remember
it was a good reading. there may be many better resources now, but pohlman
was highly recommendable on the subject.
best,
lj
14 Jun
14 Jun
6:16 a.m.
OK then, just a last word on this (off-topic!)
CD thread to sum up. For the record, I haven't really
got a clue what I'm talking about either, but
did also read my Pohlmann all those years ago :-)
1. As Ross said, Even in the audio CD format, there
is enough error correction built in to basically avoid
bit errors in the reading of the disk. To make this
system break down, you need really large damage,
like putting a piece of black tape across the
disk. Does happen, but not often. The player
will then fudge sound by interpolation.
2. But there seems to be a quite different problem
here, as Jesse said, which basically is a silly
incompatibility thing between audio and data CD
formats, and clock sync problems. It's really
crazy that this is a problem at all (I smell a
music industry conspiracy), but seems to be better
in CDR drives made these days.
3. So, in other words, I think I disagree with
Mark - the problem, if any, *will* be solved by
recording digitally from an audio CD player with
digital out. Just be sure to get the word clock
settings right to avoid bit sync problems.
Oyvind.
12:25 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Mastering; Rezound, fir filter, digital clipping
On Sat, 2003-06-14 at 01:02, Oyvind Hammer wrote:
OK then, just a last word on this (off-topic!)
CD thread to sum up. For the record, I haven't really
got a clue what I'm talking about either, but
did also read my Pohlmann all those years ago :-)
1. As Ross said, Even in the audio CD format, there
is enough error correction built in to basically avoid
bit errors in the reading of the disk. To make this
system break down, you need really large damage,
like putting a piece of black tape across the
disk. Does happen, but not often. The player
will then fudge sound by interpolation.
What do you do when everyone is right? (And everyone is wrong!) ;-)
Enabling Error Detection & Correction (EDC) on an audio CDR is an
_option_. It is not required. EDC is required (as per the specs) for
data CDRs.
Just to offer for discussion, many popular Windows programs (and
possibly some Linux programs) do not *by default* enable EDC for CDR
audio disks they write. A 74 minute CDR will hold 74 minutes of non-EDC
based music, but only about 63 minutes of EDC based audio. (An 80 minute
CDR holds about 69 minutes of EDC audio) How many minutes can you get on
your CDR?
Check the specs of your program and the options you use to convince
yourself that you are taking advantage of this feature.
I haven't found any definitive information on the requirements and/or
default state of EDC on commercially sold CDs. If anyone has a link on
that, I'd be interested.
3. So, in other words, I think I disagree with
Mark - the problem, if any, *will* be solved by
recording digitally from an audio CD player with
digital out. Just be sure to get the word clock
settings right to avoid bit sync problems.
Learning is cool! ;-)
13 Jun
13 Jun
4:50 p.m.
> clipping--represented by vertical red lines on
the
> time line.
Ah wait a minute, I overlooked that "vertical red lines".
Are they single, isolated spikes in the signal? Then
they are glitches, not clipping, and they could indeed
be caused by the digital stuff Mark is talking about, or
by some analogue problem during recording (such as a
nearby fridge thermostat switching on). Also, the
glitch removal software described by Mark is likely
to work very well (glitches are much easier to remove
than clips, you could even do it manually in a sound
editor where you can zoom in a lot).
Sorry all - will keep my mouth shut in the future.
Oyvind.
4:06 p.m.
Hi Ron, let me try a little on this one.
I guess the process of copying audio and data from CD
doesn't introduce any opportunity to compromise the
sonic quality of the source. Am I right or wrong?
Right, if it's done digitally and correctly.
Is what I am seeing clipping
This is almost a philosophical question :-)
Not knowing Rezound, I assume that it
simply checks whether the sample values are just
about to max out. For 16 bits, you have a range of
-32768 to +32767, so the program might blink the red
light for samples below -30000 or above +30000, for
example. Rezound can not actually know if the signal
has clipped - maybe it's recorded beautifully at full
dynamic range.
Of course, you can look at the waveform to see if it's
flat on the peaks, but maybe it was meant to be that
way - there are many strange musical aesthetics out
there - the computer can not know.
So to answer your question: The red light does not
technically show clipping within the digital domain,
but I would say that it is a strong indication that
you did have clipping somewhere in your analogue
path way back then.
Perhaps someone could provide a technical explanation
of clipping or a link to a definition.
Hm, this is really quite simple, something like
limiting of the signal due to the amplitude
exceeding the dynamic range.
If your original, full-scale samples x are clipped
in a system with a range of -1 to +1, the clipped
signal y will be
y=-1 for x<-1
y=x for -1<=x<=1
y=1 for x>1
What tools do you use for eliminating clipping that
already exists in a source? I don't care at all about
preventing the problem.
Clipping means information loss, and you can not in
general reconstruct the signal. There are all kinds
of clever tricks to try to round off clipping, but
they will always be fudges and not total cures.
For the moment I am using the Rezound Arbitrary Fir
Filter to identify the hz where the clips occur
?? clipping will affect all frequencies. Of course,
depending upon your signal, the audible effect of
this will be more serious on some frequencies.
In general, clipping will add energy on high
frequencies (for a pure sinusoid it will add
harmonics).
performing a decibal cut on the problem range.
Yes, it's not a bad idea to bandstop-filter
bands which sound particularly nasty.
Reguardless of how detailed I get, there's
an audible consequence to eliminating the clips.
Yep!
What's interesting about this specific set of
clips is
that they are mostly inaudible. The clipping occurs
around 10kHz -> 15kHz and are almost all within the
high hat.
This is a little strange. Althoug clipping generally
adds high-frequency content (and can be dampened a
little by a low-pass filter, effectively rounding off
those nasty sharp bends in the curve), I would expect
some goo below 10 kHz. Maybe it's masked by your
music.
*how Rezound is configured to conclude that there are
clips
See above
*should measuring for these types of problems be user
configurable or does a technical specification define
when a clip occurs
?
*can engineers safely ignore inaudible clips and tell
their clients ... not to worry
Ha ha, they do all the time :-)
Is a Fir filter a good tool for addressing the
problem
of digital clips or is there something better?
There are special, "intelligent" tools out there
(can anyone help us with names?), but no miracle cure.
Are there alternative Fir filter algorithms that
produce better results than the one being used in
Rezound? I haven't a clue what Rezound uses.
Me neither, and there are all kinds of fir filters,
but I doubt if any would be better at solving your
problem.
Dr. Oyvind Hammer
Dinosaur researcher etc.
University of Oslo
5:18 p.m.
Hi Oyvind,
--- Oyvind Hammer <oyvind.hammer(a)nhm.uio.no> wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if there's clipping below
10kHz but the example file overall mix level should
have been dropped a few decibals. Because the high hat
is mixed louder than any other instrument it's the
instrument that's level exceeded the 16bit range and
consequently it's the cause for the clips in the 10 ->
15kHz range.
Rezound does have an off flag for the clip indicator
so those nasty red lines go away. Of course that
doesn't do anything to hide those flattened off wav
patterns. Maybe we need a "take the sucky look away
button." :)
Thanks much. I've got plenty to write about and am off
to do so,
Ron Parker
Hi Ron, let me try a little on this one.
In fact, thanks much for your replies. You've very
accurately drawn conclusions about the problem that I
vaguely described and taught me a couple of
interesting details. I needed the lesson.
What's
interesting about this specific set of
clips is
that they are mostly inaudible. The clipping
occurs
around 10kHz -> 15kHz and are almost all
within
the
high hat.
This is a little strange. Althoug clipping generally
adds high-frequency content (and can be dampened a
little by a low-pass filter, effectively rounding
off
those nasty sharp bends in the curve), I would
expect
some goo below 10 kHz. Maybe it's masked by your
music. *can engineers
safely ignore inaudible clips and
tell
their clients ... not to worry
Ha ha, they do all the time :-) Dr. Oyvind Hammer
Dinosaur researcher etc.
University of Oslo
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16 Jun
16 Jun
6:36 a.m.
I'm doing a study on audio mastering. Hopefully
this
letter will generate some correspondance from which
I'll learn enough to augment a GFDL licensed document
that I've been working on.
I look forward to reading that. Mastering is a mystery to me, so I've
just sent off for a book called Mastering Audio - the Art and the
Science by Bob Katz. Are there any other titles that list members
could recommend on the subject?
I know there are specialist mastering applications on other platforms,
but what are the options on Linux? I know Audacity has recently added
a gui compressor, and Glame used to have a great normalisation tool.
Plus there's quite a few relevant LADSPA plugins - I know Steve
Harris was working on a mastering toolkit.
It seems to me we've got all the elements there, but they haven't
really been drawn together specifically for mastering yet. I'm just
compiling Glame 1.0 now to see what that's like.
Cheers
Daniel
7:16 a.m.
--- Daniel James <daniel(a)mondodesigno.com> wrote:
I've noticed that audio mastering is a mystery to many
musicians and engineers. If using a well designed
tool, the mystery will evaporate. And yes, that is
contrary to what most of us have heard during our
careers but I stand by the claims that A, mastering is
easy and B, digital audio mastering produces great
results.
There is a linux mastering tool. It hasn't been
announced yet because it's in an alpha stage of
development which is why I didn't mention the
application name in the original letter. But the cat
is out of the bag, see jamin.sourceforge.net.
Hope you like JAMIN too,
ron
so I've
I'm doing
a study on audio mastering. Hopefully
this
letter will generate some correspondance from
which
I'll learn enough to augment a GFDL licensed
document
that I've been working on.
I look forward to reading that. Mastering is a
mystery to me, just sent off for a book called Mastering Audio -
the Art and the
Science by Bob Katz. Are there any other titles that
list members
could recommend on the subject?
I know there are specialist mastering applications
on other platforms,
but what are the options on Linux? I know Audacity
has recently added
a gui compressor, and Glame used to have a great
normalisation tool.
Plus there's quite a few relevant LADSPA plugins - I
know Steve
Harris was working on a mastering toolkit.
It seems to me we've got all the elements there, but
they haven't
really been drawn together specifically for
mastering yet. I'm just
compiling Glame 1.0 now to see what that's like.
Cheers
Daniel
__________________________________
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SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com
9:10 a.m.
Have you try `ardour', I think it is good enough for audio mastering...
R Parker wrote:
--- Daniel James <daniel(a)mondodesigno.com>
wrote:
I've noticed that audio mastering is a mystery to many
musicians and engineers. If using a well designed
tool, the mystery will evaporate. And yes, that is
contrary to what most of us have heard during our
careers but I stand by the claims that A, mastering is
easy and B, digital audio mastering produces great
results.
There is a linux mastering tool. It hasn't been
announced yet because it's in an alpha stage of
development which is why I didn't mention the
application name in the original letter. But the cat
is out of the bag, see jamin.sourceforge.net.
Hope you like JAMIN too,
ron
so I've
>just sent off for a book called Mastering Audio -
>the Art and the
>Science by Bob Katz. Are there any other titles that
>list members
>could recommend on the subject?
>
>I know there are specialist mastering applications
>on other platforms,
>but what are the options on Linux? I know Audacity
>has recently added
>a gui compressor, and Glame used to have a great
>normalisation tool.
>Plus there's quite a few relevant LADSPA plugins - I
>know Steve
>Harris was working on a mastering toolkit.
>
>It seems to me we've got all the elements there, but
>they haven't
>really been drawn together specifically for
>mastering yet. I'm just
>compiling Glame 1.0 now to see what that's like.
>
>Cheers
>
>Daniel
I'm
doing a study on audio mastering. Hopefully
this
letter will generate some correspondance from
which
I'll learn enough to augment a GFDL licensed
document
that I've been working on.
I look forward to reading that. Mastering is a
mystery to me,
11:34 a.m.
Sorry, OOT. I'm new to digital audio technology ;)
I dont get it... two tracks only? Does it mean left and right channel only?
So what can ardour be used for?
When I record music (not midi) , I got bass track, drum track, guitar
track, vocal, vocal 'S', vocal 'O', etc. I think it is necessary to mix
and edit it in more than 2 track...
regards,
khad
Daniel James wrote:
Have you try
`ardour', I think it is good enough for audio
mastering...
Maybe too good, in a way. I didn't think mastering required realtime
performance, or more than two tracks, except maybe for surround
mixes.
11:50 a.m.
I dont get it... two tracks only? Does it mean left
and right
channel only?
I meant that conventionally, mastering (the final processing on the
audio before it gets made into a CD or whatever) is done on a stereo
recording, not a multitrack. Steve doesn't want to leave it at only
two tracks though, and is set to shake up the cosy world of mastering
engineers :)
So what can ardour be used for?
Ardour can do multitracking of course, but I'm not the best person to
ask about it...
Cheers
Daniel
12:18 p.m.
On Mon, Jun 16, 2003 at 08:46:46PM +0700, Khadiyd Idris wrote:
Sorry, OOT. I'm new to digital audio technology
;)
I dont get it... two tracks only? Does it mean left and right channel only?
So what can ardour be used for?
Recording and mastering are different.
When you're recording and mixing a song, you obviously need all these
extra tracks you've got. ardour is a multitrack recording software that
lets you record many tracks, overdub them, apply effects, etc, etc.
Mastering is done after the final mix to avoid a phenomenon some people
call "overmixing". If I just pass out my mix, there's a fair chance I
mixed it to sound good on my gear - and if you stick it in your car,
it'll suddenly sound all muddy and gross. Mastering is like the art of
getting a mix to sound good anywhere.
--
Ross Vandegrift
ross(a)willow.seitz.com
A Pope has a Water Cannon. It is a Water Cannon.
He fires Holy-Water from it. It is a Holy-Water Cannon.
He Blesses it. It is a Holy Holy-Water Cannon.
He Blesses the Hell out of it. It is a Wholly Holy Holy-Water Cannon.
He has it pierced. It is a Holey Wholly Holy Holy-Water Cannon.
He makes it official. It is a Canon Holey Wholly Holy Holy-Water Cannon.
Batman and Robin arrive. He shoots them.
18 Jun
18 Jun
11:36 a.m.
Ross Vandegrift wrote:
Mastering is like the art of getting a mix to sound
good anywhere.
While it is a good target to aim for it is nearly impossible as everyone
has different levels they prefer and equipment they will tweak.
Therefore I aim to make each track as clear in the mix as my ears prefer
and leave the rest up to the equipment and the consumer.
--
Patrick Shirkey - Boost Hardware Ltd.
Http://www.boosthardware.com
Http://www.djcj.org - The Linux Audio Users guide
========================================
Being on stage with the band in front of crowds shouting, "Get off! No!
We want normal music!", I think that was more like acting than anything
I've ever done.
Goldie, 8 Nov, 2002
The Scotsman
16 Jun
16 Jun
12:18 p.m.
On Mon, Jun 16, 2003 at 08:46:46PM +0700, Khadiyd Idris wrote:
When I record music (not midi) , I got bass track,
drum track, guitar
track, vocal, vocal 'S', vocal 'O', etc. I think it is necessary to mix
and edit it in more than 2 track...
Yes. That's mixing, and Ardour is a good tool for that, and handles lots
of tracks no problem.
Mastering is a final stage of processing done to the stereo mix, and
mastering is what was being discussed, and whether Ardour is also good for
that job.
The issue seems to be whether Ardour has the necessary processing
that's needed for what's loosely termed "mastering" - highly tunable EQ
and sophisticated dynamic processing such as multiband compression and
brick-wall limiting.
----
By the way, someone suggested earlier that mastering does not require
real time processing, which implies that you do not need to monitor the
result. That is only true in a limited sense; professional mastering in
the wider sense is basically getting a second pair of trained ears to
identify and fix problems in the mix.
The rec.audio.pro FAQ has a section on mastering which puts it all
into perspective.
--
Anahata
anahata(a)treewind.co.uk Tel: 01638 720444
http://www.treewind.co.uk Mob: 07976 263827
12:51 p.m.
someone suggested earlier that mastering does not
require real time processing, which implies that you do not need to
monitor the result.
Nah, I meant you probably don't care when you're listening back to the
result of mastering (either preview or final) if it takes half a
second to arrive in your speakers. That would make it less dependent
on low latency than multitrack overdubs, for example.
Cheers
Daniel
7:29 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Mastering; Rezound, fir filter, digital clipping
One thing that JAMIN has now that won't be a plugin is a 1024 band
hand-drawn EQ with slide-able "parametric" notch and shelf filters.
This is the advantage of not knowing what you're doing when you start on
an application. Steve understood what we were doing but I was just
guessing ;-)
Jan
On Mon, 2003-06-16 at 09:03, Anahata wrote:
On Mon, Jun 16, 2003 at 08:46:46PM +0700, Khadiyd
Idris wrote:
When I record music (not midi) , I got bass
track, drum track, guitar
track, vocal, vocal 'S', vocal 'O', etc. I think it is necessary to mix
and edit it in more than 2 track...
Yes. That's mixing, and Ardour is a good tool for that, and handles lots
of tracks no problem.
Mastering is a final stage of processing done to the stereo mix, and
mastering is what was being discussed, and whether Ardour is also good for
that job.
The issue seems to be whether Ardour has the necessary processing
that's needed for what's loosely termed "mastering" - highly tunable
EQ
and sophisticated dynamic processing such as multiband compression and
brick-wall limiting.
----
By the way, someone suggested earlier that mastering does not require
real time processing, which implies that you do not need to monitor the
result. That is only true in a limited sense; professional mastering in
the wider sense is basically getting a second pair of trained ears to
identify and fix problems in the mix.
The rec.audio.pro FAQ has a section on mastering which puts it all
into perspective.
--
Anahata
anahata(a)treewind.co.uk Tel: 01638 720444
http://www.treewind.co.uk Mob: 07976 263827 
11:45 a.m.
On Mon, Jun 16, 2003 at 12:58:22 +0100, Daniel James wrote:
You need to be able to preview in realtime, but the final run could be
non-realtime I guess.
Ardour doesn't really have the tools you need: very accurate meters and
(arguably) linear filters. When you see the jamin UI you will understand.
- Steve
Have you try
`ardour', I think it is good enough for audio
mastering...
Maybe too good, in a way. I didn't think mastering required realtime
performance, or more than two tracks, except maybe for surround
mixes.
1:03 p.m.
You need to be able to preview in realtime
I meant there probably isn't a need for hard realtime, ie neglible
latency. There's always going to be some latency with a preview, if
you're making a copy of the original audio to mangle, isn't there?
But I see what you mean - with a CPU intensive processing job done in
non-realtime, you could master a track on quite modest hardware.
Ardour doesn't really have the tools you need:
very accurate meters
and (arguably) linear filters.
Does Jamin use the meters from the jack meterbridge, or does it have
it's own?
It seems in the pro audio world there are specialist tools for
mastering jobs, so this seperate app approach seems reasonable here.
However, this could be a historical consequence of the fact that a
mastering engineer is a different person from the recording engineer.
Maybe mastering engineers are just ex-recording engineers who prefer
not to deal directly with musician's egos any more.
Cheers
Daniel
2:51 p.m.
On Mon, Jun 16, 2003 at 03:55:31PM +0100, Daniel James wrote:
In theory there doesn't have to be any, but in practice the processing
done in master intruduces quite a lot, up to 1/2 a second or so.
It has its own, the're peak meters. It should have a set of stereo
phase meters too, but I've not written the code yet.
You need to be
able to preview in realtime
I meant there probably isn't a need for hard realtime, ie neglible
latency. There's always going to be some latency with a preview, if
you're making a copy of the original audio to mangle, isn't there? Ardour
doesn't really have the tools you need: very accurate meters
and (arguably) linear filters.
Does Jamin use the meters from the jack meterbridge, or does it have
it's own? It seems in the pro audio world there are specialist
tools for
mastering jobs, so this seperate app approach seems reasonable here.
However, this could be a historical consequence of the fact that a
mastering engineer is a different person from the recording engineer.
No, the requirements are actually different, youre prepared to burn a lot
of cycles because its (historically) the only DSP process running and as
you said before the latency doesn't matter, so you can give the limiters a
decent lookahead time and use phase corrected filters (which have a much
higher peak latency).
Maybe mastering engineers are just ex-recording
engineers who prefer
not to deal directly with musician's egos any more.
maybe ;)
- Steve
2:11 p.m.
--- Daniel James <daniel(a)mondodesigno.com> wrote:
Mastering doesn't require realtime, that's inherint
quality from jackd. One of the reasons to develop a
jackd based mastering solution is because jackd has
soft and hard port routing which allows the JAMin
developers to focus on building a mastering solution
while someone else works on a wav player and editor.
The amount of time that's saved with jackd based
solutions is non-trivial.
When you flip the coin to the user side, jackd makes
it possible to create flexible and productive audio
environment. Again the possibilities are non-trivial.
ron
Have you try
`ardour', I think it is good enough
for audio
mastering...
Maybe too good, in a way. I didn't think mastering
required realtime
performance, or more than two tracks, except maybe
for surround
mixes. Cheers
Daniel
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com
1:58 p.m.
Hi khad,
Ardour is a great production and mixing tool but it
doesn't have any inherint facilities for the mastering
task. It's very common to not understand this but I do
clarify the purpose for each task in the documentation
that I'm working on. To the end of writing useful
mixing and mastering documentation it's a great thing
to realize how much people know about the distinction
between those tasks. The number of times that I've
displayed my ignorance on ardour-dev is comical. But I
could care less about not really knowing because I
love learning.
ron
--- khad <khad(a)landak.com> wrote:
Have you try `ardour', I think it is good enough
for
audio mastering...
R Parker wrote:
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
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--- Daniel James <daniel(a)mondodesigno.com>
wrote:
I've noticed that audio mastering is a mystery to
many
I'm
doing a study on audio mastering. Hopefully
this
letter will generate some correspondance from
which
I'll learn enough to augment a GFDL licensed
document
that I've been working on.
I look forward to reading that. Mastering is a
mystery to me, musicians and engineers. If using a well
designed
tool, the mystery will evaporate. And yes, that
is
contrary to what most of us have heard during
our
careers but I stand by the claims that A,
mastering is
easy and B, digital audio mastering produces
great
results.
There is a linux mastering tool. It hasn't been
announced yet because it's in an alpha stage of
development which is why I didn't mention the
application name in the original letter. But the
cat
is out of the bag, see jamin.sourceforge.net.
Hope you like JAMIN too,
ron
so I've
>just sent off for a book called Mastering Audio -
>the Art and the
>Science by Bob Katz. Are there any other titles
that
>list members
>could recommend on the subject?
>
>I know there are specialist mastering
applications
>on other platforms,
>but what are the options on Linux? I know
Audacity
>has recently added
>a gui compressor, and Glame used to have a great
>normalisation tool.
>Plus there's quite a few relevant LADSPA plugins
- I
>know Steve
>Harris was working on a mastering toolkit.
>
>It seems to me we've got all the elements there,
but
>they haven't
>really been drawn together specifically for
>mastering yet. I'm just
>compiling Glame 1.0 now to see what that's like.
>
>Cheers
>
>Daniel
7:03 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Mastering; Rezound, fir filter, digital clipping
Actually, all of the developers of JAMIN use Ardour. It's not designed
for mastering which is why Steve came up with the idea of building a
mastering tool.
Jan
On Mon, 2003-06-16 at 06:22, khad wrote:
Have you try `ardour', I think it is good enough
for audio mastering...
R Parker wrote:
--- Daniel James <daniel(a)mondodesigno.com>
wrote:
I've noticed that audio mastering is a mystery to many
musicians and engineers. If using a well designed
tool, the mystery will evaporate. And yes, that is
contrary to what most of us have heard during our
careers but I stand by the claims that A, mastering is
easy and B, digital audio mastering produces great
results.
There is a linux mastering tool. It hasn't been
announced yet because it's in an alpha stage of
development which is why I didn't mention the
application name in the original letter. But the cat
is out of the bag, see jamin.sourceforge.net.
Hope you like JAMIN too,
ron
so I've
>just sent off for a book called Mastering Audio -
>the Art and the
>Science by Bob Katz. Are there any other titles that
>list members
>could recommend on the subject?
>
>I know there are specialist mastering applications
>on other platforms,
>but what are the options on Linux? I know Audacity
>has recently added
>a gui compressor, and Glame used to have a great
>normalisation tool.
>Plus there's quite a few relevant LADSPA plugins - I
>know Steve
>Harris was working on a mastering toolkit.
>
>It seems to me we've got all the elements there, but
>they haven't
>really been drawn together specifically for
>mastering yet. I'm just
>compiling Glame 1.0 now to see what that's like.
>
>Cheers
>
>Daniel
I'm
doing a study on audio mastering. Hopefully
this
letter will generate some correspondance from
which
I'll learn enough to augment a GFDL licensed
document
that I've been working on.
I look forward to reading that. Mastering is a
mystery to me, 
3:16 p.m.
On Mon, Jun 16, 2003 at 02:04:41AM -0700, R Parker wrote:
I've noticed that audio mastering is a mystery to
many
musicians and engineers. If using a well designed
tool, the mystery will evaporate. And yes, that is
contrary to what most of us have heard during our
careers but I stand by the claims that A, mastering is
easy and B, digital audio mastering produces great
results.
I would agree if you mean that mastering is *technically*
easy (given appropriate tools). But it is a skill
that is learned over time. In my mind, a big part of it
is an ability to simultaneously see both the forest and the
trees very clearly.
Also, don't overlook the advantages of bringing in an
experienced ear who has not been listening to the project
for weeks nonstop. An outsider can immediately spot problems
that you've long become accustomed to and don't even notice.
--
Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
Look! Up in the sky! It's THE <I>N</I> + 1 DRONE!
(random hero from isometric.spaceninja.com)
4:12 p.m.
--- Paul Winkler <pw_lists(a)slinkp.com> wrote:
On Mon, Jun 16, 2003 at 02:04:41AM -0700, R Parker
wrote:
I don't disagree with your insites, at all, but I've
got to elaborate on my experience because I think it's
provides reason for all of us to be optomistic. For
many years we sent our mixes out of house to be
mastered. I don't know how many albums we've produced
over the years, maybe around 200 and the number of
demos and single songs is much more than that. A
couple years ago I got off my lazy butt and started
designing and building a mastering studio. We did
everything the right way.
The first time I mastered a mix in the new studio, I
was blown away. Within several minutes I stopped
working and started listening and hitting the bypass
switch. Everytime I master that experience is
reproduced.
In the early days, before we understood mastering,
clients would say "the mix sounds great in your studio
but sounds like crap everywhere else." I didn't know
what the problem was. It was very stressful. I thought
our mixes sucked.
Here's what I maintain is possible for everyone.
Within days, an aspiring mastering engineer can learn
to achieve the higher percentage of sonic potential
for a mix. Perhaps I'm not accounting for the
importance of the room accoustics and gear that we
designed into our mastering studio. There's no
debating that designed accoustical environments and
good monitors will significantly accelerate
production--not having designed environments simply
causes alot more work. But good results can still be
achieved in subpar rooms.
I've noticed that audio mastering is a
mystery to
many
musicians and engineers. If using a well
designed
tool, the mystery will evaporate. And yes, that is
contrary to what most of us have heard during our
careers but I stand by the claims that A,
mastering is
easy and B, digital audio mastering produces
great
results.
I would agree if you mean that mastering is
*technically*
easy (given appropriate tools). But it is a skill
that is learned over time. In my mind, a big part of
it
is an ability to simultaneously see both the forest
and the
trees very clearly. Also, don't overlook the advantages of bringing
in
an
experienced ear who has not been listening to the
project
for weeks nonstop. An outsider can immediately spot
problems
that you've long become accustomed to and don't even
notice.
This is also true and I take advantage of it every
chance I get. BTW, an inexpensive method I use for
surrounding myself with experienced ears is to
announce , free beer! But that can lead to too many
cooks in the kitchen. Use it with caution. Seriously
though, you're right and for me it's very rewarding to
have someone come in and teach me a thing or two.
Audio production is great fun, I sure as hell don't do
it for the money. My dentist can attest to that. In
fact if you mention my name to the dentist, they'll
wonder who the hell you're talking about.
ron
--
Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
Look! Up in the sky! It's THE <I>N</I> + 1 DRONE!
(random hero from isometric.spaceninja.com)
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com
7:43 a.m.
On Mon, Jun 16, 2003 at 09:28:22 +0100, Daniel James wrote:
I think thats going to be good, the author and publisher (focal press) has
a good reputation, other books I've read in thier series have been good.
Tell us what its like.
I'm doing
a study on audio mastering. Hopefully this
letter will generate some correspondance from which
I'll learn enough to augment a GFDL licensed document
that I've been working on.
I look forward to reading that. Mastering is a mystery to me, so I've
just sent off for a book called Mastering Audio - the Art and the
Science by Bob Katz. Are there any other titles that list members
could recommend on the subject? I know there are specialist mastering applications on
other platforms,
but what are the options on Linux? I know Audacity has recently added
a gui compressor, and Glame used to have a great normalisation tool.
Plus there's quite a few relevant LADSPA plugins - I know Steve
Harris was working on a mastering toolkit.
Its now a jack app (which mostly uses LADSPA for its processing):
http://sf.net/projects/jamin its nearing the stage where feedback on the
UI and sound quality would be useful, so if you have any spare testing
cycles please join the list.
- Steve
8:20 a.m.
I know Steve Harris was working on a mastering
toolkit.
Its now a jack app (which mostly uses LADSPA for its processing):
http://sf.net/projects/jamin its nearing the stage where feedback
on the UI and sound quality would be useful
I'll give it a go - will there a tarball release for the CVS
challenged?
We're recording plenty of material in the studio, but the mastering
definitely needs work before we can consider a CD release. Modern
recordings seem to all be very compressed and very loud, and although
I fear losing subtlety, I don't want people complaining that our CDs
are too quiet.
Can Jamin load an audio file without having Jack running? I tend to do
most of this type of audio tweaking on saved files, so realtime
operation for a program like this isn't really required here. The
fewer dependencies, the better!
Cheers
Daniel
8:52 a.m.
Daniel James wrote:
not only for those. sourceforge cvs is seriously botched atm.
jan depner provides one. he wrote to me in a private mail:
I know Steve
Harris was working on a mastering toolkit.
Its now a jack app (which mostly uses LADSPA for its processing):
http://sf.net/projects/jamin its nearing the stage where feedback
on the UI and sound quality would be useful
I'll give it a go - will there a tarball release for the CVS
challenged? I just posted a tarball on my site. Current as of my
last update
yesterday (14 June 2003).
http://myweb.cableone.net/eviltwin69/jam.tgz
Jan
works fine for me so far, except for some gui oddities. very promising.
--
All Members shall refrain in their international relations from
the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or
political independence of any state, or in any other manner
inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations.
-- Charter of the United Nations, Article 2.4
Jörn Nettingsmeier
Kurfürstenstr 49, 45138 Essen, Germany
http://spunk.dnsalias.org (my server)
http://www.linuxdj.com/audio/lad/ (Linux Audio Developers)
9:04 a.m.
On Mon, Jun 16, 2003 at 11:11:59AM +0100, Daniel James wrote:
Not yet, its not quite ready for its first release yet. As sf's CVS is a bit
messed up at the moment we could put out interrim releases, but I can't as
my external connectivity is up the wall this morning.
I know Steve
Harris was working on a mastering toolkit.
Its now a jack app (which mostly uses LADSPA for its processing):
http://sf.net/projects/jamin its nearing the stage where feedback
on the UI and sound quality would be useful
I'll give it a go - will there a tarball release for the CVS
challenged? Can Jamin load an audio file without having Jack
running? I tend to do
most of this type of audio tweaking on saved files, so realtime
operation for a program like this isn't really required here. The
fewer dependencies, the better!
JAMin cant currently run without jack, the i/o + processing code is very
complicated and making it work for i/o systems in addition to JACK
would make it even worse.
The idea is that you play the audio from a jack transport enabled player
(eg ardour, ecasound or alsaplayer) and control the transport stuff from
jamin. That doesn't work yet, but Jack O'Q. is working on it.
This means that you can link jamin to your ardour (or insert name of
favourite multitrack editor) session and make individual level changes to
source tracks, rather than messing with EQ in the mastering stage. Several
of us think this is the Right ThingTM and should be encoruaged.
jamin may grow the ability to write files out OTOH, for when you dont want
to suck it back into your multitrack, and I think the eventual idea is to
make loading a simple wav file via a jack file player pretty transparent.
- Steve
10:05 a.m.
JAMin cant currently run without jack, the i/o +
processing code is
very complicated and making it work for i/o systems in addition to
JACK would make it even worse.
Fair enough.
you can link jamin to your ardour (or insert name
of favourite multitrack editor) session and make individual level
changes to source tracks, rather than messing with EQ in the
mastering stage. Several of us think this is the Right ThingTM and
should be encoruaged.
I understood (eg, from the interview with Chris Gehringer of Sterling
Sound in June 2003 SoS) that mastering engineers didn't actually like
working on projects which aren't mixed down. It seems to me that what
you're describing is remixing rather than mastering.
Surely if you're going to EQ or otherwise filter individual tracks,
this should be well out of the way before mastering commences? LADSPA
already makes this possible, with a fine collection of plugins. But
maybe JAMin is one of those new paradigm things...
jamin may grow the ability to write files out OTOH,
for when you
dont want to suck it back into your multitrack, and I think the
eventual idea is to make loading a simple wav file via a jack file
player pretty transparent.
Presumably if the mastering plugins are all LADSPA based they might be
available to all LADSPA clients eventually? Looking at Glame 1.0,
this could be a particularly suitable platform because it allows you
to build LADSPA filter networks in a drag and drop gui, and also
offers file analysis on import and various options for normalisation.
Cheers
Daniel
11:22 a.m.
On Mon, Jun 16, 2003 at 12:57:09 +0100, Daniel James wrote:
Yes, but not everyone feels that way. The cynic in me thinks theres a
reason why mastering engineers insist on working from stereo prints, but
thats another story. As its a jack process you can use it on pre-printed
stereo WAVs too, but it doesn't prevent you from working on multitrack
sources like many mastering systems.
you can link
jamin to your ardour (or insert name
of favourite multitrack editor) session and make individual level
changes to source tracks, rather than messing with EQ in the
mastering stage. Several of us think this is the Right ThingTM and
should be encoruaged.
I understood (eg, from the interview with Chris Gehringer of Sterling
Sound in June 2003 SoS) that mastering engineers didn't actually like
working on projects which aren't mixed down. It seems to me that what
you're describing is remixing rather than mastering. Surely if you're going to EQ or otherwise filter
individual tracks,
this should be well out of the way before mastering commences? LADSPA
already makes this possible, with a fine collection of plugins. But
maybe JAMin is one of those new paradigm things...
Sometimes the act of mastering shows up problems that weren't obvious in
the mixdown stage, normally you have to either EQ away the problem (bad as
it will effect that band in all tracks) or get another print which wastes
time.
Presumably if the mastering plugins are all LADSPA
based they might be
available to all LADSPA clients eventually? Looking at Glame 1.0,
this could be a particularly suitable platform because it allows you
to build LADSPA filter networks in a drag and drop gui, and also
offers file analysis on import and various options for normalisation.
They are not all available, but I will make a version of the missing bits
(mostly multiband compression) after jamin is finsihed.
- Steve
11:44 a.m.
As its a jack process you can use it on pre-printed
stereo WAVs too, but it doesn't prevent you from working on
multitrack sources like many mastering systems.
Aha - the killer feature!
The SoS feature also said that pro mastering is dominated by just two
proprietary tools, Sonic Solutions and SADiE. I haven't ever seen
either of these, but maybe there's an angle for a Linux based
alternative here.
Cheers
Daniel
2:24 p.m.
--- Daniel James <daniel(a)mondodesigno.com> wrote:
Definitely. For one thing, the Sonic Solutions studio
I've worked in a couple times and sent our clients to
for about 20 years retails for about $8,000.00 USD.
Well, that's what the engineer told me. I've never
actually looked into it so that figure could be
completely wrong. Maybe it's $80.00 USD :)
A great preview of the possibilities that I see for a
jackd mastering chain is Rezound to JAMin. Neither
application has jackd transport control but if they
both have it we've almost got Sonic Solutions by the
throat. Transport control for JAMin is actively being
developed now. There's some wav viewing functionality
that could be written into Rezound that would greatly
enhance the mastering task. But Rezound almost has
that covered already. IMO, this is a very promising
environment.
BTW, the only jack client wav editer/player at the
moment is Rezound.
ron
As its a jack
process you can use it on
pre-printed
stereo WAVs too, but it doesn't prevent you
from
working on
multitrack sources like many mastering systems.
Aha - the killer feature!
The SoS feature also said that pro mastering is
dominated by just two
proprietary tools, Sonic Solutions and SADiE. I
haven't ever seen
either of these, but maybe there's an angle for a
Linux based
alternative here. Cheers
Daniel
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18 Jun
18 Jun
11:43 a.m.
R Parker wrote:
BTW, the only jack client wav editer/player at the
moment is Rezound.
There's alsop ecawave or tkeca or something like that.
--
Patrick Shirkey - Boost Hardware Ltd.
Http://www.boosthardware.com
Http://www.djcj.org - The Linux Audio Users guide
========================================
Being on stage with the band in front of crowds shouting, "Get off! No!
We want normal music!", I think that was more like acting than anything
I've ever done.
Goldie, 8 Nov, 2002
The Scotsman
1:28 p.m.
--- Patrick Shirkey <pshirkey(a)boosthardware.com>
wrote:
R Parker wrote:
Right on. However, ecasound is a nondestructive DAW
right?
Please tolerate my elaborations, I know some of us
understand mastering but some of us don't.
I can't tell you all the reasons for why a destructive
wav editor is the correct solution for mastering. But
I can provide one simple example. Consider the heads
and tails of a mix. These must be eliminated. Not just
in representation i.e. trimming an ardour peak file
start and stop point. But they can't exist at all.
They've got to be destroyed. This is analogous to the
old razor blade tape cutting days where the multitrack
mixes were dumped to two track tape and the two track
tape was cut and spliced to adjust timing between
songs.
Multitrack nondestructive DAWs aren't designed for
this task. Timing between songs is one part of the
mastering engineers responsibilities.
Because wav editors are destructive, their final
product can be dumped onto the filesystem and then any
CD burning application can be used to order and time
the song list.
Ardour has an incomplete feature set for exporting CD
markers. This is a great thing for burning rough mixes
to CD. But it doesn't fulfill the requirements of a
robust mastering solution.
OK, to venture off topic and risk greying the lines. A
DAW can be the ultimate mastering environment. But
nobody has developed the solution and many engineers
don't understand and reject the notion. Daniel James
accurately anticipate this--if I interpreted his
comment correctly.
Consider inserting JAMin in its full implementation
post Ardour stereo buss. This is an awesome prospect
for many reasons. However it has a glaring weakness.
How to put 10 multitrack songs on the time line and
perform all the tedious mastering tasks including the
timing between songs which I mentioned above.
This is possible with the Ardour chunks. A chunk in
Ardour as I described but isn't implemented or working
can represent many tracks. The chunk appears as one
track. Chunks can be copied and pasted anywhere. Those
tracks within a chunk can have any start and stop
point. This type of Ardour chunk makes two things
possible; A the ultimate song arrangement interface
and B the ultimate mastering interface.
B is contingent on being able to open arbitrary chunks
in a common session. AFAIK, there is no equivalent,
not in protools, digital performer, tdm, etc. Imagine
that the ardour master-chunk.session represents 10
songs with 24 tracks in each. :) That's 240 tracks
where all automation and DSP is in tact to the
multitrack layer and it's computationaly no more
expensive than one twenty four track session.
Maybe my old man was right and I'm just a turd tossing
tree dweller but I suspect this environment would do
for the surgical treatment of audio the equivalent of
what radiation therapy has done to the practice of
blood letting with leeches.
Ah what the hell, I need more coffee.
ron "i love leeches, but only for fishing" parker
BTW, the only jack client wav editer/player at the
moment is Rezound.
There's alsop ecawave or tkeca or something like
that. --
Patrick Shirkey - Boost Hardware Ltd.
Http://www.boosthardware.com
Http://www.djcj.org - The Linux Audio Users guide
========================================
Being on stage with the band in front of crowds
shouting, "Get off! No!
We want normal music!", I think that was more like
acting than anything
I've ever done.
Goldie, 8 Nov, 2002
The Scotsman
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16 Jun
16 Jun
3:02 p.m.
On Mon, Jun 16, 2003 at 02:36:35PM +0100, Daniel James wrote:
I got to prod a SADiE system a few years back, its kinda similar to what
we have in mind for the timeline stuff, but it let you arrange audio
segments too (we're not planning to do that, use ardour).
Infact it works more like JAMIN than the current mac/windows hosted tools
do, in that its independent, theres nothing to stop you piping live
multitrack audio into a SADiE system from what I remember. Infact it may
even have had multirack inputs for internal mixing, but I can't quite
remember.
I wonder if they have manuals online.
- Steve
As its a jack
process you can use it on pre-printed
stereo WAVs too, but it doesn't prevent you from working on
multitrack sources like many mastering systems.
Aha - the killer feature!
The SoS feature also said that pro mastering is dominated by just two
proprietary tools, Sonic Solutions and SADiE. I haven't ever seen
either of these, but maybe there's an angle for a Linux based
alternative here.
1:25 p.m.
--- Daniel James <daniel(a)mondodesigno.com> wrote:
Besides the JAM of JAMin is an acronym JACK Audio
Master. :)
Put into other words, Steve is saying that JAMin
creates a greater distinction between the
responsibilities of mixing and mastering engineers
when using the multitrack as the source to the
mastering application.
Mastering engineers often discover mix problems
because mastering is being performed on different
monitors and in differnt rooms. The primary objective
of mastering is to make sure the mix sounds great
everywhere that it's played. The odds for achieving
that objective are greatly improved everytime a new
monitor and room tell you a new story about a mix.
Consider a mix in the mastering studio where the new
accoustical environment reveals that the kick drum
boom is 5db to hot.
The traditional solution when mastering stereo files
is to cut 5db of 250Hz. The problem with that is many
instruments rely on 250Hz to give them the correct
presence. So cutting 5db on the stereo file has a
negative affect on those other instruments. Thus a
situation for compromise is created.
Of course when using the multitrack as the mastering
source, the solution is to cut the kick drum by 5db.
No compromise is created and the amount of time for
achieving the maximum sonic potential for that mix is
significanlty reduced.
It's important to maintain the distinct roles of
mixing and mastering but that's a no brainer, simply
do not use JAMin until you've exausted the
opportunities for improving the mix.
The only problem we can't solve with multitrack
sources for mastering is how to put ten of them on an
timeline. That's not a particularly pretty session.
This problem will probably cause many people to forgo
the multitrack mastering source strategy and use JAMin
in conjuction with a JACK wav editor player like
Rezound.
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JAMin cant
currently run without jack, the i/o +
processing code is
very complicated and making it work for i/o
systems in addition to
JACK would make it even worse.
Fair enough. you can link
jamin to your ardour (or insert name
of favourite multitrack editor) session and make
individual level
changes to source tracks, rather than messing
with
EQ in the
mastering stage. Several of us think this is the
Right ThingTM and
should be encoruaged.
I understood (eg, from the interview with Chris
Gehringer of Sterling
Sound in June 2003 SoS) that mastering engineers
didn't actually like
working on projects which aren't mixed down. It
seems to me that what
you're describing is remixing rather than mastering. Surely if you're going to EQ or otherwise filter
individual tracks,
this should be well out of the way before mastering
commences?
Absolutely not, see above.
LADSPA
already makes this possible, with a fine collection
of plugins. But
maybe JAMin is one of those new paradigm things...
JAMin makes the absolute otpimal mastering environment
achievable. Thus a new paradigm. :) Unfortunately
there's the problem with managing many multitrack
songs within one session. Until that problem is
solved, multitracks as sources for mastering will
never replace stereo track mastering which is
unfortunate.
I better get some coffee and shutup,
ron
jamin may grow
the ability to write files out
OTOH, for when you
dont want to suck it back into your multitrack,
and I think the
eventual idea is to make loading a simple wav
file
via a jack file
player pretty transparent.
Presumably if the mastering plugins are all LADSPA
based they might be
available to all LADSPA clients eventually? Looking
at Glame 1.0,
this could be a particularly suitable platform
because it allows you
to build LADSPA filter networks in a drag and drop
gui, and also
offers file analysis on import and various options
for normalisation.
Cheers
Daniel
2:10 p.m.
JAMin
creates a greater distinction between the
responsibilities of mixing and mastering engineers
when using the multitrack as the source to the
mastering application.
I guess this could work as long as all parties understand the
demarcation. I can imagine resistance from mastering engineers who
might regard a multitrack project as 'unfinished', or not want to
take responsibility for the mix.
On the other hand, I'd love to be able this kind of flexibility, but
it would depend on having Ardour or something compatible with our
multitrack project files at every stage in the chain.
Cheers
Daniel
2:45 p.m.
On Mon, Jun 16, 2003 at 05:02:01PM +0100, Daniel James wrote:
On the other hand, I'd love to be able this kind
of flexibility, but
it would depend on having Ardour or something compatible with our
multitrack project files at every stage in the chain.
No, beacuse as jack is very modular you can like the stereo outs of ardour
to jamin's inputs and use jack transport to sync them.
It does require a fair ammount of horsepower though, as jamin is pretty
heavy.
- Steve
3 p.m.
as jack is very modular you can like the stereo outs
of ardour
to jamin's inputs and use jack transport to sync them.
But if I take my audio to a mastering place and they only run Windows
XP...
Unfortunately technological conservatism is prevalent in the creative
industries. In design, they're still using Apple - because they
bought Apple 15 years ago, not because it's inherently better.
When I used Quark Xpress it couldn't even make a decent index, but
just try gettting a book or magazine printed from any other file
format.
Cheers
Daniel
3:22 p.m.
On Mon, Jun 16, 2003 at 05:52:09PM +0100, Daniel James wrote:
They you have to take a 2-track print anyway.
If they were running Linux OTOH then they could accept either a 2track
print or a multitrack copy, assuming they had some way of getting the
tracks into jack, might involve an ADAT or ardour reading some standard
format, if such a thing exists.
- Steve
as jack is
very modular you can like the stereo outs of ardour
to jamin's inputs and use jack transport to sync them.
But if I take my audio to a mastering place and they only run Windows
XP...
3:33 p.m.
--- Steve Harris <S.W.Harris(a)ecs.soton.ac.uk> wrote:
On Mon, Jun 16, 2003 at 05:52:09PM +0100, Daniel
James wrote:
Or you could use yet another unannounced application
that's being worked on that will perform P2P ardour
file session exchanges and also merge differences from
either side. This application is unavailable for the
moment. It was titled ArdourExchange but we're
thinking that because it's seperate from Ardour and
performs Session Exchange tasks it could be titled
SEX. So, maybe all of us will start having SEX
together. Yowza!
Oh the possibilities,
ron
> as jack is very modular you can like the
stereo
outs of ardour
> to jamin's inputs and use jack transport
to sync
them.
But if I take my audio to a mastering place and
they only run Windows
XP...
They you have to take a 2-track print anyway.
If they were running Linux OTOH then they could
accept either a 2track
print or a multitrack copy, assuming they had some
way of getting the
tracks into jack, might involve an ADAT or ardour
reading some standard
format, if such a thing exists. - Steve
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3:20 p.m.
--- Daniel James <daniel(a)mondodesigno.com> wrote:
I believe that what you imagine is absolutely real.
But my attitude is, fine and dandy let "resistant"
mastering engineers tell an artist who just maxed out
their credit card for a $3,000.00 album production
budget that they need to return to the mixing studio
to cut the kick drum by 5db when the mixing studio
costs $50.00 an hour and the mastering studio costs
$100.00 an hour.
Mastering has been shrouded in a mystique that's born
from ignorance. I can make that claim because
ignorance is my personal experience. :) But the days
of using attitudes like the one you're refering to are
numbered because every kid in the world has recording
and mastering studios in their bedrooms.
Mastering is about achieving sonic potential. Ardour
is a mixing tool. When you finish mixing with Ardour
and every other DAW about %50 or %60 of the sonic
potential of a rock/pop song is realized. A "good"
song production in the low budget world, almost
everyone you and I know, can take 12 hours to print
and mix. It'll take an hour to produce the remaining
sonic potential for that song. Mastering is big juju!
I probably shouldn't argue about how easy mastering is
because 20 feet from me is an accoustically designed
mastering studio that I designed, built, paid for and
own. But I love music and working with artists and the
more the artist and I accomplish, the happier I am.
When I encounter "resistance" I bristle with
intolerance and I think everyone of us should reject
that shit like it were the black microsoft plague. :)
ron
JAMin
creates a greater distinction between the
responsibilities of mixing and mastering engineers
when using the multitrack as the source to the
mastering application.
I guess this could work as long as all parties
understand the
demarcation. I can imagine resistance from mastering
engineers who
might regard a multitrack project as 'unfinished',
or not want to
take responsibility for the mix. On the other hand, I'd love to be able this kind
of
flexibility, but
it would depend on having Ardour or something
compatible with our
multitrack project files at every stage in the
chain.
Cheers
Daniel
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2:36 p.m.
I better get some coffee and shutup,
ron
Nahh....get the coffee but don't shut up. You saved me 15 minutes writing
all of that down.
I think one point that is getting overlooked by a few folks here is that
often the tracks on a commercial CD are not done on the same tools, or even
in the same studio. They may not be done by the same tracking engineer, or
the same mixing engineer. One may be done in London and another in LA, all
using different people, with each track having it's own sound and
characteristics.
A major task of the mastering engineer is to put all of this together into a
final product that sounds consistent and works together. The mental tools,
and ears, required to do that are potentially quite different than those
used to get the tracks on disk...
Cheers,
Mark
4:25 p.m.
On Mon, Jun 16, 2003 at 09:24:01AM -0700, Mark Knecht wrote:
I think one point that is getting overlooked by a few
folks here is that
often the tracks on a commercial CD are not done on the same tools, or even
in the same studio. They may not be done by the same tracking engineer, or
the same mixing engineer. One may be done in London and another in LA, all
using different people, with each track having it's own sound and
characteristics.
A major task of the mastering engineer is to put all of this together into a
final product that sounds consistent and works together. The mental tools,
and ears, required to do that are potentially quite different than those
used to get the tracks on disk...
Indeed. The last CD that my band recorded was done in 2 very different
studios:
A) 48-track DA-88 studio with tracking engineer Shari and mixing
engineer Dave.
B) 16-track 2" analog / 24-track ProTools hybrid studio with
tracking & mixing engineers Mike &
as you'd imagine, the resulting tracks were quite different.
The transitions between A and B on the released CD are quite smooth
and not at all obvious - you have to listen closely to the drum
compression to notice which is 2" and which is DA-88, that makes
it obvious to my ears.
I own a CD by one of my favorite bands that was done in a similar
way, and the mastering engineer was asleep at the switch IMHO.
The two studios are night and day and the transitions are jarring.
--
Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
Look! Up in the sky! It's ULTI IDEAS!
(random hero from isometric.spaceninja.com)
7:18 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Mastering; Rezound, fir filter, digital clipping
Daniel,
The first time I ran multiple tracks right out of Ardour into JAMIN Ron
P. thought I had lost my mind. Since I'm not a mastering engineer I
thought this might be an interesting thing to do. Once Ron got over
yelling "heretic" and "blasphemer" he kind of liked the idea ;-)
Actually, it's just a nice way to preview the mastering session. That
way if you discover that there is something that you really can't deal
with or don't like you can tweak the mix and the mastering parameters at
the same time. It's really very handy. After I have previewed the
track I'll go back and dump a stereo mix and then master that.
Jan
On Mon, 2003-06-16 at 06:57, Daniel James wrote:
JAMin cant
currently run without jack, the i/o + processing code is
very complicated and making it work for i/o systems in addition to
JACK would make it even worse.
Fair enough.
you can link jamin to your ardour (or insert
name
of favourite multitrack editor) session and make individual level
changes to source tracks, rather than messing with EQ in the
mastering stage. Several of us think this is the Right ThingTM and
should be encoruaged.
I understood (eg, from the interview with Chris Gehringer of Sterling
Sound in June 2003 SoS) that mastering engineers didn't actually like
working on projects which aren't mixed down. It seems to me that what
you're describing is remixing rather than mastering.
Surely if you're going to EQ or otherwise filter individual tracks,
this should be well out of the way before mastering commences? LADSPA
already makes this possible, with a fine collection of plugins. But
maybe JAMin is one of those new paradigm things...
jamin may grow the ability to write files out
OTOH, for when you
dont want to suck it back into your multitrack, and I think the
eventual idea is to make loading a simple wav file via a jack file
player pretty transparent.
Presumably if the mastering plugins are all LADSPA based they might be
available to all LADSPA clients eventually? Looking at Glame 1.0,
this could be a particularly suitable platform because it allows you
to build LADSPA filter networks in a drag and drop gui, and also
offers file analysis on import and various options for normalisation.
Cheers
Daniel 
7:30 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Mastering; Rezound, fir filter, digitalclipping
Hi Jan:
I get a 404 Not Found from the URL you posted for the JAM tarball.
I'll try to keep the tarball on my site up to date
since CVS is hosed.
http://myweb.cableone.net/eviltwin69/jamin.tgz
Best regards,
== Dave Phillips
8:45 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Mastering; Rezound, fir filter, digitalclipping
Sorry, just fixed.
Jan
On Mon, 2003-06-16 at 16:23, Dave Phillips wrote:
Hi Jan:
I get a 404 Not Found from the URL you posted for the JAM tarball.
I'll try to keep the tarball on my site up to
date since CVS is hosed.
http://myweb.cableone.net/eviltwin69/jamin.tgz
Best regards,
== Dave Phillips
8:59 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Mastering; Rezound, fir filter,digitalclipping
Hi Jan:
It is fixed. Thanks !
Best regards,
== dp
Jan Depner wrote:
Sorry, just fixed.
Jan
On Mon, 2003-06-16 at 16:23, Dave Phillips wrote:
> Hi Jan:
>
> I get a 404 Not Found from the URL you posted for the JAM tarball.
>
> > I'll try to keep the tarball on my site up to date since CVS is hosed.
> > http://myweb.cableone.net/eviltwin69/jamin.tgz
>
> Best regards,
>
> == Dave Phillips
7:01 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Mastering; Rezound, fir filter, digital clipping
Steve,
I'll try to keep the tarball on my site up to date since CVS is hosed.
http://myweb.cableone.net/eviltwin69/jamin.tgz
Jan
On Mon, 2003-06-16 at 05:47, Steve Harris wrote:
On Mon, Jun 16, 2003 at 11:11:59AM +0100, Daniel James
wrote:
Not yet, its not quite ready for its first release yet. As sf's CVS is a bit
messed up at the moment we could put out interrim releases, but I can't as
my external connectivity is up the wall this morning.
I know
Steve Harris was working on a mastering toolkit.
Its now a jack app (which mostly uses LADSPA for its processing):
http://sf.net/projects/jamin its nearing the stage where feedback
on the UI and sound quality would be useful
I'll give it a go - will there a tarball release for the CVS
challenged? Can Jamin load an audio file without having Jack
running? I tend to do
most of this type of audio tweaking on saved files, so realtime
operation for a program like this isn't really required here. The
fewer dependencies, the better!
JAMin cant currently run without jack, the i/o + processing code is very
complicated and making it work for i/o systems in addition to JACK
would make it even worse.
The idea is that you play the audio from a jack transport enabled player
(eg ardour, ecasound or alsaplayer) and control the transport stuff from
jamin. That doesn't work yet, but Jack O'Q. is working on it.
This means that you can link jamin to your ardour (or insert name of
favourite multitrack editor) session and make individual level changes to
source tracks, rather than messing with EQ in the mastering stage. Several
of us think this is the Right ThingTM and should be encoruaged.
jamin may grow the ability to write files out OTOH, for when you dont want
to suck it back into your multitrack, and I think the eventual idea is to
make loading a simple wav file via a jack file player pretty transparent.
- Steve
7:46 p.m.
On Mon, Jun 16, 2003 at 03:23:09PM -0500, Jan Depner wrote:
Steve,
I'll try to keep the tarball on my site up to date since CVS is hosed.
http://myweb.cableone.net/eviltwin69/jamin.tgz
Thats great, thanks, I'm CCing the JAMin list, hope you dont mind ;)
- Steve
8:45 p.m.
New subject: [Jamin] Re: [linux-audio-user] Mastering; Rezound, fir filter, digital clipping
Fine with me. I just posted a commit to JAMin with the link.
Jan
On Mon, 2003-06-16 at 16:33, Steve Harris wrote:
On Mon, Jun 16, 2003 at 03:23:09PM -0500, Jan Depner
wrote:
Steve,
I'll try to keep the tarball on my site up to date since CVS is hosed.
http://myweb.cableone.net/eviltwin69/jamin.tgz
Thats great, thanks, I'm CCing the JAMin list, hope you dont mind ;)
- Steve
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19 Jun
19 Jun
10:50 a.m.
I've
just sent off for a book called Mastering Audio - the Art and the
Science by Bob Katz.
Tell us what its like.
20 Jun
20 Jun
5:29 p.m.
--- Daniel James <daniel(a)mondodesigno.com> wrote:
I've just had it delivered - on first glance it
looks laid out well,
and the content appears to be mostly about digital +
analogue, not
just the analogue theory like you might find in an
old library book.
If I've got a reservation it's that much of the
hardware the book
talks about is seriously high end proprietary stuff
and out of my
price range, but it looks like the pro kit alright.
Hopefully I'll
gain some insights that I can use with our
relatively low-budget 100%
software libre approach...
Reguardless of how well we emulate or fail to, the
principles of usage for the tools are similar. It
should be a helpful book. I've never read it or
anything written by Bob Katz. However, I do have some
excellent third party derived conclusions. Someone
said, that Bob Katz said, he likes applying eq to left
and right channels as seperate entities. Instinct
tells me that's a pretty bad idea.
He, Katz, said, or so it has been said that he said
that he likes using reverb during a mastering session.
I've been of the opinion that mastering engineers
don't have any business applying reverb to my mixes.
Never! Shortly after chiseling that into a rock on the
mountain, I turned a 180 when a filter killed the
dynamics of an intro that was full of tape hiss.
Reverb could have restored the sheenie shimmer. If you
know what I mean, then at least one of us does.
Hopefully I learn something once a year.
ron
> I've
> just sent off for a book called Mastering Audio
- the Art and the
Science
by Bob Katz.
Tell us what its like. Cheers
Daniel
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21 Jun
21 Jun
6:47 a.m.
I've never read it or
anything written by Bob Katz.
He runs a studio called Digital Domain. I thought that might have
something to do with the place that rendered Titanic on a Linux
cluster, but I think that place is in LA and apparently Bob is in
Florida. Could be the same firm though.
It seems Bob has invented a number of pieces of dedicated mastering
hardware too.
Cheers
Daniel
7750
days inactive
7758
days old
linux-audio-user@lists.linuxaudio.org
64 comments
17 participants
participants (17)
-
Anahata -
Daniel James -
Dave Phillips -
Jan Depner -
Jesse Chappell -
Joern Nettingsmeier -
khad -
Khadiyd Idris
-
luis jure -
Mark Knecht -
Mark Knecht -
Oyvind Hammer -
Patrick Shirkey -
Paul Winkler -
R Parker -
Ross Vandegrift -
Steve Harris