2 Feb
2021
2 Feb
'21
12:55 p.m.
Hey David!
Thank you for your comments!
"I listened to Droning 300 today and the instruments sounded just like the
ones my friend uses in his FL Studio songs."
You mean "Healing Fountain"? Healing Fountain is all DSP and samples that I
created myself. There is a glissando that uses some sort of marimba, but
even the "laser" sound is the sound that I created myself from scratch
using 3xOSC synth.
In general, if you avoid using exactly the same presets, I think it's very
difficult to gauge what you use to create music. If you would go back to my
droning project, I doubt that in most cases you can tell when I used FL
Studio and when I used my Linux Audio setup.
"getting good sound and high quality mixing required tools that are simply
unavailable on Linux today.
Really?"
Unfortunately.
I think I won't make a claim that it is totally impossible, but it's
definitely not trivial. I have produced hundreds of tunes with Linux Audio
and explored loads of tools during that time, but I couldn't even find an
EQ that would work well for me. There is one EQ product that seems ok, but
for me it was unstable and kept crashing my projects.
Additionally, high quality plugins matter, just like high quality equipment
matters. I was using ZynReverb while on Linux and it created all sorts of
problems for me. The quality of my mixes has changed dramatically when I
switched to Valhalla, because it's reverb made by a company that put a
decade into perfecting it. They made sure, for example, that it would
produce a smoother sound, heal resonating frequencies, etc. They have a
description of this on their website and a YouTube channel too.
Louigi Verona
https://louigiverona.com/
3 Feb
3 Feb
5:19 a.m.
New subject: project "droning": 10 years, 300 tracks
On 2/2/21 1:55 AM, Louigi Verona wrote:
Hey David!
Yo, The Louigi!
Thank you for your comments!
"I listened to Droning 300 today and the instruments sounded just like
the ones my friend uses in his FL Studio songs."
You mean "Healing Fountain"? Healing Fountain is all DSP and samples
that I created myself. There is a glissando that uses some sort of
marimba, but even the "laser" sound is the sound that I created myself
from scratch using 3xOSC synth.
It sounded like the more-or-less standard FL Studio strings to me. Maybe
I'm mixing #300 up with one of the other ones produced with FL Studio.
In general, if you avoid using exactly the same
presets, I think it's
very difficult to gauge what you use to create music. If you would go
back to my droning project, I doubt that in most cases you can tell
when I used FL Studio and when I used my Linux Audio setup.
"getting good sound and high quality mixing required tools that are
simply unavailable on Linux today.
Really?"
Unfortunately.
Could be my ears, but the only time I ran into a reverb that caused me
problems with sound turned out to be my own fault - I ran it through the
reverb a couple of times, I think that amplified or otherwise brought
out any effects the reverb might have had on the frequency spectrum.
I'm not a pro and only listening on headphones. Listening to your
earlier tracks compared to the newest ones gives me no awareness of a
"quality" difference.
I think I won't make a claim that it is totally
impossible, but it's
definitely not trivial. I have produced hundreds of tunes with Linux
Audio and explored loads of tools during that time, but I couldn't
even find an EQ that would work well for me. There is one EQ product
that seems ok, but for me it was unstable and kept crashing my projects.
Which one was that? I haven't used any EQs at all.
Additionally, high quality plugins matter, just like
high quality
equipment matters. I was using ZynReverb while on Linux and it created
all sorts of problems for me. The quality of my mixes has changed
dramatically when I switched to Valhalla, because it's reverb made by
a company that put a decade into perfecting it. They made sure, for
example, that it would produce a smoother sound, heal resonating
frequencies, etc. They have a description of this on their website and
a YouTube channel too.
Cool.
What I'm more curious about is how you make dronings. I've not done any,
just regular music things, and that process alone takes forever -
multiple listen throughs, tweak, listen through. Some of your tracks are
very long, like droning142, a bit over 2 hours long. I think of them
almost as computer programs. Do you repeatedly listen through each and
tweak as you make one?
--
David W. Jones
gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
http://dancingtreefrog.com
"My password is the last 8 digits of π."
9:34 a.m.
New subject: project "droning": 10 years, 300 tracks
[Louigi Verona]
I think I won't make a claim that it is totally
impossible, but it's
definitely not trivial. I have produced hundreds of tunes with Linux Audio
and explored loads of tools during that time, but I couldn't even find an
EQ that would work well for me. There is one EQ product that seems ok, but
for me it was unstable and kept crashing my projects.
you know that on linux, it used to be customary that when a program or
library did not meet our expectations, we'd either start working on
the code ourselves if possible, or at least offer our valuable insight
to the creators of that application.
surely you have contacted the authors of the software you criticize so
publicly and offered your help?
tim
10:02 a.m.
New subject: project "droning": 10 years, 300 tracks
On 2/3/21 12:34 AM, Tim Goetze wrote:
[Louigi Verona]
It not like he's not know in the community and among developers. He
talked and written extensively:
https://youtu.be/LwNXn7OKVzY?t=195
http://www.louigiverona.com/?page=projects&s=writings&t=philosophy
I have produced hundreds of tunes with Linux
Audio
and explored loads of tools during that time, but I couldn't even find an
EQ that would work well for me.
surely you have contacted the authors of the
software you criticize so
publicly and offered your help?
tim
10:41 a.m.
New subject: project "droning": 10 years, 300 tracks
[Hank Stanglow]
On 2/3/21 12:34 AM, Tim Goetze wrote:
thanks Hank,
i have never been contacted by Louigi about my EQ or reverb plugins,
and they have been around for ages (i think they're even included in
standard ubuntu and other distros).
i'm not saying my plugins are perfect (they certainly aren't) or that
Louigi absolutely *has* to use them.
but i do think Louigi's sweeping criticism of *all* of linux audio is
painting with a bit too broad a brush given that from my point of
view, he talks a lot but not to actual developers.
[Louigi Verona]
It not like he's not know in the community and among developers. He talked
and
written extensively:
https://youtu.be/LwNXn7OKVzY?t=195
http://www.louigiverona.com/?page=projects&s=writings&t=philosophy I have produced hundreds of tunes with Linux
Audio
and explored loads of tools during that time, but I couldn't even find an
EQ that would work well for me.
surely you have contacted the authors of the
software you criticize so
publicly and offered your help?
tim
12:17 p.m.
New subject: project "droning": 10 years, 300 tracks
Hey Tim!
I think we have to always take into account that with open source it
becomes personal very quickly. Unlike commercial products, an open source
program is likely to be coded by someone in our community.
But we also have to be careful to not suppress any and all criticism simply
because someone might be unhappy that their work is criticized. I have
written a small essay about criticizing FLOSS here
<https://louigiverona.com/?page=projects&s=writings&t=philosophy&a=philosophy_criticizefloss>.
You might disagree with it, of course, but I am just pointing out that I
gave it some thought.
And my needs as an ambient composer are pretty special.
In case of project "droning", you tend to work with long sounds where
resonating frequencies could be a huge problem. But this is not necessarily
a problem for other uses. I don't know which EQs and reverbs you've
authored, I don't know if I've ever used your work, but I need long lush
reverbs for my work. If your reverb is plate reverb, for instance, I have
nothing to say about it.
I also have no idea what to report. If there is a way to constructively
criticize, say, Freeverb, I don't know how to do it. I am simply not an
expert in creating algorithmic reverbs: I am a consumer of reverbs. All I
know is that with Valhalla the result is dramatically different.
Louigi Verona
https://louigiverona.com/
On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 9:34 AM Tim Goetze <tim(a)quitte.de> wrote:
[Louigi Verona]
I think I won't make a claim that it is
totally impossible, but it's
definitely not trivial. I have produced hundreds of tunes with Linux Audio
and explored loads of tools during that time, but I couldn't even find an
EQ that would work well for me. There is one EQ product that seems ok, but
for me it was unstable and kept crashing my projects.
you know that on linux, it used to be customary that when a program or
library did not meet our expectations, we'd either start working on
the code ourselves if possible, or at least offer our valuable insight
to the creators of that application.
surely you have contacted the authors of the software you criticize so
publicly and offered your help?
tim
12:36 p.m.
New subject: project "droning": 10 years, 300 tracks
On Tue, Feb 02, 2021 at 12:55:08PM +0100, Louigi Verona wrote:
I think I won't make a claim that it is totally
impossible, but it's
definitely not trivial. I have produced hundreds of tunes with Linux Audio
and explored loads of tools during that time, but I couldn't even find an
EQ that would work well for me. There is one EQ product that seems ok, but
for me it was unstable and kept crashing my projects.
There are two different aspects to this.
1. Things that crash are clearly no acceptable. Yet there is a lot of stuff
in the linuxaudio world that do crash or become unstable in some way or
another. It's usually due to a programmer being inexperienced in real-time
programming, or just copying some equation from a textbook or website without
really understanding it.
2. Then there is the question of what it meant by 'EQ'. For classical music
recording, if EQ is used at all it will be minimal, at most a few dB and
in wide and smooth bands. The aim is always to make things sound natural,
not to create an effect. The same is basically true for popular music, even
if EQ settings will be more pronounced and agressive.
What you seem to expect from EQ (reading your last post about Healing
Fountain) is quite different. Most EQs are not designed to completely
remove a frequency band or have very steep cutoff slopes, for the simple
reason that in 'traditional' audio (recording and mixing real physical
instruments) that is quite useless and would sound very bad.
So it could well be that you don't find what you need in Linux audio,
but that has little to do with the quality of what is available.
Ciao,
--
FA
1:24 p.m.
New subject: project "droning": 10 years, 300 tracks
EQ is not just the DSP. It's all of it - the DSP and the UI.
Take, for instance, ZynEq 10. And let's say that it's DSP is perfect. The
reason why I would consider it to be less usable than the EQ
<https://www.image-line.com/fl-studio-learning/fl-studio-online-manual/html/plugins/Fruity%20Parametric%20EQ%202.htm>
I'm using in FL Studio is because ZynEq is really limited: the bands are
fixed, you cannot move them around. The Q setting is global: you cannot
make one band wide and the other narrow. It doesn't allow you to change the
slope type or band type. There's no way to solo a band. There's no way to
store a state and switch between the current state and another one, to hear
the difference.
All of this reduces my accuracy and/or makes the process very difficult and
slow. Regardless of whether I want to cut something out or just apply a
broad fix.
That's what I am talking about when it comes to EQs.
Louigi Verona
https://louigiverona.com/
On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 12:36 PM Fons Adriaensen <fons(a)linuxaudio.org> wrote:
On Tue, Feb 02, 2021 at 12:55:08PM +0100, Louigi
Verona wrote:
I think I won't make a claim that it is
totally impossible, but it's
definitely not trivial. I have produced hundreds of tunes with Linux
Audio
and explored loads of tools during that time, but
I couldn't even find an
EQ that would work well for me. There is one EQ product that seems ok,
but
for me it was unstable and kept crashing my
projects.
There are two different aspects to this.
1. Things that crash are clearly no acceptable. Yet there is a lot of stuff
in the linuxaudio world that do crash or become unstable in some way or
another. It's usually due to a programmer being inexperienced in real-time
programming, or just copying some equation from a textbook or website
without
really understanding it.
2. Then there is the question of what it meant by 'EQ'. For classical music
recording, if EQ is used at all it will be minimal, at most a few dB and
in wide and smooth bands. The aim is always to make things sound natural,
not to create an effect. The same is basically true for popular music, even
if EQ settings will be more pronounced and agressive.
What you seem to expect from EQ (reading your last post about Healing
Fountain) is quite different. Most EQs are not designed to completely
remove a frequency band or have very steep cutoff slopes, for the simple
reason that in 'traditional' audio (recording and mixing real physical
instruments) that is quite useless and would sound very bad.
So it could well be that you don't find what you need in Linux audio,
but that has little to do with the quality of what is available.
Ciao,
--
FA
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Linux-audio-user(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-user
4 Feb
4 Feb
10:50 p.m.
New subject: project "droning": 10 years, 300 tracks
Cheers Louigi,
EQ is not just the DSP. It's all of it - the DSP
and the UI.
Take, for instance, ZynEq 10. And let's say that it's DSP is perfect. The
reason why I would consider it to be less usable than the EQ
<https://www.image-line.com/fl-studio-learning/fl-studio-online-manual/html/plugins/Fruity%20Parametric%20EQ%202.htm>
I'm using in FL Studio is because ZynEq is really limited: the bands are
fixed, you cannot move them around. The Q setting is global: you cannot
make one band wide and the other narrow. It doesn't allow you to change the
slope type or band type. There's no way to solo a band. There's no way to
store a state and switch between the current state and another one, to hear
the difference.
All of this reduces my accuracy and/or makes the process very difficult and
slow. Regardless of whether I want to cut something out or just apply a
broad fix.
That's what I am talking about when it comes to EQs.
Thanks for taking the time to talk about what you expect in detail.
Now I think I can understand your disappointment, though I may not be
able to really help you here.
With what's available in open source, one can emulate the filter
architecture you want using a stack of multiple parametric equaliser
filters; they do afford full control control over individual f,Q and
band activity. To solo a band however would most likely take multiple
mouse or keyboard manoevers (or hacking your plugin host application).
As for graphical user interfaces: as a plugin and occasional user
interface developer, I think writing those on my own would be a
colossal waste of everybody's time. Getting a user interface right is
*hard* and things break constantly in a fascinatingly abundant
multitude of unexpected ways. I'd rather concentrate the (very!)
little that I can do on the actual audio algorithms.
Given how little developer power there is in open source, leaving the
user interface to the host applications makes a lot more sense. Of
course they'll be generic and only occasionally attractive, but that's
already better than a half-hearted effort suffering constant breakage
(such as I would certainly produce, if I had to).
I understand you want quick results (who wouldn't?) and not having to
hack and tinker everything together from smaller units, but I'm afraid
that is what open source audio software will most likely continue to
be like, however lofty our goals.
5 Feb
5 Feb
4:49 a.m.
New subject: Linux EQs was - project "droning": 10 years...
On 3/2/21 11:24 pm, Louigi Verona wrote:
EQ is not just the DSP. It's all of it - the DSP
and the UI.
Take, for instance, ZynEq 10. And let's say that it's DSP is perfect.
The reason why I would consider it to be less usable than the EQ
<https://www.image-line.com/fl-studio-learning/fl-studio-online-manual/html/plugins/Fruity%20Parametric%20EQ%202.htm>
I'm using in FL Studio is because ZynEq is really limited: the bands
are fixed, you cannot move them around. The Q setting is global: you
cannot make one band wide and the other narrow. It doesn't allow you
to change the slope type or band type. There's no way to solo a band.
There's no way to store a state and switch between the current state
and another one, to hear the difference.
All of this reduces my accuracy and/or makes the process very
difficult and slow. Regardless of whether I want to cut something out
or just apply a broad fix.
That's what I am talking about when it comes to EQs.
Louigi Verona
https://louigiverona.com/ <https://louigiverona.com/>
I just want to throw in my 2c on this. I never used ZynEQ and didn't
even find it with a quick search. From your description it sounds like a
rather limited and basic EQ. I've had good results with several EQs, namely:
LSP Parametric EQ
x-42 Parametric EQ
Harrison XT-EQ and XT-ME as well as their Character plugins
EQ10Q
ZamDynamicEQ
I use these mainly in Mixbus 32C or Qtractor, and don't recall ever
having a crash with any of them. Note the Harrison ones cost money but
are well worth it and they have regular sales which make them great
value. eg. Mixbus 32C retails for $US349 but I got it for $199. I'm
talking software for Linux, not restricting it to FOSS.
Another consideration is the possibility is running Windows VSTs under
LinVST. My current absolute favourite EQ is the free TDR Nova which
works perfectly under LinVST; four fully parametric bands, built-in RTA,
and it's dynamic function is unequalled by any Linux EQ (Zam one is
closest).
Other notable Win plugins I use with great success under LinVST are Dead
Duck Effects bundle, and I just got Valhalla Supermassive happily
sending mixes to outer space (thanks for the tip, Louigi, I never heard
of Valhalla before).
There are some excellent quality FOSS and commercial plugins for Linux
if one looks around and tries them but also some very mediocre ones and
some absolute rubbish. It's the same situation in other platforms.
The main problem is finding them as there is negligible promotion, and
then sorting the wheat from the chaff. There are some good guides online
but often are not kept current and/or they just list everything
available regardless of quality.
Sorry, more than 2c worth but /rant
Cheers, Roger
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9 comments
6 participants
participants (6)
-
david -
Fons Adriaensen -
Hank Stanglow -
Louigi Verona -
Roger -
Tim Goetze