29 Sep
2002
29 Sep
'02
11:15 p.m.
I hope you'll forgive me if I ask a *really* basic question.
I'm running a mix of Debian stable and testing. Kernel 2.4.18. I have
a Creative Ensoniq AudioPCI sound-card. I'm using the OSS kernel
drivers, but working up to switching to Alsa.
I want to get better audio output---partially just for listening but
also because I'm doing more and more recording. I don't do games. So
for audio reproduction it's mainly a matter of DVD playing (opera and
jazz mostly, some rock). I use Xine for DVD playback; I also use
Ogg123 and Xmms for pure audio.
So my very basic question is: how necessary or how advisable is it to
put an amplifier between the audio output jack and the PC speakers?
Has anyone got a recommendation for a good mid-range or mid-price
amplifier that would make a noticeable difference?
Thanks a lot for your time,
Jim
30 Sep
30 Sep
12:20 a.m.
Jim McCloskey wrote:
I hope you'll forgive me if I ask a *really* basic
question.
I'm running a mix of Debian stable and testing. Kernel 2.4.18. I have
a Creative Ensoniq AudioPCI sound-card. I'm using the OSS kernel
drivers, but working up to switching to Alsa.
I want to get better audio output---partially just for listening but
also because I'm doing more and more recording. I don't do games. So
for audio reproduction it's mainly a matter of DVD playing (opera and
jazz mostly, some rock). I use Xine for DVD playback; I also use
Ogg123 and Xmms for pure audio.
So my very basic question is: how necessary or how advisable is it to
put an amplifier between the audio output jack and the PC speakers?
Has anyone got a recommendation for a good mid-range or mid-price
amplifier that would make a noticeable difference?
Thanks a lot for your time,
Jim
It really depends on your personal taste. If you are satisfied with the
sound coming from your current setup then don't worry about it. But if
you want to sell your music then you should try to get the best studio
amp and speakers you can afford. Again that is a matter of personal
taste. What are the dynamic ranges of the music you are producing? Do
you have a lot of sub frequencies or are you concentrating on treble?....
There are so many options and scope you need to listen to any
amp/speaker setup before you buy to make sure you are happy with the
sound quality.
I have enjoyed listening through NAD amps and my friend swears by Denon.
I have also had a mid range Yamaha setup recomended but haven't listened
to them yet.
Of course you can't go wrong with Bose either. They have a nice
selection at reasonable prices. That's what I'll eventually get (sigh.
one day).
--
Patrick Shirkey - Boost Hardware Ltd.
For the discerning hardware connoisseur
Http://www.boosthardware.com
Http://www.djcj.org - The Linux Audio Users guide
========================================
"Um...symbol_get and symbol_put... They're
kindof like does anyone remember like get_symbol
and put_symbol I think we used to have..."
- Rusty Russell in his talk on the module subsystem
4:40 a.m.
Patrick Shirkey wrote:
Jim McCloskey wrote:
> I hope you'll forgive me if I ask a *really* basic question.
>
> I'm running a mix of Debian stable and testing. Kernel 2.4.18. I have
> a Creative Ensoniq AudioPCI sound-card. I'm using the OSS kernel
> drivers, but working up to switching to Alsa.
this is a very important step :)
> I want to get better audio output---partially
just for listening but
> also because I'm doing more and more recording. I don't do games. So
> for audio reproduction it's mainly a matter of DVD playing (opera and
> jazz mostly, some rock). I use Xine for DVD playback; I also use
> Ogg123 and Xmms for pure audio.
>
> So my very basic question is: how necessary or how advisable is it to
> put an amplifier between the audio output jack and the PC speakers?
> Has anyone got a recommendation for a good mid-range or mid-price
> amplifier that would make a noticeable difference?
i think for opera and jazz you need something better than small passive
computer speakers, since the music has a very wide dynamic range and
needs great fidelity to be enjoyable.
i'd recommend getting either brand computer speakers with a decent amp
built-in, hooking up your computer to your stereo (which might pose hum
problems if they are fed from different power outlets) or going the
whole way and getting a pair of powered studio monitors (but then, this
is in the 1500$ range).
the problem is, while the ensoniq is an amazing card for its price, it's
not really up to high standards. the better your speakers become, the
more you will realize the deficiencies of your card... so if you are not
prepared to fork out more money, studio monitors are "too good for your
card" :)
It really depends on your personal taste. If you are
satisfied with the
sound coming from your current setup then don't worry about it. But if
you want to sell your music then you should try to get the best studio
amp and speakers you can afford. Again that is a matter of personal
taste. What are the dynamic ranges of the music you are producing? Do
you have a lot of sub frequencies or are you concentrating on treble?....
important point. *if* you do mixing and even mastering, you need to hear
all the way down to the sub-bass. my mixes always fell apart when played
back over pa-systems and really good stereos, because my monitors
wouldn't play anything deeper than 100 hz, hiding a lot of garbage from
my ears. :(
Of course you can't go wrong with Bose either.
They have a nice
selection at reasonable prices. That's what I'll eventually get (sigh.
one day).
<imho>
i beg to strongly differ.
the bose sat/sub combinations i heard were gruesome. they sound nice,
but they cheat. good if you want inobtrusive background music (and they
are very small, too). but for *listening*, they don't cut it. those
small sats don't go deep enough, meaning that the sub has to reach so
high that it can be located. very bad for orchestral music, unless you
enjoy the double basses siting under the sofa instead of to the right of
the celli :)
about 10% of the technical riders i get for pa jobs say it more
beautifully than i could: "no behringer, no bose". which i read as
"pretty much anything else" :)
</imho>
best,
jörn
--
Jörn Nettingsmeier
Kurfürstenstr 49, 45138 Essen, Germany
http://spunk.dnsalias.org (my server)
http://www.linuxdj.com/audio/lad/ (Linux Audio Developers)
9:27 a.m.
Joern Nettingsmeier wrote:
<imho>
i beg to strongly differ.
the bose sat/sub combinations i heard were gruesome. they sound nice,
but they cheat. good if you want inobtrusive background music (and they
are very small, too). but for *listening*, they don't cut it. those
small sats don't go deep enough, meaning that the sub has to reach so
high that it can be located. very bad for orchestral music, unless you
enjoy the double basses siting under the sofa instead of to the right of
the celli :)
about 10% of the technical riders i get for pa jobs say it more
beautifully than i could: "no behringer, no bose". which i read as
"pretty much anything else" :)
</imho>
So what is wrong with Behringer then? Do you think they cheat like Bose?
My little mixer is an excellent price performer and has no signal leak
at full volume. I also think it does a very good job of not coloring the
sound when the levels are set at zero.
I have to admit I haven't listened to a nicely setup Bose system for a
while. If what you say is true and not influenced by egotistical
sensitive muso types trying to justify their purchase of or dependency
on [insert other commercially acceptable brandname here] systems, then I
will look into other options. I will anyway but I just wanted to write
that line ;0
Have you ever had the opportunity to listen to a Bose system in a
correctly positioned environment?
Also you may have noticed that a large number of public venues like
bars, restaurants, cinemas, theaters, use Bose systems these days.
Listening to your creation on a multitude of speakers in different
environments definitely helps to gain an understanding of what parts are
working out and what needs tweaking. A Bose system is an effective way
to cover a lot of this ground because they are near universal.
IMO if I need to hear serious, bone crushing, head popping sub then it's
not going to make appartment living easy if I do it at home. I would
prefer to test it out in a club with a real performance system that I
can thrash. If I need to hear it through a proper studio system then I
pay for studio time.
But I don't make jazz or classical so don't spend as much time pondering
that type of soundscape.
--
Patrick Shirkey - Boost Hardware Ltd.
For the discerning hardware connoisseur
Http://www.boosthardware.com
Http://www.djcj.org - The Linux Audio Users guide
========================================
"Um...symbol_get and symbol_put... They're
kindof like does anyone remember like get_symbol
and put_symbol I think we used to have..."
- Rusty Russell in his talk on the module subsystem
11:34 a.m.
my last off-topic post, i promise...
Patrick Shirkey wrote:
So what is wrong with Behringer then? Do you think they cheat like Bose?
My little mixer is an excellent price performer and has no signal leak
at full volume. I also think it does a very good job of not coloring the
sound when the levels are set at zero.
as for price/performance ratio, behringer rocks imho. in fact, i like it
for home use when you can get used to the peculiarities of the
equipment. but behringer outboard stuff tends to be tricky in a live
situation, since for example the compressors easily distort when you
don't watch them closely. it's just not as professional, which is ok
given the price.
I have to admit I haven't listened to a nicely
setup Bose system for a
while. If what you say is true and not influenced by egotistical
sensitive muso types trying to justify their purchase of or dependency
on [insert other commercially acceptable brandname here] systems, then I
will look into other options. I will anyway but I just wanted to write
that line ;0
understandable. it's a nice one. ;)
Have you ever had the opportunity to listen to a Bose
system in a
correctly positioned environment?
i heard bose pa systems build from those strange looking cabinets with
the two holes in front, and those big pipes that are supposed to do the
sub bass. i found them nasty, but that's just my opinion.
of the smaller, home-use bose stuff i know two setups very well, one in
a school where i had an internship for 4 weeks, and one at my uncle's.
both were supposedly set up by shop personnel. both suffered from the
problem i mentioned.
let me emphasize that the bose stuff has its applications imho: for the
size, they perform very well. but there's only so much sound you can get
out of such a little box.
Also you may have noticed that a large number of
public venues like
bars, restaurants, cinemas, theaters, use Bose systems these days.
as i said, ok for looks and subtlety, but imho not the best choice for
foreground music that is actively listened to.
IMO if I need to hear serious, bone crushing, head
popping sub then it's
not going to make appartment living easy if I do it at home.
i was not talking about loud volumes in the bass regions, just that the
frequencies be there down to 30 hz. most equipment will not do this and
compensate for it by boosting around 100-120hz. deadly for your mixes.
ok, i'll shut up now :)
best regards,
jörn
--
Jörn Nettingsmeier
Kurfürstenstr 49, 45138 Essen, Germany
http://spunk.dnsalias.org (my server)
http://www.linuxdj.com/audio/lad/ (Linux Audio Developers)
12:19 p.m.
On Mon, Sep 30, 2002 at 03:32:39PM +0200, Joern Nettingsmeier wrote:
equipment. but behringer outboard stuff tends to be
tricky in a live
situation, since for example the compressors easily distort when you
don't watch them closely. it's just not as professional, which is ok
given the price.
<ot mode="plug">
Given what fmraudio.com will sell you for a measly < $200 US,
there's no longer any excuse for selling a cheap compressor that
doesn't completely kick ass.
</ot>
--
Paul Winkler
"Welcome to Muppet Labs, where the future is made - today!"
12:53 p.m.
Patrick,
The word I got here in the US is that the Behringer mixer faders die
pretty quickly. The aren't matched very well, seem to get noisy, etc.
Other than that folks I know are pretty happy with the new 'Euromixer'
line. YMMV.
Mark
my last off-topic post, i promise...
Patrick Shirkey wrote:
So what is wrong with Behringer then? Do you think they cheat like Bose?
My little mixer is an excellent price performer and has no signal leak
at full volume. I also think it does a very good job of not coloring the
sound when the levels are set at zero.
as for price/performance ratio, behringer rocks imho. in fact, i like it
for home use when you can get used to the peculiarities of the
equipment. but behringer outboard stuff tends to be tricky in a live
situation, since for example the compressors easily distort when you
don't watch them closely. it's just not as professional, which is ok
given the price.
1:47 p.m.
Mark Knecht wrote:
Patrick,
The word I got here in the US is that the Behringer mixer faders die
pretty quickly. The aren't matched very well, seem to get noisy, etc.
Other than that folks I know are pretty happy with the new 'Euromixer'
line. YMMV.
I have one of the babies of the euromixer line (602A) and it does very
well. I wouldn't know about the abilities of the larger desks but as
they use the same components I assume they would at least have the same
sound quality. They have packed a lot of i/o's into such a small space.
I'm waiting for something like this that connects directly to a
usb/firewire port removing the need for a sound card completely.
ie a usb mixing desk with internal ad/da converters. I would be
prepared to pay up to a grand for 6 or more i/os. I imagine a quattro
combined with a eurorack would be the perfect team.
--
Patrick Shirkey - Boost Hardware Ltd.
For the discerning hardware connoisseur
Http://www.boosthardware.com
Http://www.djcj.org - The Linux Audio Users guide
========================================
"Um...symbol_get and symbol_put... They're
kindof like does anyone remember like get_symbol
and put_symbol I think we used to have..."
- Rusty Russell in his talk on the module subsystem
12:56 p.m.
Le Lundi 30 Septembre 2002 03:09, vous avez écrit :
I hope you'll forgive me if I ask a *really* basic
question.
I'm running a mix of Debian stable and testing. Kernel 2.4.18. I have
a Creative Ensoniq AudioPCI sound-card. I'm using the OSS kernel
drivers, but working up to switching to Alsa.
I want to get better audio output---partially just for listening but
also because I'm doing more and more recording. I don't do games. So
for audio reproduction it's mainly a matter of DVD playing (opera and
jazz mostly, some rock). I use Xine for DVD playback; I also use
Ogg123 and Xmms for pure audio.
So my very basic question is: how necessary or how advisable is it to
put an amplifier between the audio output jack and the PC speakers?
Has anyone got a recommendation for a good mid-range or mid-price
amplifier that would make a noticeable difference?
"PC speakers" doesn't mean anything to me.
There are so much things called like that. I know there are some very good
amplified speakers for the PC market, like the Digital Sirocco Spirit from
Videologic. There is a good review in the british magazin "Sounds on Sounds"
(SOS), read it on their web site with the search engine. The same manufactor
sells also a 5.1 system quite good too (and with a review in SOS too ;) but
more expensive.
For theses speakers as you guess you don't need any amplifier because it's
integrated.
That's a way to avoid the question.
On the other hand if you want to make recordings you need "neutral speakers".
This category of speakers is more often found in the "monitoring speakers"
avenue. "PC speakers" are probably never concerned by this appelation.
But the Sirroco spirit above probably are the closiest.
"Monitoring speakers" are either active (integrated amplifier) or passive.
They are made magnetic shielded to avoid the interferences coming from the
computer screen. They are designed to be neutral.
The passive Tannoy Reaveal cost 350 Euros and are ok.
If you add a decent mid-range amplifiers to crap passive speakers (PC
speakers or not), it will not change, as you guess, the quality of the
speakers and it will be only a very little change in your sound.
Where you need to put your money is in the speakers, assuming that you have a
decent amplifier. A decent amplifier can be a modest hifi model, but it would
be better to avoid hidi completly since hifi is for pleasure, therefore it
happens that spectral behaviours of amp and speaker are not neutral to make
the sounds more impressive.
As it exists "monitoring speakers", you have "monitoring amplifers"
like
InterM, Samson, Alesis make (and others). For 200Euros you can find a Samson
Servo 150 or Servo 170 which is at least 2*75 Watt at 8ohm.
I don't have any opinion on their real quality about them but i think that it
is better than an hifi amp which will cost, anyway, the same.
You will find a lot of "active monitoring speakers" too, which sometimes are
the amplified version of the equivalant passive montoring speakers.
They are nice and sometime pretty small, but good ones are not cheap.
Almost 1000Euros for a pair of KRK V4.
The most important is to listen several speakers before buying to be sure to
know what is the best for you.
Linium
7879
days inactive
7880
days old
linux-audio-user@lists.linuxaudio.org
8 comments
6 participants
participants (6)
-
Jim McCloskey -
Joern Nettingsmeier -
Linium -
Mark Knecht -
Patrick Shirkey -
Paul Winkler