3 Oct
2017
3 Oct
'17
8:04 p.m.
Hello
I have a quick question. I have an old MOTU Ultralite that works well
with a thinkpad, which has a firewire I/O. Current Thinkpads don't have
firewire, but some have thunderbolt. My old soundcard would work on a
new thinkpad with an adapter, like it does with other OS's?
Thanks!
Bernardo
3 Oct
3 Oct
9:54 p.m.
Bernardo Barros <bernardo.barros(a)nyu.edu> writes:
Hello
I have a quick question. I have an old MOTU Ultralite that works well
with a thinkpad, which has a firewire I/O. Current Thinkpads don't
have firewire, but some have thunderbolt. My old soundcard would work
on a new thinkpad with an adapter, like it does with other OS's?
Would a Firewire Expresscard be an option? That's what I currently use
on a T61. The Expresscard I currently use has a "TI chipset" and won't
work properly unless I boot with it (after doing that, you can usually
disconnect it and reconnect while the laptop is suspended: hotplugging
tends not to work). This tends to work a bit more reliably
(disregarding the hotplugging puzzle) than the built-in Ricoh Firewire
interface.
When you don't have a card yet, I think it likely makes sense going for
one supporting 800Mbps. Not because there would be any use for that
speed with most soundcards, but because it will more likely land you
with a more modern chipset making less trouble in the PCIe department.
Also the issue date will be closer to the age of the "new Firewire
stack".
Do modern laptops still have Expresscard slots?
--
David Kastrup
10:49 p.m.
On October 3, 2017 11:50:07 AM HST, David Kastrup <dak(a)gnu.org> wrote:
Bernardo Barros <bernardo.barros(a)nyu.edu>
writes:
I don't think so. My 2-year-old laptop only offers USB ports and an SD card slot.
I understand that SD cards can be other things than storage - I think there are SD wifi
cards, for example.
I wonder - could an adaptor connect a Firewire device to USB-C or Thunderbolt port?
--
David W. Jones
gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
http://dancingtreefrog.com
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail.
Hello
I have a quick question. I have an old MOTU Ultralite that works well
with a thinkpad, which has a firewire I/O. Current Thinkpads don't
have firewire, but some have thunderbolt. My old soundcard would work
on a new thinkpad with an adapter, like it does with other OS's?
Would a Firewire Expresscard be an option? That's what I currently use
on a T61. The Expresscard I currently use has a "TI chipset" and won't
work properly unless I boot with it (after doing that, you can usually
disconnect it and reconnect while the laptop is suspended: hotplugging
tends not to work). This tends to work a bit more reliably
(disregarding the hotplugging puzzle) than the built-in Ricoh Firewire
interface.
When you don't have a card yet, I think it likely makes sense going for
one supporting 800Mbps. Not because there would be any use for that
speed with most soundcards, but because it will more likely land you
with a more modern chipset making less trouble in the PCIe department.
Also the issue date will be closer to the age of the "new Firewire
stack".
Do modern laptops still have Expresscard slots? 
11:20 p.m.
On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 5:49 PM, David W. Jones <gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
On October 3, 2017 11:50:07 AM HST, David Kastrup <dak(a)gnu.org> wrote:
The SD WiFi cards are a more exotic beast altogether than a peripheral
device. They are ~70MHz Linux computers all on their own:
https://hackaday.com/2016/06/30/transcend-wifi-sd-card-is-a-tiny-linux-serv…
Bernardo Barros <bernardo.barros(a)nyu.edu>
writes:
Do modern laptops still have Expresscard slots?
I don't think so. My 2-year-old laptop only offers USB ports and an SD card slot.
I understand that SD cards can be other things than storage - I think there are SD wifi
cards, for example.
4 Oct
4 Oct
12:43 a.m.
On October 3, 2017 1:20:45 PM HST, Charles Z Henry <czhenry(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 5:49 PM, David W. Jones
<gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com>
wrote:
SD card
slot.
Ah, thanks! Fascinating!
So how about a similar tiny linux computer that serves Firewire data & commands
between the Firewire device and the SD port?
--
David W. Jones
gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
http://dancingtreefrog.com
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail.
On October 3, 2017 11:50:07 AM HST, David Kastrup <dak(a)gnu.org>
wrote:
Bernardo
Barros <bernardo.barros(a)nyu.edu> writes:
Do modern laptops still have Expresscard slots?
I don't think so. My 2-year-old laptop only offers USB ports and an
I understand that SD cards can be other things than storage - I think
there are SD
wifi cards, for example.
The SD WiFi cards are a more exotic beast altogether than a peripheral
device. They are ~70MHz Linux computers all on their own:
https://hackaday.com/2016/06/30/transcend-wifi-sd-card-is-a-tiny-linux-serv… 
3 Oct
3 Oct
11:52 p.m.
as a clarification, perhaps: thunderbolt, in essence, is just a way to
"export" the PCI(x) bus to outside the chassis, with safe hot-plugging.
connecting via thunderbolt is semantically and functionally almost
precisely equivalent to plugging into the backplace of the motherboard.
On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 6:49 PM, David W. Jones <gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
On October 3, 2017 11:50:07 AM HST, David Kastrup <dak(a)gnu.org> wrote:
Bernardo Barros <bernardo.barros(a)nyu.edu>
writes:
I don't think so. My 2-year-old laptop only offers USB ports and an SD
card slot.
I understand that SD cards can be other things than storage - I think
there are SD wifi cards, for example.
I wonder - could an adaptor connect a Firewire device to USB-C or
Thunderbolt port?
--
David W. Jones
gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
http://dancingtreefrog.com
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail.
_______________________________________________
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Linux-audio-user(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-user
Hello
I have a quick question. I have an old MOTU Ultralite that works well
with a thinkpad, which has a firewire I/O. Current Thinkpads don't
have firewire, but some have thunderbolt. My old soundcard would work
on a new thinkpad with an adapter, like it does with other OS's?
Would a Firewire Expresscard be an option? That's what I currently use
on a T61. The Expresscard I currently use has a "TI chipset" and won't
work properly unless I boot with it (after doing that, you can usually
disconnect it and reconnect while the laptop is suspended: hotplugging
tends not to work). This tends to work a bit more reliably
(disregarding the hotplugging puzzle) than the built-in Ricoh Firewire
interface.
When you don't have a card yet, I think it likely makes sense going for
one supporting 800Mbps. Not because there would be any use for that
speed with most soundcards, but because it will more likely land you
with a more modern chipset making less trouble in the PCIe department.
Also the issue date will be closer to the age of the "new Firewire
stack".
Do modern laptops still have Expresscard slots?
4 Oct
4 Oct
6:43 a.m.
Paul Davis <paul-dDzkXPnfpdxaomM2pvQuqZqQE7yCjDx5(a)public.gmane.org>
writes:
as a clarification, perhaps: thunderbolt, in essence,
is just a way to
"export" the PCI(x) bus to outside the chassis, with safe
hot-plugging.
Firewire Expresscards are basically using one PCIx lane: there are PCIx
cards for desktop computers accepting Expresscards that basically just
put the wires through (and aren't good at hotplugging). They may or may
not also have a USB receptable in order to provide a USB port to the
Expresscard (Expresscards can choose whether to talk via PCIx or USB:
WWAN cards and most card readers use USB, Firewire adapters generally
use PCIx).
So if your statement is correct, I'd speculate on a
"thunderbolt-to-Expresscard" adapter also being just wiring and
consequently not requiring additional driver support. If that were the
case, this could be a way to use an existing Expresscard Firewire
adapter (and thus drivers with some expectation of working) with a
modern laptop.
--
David Kastrup
5:26 p.m.
On 10/3/17 19:52, Paul Davis wrote:
as a clarification, perhaps: thunderbolt, in essence,
is just a way to
"export" the PCI(x) bus to outside the chassis, with safe hot-plugging.
connecting via thunderbolt is semantically and functionally almost
precisely equivalent to plugging into the backplace of the motherboard.
So it "should work" but maybe not?
6 Oct
6 Oct
6:05 p.m.
On 10/3/17 17:50, David Kastrup wrote:
Do modern laptops still have Expresscard slots?
So it works for you? I will verify if thinkpads still have expresscard.
I was by a System76 employee that although their models have
expresscard, it won't work just like a firewire IO
8:24 p.m.
Bernardo Barros <bernardo.barros-RWB/UN2hA5c(a)public.gmane.org> writes:
On 10/3/17 17:50, David Kastrup wrote:
I have one Expresscard with IT chipset
05:00.0 PCI bridge: Texas Instruments XIO2000(A)/XIO2200A PCI Express-to-PCI Bridge (rev
03)
06:00.0 FireWire (IEEE 1394): Texas Instruments XIO2200A IEEE-1394a-2000 Controller
(PHY/Link) (rev 01)
that works for me _if_ I boot with the card (there are some ways of
removing and reinserting it that will also keep it working, but you have
to have booted with it first, and reinsertion while the laptop is live
rather than asleep in some manner won't do either).
That's usually the one advertised as "with TI chipset". Some reports of
Linux/Firewire users/developers decry the internal PCIx/PCI bridge as
slow and buggy and I suspect it to be responsible for the hotplugging
problems, but when booting with it, this has been the most reliable
Firewire interface for me yet (only tested 400Mbps ones, including the
Ricoh built into the T61 laptop).
I have one that is proper PCIe without bridge. Let me check:
05:00.0 FireWire (IEEE 1394): VIA Technologies, Inc. VT6315 Series Firewire Controller
This one has smaller buffers and will crash/hang sometimes.
I also have some Cardbus card (some NEC chip) which will not enter
synchronous connections (astonishingly, it will work with an Apple
iSight camera but not with audio cards). Basically, Cardbus was no
longer of interest when the "new Firewire stack" was created, and the
old one is no longer available. So don't weep after Cardbus cards. Not
that you likely can, anyway.
Do modern laptops still have Expresscard slots?
So it works for you? I will verify if thinkpads still have expresscard. I
was by a System76
employee that although their models have expresscard, it won't work
just like a firewire IO
The Expresscards are OEMed to silliness. My good one (Delock, TI
XIO2200A) has a sequence of equal-length ridges across it. The
problematic one (MS-Tech, Via VT6315) has a sequence of increasing size
ellipse indentations across it. Either are 34mm Expresscards, have a
connector for 12V at the side and two 6-pin IEEE1394a connectors at the
front.
You'll probably find a slew of other providers for the same cards,
differing only in the product labels glued on. It's stupid to go by
plastic ridges, but probably more reliable than the product name unless
a particular chipset is documented.
--
David Kastrup
7 Oct
7 Oct
1:20 a.m.
On October 6, 2017 10:24:33 AM HST, David Kastrup <dak(a)gnu.org> wrote:
Bernardo Barros
<bernardo.barros-RWB/UN2hA5c(a)public.gmane.org> writes:
I have a System76 laptop. There's no Expresscard port on it.
--
David W. Jones
gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
http://dancingtreefrog.com
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail.
On 10/3/17 17:50, David Kastrup wrote:
I have one Expresscard with IT chipset
05:00.0 PCI bridge: Texas Instruments XIO2000(A)/XIO2200A PCI
Express-to-PCI Bridge (rev 03)
06:00.0 FireWire (IEEE 1394): Texas Instruments XIO2200A
IEEE-1394a-2000 Controller (PHY/Link) (rev 01)
that works for me _if_ I boot with the card (there are some ways of
removing and reinserting it that will also keep it working, but you
have
to have booted with it first, and reinsertion while the laptop is live
rather than asleep in some manner won't do either).
That's usually the one advertised as "with TI chipset". Some reports
of
Linux/Firewire users/developers decry the internal PCIx/PCI bridge as
slow and buggy and I suspect it to be responsible for the hotplugging
problems, but when booting with it, this has been the most reliable
Firewire interface for me yet (only tested 400Mbps ones, including the
Ricoh built into the T61 laptop).
I have one that is proper PCIe without bridge. Let me check:
05:00.0 FireWire (IEEE 1394): VIA Technologies, Inc. VT6315 Series
Firewire Controller
This one has smaller buffers and will crash/hang sometimes.
I also have some Cardbus card (some NEC chip) which will not enter
synchronous connections (astonishingly, it will work with an Apple
iSight camera but not with audio cards). Basically, Cardbus was no
longer of interest when the "new Firewire stack" was created, and the
old one is no longer available. So don't weep after Cardbus cards.
Not
that you likely can, anyway.
Do modern laptops still have Expresscard slots?
So it works for you? I will verify if thinkpads still have
expresscard. I was by a
System76
employee that although their models have
expresscard, it won't work
just like a firewire IO
The Expresscards are OEMed to silliness. My good one (Delock, TI
XIO2200A) has a sequence of equal-length ridges across it. The
problematic one (MS-Tech, Via VT6315) has a sequence of increasing
size
ellipse indentations across it. Either are 34mm Expresscards, have a
connector for 12V at the side and two 6-pin IEEE1394a connectors at
the
front.
You'll probably find a slew of other providers for the same cards,
differing only in the product labels glued on. It's stupid to go by
plastic ridges, but probably more reliable than the product name
unless
a particular chipset is documented.
9:06 a.m.
"David W. Jones" <gnome-4S9g3957RhF54TAoqtyWWQ(a)public.gmane.org> writes:
I have a System76 laptop. There's no Expresscard
port on it.
On their current baseline "Lemur" model I see
Expansion: USB 3.1 Type-C, USB 3.0 Type-A, USB 2.0 Type-A, SD Card Reader
That's sort-of "ugh" for connecting Firewire devices. Concerning the
bandwidth, I think you'd need USB 3 (USB 2.0 nominally has 480mbps over
Firewire's 400mbps but reserves less for synchronous transfers and there
are other problems IIRC).
I don't know about reliable adapters, but I haven't looked.
--
David Kastrup
9 Oct
9 Oct
4:05 a.m.
On 10/06/2017 11:06 PM, David Kastrup wrote:
"David W. Jones"
<gnome-4S9g3957RhF54TAoqtyWWQ(a)public.gmane.org> writes:
I have a Gazelle Pro 9 (Gaze09 model), vs the current gaze12 model.
Expansion
2× USB 3.0 Type-A, 1× USB 3.0 Type-C, 1× USB 2.0 Type-A, SD Card Reader
I have a System76 laptop. There's no
Expresscard port on it.
On their current baseline "Lemur" model I see
Expansion: USB 3.1 Type-C, USB 3.0 Type-A, USB 2.0 Type-A, SD Card Reader
That's sort-of "ugh" for connecting Firewire devices. Concerning the
bandwidth, I think you'd need USB 3 (USB 2.0 nominally has 480mbps over
Firewire's 400mbps but reserves less for synchronous transfers and there
are other problems IIRC). I don't know about reliable adapters, but I
haven't looked.
I've got to try some. The only other option I would have would be to use
it on one of my desktop systems, which aren't exactly very portable!
--
David W. Jones
gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
http://dancingtreefrog.com
4:52 a.m.
On 10/08/2017 06:05 PM, david wrote:
On 10/06/2017 11:06 PM, David Kastrup wrote:
I've been poking around on Amazon. The consensus of reviewers seems to
that USB-C to Firewire adapters don't work and simply cannot work.
Including a review by an electrical engineer.
I found this USB<>ExpressCard adaptor:
https://www.amazon.com/SIIG-USB-to-ExpressCard-JU-EP0012-S1/dp/B001KUOW9O/r…
IIRC, the original poster had a Firewire ExpressCard and was looking for
a laptop with an ExpressCard port. Maybe this would work for them?
--
David W. Jones
gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
http://dancingtreefrog.com
"David W. Jones"
<gnome-4S9g3957RhF54TAoqtyWWQ(a)public.gmane.org> writes:
I have a System76 laptop. There's no
Expresscard port on it.
On their current baseline "Lemur" model I see
Expansion: USB 3.1 Type-C, USB 3.0 Type-A, USB 2.0 Type-A, SD Card Reader
That's sort-of "ugh" for connecting Firewire devices. Concerning the
bandwidth, I think you'd need USB 3 (USB 2.0 nominally has 480mbps over
Firewire's 400mbps but reserves less for synchronous transfers and there
are other problems IIRC). I don't know about reliable adapters, but I
haven't looked.
I've got to try some. The only other option I would have would be to use
it on one of my desktop systems, which aren't exactly very portable!
7:32 a.m.
david <gnome-4S9g3957RhF54TAoqtyWWQ(a)public.gmane.org> writes:
On 10/08/2017 06:05 PM, david wrote:
Don't bother. "Add support for USB-based ExpressCard devices to any USB
equipped computer" is actually a lot more explicit than many of those
cards bother telling, and it means that they work fine for WWAN cards
(UMTS Modem and such), Smartcard readers and reasonably cheap (all but
the fastest) flash device reader cards. An Expresscard slot provides
both a PCIx lane and a USB connection. This adapter will only provide
the USB connection. That's not sufficient for a Firewire adapter.
On 10/06/2017 11:06 PM, David Kastrup wrote:
I've been poking around on Amazon. The consensus of reviewers seems to
that USB-C to Firewire adapters don't work and simply cannot
work. Including a review by an electrical engineer.
I found this USB<>ExpressCard adaptor:
https://www.amazon.com/SIIG-USB-to-ExpressCard-JU-EP0012-S1/dp/B001KUOW9O/r…
"David W. Jones"
<gnome-4S9g3957RhF54TAoqtyWWQ(a)public.gmane.org> writes:
I have a System76 laptop. There's no
Expresscard port on it.
On their current baseline "Lemur" model I see
Expansion: USB 3.1 Type-C, USB 3.0 Type-A, USB 2.0 Type-A, SD Card Reader
That's sort-of "ugh" for connecting Firewire devices. Concerning the
bandwidth, I think you'd need USB 3 (USB 2.0 nominally has 480mbps over
Firewire's 400mbps but reserves less for synchronous transfers and there
are other problems IIRC). I don't know about reliable adapters, but I
haven't looked.
I've got to try some. The only other option I would have would be to
use it on one of my desktop systems, which aren't exactly very
portable! IIRC, the original poster had a Firewire ExpressCard
and was looking
for a laptop with an ExpressCard port. Maybe this would work for them?
Nope.
--
David Kastrup
10 Oct
10 Oct
7:29 a.m.
On 10/08/2017 09:31 PM, David Kastrup wrote:
david
<gnome-4S9g3957RhF54TAoqtyWWQ(a)public.gmane.org> writes:
Bummer. Guess I'll have to go through my accumulated emails for
recommendations for a PCIx Firewire card for the desktop machine.
--
David W. Jones
gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
http://dancingtreefrog.com
I've been poking around on Amazon. The
consensus of reviewers seems to
that USB-C to Firewire adapters don't work and simply cannot
work. Including a review by an electrical engineer.
I found this USB<>ExpressCard adaptor:
https://www.amazon.com/SIIG-USB-to-ExpressCard-JU-EP0012-S1/dp/B001KUOW9O/r…
Don't bother. "Add support for USB-based ExpressCard devices to any USB
equipped computer" is actually a lot more explicit than many of those
cards bother telling, and it means that they work fine for WWAN cards
(UMTS Modem and such), Smartcard readers and reasonably cheap (all but
the fastest) flash device reader cards. An Expresscard slot provides
both a PCIx lane and a USB connection. This adapter will only provide
the USB connection. That's not sufficient for a Firewire adapter.
IIRC, the original poster had a Firewire
ExpressCard and was looking
for a laptop with an ExpressCard port. Maybe this would work for them?
Nope.
8:20 a.m.
david <gnome-4S9g3957RhF54TAoqtyWWQ(a)public.gmane.org> writes:
On 10/08/2017 09:31 PM, David Kastrup wrote:
For desktop computers, there are also PCIx adapters for Expresscard
which by default only provide the PCIx lane (they have an internal USB
plug on board where you can connect a spare USB line from your mainboard
to make the Expresscard slot work for USB-based Expresscards as well).
They are comparatively cheap as they don't contain significant active
components (or they'd at least bother with a USB connection) and since
they are pass-through, they don't do hotplugging (on the PCIx lane).
The advantage, of course, being that if you have an Expresscard that you
trust with regard to its driver situation and so on, it will work in
your desktop computer as before.
If you are not particularly hot for an Expresscard solution, cheap
Firewire adapters for desktop PCIx are probably worth a try (I think
they were around $10 or less last time I looked).
--
David Kastrup
david
<gnome-4S9g3957RhF54TAoqtyWWQ-XMD5yJDbdMReXY1tMh2IBg(a)public.gmane.org>
writes:
Bummer. Guess I'll have to go through my accumulated emails for
recommendations for a PCIx Firewire card for the desktop machine. I've been poking around on Amazon. The
consensus of reviewers seems to
that USB-C to Firewire adapters don't work and simply cannot
work. Including a review by an electrical engineer.
I found this USB<>ExpressCard adaptor:
https://www.amazon.com/SIIG-USB-to-ExpressCard-JU-EP0012-S1/dp/B001KUOW9O/r…
Don't bother. "Add support for USB-based ExpressCard devices to any USB
equipped computer" is actually a lot more explicit than many of those
cards bother telling, and it means that they work fine for WWAN cards
(UMTS Modem and such), Smartcard readers and reasonably cheap (all but
the fastest) flash device reader cards. An Expresscard slot provides
both a PCIx lane and a USB connection. This adapter will only provide
the USB connection. That's not sufficient for a Firewire adapter.
IIRC, the original poster had a Firewire
ExpressCard and was looking
for a laptop with an ExpressCard port. Maybe this would work for them?
Nope.
12 Oct
12 Oct
1:14 p.m.
Bernardo Barros <bernardo.barros-RWB/UN2hA5c(a)public.gmane.org> writes:
Hello
I have a quick question. I have an old MOTU Ultralite that works well
with a thinkpad, which has a firewire I/O. Current Thinkpads don't
have firewire, but some have thunderbolt. My old soundcard would work
on a new thinkpad with an adapter, like it does with other OS's?
Coming back to the original question: Apple offers reasonably affordable
Thunderbolt-to-Firewire adapters (Firewire 800, one connection, about
$30). I have no idea how the driver situation for a Thinkpad (or even a
Mac) would look under Linux. "Requires OS x v 10.7.4 or later" does not
exactly sound like a long-supported standard chip.
--
David Kastrup
17 Oct
17 Oct
1:45 p.m.
I believe the Apple Thuderbolt-to-Firewire is built with an TI chip and
will work out of the box under Linux
There are people running Apple adapter successfully under Linux
Check this thread..
https://sourceforge.net/p/ffado/mailman/ffado-user/thread/20160517022618.GJ…
Where someone says:
"
I am also using an Apple Thunderbolt-Firewire adapter without any problems.
This is using Arch Linux on a Lenovo T430s which also has an ExpressCard
slot - I've tried using the ExpressCard-Firewire adapter I used with my
previous laptop but the Thunderbolt adapter seems more stable (not sure
whether because of Firewire chip or other reasons).
"
2017-10-12 15:14 GMT+02:00 David Kastrup <dak(a)gnu.org>rg>:
Bernardo Barros
<bernardo.barros-RWB/UN2hA5c(a)public.gmane.org> writes:
Hello
I have a quick question. I have an old MOTU Ultralite that works well
with a thinkpad, which has a firewire I/O. Current Thinkpads don't
have firewire, but some have thunderbolt. My old soundcard would work
on a new thinkpad with an adapter, like it does with other OS's?
Coming back to the original question: Apple offers reasonably affordable
Thunderbolt-to-Firewire adapters (Firewire 800, one connection, about
$30). I have no idea how the driver situation for a Thinkpad (or even a
Mac) would look under Linux. "Requires OS x v 10.7.4 or later" does not
exactly sound like a long-supported standard chip.
--
David Kastrup
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18 comments
7 participants
participants (7)
-
Anders Hellquist -
Bernardo Barros -
Charles Z Henry -
david -
David Kastrup -
David W. Jones
-
Paul Davis