Bill Allen wrote: Hi Bill: You also have to remember that you don't hear yourself the way others hear you. I'm not especially fond of my voice, but I know how to hit the right notes and other people seem to like it. The *sound* of a voice can be effective enough as a carrier of personality. Bob Dylan is often used as an example of a not-so-beautiful voice that's perfectly suited to his material. And it's worth mentioning that Dylan does know how to sing (check out Girl From The North Country).

As you say, there are many to choose from. I like Tim Goetze's Versatile Plate Reverb, it's easy to control and has some sweet spots that complement my voice nicely. I also often use the SC4 compressor (pre-fade) and the TAP Scaling Limiter (post-fade) on the master track. As general advice: Pick an effect, preferably one with only a few controls, and learn what each control does to the sound. In the case of reverbs, think about the ambience you want to create and make your initial settings accordingly. Yes, you'll have to experiment, but IMO that's the best way to learn about these things. It's easy to be overwhelmed: LADSPA, DSSI, VST/VSTi, all provide that embarassment of riches. But I figure that the pros don't have the time to learn everything about everything, so I don't expect it from myself. I think you should plan carefully: think about what sort of sound you want to project, think about its characteristics, then start working towards it with a minimum number of effects. A little 'verb and some judicious compression go a long way towards making a good basic sound, I find that for my purposes I use little else. Maybe someday I'll find a use for chorus and delays, but they'll probably get used on instruments, not on my voice. A few random tips: Stand when you sing. Use a pop filter (I should follow my own advice). Breathe deeply, you can always erase the noise. Don't raise your chin when you try to reach notes on the high end of your range, it tightens the vocal mechanism and works against your attempt. Relax, you won't sing (or play) well with excess tension. Consider your input chain, i.e., decent microphones, preamp if necessary, good hot signal, etc. Don't record with effects in, you'll fool yourself and it will be harder to fix (I like that Ardour forces that behaviour). Key your music to complement your available range. WRT planning: Do you want to recreate the sound of a small group playing in a bar ? Or a big band performing in a concert hall ? A rock band playing an auditorium ? A jazz quartet in your living room ? Each of these scenarios has some salient characteristics that you should try to describe and understand in relation to your selected effects. Try analyzing the vocal sound on some of your favorite recordings in the same manner. Yes, you have to study up on some terminology, but you don't have to become a DSP engineer. That's what we have Steve Harris here for anyway. ;-) And don't worry about understanding everything right away. It's enough to know what a compressor does, the rest you'll learn by fiddling with settings and *listening* to the results. For instance, I use the SC4 compressor but I'm still sort of blank about exactly what the knee radius does. Always more to learn. :) GVerb is more complex than I'd advise for a start, but it is a fine effect and definitely worth learning. Have you tried Freeverb or any of the other 'verbs from the LADSPA collection ? The TAP reverb is also superfine (with presets!), but again I'd suggest something even simpler. If you really have problems with intonation and pitch acuity you can always try fixing it in the mix with a pitch shifter plugin and Ardour's automation control, but that's getting elaborate. You can also try that infamous vocal "fixer" from Antares, but I don't know if it will run under any of the current support systems for VST under Linux. It costs $$ though, and frankly at that point I'd suggest singing lessons. You can also use Ardour's excellent editing tools to correct small (and not so small?) errors in timing. A bit tedious, but worth the effort. I listen a lot to the music made by other members of this list. I love the sound of Pete Bessman's F4, I'd like to know how he got it. I'm also fond of The Girls, their material is great and their singing is perfect for it. I like the overall sound they achieve, though it's quite different from my aims. And I'd commit heinous and unconscionable acts just to be able to play and sound like Steve Doonan. Lots to be learned from the folks using the same software (more or less). So many different genres are represented at http://lam.fugal.net, it's a terrific resource: if you like a particular piece, you can just write to the composer and ask how s/he did it. Well, there's my contribution to the thread. HTH. :) Best, dp

Burkhard Woelfel wrote: Strange, this is exactly what happened to me when I sang on my two tracks, thing is, it doesnt sound like me to me!! Bob

> - - Burkhard > >>>What combination of plugins and settings do you use to get the best >>>sound from vocals particularly in Ardour? >> >>As you say, there are many to choose from. I like Tim Goetze's Versatile >>Plate Reverb, it's easy to control and has some sweet spots that >>complement my voice nicely. I also often use the SC4 compressor >>(pre-fade) and the TAP Scaling Limiter (post-fade) on the master track. >> >>As general advice: Pick an effect, preferably one with only a few >>controls, and learn what each control does to the sound. In the case of >>reverbs, think about the ambience you want to create and make your >>initial settings accordingly. Yes, you'll have to experiment, but IMO >>that's the best way to learn about these things. >> >>>I know that this is one of those subjective questions for which the >>>best answer is try it out yourself and find what sounds best, but >>>there are so many plugins (an embarassment of riches), each of which >>>has many settings, that a brute force search of all the combinations >>>would take forever - not to mention that after a while, my poor ears >>>become exhausted with the effort and refuse to hear differences >>>anymore. So what I'm really looking for is good starting points to >>>work from. >> >>It's easy to be overwhelmed: LADSPA, DSSI, VST/VSTi, all provide that >>embarassment of riches. But I figure that the pros don't have the time >>to learn everything about everything, so I don't expect it from myself. >>I think you should plan carefully: think about what sort of sound you >>want to project, think about its characteristics, then start working >>towards it with a minimum number of effects. A little 'verb and some >>judicious compression go a long way towards making a good basic sound, I >>find that for my purposes I use little else. Maybe someday I'll find a >>use for chorus and delays, but they'll probably get used on instruments, >>not on my voice. >> >>A few random tips: Stand when you sing. Use a pop filter (I should >>follow my own advice). Breathe deeply, you can always erase the noise. >>Don't raise your chin when you try to reach notes on the high end of >>your range, it tightens the vocal mechanism and works against your >>attempt. Relax, you won't sing (or play) well with excess tension. >>Consider your input chain, i.e., decent microphones, preamp if >>necessary, good hot signal, etc. Don't record with effects in, you'll >>fool yourself and it will be harder to fix (I like that Ardour forces >>that behaviour). Key your music to complement your available range. >> >>WRT planning: Do you want to recreate the sound of a small group playing >>in a bar ? Or a big band performing in a concert hall ? A rock band >>playing an auditorium ? A jazz quartet in your living room ? Each of >>these scenarios has some salient characteristics that you should try to >>describe and understand in relation to your selected effects. Try >>analyzing the vocal sound on some of your favorite recordings in the >>same manner. >> >>Yes, you have to study up on some terminology, but you don't have to >>become a DSP engineer. That's what we have Steve Harris here for anyway. >>;-) And don't worry about understanding everything right away. It's >>enough to know what a compressor does, the rest you'll learn by fiddling >>with settings and *listening* to the results. For instance, I use the >>SC4 compressor but I'm still sort of blank about exactly what the knee >>radius does. Always more to learn. :) >> >>>One combination that I like is GVerb to get depth and L/C/R Delay to >>>get width. Even with those two getting the settings right takes time. >>>For comunication, I've included a jack rack with some settings I've >>>found that work OK. I would love your critiques and suggestions for >>>other setups. >> >>GVerb is more complex than I'd advise for a start, but it is a fine >>effect and definitely worth learning. Have you tried Freeverb or any of >>the other 'verbs from the LADSPA collection ? The TAP reverb is also >>superfine (with presets!), but again I'd suggest something even simpler. >> >>If you really have problems with intonation and pitch acuity you can >>always try fixing it in the mix with a pitch shifter plugin and Ardour's >>automation control, but that's getting elaborate. You can also try that >>infamous vocal "fixer" from Antares, but I don't know if it will run >>under any of the current support systems for VST under Linux. It costs >>$$ though, and frankly at that point I'd suggest singing lessons. >> >>You can also use Ardour's excellent editing tools to correct small (and >>not so small?) errors in timing. A bit tedious, but worth the effort. >> >>I listen a lot to the music made by other members of this list. I love >>the sound of Pete Bessman's F4, I'd like to know how he got it. I'm also >>fond of The Girls, their material is great and their singing is perfect >>for it. I like the overall sound they achieve, though it's quite >>different from my aims. And I'd commit heinous and unconscionable acts >>just to be able to play and sound like Steve Doonan. Lots to be learned >>from the folks using the same software (more or less). So many different >>genres are represented at http://lam.fugal.net, it's a terrific >>resource: if you like a particular piece, you can just write to the >>composer and ask how s/he did it. >> >>Well, there's my contribution to the thread. HTH. :) >> >>Best, >> >>dp > > - -- > > > Libre Audio, Libre Video, Libre Software: www.AGNULA.org > Get DeMuDi, the GNU/Linux distribution for multimedia creation > Download and information: http://demudi.agnula.org/ > > Public key available here: > <http://blackhole.pca.dfn.de:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xFD82303B> > key FP 0A65 5E83 F44F 47A5 3DFC 19C5 7779 E411 FD82 303B > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) > > iQEVAwUBQ5g5VGA1EUeMSxn+AQLOBggAiRaP7+pA+taWP0XXA7hywg+Y0h3HX2Ci > sfZNnXo+Hv/HdDG0Ms3Z9IDHiUHwPsWxB2IJQz77Jtfsjk1MuJlmANdFGaGDXHfy > J7m3clM15VFTGiZhR6CwPh82AaviodIg5+hZdBzs9Rb5Wuyjo3KnAnUYCrfhlu6s > xK9fBTyjXMX5jls2gEK5OVD4ImAebiVdyxocSll3VpHmLs7zmAzja44jJYX6eon2 > 5IRUi1fRGCXiLUCDBFSRW2jPw4XzOkbz0n4eLZ7ha4xl6dhf1C7+zc7U6Rkv91j4 > YmiAae7Q8HhSExJJxA7a9ygDTt6EMCw8znCnSl1gTK2kHc4Zars+nQ== > =DfoE > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

This is an interesting comment. I find the same when I record speech onto, for instance a cassette recorder. I have an accent coming from the Channel Islands, but don't notice it when I speak. But playing back my recorded voice is very evident. It may have something to do with the very positive feedback you get to the brain when you speak or sing, whether your monitoring your singing/speech with or without headphones. Whereas, when you listen to yourself after making a recording, your brain is not receiving positive feedback from your voice. Your brain through your ears is sort of hearing these sounds for the first time, from another location, and also some delay involved between the recording and the playback. Of course the other quite strange behaviour is, when you are listening to music through the headphones and speak to someone at the same time, you actually speak louder without realising it, indicating again that the brain, by virtue of positive feedback from your voice is controlling the level of your voice. A problem noticeable with folks who have become hearing impaired, or totally deaf. There's obviously a lot of stuff going on that you don't know about when you sing. It's only when you listen to the recording that you become aware of it. Think Karaoke, and you've had a few too many. What would that sound like the next day. (That was just for fun). It's been great reading this thread. Nigel.

I'm of the opinion that you should work on getting the vocals to sound good dry -- before adding any effects. What are you using to record the vocals? I recommend a good condensor mike and a pre-amp,

and use balanced XLR for the entire signal path, at least until where the signal is going into your audio interface, where you probably just have RCA or 1/8" inputs.

Hi Paul, After a very quick listen I think your wife has a very nice voice. Is she ready to leaving you? Because I am available.

>>A tip for using Freeverb: It may seem a bit plain >>and sometimes harsh >>for vocals by itself, but you can get very good >>sounds out of it with >>some tricks: >> >>First, set the "damping" really high, that makes it >>smoother. >> >>Now try adding some predelay - a simple delay plugin >>in front of the reverb, >>at 100% wet; try around 50 ms delay to start with - >>that makes the >>"room" a little bigger and more interesting. Lower >>the delay time to make it more subtle; bump it up to >>100 ms to make it a more obvious effect. >> >>Finally, try post-filtering; follow the delay/reverb >>combo with a low >>pass filter (the simple one-pole filter from CMT >>will do fine); set the >>cutoff around 5000 Hz to start with and adjust to >>taste. Smooooth. >>

On Wednesday 07 December 2005 07:40, Loki Davison was like: I'm glad you did though. I haven't really dug into the world of convolution, I suspect that it's the way to get the kind of reverb effects that I'm after. Consider the hint taken here. :) -- cheers, tim hall http://glastonburymusic.org.uk/tim

close-micing instruments [..] condensor mic

I am not familiar with the term "static mic".

Neither dynamic nor condensor (aka capacitor) mics are inherently fragile at high SPL.

On Fri, Dec 09, 2005 at 03:23:03AM +0100, Esben Stien wrote: Ah, thanks, maybe it's just not a common term in the US. Well, there are plenty of condenser mics that can handle 140 dB SPL without harm or audible distortion. That's extremely loud. Of course it depends on the mic in question, but even my cheap MXL condenser mics are rated at 130 dB at 0.5% THD, which is still much louder than a typical rock concert. Mechanical fragility if you drop it is another question entirely. I wouldn't want to drop one of these cheap MXL mics. Not that they're badly made, but they ARE cheap.

On Fri, Dec 09, 2005 at 03:23:03AM +0100, Esben Stien wrote: I definitely believe that dropping them would damage them. Not many mics besides an SM57 I'd willingly drop and expect to have them working ::-)

http://slinkp.com/~paul/dont_get_sad_mix_20051206.mp3 I played guitar and sang backups (badly), my wife sang lead (beautifully). And no, we didn't write that, it's a cover of an Ida song. I wish I wrote that.

I don't think your backup singing was done badly, but was done without confidence or you were trying to sing quietly. A creative suggestion: record your backup track separately. Put a lot more volume into your singing when recording. You can adjust to the proper level in the mixdown.

On Tue, 2005-12-06 at 06:05 -0500, Bill Allen wrote: Actually this reminds me of something that's been bugging me. What's that really digital sounding vocal effect that you hear on a lot of R&B stuff these days? It's all over that tune "I'm Sprung" that was on the radio all summer, and in the Simpsons episode where they have a boy band, on Ralph Wiggum's voice when he sings "love formation". Lee

Pitch correction with drastic settings (like the Atares AutoTune). Sometimes it's also used to fake the sound of a vocoder.

Pitch correction with drastic settings (like the Atares AutoTune). Sometimes it's also used to fake the sound of a vocoder.

That's exactly what I was talking about. There are lots of it. I think one of the first was the Antares (it exists both for ProTools and as a VST).

Obligatory Linux content: what's the LADSPA equivalent?

Dammit, you mean I can't produce boy bands with Linux? What good is it then?

On Wed, 2005-12-07 at 14:49 -0500, Lee Revell wrote: Steve Harris has a pitch shifter plugin: http://plugin.org.uk/ladspa-swh/docs/ladspa-swh.html#tth_sEc2.6 I don't know if it will produce the same artifacts when abused.

On Wed, 2005-12-07 at 12:51 -0800, Mark Knecht wrote: but is this a pitch corrector like the AutoTune or just a pitch shifter?

Aaron Trumm wrote: just a pitch shifter? We don't need to steenkin' pitch correction...

-- Brett

On Wed, 2005-12-07 at 12:51 -0800, Mark Knecht wrote: That's easy - just connect it up in Om and play the reference melody on your keyboard.

No side channel needed, the builtin Om note module transforms MIDI to a frequency signal that you can use to control the pitch shifter. But for auto tuning you need to know the pitch of the dry sound as well, so I guess it's not as easy as I thought. -- Lars Luthman

On Wed, 2005-12-07 at 15:41 -0800, Mark Knecht wrote: Now I'm confused. Are we still talking about the "AM pitchshifter" plugin (1433) ? It has a control input port called "Pitch shift" which determins the amount of shift, you can connect any control rate signal to that port. Or you could downsample an audio rate signal and connect that. For realtime modulation it would probably be better to have an audio rate input port for the shift amount though.

On Wed, 2005-12-07 at 12:51 -0800, Mark Knecht wrote: That's easy - just connect it up in Om and play the reference melody on your keyboard.

On Wed, 2005-12-07 at 14:49 -0500, Lee Revell wrote: Steve Harris has a pitch shifter plugin: http://plugin.org.uk/ladspa-swh/docs/ladspa-swh.html#tth_sEc2.6 I don't know if it will produce the same artifacts when abused.

On Wed, 2005-12-07 at 21:19 +0000, guy wrote: Aesthetic, yes, but I don't think it raises any more ethical issues than quantization or synthesizers. It's just another way of changing a sound, that people with a good ear will be able to pick up on. Lee

Basically the 'cher' effect we're talking about is the result of setting the response speed of the pitch correction to a very small amount. Even the best singer reaches the correct pitch by listening to himself, it's a continuous feedback. When using such an effect the voice goes from a pitch to another so fast it sounds fake.

On Wednesday 07 December 2005 21:19, guy was like: I disagree. It's the same as all new technology. It's cool if you either a) are the first person to do it or b) are cleverer about it than the last person who tried it AND it's musically relevant. Technology and ability are all means toward the ends of realising your visions. Using Linux deals with most of the ethical issues. So, it's not so much that you can't produce Boy Bands using Linux, just that Linux is a bit more picky about its Boy Bands. ;] -- cheers, tim hall http://glastonburymusic.org.uk/tim

BTW this thread reminds me of a joke: Q: What did the Pro Tools engineer say to the artist? A: Sounds like shit, come on in!

On Tue, 2005-12-06 at 14:47 -0500, Lee Revell wrote: Cher started that garbage about 4 or 5 years ago - it's pitch correction taken to extremes.

Lee Revell wrote: I'm not sure I've heard this effect... what other songs have used it?

Lee Revell wrote: I found it... very annoying effect. I think that's the same thing used on that one Audioslave song near the end... it's like someone is using a whammy bar on the voice -- Brett

I'm not sure I've heard this effect... what other songs have used it?

I don't get it either. How can it be considered progress when almost 30 years later "state of the art" CGI still looks worse than Star Wars did? I guess because it's cheaper. Sad, really.

Gotta have 'em! Tubes, tubes, tubes. I've got an HHB Fat Man stereo tube compressor and an Art Pro Channel with tube/optical compression. I even use the Pro Channel live 'cause it just sounds so good.

Well, it depends. I think AutoTune sounds kind of obnoxious when used as anything more than a touch-up. I respect the idea of abusing it for a new effect. Somehow, it doesn't come out pleasing though... ::-). It's probably just that the music I associate it with isn't the best. I suspect it'd be a great effect paired with some things that I like - think electronica/industrial hard rock mixes. I wouldn't be too surprised to learn that some of the effects The Faint come up with cam from AT. Anyhow, just playing it straight - don't hate the effect, hate the bad choice of the sound dude.