27 Jun
2004
27 Jun
'04
9:13 a.m.
Hello,
I have purchased a CD that seems to be copy protected. When I play it,
using XMMS and digital playback, it's rather noisy/clicky.
I'd still like to play it, either directly, or by reading to disk first.
As I understand, I need some software that would implement Reed-Solomon
correction, as done in usual CD players. Is any such software available?
Preferrably for Linux, of course.
Yours, Mikhail Ramendik
27 Jun
27 Jun
10:41 a.m.
Hallo,
Mikhail Ramendik hat gesagt: // Mikhail Ramendik wrote:
I have purchased a CD that seems to be copy protected.
When I play it,
using XMMS and digital playback, it's rather noisy/clicky.
I'd still like to play it, either directly, or by reading to disk first.
As I understand, I need some software that would implement Reed-Solomon
correction, as done in usual CD players. Is any such software available?
You might try to rip the CD to wav files with cdparanoia. (Or
consider bringing the "faulty" CD back to your dealer.)
Ciao
--
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
7:10 p.m.
Hello,
Frank Barknecht wrote:
You might try to rip the CD to wav files with
cdparanoia. (Or
consider bringing the "faulty" CD back to your dealer.)
cdparanoia did not help :( and returning the CD won't work because
apparently this is the only recording of this composition on the market.
Yours, Mikhail Ramendik
8:22 p.m.
Hallo,
Mikhail Ramendik hat gesagt: // Mikhail Ramendik wrote:
cdparanoia did not help :(
Not all is lost: Try to find another computer with another CD drive.
Various drives handle these kinds of broken CDs differently. You could
also do an analogue copy, which can be of almost the same quality as a
digital rip.
Other than that I can only think of searching some P2P networks for
the contents of your CD, which you are kept away from although you
paid for it.
CIao
--
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
9:21 p.m.
Hello,
Frank Barknecht wrote:
Thanks. I'll try this idea.
cdparanoia did
not help :(
Not all is lost: Try to find another computer with another CD drive.
Various drives handle these kinds of broken CDs differently. You could
also do an analogue copy, which can be of almost the same quality as a
digital rip.
Now if I only get my CD player fixed... And this is probably what I need
to do next. After all, this may be merely a poor recording, and the
clicks, to think of it, sound remarkably like clipping.
Other than that I can only think of searching some P2P
networks for
the contents of your CD, which you are kept away from although you
paid for it.
I tried this before buying the CD. The trick is, I am dealing with
rather rare music.
28 Jun
28 Jun
2:28 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Reading/playing a "copy protected" CD : Reed-Solomon correction?
Mikhail Ramendik wrote:
I tried this before buying the CD. The trick is, I am
dealing with
rather rare music.
May I ask, what rare recording is on a label that participates in this
kind of copy protection? I'm under then impression that many rare
recordings would benefit from further digital distribution. A friend of
mine has quite a large collection of rare garage rock and psychedelic
rock from the 60s he found on Soulseek. Most recording are long out of
print.
-lee
1 Jul
1 Jul
11:49 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] The copy-protected (or broken?) recording
Hello,
lee wrote:
May I ask, what rare recording is on a label that
participates in this
kind of copy protection?
There were other similar questions.
The answer is: the oratorio "Crucifixon" by Sir John Stainer. Performed
by the BBC Singers, distributed by something called CHANDOS.
I tried the P2P networks - it's not there. Nor am I going to put it
there. After all I only need it as an example; I am planning to work on
a translation and local performance of this same oratorio. (I have the
score and it's public domain).
Sincerely yours, Mikhail Ramendik
2 Jul
2 Jul
1:27 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] The copy-protected (or broken?) recording
There's a lot of them:
http://ukcdr.org/issues/cd/bad/
http://dmoz.org/Society/Issues/Intellectual_Property/Music_Freedom/Corrupte…
io_CDs/
On 02-Jul-2004 Mikhail Ramendik wrote:
} Hello,
}
} lee wrote:
}
} > May I ask, what rare recording is on a label that participates in this
} > kind of copy protection?
}
} There were other similar questions.
}
} The answer is: the oratorio "Crucifixon" by Sir John Stainer. Performed
} by the BBC Singers, distributed by something called CHANDOS.
}
} I tried the P2P networks - it's not there. Nor am I going to put it
} there. After all I only need it as an example; I am planning to work on
} a translation and local performance of this same oratorio. (I have the
} score and it's public domain).
}
} Sincerely yours, Mikhail Ramendik
----------------------------------
E-Mail: RickTaylor(a)Speakeasy.Net
Date: 01-Jul-2004
Time: 22:08:19
This message was sent by XFMail
----------------------------------
9:26 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] The copy-protected (or broken?) recording
Last Friday 02 July 2004 02:39, Mikhail Ramendik was like:
The answer is: the oratorio "Crucifixon" by
Sir John Stainer. Performed
by the BBC Singers, distributed by something called CHANDOS.
Nice piece, if a little Victorian. Sang it as a kid.
Sorry not to be able to provide any useful info.
Good Luck!
tim hall
28 Jun
28 Jun
5:38 a.m.
Hallo,
Mikhail Ramendik hat gesagt: // Mikhail Ramendik wrote:
Now if I only get my CD player fixed... And this is
probably what I need
to do next. After all, this may be merely a poor recording, and the
clicks, to think of it, sound remarkably like clipping.
It also could be a CD that is unintentionally broken, that is not
"broken" as in copy protection but "broken" as in production mistake,
failure, kaput.
Ciao
--
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
27 Jun
27 Jun
10:54 p.m.
On Sunday 27 Jun 2004 23:13 pm, Frank Barknecht wrote:
Hallo,
Mikhail Ramendik hat gesagt: // Mikhail Ramendik wrote:
Some people report that old drives cope better with these discs, whether
that's because the optics are more tollerant or because they run at
lower speeds I don't know, but it may be worth a try.
cdparanoia did not help :(
Not all is lost: Try to find another computer with another CD drive.
Various drives handle these kinds of broken CDs differently. You
could also do an analogue copy, which can be of almost the same
quality as a digital rip.
I take this approach for encoding oggs - in your case, since the copy is
for car use the ambient sound will outweigh any quality loss.
If you really want a digital copy then you could use a digital audio
link, but it's probably not worth it.
Dylan
--
"I see your Schwartz is as big as mine"
-Dark Helmet
11:22 p.m.
Not all is lost: Try to find another computer with
another CD drive.
Various drives handle these kinds of broken CDs differently. You could
also do an analogue copy, which can be of almost the same quality as a
digital rip.
Do these things deliberately have broken CIRC (L1 errors)? They must sound
distorted, as when audio data doesn't survive level 2 - that's it. Unlike
CD-ROM Mode 1 Form 1 (data) which has L-ECC (and retries), you're in the
land of data loss and frame interpolation.
Other than that I can only think of searching some P2P
networks for
the contents of your CD, which you are kept away from although you
paid for it.
Those would be lossily compressed. You'd be better off making an analogue dub.
=MB=
--
A focus on Quality.
10:50 a.m.
Hi,
You can probably play/rip it with cdparanoia 'enhanced' software. Your
first and best tool for recovering data from copy protected or otherwise
broken (so-called) CDs is to use the command line cdparanoia.
"man cdparanoia" for details
Sampo
On Sun, 2004-06-27 at 14:03, Mikhail Ramendik wrote:
Hello,
I have purchased a CD that seems to be copy protected. When I play it,
using XMMS and digital playback, it's rather noisy/clicky.
I'd still like to play it, either directly, or by reading to disk first.
As I understand, I need some software that would implement Reed-Solomon
correction, as done in usual CD players. Is any such software available?
Preferrably for Linux, of course.
Yours, Mikhail Ramendik
2:50 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Reading/playing a "copy protected" CD : Reed-Solomon correction?
Sampo Savolainen wrote:
Hi,
You can probably play/rip it with cdparanoia 'enhanced' software. Your
first and best tool for recovering data from copy protected or otherwise
broken (so-called) CDs is to use the command line cdparanoia.
"man cdparanoia" for details
A friend of mine passed me one of these last week. The copy protection
somehow makes it impossible for a CD-ROM drive to even recognize there's
a disc in the drive. Regardless of OS or software used to copy audio, it
acts as if there's no disc present.
I've heard black magic marker can be drawn on certain areas to
"undamage" the disc. I haven't done any reading on the subject but I'm
sure google has some advice.
-lee
6:56 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Reading/playing a "copy protected" CD : Reed-Solomon correction?
Hi,
The black magic marker fix works only for one type of copy protection.
I have tested ripping many copy protected CDs and cdparanoia + my drive
(DRU-510a) works wonders on most. Sometimes I have to re-insert the cd a
few times before it worked. Some times cdparanoia reads the start of the
disc (about a minute worth of playing time) VERY slowly, but after that
everything is dandy. I've come over a few discs where the first track is
unrippable (or I wasn't patient enough), but all others come out very
easily.
All in all. The "copy protection" schemes are quite ineffective.
Especially when cdparanoia is not created for protected CDs, just
defective ones.. But I guess that is just poetic justice. :)
Sampo
On Sun, 2004-06-27 at 19:40, lee wrote:
Sampo Savolainen wrote:
Hi,
You can probably play/rip it with cdparanoia 'enhanced' software. Your
first and best tool for recovering data from copy protected or otherwise
broken (so-called) CDs is to use the command line cdparanoia.
"man cdparanoia" for details
A friend of mine passed me one of these last week. The copy protection
somehow makes it impossible for a CD-ROM drive to even recognize there's
a disc in the drive. Regardless of OS or software used to copy audio, it
acts as if there's no disc present.
I've heard black magic marker can be drawn on certain areas to
"undamage" the disc. I haven't done any reading on the subject but I'm
sure google has some advice.
-lee
7:08 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Reading/playing a "copy protected" CD : cdparanoia seems not to help
Hello,
Sampo Savolainen wrote:
You can probably play/rip it with cdparanoia
'enhanced' software. Your
first and best tool for recovering data from copy protected or otherwise
broken (so-called) CDs is to use the command line cdparanoia.
Well, so I did:
$ cdparanoia --verbose --batch "1-"
It has ripped, reporting no errors, And the clicks still seem to be
there!
Of course there's that chance that the clicks are actually a bad
recording, not copy protection. But it's not so likely; the recording is
not old (1997) and clains to use cool "20-bit recording" technology.
Actually I did think at first that the "20-bit" are at fault; but the
HDCD logo is not present, so apparently this is just a mastrering
technique, and the disk is supposed to be an ordinary CD?
Anyway, are there other tools to try and read it with error correction,
or perhaps cdparanoia options that I could have overlooked?
Yours, Mikhail Ramendik
"man cdparanoia" for details
Sampo
On Sun, 2004-06-27 at 14:03, Mikhail Ramendik wrote:
Hello,
I have purchased a CD that seems to be copy protected. When I play it,
using XMMS and digital playback, it's rather noisy/clicky.
I'd still like to play it, either directly, or by reading to disk first.
As I understand, I need some software that would implement Reed-Solomon
correction, as done in usual CD players. Is any such software available?
Preferrably for Linux, of course.
Yours, Mikhail Ramendik
7:44 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Reading/playing a "copy protected" CD : cdparanoia seems not to help
Hello,
Do the clicks appear random or do they come at a set interval (i.e. 30
seconds apart) or are they connected to the music (i.e. a crash cymbal)?
Just to be sure, have you tried the CD on a normal CD player? Do you
hear the clicks then? If not, then you could try to find a CD player
with spdif output and, presuming you have spdif input on your computer,
record the data digitally from a normal player.
Sampo
On Sun, 2004-06-27 at 23:59, Mikhail Ramendik wrote:
Hello,
Sampo Savolainen wrote:
You can probably play/rip it with cdparanoia
'enhanced' software. Your
first and best tool for recovering data from copy protected or otherwise
broken (so-called) CDs is to use the command line cdparanoia.
Well, so I did:
$ cdparanoia --verbose --batch "1-"
It has ripped, reporting no errors, And the clicks still seem to be
there!
Of course there's that chance that the clicks are actually a bad
recording, not copy protection. But it's not so likely; the recording is
not old (1997) and clains to use cool "20-bit recording" technology.
Actually I did think at first that the "20-bit" are at fault; but the
HDCD logo is not present, so apparently this is just a mastrering
technique, and the disk is supposed to be an ordinary CD?
Anyway, are there other tools to try and read it with error correction,
or perhaps cdparanoia options that I could have overlooked?
Yours, Mikhail Ramendik
"man cdparanoia" for details
Sampo
On Sun, 2004-06-27 at 14:03, Mikhail Ramendik wrote:
Hello,
I have purchased a CD that seems to be copy protected. When I play it,
using XMMS and digital playback, it's rather noisy/clicky.
I'd still like to play it, either directly, or by reading to disk first.
As I understand, I need some software that would implement Reed-Solomon
correction, as done in usual CD players. Is any such software available?
Preferrably for Linux, of course.
Yours, Mikhail Ramendik
9:24 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Reading/playing a "copy protected" CD : cdparanoia seems not to help
Hello,
Sampo Savolainen wrote:
Do the clicks appear random or do they come at a set
interval (i.e. 30
seconds apart) or are they connected to the music (i.e. a crash cymbal)?
They seem always there. They're not *loud* clicks, rather a quiet but
very-often repeated sound.
This, in fact, may be simple clipping. Except that I'm not ready at this
point to think that the Chandos company would simply release a crappy
recording; copy protection seems more likely.
Just to be sure, have you tried the CD on a normal CD
player? Do you
hear the clicks then?
I have not yet tried. This is probably what I need to do next, as this
seems to be the only way to find out if this is actually copy protection
- or mere clipping. (Or perhaps I can somehow check for clipping by
looking at the waveform in something like Audacity?)
Yours, Mikhail Ramendik
If not, then you could try to find a CD player
with spdif output and, presuming you have spdif input on your computer,
record the data digitally from a normal player.
Sampo
On Sun, 2004-06-27 at 23:59, Mikhail Ramendik wrote:
Hello,
Sampo Savolainen wrote:
You can probably play/rip it with cdparanoia
'enhanced' software. Your
first and best tool for recovering data from copy protected or otherwise
broken (so-called) CDs is to use the command line cdparanoia.
Well, so I did:
$ cdparanoia --verbose --batch "1-"
It has ripped, reporting no errors, And the clicks still seem to be
there!
Of course there's that chance that the clicks are actually a bad
recording, not copy protection. But it's not so likely; the recording is
not old (1997) and clains to use cool "20-bit recording" technology.
Actually I did think at first that the "20-bit" are at fault; but the
HDCD logo is not present, so apparently this is just a mastrering
technique, and the disk is supposed to be an ordinary CD?
Anyway, are there other tools to try and read it with error correction,
or perhaps cdparanoia options that I could have overlooked?
Yours, Mikhail Ramendik
"man cdparanoia" for details
Sampo
On Sun, 2004-06-27 at 14:03, Mikhail Ramendik wrote:
Hello,
I have purchased a CD that seems to be copy protected. When I play it,
using XMMS and digital playback, it's rather noisy/clicky.
I'd still like to play it, either directly, or by reading to disk first.
As I understand, I need some software that would implement Reed-Solomon
correction, as done in usual CD players. Is any such software available?
Preferrably for Linux, of course.
Yours, Mikhail Ramendik
11 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Reading/playing a "copy protected" CD : cdparanoia seems not to help
On Monday 28 Jun 2004 00:15 am, Mikhail Ramendik wrote:
<SNIP>
They [clicks] seem always there. They're not
*loud* clicks, rather a
quiet but
very-often repeated sound.
This, in fact, may be simple clipping. Except that I'm not ready at
this point to think that the Chandos company would simply release a
crappy recording; copy protection seems more likely.
Faults in recordings seem to be quite common on cds IME. What CD is it?
I have several with momentary silences after heavy bass beats as if an
auto limiter has cut in, or with crackle as if something has beed
overdriven too far.
IMHO studio engineers and producers are nowhere near as skilled now as
they were when vinyl was the target medium.
Dylan
--
"I see your Schwartz is as big as mine"
-Dark Helmet
28 Jun
28 Jun
6:28 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Reading/playing a "copy protected" CD : cdparanoia seems not to help
IMHO studio engineers and producers are nowhere near
as skilled now
as they were when vinyl was the target medium.
Maybe that's because there are more people able to make CDs than there
ever were who had access to a vinyl pressing plant. But there were
plenty of badly-made vinyl discs too - I've got more than a couple
where the hole is drilled off centre, or even more strangely with
hole in the centre but the groove closer to one side of the edge than
the other. Master discs could often be damaged or worn out too.
Cheers
Daniel
6 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Reading/playing a "copy protected" CD : cdparanoia seems not to help
On Mon, Jun 28, 2004 at 12:35:03AM +0300, Sampo Savolainen wrote:
you could try to find a CD player
with spdif output and, presuming you have spdif input on your computer,
record the data digitally from a normal player.
The possibility of doing this (I assume copy protected CDs can't prevent
it, if they can be played at all) is one more thing that makes a
mockery of the whole business of copy protection.
--
Anahata
anahata(a)treewind.co.uk Tel: 01638 720444
http://www.treewind.co.uk Mob: 07976 263827
10:05 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Reading/playing a "copy protected" CD : cdparanoia seems not to help
On Mon, 2004-06-28 at 02:46, Anahata wrote:
On Mon, Jun 28, 2004 at 12:35:03AM +0300, Sampo
Savolainen wrote:
What really makes a mockery of the copy protection racket is what the
RIAA calls the "analog hole". If I can hear it, I can copy it. Find a
CD player that can handle the chewed up CD, run the analog outs to your
computer, record it. I seriously doubt that there is anyone around who
can tell the difference between a digitally ripped copy and a digitally
encoded analog copy. A digitally encoded analog copy is way better than
any mp3/ogg file you're going to find anyway. As far as digital output
from CD players is concerned, the RIAA wants to either make them illegal
or cripple the CD in such a way that they don't work. The only
effective way to prevent music copying is to prevent music listening.
Don't put it past the RIAA to go that route, they're just stupid enough
to try it ;-)
Jan
you could try to find a CD player
with spdif output and, presuming you have spdif input on your computer,
record the data digitally from a normal player.
The possibility of doing this (I assume copy protected CDs can't prevent
it, if they can be played at all) is one more thing that makes a
mockery of the whole business of copy protection.
11:30 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Reading/playing a "copy protected" CD : cdparanoia seems not to help
On Mon, Jun 28, 2004 at 07:01:47AM -0500, Jan Depner wrote:
On Mon, 2004-06-28 at 02:46, Anahata wrote:
What really makes a mockery of the copy protection
racket is what the
RIAA calls the "analog hole". If I can hear it, I can copy it.
Yes, but some will argue that D-A and A-D conversion degrades the sound.
Digital copying though S/PDIF allows unlimited generations of copying
(as if it mattered... but that is the reason why the industry is all
upset about digital music and copying)
I seriously doubt that there is anyone around who
can tell the difference between a digitally ripped copy and a digitally
encoded analog copy. A digitally encoded analog copy is way better than
any mp3/ogg file you're going to find anyway.
In the practical world, I agree totally.
[RIAA threats]
Next the RIAA will prohibit playing your CDs to friends unless they've
paid the record company for a licence to listen...
--
Anahata
anahata(a)treewind.co.uk Tel: 01638 720444
http://www.treewind.co.uk Mob: 07976 263827
12:04 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Reading/playing a "copy protected" CD : cdparanoia seems not to help
Jan Depner wrote:
On Mon, 2004-06-28 at 02:46, Anahata wrote:
I can tell the difference, if it's not done properly, and it isn't
entirely trivial to do it properly. For starters, you need a decent
soundcard ... I've tried the stereo mini-in jack on this laptop and also
on a couple of other older motherboards / soundblasters and the quality
is _nowhere_ near the quality I get out of the VXpocket v2 with balanced
inputs, and even that's probably at the lower end of the "prosumer"
range. Non-sound people I know can immediately tell the difference too.
I've heard enough badly ripped vinyl recordings that I don't really
trust the general populace to make analog-to-digital encodings of any
work. Admittedly there are more complex factors involved with vinyl
than with CD's, but if it's any indication ...
I would like to agree though, and also find copy protection of any sort
to be ridiculous, in that "if I can read it, I can copy it". It's just
that in practice there can be so many hoops to jump through that you
start asking, "why do I even want this in the first place?"
Cheers,
Chris
On Mon, Jun 28, 2004 at 12:35:03AM +0300, Sampo
Savolainen wrote:
What really makes a mockery of the copy protection racket is what the
RIAA calls the "analog hole". If I can hear it, I can copy it. Find a
CD player that can handle the chewed up CD, run the analog outs to your
computer, record it. I seriously doubt that there is anyone around who
can tell the difference between a digitally ripped copy and a digitally
encoded analog copy. you could try to find a CD player
with spdif output and, presuming you have spdif input on your computer,
record the data digitally from a normal player.
The possibility of doing this (I assume copy protected CDs can't prevent
it, if they can be played at all) is one more thing that makes a
mockery of the whole business of copy protection.
8:23 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Reading/playing a "copy protected" CD : cdparanoia seems not to help
On Mon, 2004-06-28 at 08:48, Chris Pickett wrote:
Jan Depner wrote:
You're missing the point; I have no problem doing it correctly, I have
a pro soundcard, and it only takes one person ;-) After that it's all
digital.
Jan
On Mon, 2004-06-28 at 02:46, Anahata wrote:
I can tell the difference, if it's not done properly, and it isn't
entirely trivial to do it properly. For starters, you need a decent
soundcard ... I've tried the stereo mini-in jack on this laptop and also
on a couple of other older motherboards / soundblasters and the quality
is _nowhere_ near the quality I get out of the VXpocket v2 with balanced
inputs, and even that's probably at the lower end of the "prosumer"
range. Non-sound people I know can immediately tell the difference too.
I've heard enough badly ripped vinyl recordings that I don't really
trust the general populace to make analog-to-digital encodings of any
work. Admittedly there are more complex factors involved with vinyl
than with CD's, but if it's any indication ...
On Mon, Jun 28, 2004 at 12:35:03AM +0300, Sampo
Savolainen wrote:
What really makes a mockery of the copy protection racket is what the
RIAA calls the "analog hole". If I can hear it, I can copy it. Find a
CD player that can handle the chewed up CD, run the analog outs to your
computer, record it. I seriously doubt that there is anyone around who
can tell the difference between a digitally ripped copy and a digitally
encoded analog copy. you could try to find a CD player
with spdif output and, presuming you have spdif input on your computer,
record the data digitally from a normal player.
The possibility of doing this (I assume copy protected CDs can't prevent
it, if they can be played at all) is one more thing that makes a
mockery of the whole business of copy protection.
8:43 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Reading/playing a "copy protected" CD : cdparanoia seems not to help
Jan Depner wrote:
On Mon, 2004-06-28 at 08:48, Chris Pickett wrote:
I think I understand what you're saying: if there's enough people with
good hardware and knowledge of how to do a2d correctly, then it's
possible to get around all copy protection schemes.
The problems I see are:
1) this requires p2p networks to work, which have dubious legal status,
depending on your country, whereas it's not illegal to rip CD's at home
(barring DMCA nonsense)
2) it takes a lot longer to rip a2d than d2d
3) you can't pick files from networks just based on bit-rate; you either
need to go by the ripper's reputation, or by listening to them yourself,
to check that the person did it correctly.
Basically, at this point, in my opinion, the RIAA doesn't have much to
worry about w.r.t. the "analog hole".
Anyway, for me it's a moot point ... I just buy vinyl!
Cheers,
Chris
Jan Depner wrote:
You're missing the point; I have no problem doing it correctly, I have
a pro soundcard, and it only takes one person ;-) After that it's all
digital. On Mon, 2004-06-28 at 02:46, Anahata wrote:
I can tell the difference, if it's not done properly, and it isn't
entirely trivial to do it properly. For starters, you need a decent
soundcard ... I've tried the stereo mini-in jack on this laptop and also
on a couple of other older motherboards / soundblasters and the quality
is _nowhere_ near the quality I get out of the VXpocket v2 with balanced
inputs, and even that's probably at the lower end of the "prosumer"
range. Non-sound people I know can immediately tell the difference too.
I've heard enough badly ripped vinyl recordings that I don't really
trust the general populace to make analog-to-digital encodings of any
work. Admittedly there are more complex factors involved with vinyl
than with CD's, but if it's any indication ...
On Mon, Jun 28, 2004 at 12:35:03AM +0300, Sampo
Savolainen wrote:
>you could try to find a CD player
>with spdif output and, presuming you have spdif input on your computer,
>record the data digitally from a normal player.
The possibility of doing this (I assume copy protected CDs can't prevent
it, if they can be played at all) is one more thing that makes a
mockery of the whole business of copy protection.
What really makes a mockery of the copy protection racket is what the
RIAA calls the "analog hole". If I can hear it, I can copy it. Find a
CD player that can handle the chewed up CD, run the analog outs to your
computer, record it. I seriously doubt that there is anyone around who
can tell the difference between a digitally ripped copy and a digitally
encoded analog copy.
8:53 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Reading/playing a "copy protected" CD : cdparanoia seems not to help
On Mon, 2004-06-28 at 17:28, Chris Pickett wrote:
Jan Depner wrote:
All good points.
On Mon, 2004-06-28 at 08:48, Chris Pickett
wrote:
I think I understand what you're saying: if there's enough people with
good hardware and knowledge of how to do a2d correctly, then it's
possible to get around all copy protection schemes.
The problems I see are:
1) this requires p2p networks to work, which have dubious legal status,
depending on your country, whereas it's not illegal to rip CD's at home
(barring DMCA nonsense)
2) it takes a lot longer to rip a2d than d2d
3) you can't pick files from networks just based on bit-rate; you either
need to go by the ripper's reputation, or by listening to them yourself,
to check that the person did it correctly.
Jan Depner wrote:
You're missing the point; I have no problem doing it correctly, I have
a pro soundcard, and it only takes one person ;-) After that it's all
digital. On Mon, 2004-06-28 at 02:46, Anahata wrote:
>On Mon, Jun 28, 2004 at 12:35:03AM +0300, Sampo Savolainen wrote:
>
>
>>you could try to find a CD player
>>with spdif output and, presuming you have spdif input on your computer,
>>record the data digitally from a normal player.
>
>The possibility of doing this (I assume copy protected CDs can't prevent
>it, if they can be played at all) is one more thing that makes a
>mockery of the whole business of copy protection.
What really makes a mockery of the copy protection racket is what the
RIAA calls the "analog hole". If I can hear it, I can copy it. Find a
CD player that can handle the chewed up CD, run the analog outs to your
computer, record it. I seriously doubt that there is anyone around who
can tell the difference between a digitally ripped copy and a digitally
encoded analog copy.
I can tell the difference, if it's not done properly, and it isn't
entirely trivial to do it properly. For starters, you need a decent
soundcard ... I've tried the stereo mini-in jack on this laptop and also
on a couple of other older motherboards / soundblasters and the quality
is _nowhere_ near the quality I get out of the VXpocket v2 with balanced
inputs, and even that's probably at the lower end of the "prosumer"
range. Non-sound people I know can immediately tell the difference too.
I've heard enough badly ripped vinyl recordings that I don't really
trust the general populace to make analog-to-digital encodings of any
work. Admittedly there are more complex factors involved with vinyl
than with CD's, but if it's any indication ...
Basically, at this point, in my opinion, the RIAA
doesn't have much to
worry about w.r.t. the "analog hole".
Actually, a lot of what's available on P2P is analog ripped.
Anyway, for me it's a moot point ... I just buy
vinyl!
I can't find anything old (like me) in good shape or I'd do the same.
Jan
9:25 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Reading/playing a "copy protected" CD : cdparanoia seems not to help
Jan Depner wrote:
On Mon, 2004-06-28 at 17:28, Chris Pickett wrote:
I guess it depends on how old you want your music, what you're looking
for, and where you live. I've bought things dating back to the 70's
that are still fine, but I don't have a lot of experience buying stuff
much older than that.
Mostly I just use p2p networks to discover new music. It can be much
better than going to a store to listen / find stuff, and since it's
legal in Canada (currently!), I really don't have any problems with it.
If I like it but can't find it for sale, I just keep the ripped copy.
Cheers,
Chris
Anyway, for me it's a moot point ... I just
buy vinyl!
I can't find anything old (like me) in good shape or I'd do the same.
9:25 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Reading/playing a "copy protected" CD : cdparanoia seems not to help
Jan Depner wrote:
On Mon, 2004-06-28 at 17:28, Chris Pickett wrote:
I guess it depends on how old you want your music, what you're looking
for, and where you live. I've bought things dating back to the 70's
that are still fine, but I don't have a lot of experience buying stuff
much older than that.
Mostly I just use p2p networks to discover new music. It can be much
better than going to a store to listen / find stuff, and since it's
legal in Canada (currently!), I really don't have any problems with it.
If I like it but can't find it for sale, I just keep the ripped copy.
Chris
Anyway, for me it's a moot point ... I just
buy vinyl!
I can't find anything old (like me) in good shape or I'd do the same. 
11:10 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Reading/playing a "copy protected" CD : cdparanoia seems not to help
On 2004-06-28T18:28:10-0400, Chris Pickett wrote:
1) this requires p2p networks to work, which have
dubious legal status,
depending on your country, whereas it's not illegal to rip CD's at home
(barring DMCA nonsense)
I never got that whole deal.
p2p is the best marketing tool that the record companies could have invented
(but didn't). I bought a lot more CDs when using those services (but slowly
running of artist that I heard and found interesting).
Most places, you cannot even hear what you are buying (no refunds of course).
Or it is standing up or on a wood stool with either cheap scans or awful
speakers.
Music sales is falling due to high prices (even if that requires illegal acts),
and not exactly for a product with staller artisctic quality (it's the Britney
of the world that sells CDs). Those popular artists are pushed down your
throad via radio, playing the same songs in an endless loop. (If you happen to
buy that CD in heavy radio rotiation, you will find that single was the only
decent song on that CD).
I wonder, would it be possible to purchases without indirectly supporting
lawyers that sue teenagers for a living? No one can really argue about paying
for a service or product, certainly I am happy to directly supports artests
(except Metallica which operate like a record company it seems).
Another thing that really gets me going is that I cannot listen to an
(original) CD (that was I given) on the device of my choice (a
computer). Yet, full price was paid for an inferior product. It is
absolutely crazy (this was EMI). Why don't they sell those bastard CDs
at a fraction of the real product? They may find happy buyers for both.
Internet radio caught my interested just before it was shot down; too
good an option I guess.
Sorry for the gasoline, but I am interested in if you can buy CDs
without supporting RIAA indirectly. It would be awesome to see sales
move as a result of customers voting with cash.
/Allan
5:56 a.m.
Almost a year ago, I wrote a message to the list on how I managed
to play a Cactus Data Shield copy protected (mutilated) 'CD' with
linux. See below. The link to the original thread:
http://www.music.columbia.edu/pipermail/linux-audio-user/2003-July/005211.h…
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello,
A collegue of mine just bought the new Radio Head CD, Hail To The Thief.
As the box says, this CD is "Copy Controlled". Some searching on the web
revealed that it's using so called Cactus Data Shield 200 protection, which
means deliberate errors on the cd, that most (not all!) CD players deal
with correctly, but cd-rom readers don't. So, what if you want to play
your "CD" on a computer? Well, the CD also includes a data track, with a
MS Windows (yeah..) application. However! This application does not play
the CD audio but a compressed format also included on the CD! Another
interesting issue is that the fake errors might actually cause problems
when some real errors occur on the CD, that normally would have been
corrected, but not anymore in combination with the fake errors.
Obviously, all this is completely unacceptable, so I advice you to never
buy a Copy Controlled CD. If you have bought one, bring it back to the
store. They have absolutely no reason not to give you your money back.
(From the web: 'Philips controls the CD standard and their spokesman
says: "Any changes that put a disc outside the CD standard result in a
disc that should no longer be described or marketed as a CD." Philips,
because of conformity issues, has warned the record labels that the
discs are actually not compact discs at all, and must bear warning
labels to inform consumers.'). I'd add that stores should then not be
allowed to sell these CD's in a part of the store that says "Compact
Discs"
Note that I did manage to play the CD with Linux. My very old (>6 years)
SCSI cd writer has been able to read the copy protected CD with
cdparanoia. but... in the left channel, every 5.8 sec some values are
distorted: about 10 groups of 1 to 3 samples in a row get an extreme
value (not always the same, but near maximum). I wrote a small
application that corrects those distorted values (linear interpolation
with the surrounding samples). I assume this information is legal,
because it is only to play the cd, not to copy it.
Maarten
1 Jul
1 Jul
10:28 p.m.
Hello,
Maarten de Boer wrote:
Almost a year ago, I wrote a message to the list on
how I managed
to play a Cactus Data Shield copy protected (mutilated) 'CD' with
linux. See below. The link to the original thread:
Thanks.
Question: what did the copy-protected CD sound like when played on
CD-ROM? I'm just starting to think that what I have is after all a
problematic recording, not copy protection. At least, no data track
seems to be there (at least Linux does not mount it).
Yours, Mikhail Ramendik
http://www.music.columbia.edu/pipermail/linux-audio-user/2003-July/005211.h…
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello,
A collegue of mine just bought the new Radio Head CD, Hail To The Thief.
As the box says, this CD is "Copy Controlled". Some searching on the web
revealed that it's using so called Cactus Data Shield 200 protection, which
means deliberate errors on the cd, that most (not all!) CD players deal
with correctly, but cd-rom readers don't. So, what if you want to play
your "CD" on a computer? Well, the CD also includes a data track, with a
MS Windows (yeah..) application. However! This application does not play
the CD audio but a compressed format also included on the CD! Another
interesting issue is that the fake errors might actually cause problems
when some real errors occur on the CD, that normally would have been
corrected, but not anymore in combination with the fake errors.
Obviously, all this is completely unacceptable, so I advice you to never
buy a Copy Controlled CD. If you have bought one, bring it back to the
store. They have absolutely no reason not to give you your money back.
(From the web: 'Philips controls the CD standard and their spokesman
says: "Any changes that put a disc outside the CD standard result in a
disc that should no longer be described or marketed as a CD." Philips,
because of conformity issues, has warned the record labels that the
discs are actually not compact discs at all, and must bear warning
labels to inform consumers.'). I'd add that stores should then not be
allowed to sell these CD's in a part of the store that says "Compact
Discs"
Note that I did manage to play the CD with Linux. My very old (>6 years)
SCSI cd writer has been able to read the copy protected CD with
cdparanoia. but... in the left channel, every 5.8 sec some values are
distorted: about 10 groups of 1 to 3 samples in a row get an extreme
value (not always the same, but near maximum). I wrote a small
application that corrects those distorted values (linear interpolation
with the surrounding samples). I assume this information is legal,
because it is only to play the cd, not to copy it.
Maarten
2 Jul
2 Jul
12:35 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Reading/playing a "copy protected" CD : Reed-Solomon correction?
Mikhail Ramendik wrote:
Hello,
Maarten de Boer wrote:
I know your CD player is broken, but just try playing it in somebody
else's CD player already!
Cheers,
Chris
Almost a year ago, I wrote a message to the list
on how I managed
to play a Cactus Data Shield copy protected (mutilated) 'CD' with
linux. See below. The link to the original thread:
Thanks.
Question: what did the copy-protected CD sound like when played on
CD-ROM? I'm just starting to think that what I have is after all a
problematic recording, not copy protection. At least, no data track
seems to be there (at least Linux does not mount it).
7:14 a.m.
Thanks.
Question: what did the copy-protected CD sound like when played on
CD-ROM?
Under Linux, I did not even try. I ran cdparanoia right away. The
resulting wav files had the spikes I described in my previous mail,
and they sounded just like that. Clicks every several seconds. I
smoothed out those spikes, and voila.
Opening the wav files in a soundfile editor showed the
spikes caused by the copy-protection very obviously obvious.
Under Windows, playing from CD-Rom meant playing the compressed files
from the data track, with the player from the data track. This sounded
notably worse than the (corrected) wave files. Like badly encoded
128 bit mp3.
I'm just starting to think that what I have is
after all a
problematic recording, not copy protection. At least, no data track
seems to be there (at least Linux does not mount it).
I don't think this is related. The CD I talk about happened to provide
this data track as a "solution" for people to be able to play the
copy-protected cd on a windows PC. There might very well be CD's with
the same copy-protection and without the data track.
Maarten
7:34 a.m.
On Fri, 2 Jul 2004 09:12:45 +0000 (UTC)
Maarten De Boer <mdeboer(a)iua.upf.es> wrote:
Under Linux, I did not even try. I ran cdparanoia
right away. The
resulting wav files had the spikes I described in my previous mail,
and they sounded just like that. Clicks every several seconds. I
smoothed out those spikes, and voila.
Did you try ripping the files twice? Were the spike always at the
same locations?
Erik
--
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
Erik de Castro Lopo nospam(a)mega-nerd.com (Yes it's valid)
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
"The beauty of religious mania is that it has the power to
explain everything. Once God (or Satan) is accepted as the first
cause of everything which happens in the mortal world, nothing
is left to chance...logic can be happily tossed out the window."
- Stephen King
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linux-audio-user@lists.linuxaudio.org
34 comments
15 participants
participants (15)
-
allanwind＠lifeintegrity.com -
Anahata -
Chris Pickett -
Daniel James -
Dylan -
Erik de Castro Lopo -
Frank Barknecht -
Jan Depner -
lee -
Maarten de Boer -
Malcolm Baldridge -
Mikhail Ramendik -
RickTaylor＠Speakeasy.Net -
Sampo Savolainen -
tim hall