1 Nov
2016
1 Nov
'16
1:59 p.m.
Hey hey,
sorry to ask this here, but I'm not very familiar with 19th century music,
which is what I'm interested in. I know that this list harbours some
connaisseurs of classical music. :)
I'm looking for symphonies with good examples of independent voices or
counterpunctual techniques. So far I've looked at Beethoven's 9th, Mahler's
1st, Dvorak's 9th and even Mozart's Jpiter symphony. But the wealth of
information online is too much to delve into it without more keywords.
Unfortunately, "symphony" is also well-liked term for a lot of sites dealing
with classical music in general.
So, if someone could suggest more works, or composers, which are famed for
their strong, parallel voices, I'd be very grateful.
If I should try to restrict this research further - or get lost with it
completely -, please let me know as well.
Thank you and
best wishes,
Jeanette
--------
When you need someone, you just turn around and I will be there <3
1 Nov
1 Nov
2:29 p.m.
Hey J !
On 11/01/2016 08:59 AM, J. C. wrote:
Hey hey,
sorry to ask this here, but I'm not very familiar with 19th century
music, which is what I'm interested in. I know that this list harbours
some connaisseurs of classical music. :)
I'm looking for symphonies with good examples of independent voices or
counterpunctual techniques. So far I've looked at Beethoven's 9th,
Mahler's 1st, Dvorak's 9th and even Mozart's Jupiter symphony. But the
wealth of information online is too much to delve into it without more
keywords. Unfortunately, "symphony" is also well-liked term for a lot
of sites dealing with classical music in general.
So, if someone could suggest more works, or composers, which are famed
for their strong, parallel voices, I'd be very grateful.
If I should try to restrict this research further - or get lost with
it completely -, please let me know as well.
You'll certainly find contrapuntal writing in the symphonic scores by
composers from the 19th and late 18th centuries. However, the smaller
instrumental ensembles, such as the string quartets of Haydn and the
string quintets by Mozart, tend towards more transparent textures more
favorable to counterpoint.
Check out Ravel's string quartet, and of course there's Beethoven's
Grosse Fuge, Opus 133, which is indeed a mighty big fugue.
Best,
dp
2:45 p.m.
On 11/01/2016 08:59 AM, J. C. wrote:
I'm looking for symphonies with good examples of independent voices or
counterpunctual techniques. So far I've looked at Beethoven's 9th,
Mahler's 1st, Dvorak's 9th and even Mozart's Jpiter symphony. But the
wealth of information online is too much to delve into it without more
keywords. Unfortunately, "symphony" is also well-liked term for a lot of
sites dealing with classical music in general.
add fugue, contrapuntal, counterpoint, polyphony etc to your symphonic
searches.
All 19th century composers were trained extensively in counterpoint and
you can find examples, be it shorter imitative phrases or full-blown
fugues (less so) in most major symphonic works of the 19th century.
I can probably help you more if you give a bit more detail as to what
you want from these examples.
As Dave said above, you will find many more examples in chamber music
than the symphony.
//
3:01 p.m.
Nov 1 2016, David Santamauro has written:
...
I can probably help you more if you give a bit more
detail as to what you
want from these examples.
As Dave said above, you will find many more examples in chamber music than
the symphony.
Hello Daivd and Dave,
thank you both for the pointers. I'm a quite familiar with Bach and the
forms of his time. Thus, I've seen a bit of counterpoint - and even
played it. :) Though I'll give Beethoven's "Große Fuge" a go.
The intention is to hear examples of strong, independent voices in a big
orchestra. I can imagine that most composers didn't go too far, in the
iterest of having discernable music and not one great mush. But I'd like
to know what can be done, and what people have done, when they wanted to
do more than simple accompaniment to the main melody. If you put 19th
centure concertos on one end of the spectrum (e.g. Grieg's A minor piano
concerto) and something like Beethoven's 9th symph0ony on the other end,
I'm looking for more works on the latter end. I need some inspiration
and practical demonstration of techniques/scoring.
Still quite vague, but my composition is in a very early stage yet.
Thanks again and best wishes,
Jeanette
//
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--------
When you need someone, you just turn around and I will be there <3
3:57 p.m.
On 11/01/2016 10:01 AM, J. C. wrote:
Nov 1 2016, David Santamauro has written:
...
If you are concerned about orchestration of polyphony (your own or an
orchestration of someone else), then I'd grab an orchestration book and
study examples of fore/middle/background techniques[1]. Of course,
Mozart's Jupiter symphony is by far one of the more complex examples
(quintuple fugue). Adler analyzes this section quite nicely (pulled book
off shelf and blew the dust off :) ). There are other examples that are
analyzed in that section and although not strictly polyphonic, they
detail the idea of orchestral colors for each of the elements
(fore/middle/background)--and of course, what is polyphony if not a
collection of elements ...
Have a look at Mahler, Symphony #5 2nd and 3rd movements. The 3rd has a
small fugue that is developed throughout. Brahms' Symphony #1 1st
movement has "vertical" polyphony per se and the presto has wonderful
imitation based on the rising/descending lines of the introduction. And
of course, Holst Planets (Jupiter): wonderful fore/middle/background
technique.
Hope that helps ...
[1] Adler: The Study of Orchestration (Ch 15)
I can probably help you more if you give a bit
more detail as to what
you want from these examples.
As Dave said above, you will find many more examples in chamber music
than the symphony.
Hello Daivd and Dave,
thank you both for the pointers. I'm a quite familiar with Bach and the
forms of his time. Thus, I've seen a bit of counterpoint - and even
played it. :) Though I'll give Beethoven's "Große Fuge" a go.
The intention is to hear examples of strong, independent voices in a big
orchestra. I can imagine that most composers didn't go too far, in the
iterest of having discernable music and not one great mush. But I'd like
to know what can be done, and what people have done, when they wanted to
do more than simple accompaniment to the main melody. If you put 19th
centure concertos on one end of the spectrum (e.g. Grieg's A minor piano
concerto) and something like Beethoven's 9th symph0ony on the other end,
I'm looking for more works on the latter end. I need some inspiration
and practical demonstration of techniques/scoring.
4:20 p.m.
Nov 1 2016, David Santamauro has written:
...
If you are concerned about orchestration of polyphony
(your own or an
orchestration of someone else), then I'd grab an orchestration book and study
examples of fore/middle/background techniques[1]. Of course, Mozart's Jupiter
symphony is by far one of the more complex examples (quintuple fugue). Adler
analyzes this section quite nicely (pulled book off shelf and blew the dust
off :) ). There are other examples that are analyzed in that section and
although not strictly polyphonic, they detail the idea of orchestral colors
for each of the elements (fore/middle/background)--and of course, what is
polyphony if not a collection of elements ...
No book reading - especially with
note practical score analysis - for
me, since I'm blind, but thanks for the terms, these should yield more
theoretical results on the internet.
Have a look at Mahler, Symphony #5 2nd and 3rd movements. The 3rd has a small
fugue that is developed throughout. Brahms' Symphony #1 1st movement has
"vertical" polyphony per se and the presto has wonderful imitation based on
the rising/descending lines of the introduction. And of course, Holst Planets
(Jupiter): wonderful fore/middle/background technique.
Thank you so very much, this
will help. I've gone and bookmarked those
on youtube and will listen to them all. They should help.
Best wishes,
Jeanette
Hope that helps ...
[1] Adler: The Study of Orchestration (Ch 15)
--------
When you need someone, you just turn around and I will be there <3
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3 participants
participants (3)
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Dave Phillips -
David Santamauro -
J. C.