22 Sep
2006
22 Sep
'06
4:49 a.m.
Hi,
Yesterday while I was researching how to get flash movies to load very
quickly I came across some detailed explanations of the buffer problem
that so many people get when watching flash movies.
Apparently it is widely known that streaming from a server where the
movie has to be fully cached in local memory while downloading causes
buffering problems in movies over 2 minutes long.
The official Macromedia solution is to use their closed source streaming
server which allows much greater flexibility and control of the stream
while also preventing the file from being cached in local memory so it
is harder to rip or copy.
This leaves me with the question: Is the buffering problem for movies >
2 min a design flaw or feature?
Cheers.
--
Patrick Shirkey - Boost Hardware Ltd.
Http://www.boosthardware.com
Http://lau.linuxaudio.org - The Linux Audio Users guide
========================================
"Anything your mind can see you can manifest physically, then it will
become reality" - Macka B
22 Sep
22 Sep
12:09 p.m.
On Fri, 2006-09-22 at 13:43 +0700, Patrick Shirkey wrote:
The official Macromedia solution is to use their
closed source
streaming server which allows much greater flexibility and control of
the stream while also preventing the file from being cached in local
memory so it is harder to rip or copy.
This leaves me with the question: Is the buffering
problem for movies
2 min a design flaw or feature?
I would call it "sheer idiocy" and yet another reason Flash is evil.
Lee
23 Sep
23 Sep
6:21 a.m.
On Friday 22 September 2006 15:03, Lee Revell was like:
I would call it "sheer idiocy" and yet
another reason Flash is evil.
Yeah, Flash is evil.
Unfortunately most know-nothing computer users expect it to work out of the
box. What open-source alternative is there that gives the same kind of
scriptable interaction? The merciless MNG didn't turn out to be much of an
adversary did it?
--
cheers,
tim hall
http://glastonburymusic.org.uk/tim
We are the people We've been waiting for.
6:42 a.m.
tim hall wrote:
On Friday 22 September 2006 15:03, Lee Revell was
like:
The paradigm that Flash represents is great but the way they license it
and continue to keep it private when it is very obviously a monopoly is
evil.
It's still the most effective way to get high quality animation or video
into a webpage and you know that 95% of the browsers in the world
support it. Compared to embedded mpg, wmv or rm...
Plus it's light weight.
SVG is the answer but the development is still far from being complete.
Give them time though. Firefox now has svg support without having to
patch and supposedly msie7 will too.
--
Patrick Shirkey - Boost Hardware Ltd.
Http://www.boosthardware.com
Http://lau.linuxaudio.org - The Linux Audio Users guide
========================================
"Anything your mind can see you can manifest physically, then it will
become reality" - Macka B
I would call it "sheer idiocy" and yet
another reason Flash is evil.
Yeah, Flash is evil.
Unfortunately most know-nothing computer users expect it to work out of the
box. What open-source alternative is there that gives the same kind of
scriptable interaction? The merciless MNG didn't turn out to be much of an
adversary did it?
7:16 a.m.
On Saturday 23 September 2006 09:40, Patrick Shirkey was like:
SVG is the answer but the development is still far
from being complete.
Give them time though. Firefox now has svg support without having to
patch and supposedly msie7 will too.
SVG? For animations with scriptable user interactivity? really? how?
--
cheers,
tim hall
http://glastonburymusic.org.uk/tim
We are the people We've been waiting for.
8:07 a.m.
tim hall wrote:
On Saturday 23 September 2006 09:40, Patrick Shirkey
was like:
I haven't seen any specific examples but I recall it being possible to
do animated svg. The scriptable user interactivity can be achieved
through AJAX methods or a specific plugin may be developed much like the
Flash plugin.
IIUC Flash is just XML run through a specific set of functions defined
in the flash plugin.
--
Patrick Shirkey - Boost Hardware Ltd.
Http://www.boosthardware.com
Http://lau.linuxaudio.org - The Linux Audio Users guide
========================================
"Anything your mind can see you can manifest physically, then it will
become reality" - Macka B
SVG is the answer but the development is still
far from being complete.
Give them time though. Firefox now has svg support without having to
patch and supposedly msie7 will too.
SVG? For animations with scriptable user interactivity? really? how? 
10:20 a.m.
On Sat, Sep 23, 2006 at 05:06:59PM +0700, Patrick Shirkey wrote:
Not of much worth without a convenient authoring tool.
--
Thorsten Wilms
SVG? For
animations with scriptable user interactivity? really? how?
I haven't seen any specific examples but I recall it being possible to
do animated svg. The scriptable user interactivity can be achieved
through AJAX methods or a specific plugin may be developed much like the
Flash plugin.
4:01 p.m.
On Saturday 23 September 2006 13:17, Thorsten Wilms was like:
On Sat, Sep 23, 2006 at 05:06:59PM +0700, Patrick
Shirkey wrote:
Not of much worth without a convenient authoring tool.
I'm sure that if there were a suitable format and plugin, the authors of
synfig and ktoon might be prepared to support it.
--
cheers,
tim hall
http://glastonburymusic.org.uk/tim
We are the people We've been waiting for.
SVG? For
animations with scriptable user interactivity? really? how?
I haven't seen any specific examples but I recall it being possible to
do animated svg. The scriptable user interactivity can be achieved
through AJAX methods or a specific plugin may be developed much like the
Flash plugin.
1:19 p.m.
On Sat, 2006-09-23 at 15:40 +0700, Patrick Shirkey wrote:
tim hall wrote:
What's wrong with embedded .mpg or .wmv, other than being easy to
download (or "pirate" if you talk to the content people). Those work on
a much wider range of OSes than Flash.
For example, why in the hell do YouTube and Google Video default to
flash? Embedded .mpg would be MUCH more user friendly.
Flash does not work at all on my Linux system (terrible AV sync,
probably because my machine is slow), but I can watch DVD-quality .mpgs
and .avis without dropping a frame.
Lee
On Friday 22 September 2006 15:03, Lee Revell was
like:
The paradigm that Flash represents is great but the way they license it
and continue to keep it private when it is very obviously a monopoly is
evil.
It's still the most effective way to get high quality animation or video
into a webpage and you know that 95% of the browsers in the world
support it. Compared to embedded mpg, wmv or rm... I would call it "sheer idiocy" and yet
another reason Flash is evil.
Yeah, Flash is evil.
Unfortunately most know-nothing computer users expect it to work out of the
box. What open-source alternative is there that gives the same kind of
scriptable interaction? The merciless MNG didn't turn out to be much of an
adversary did it? 
2:23 p.m.
On Sat, 2006-09-23 at 11:20 -0400, Lee Revell wrote:
On Sat, 2006-09-23 at 15:40 +0700, Patrick Shirkey
wrote:
The horrible AV sync has nothing to do with machine speed, and
everything to do with Flash 7 sucking on Linux.
They claim that Flash 9 will be fixed, as it uses ALSA I believe... And
I expect we'll get it when Windows users are at about version 12 or so.
Dana
tim hall wrote:
What's wrong with embedded .mpg or .wmv, other than being easy to
download (or "pirate" if you talk to the content people). Those work on
a much wider range of OSes than Flash.
For example, why in the hell do YouTube and Google Video default to
flash? Embedded .mpg would be MUCH more user friendly.
Flash does not work at all on my Linux system (terrible AV sync,
probably because my machine is slow), but I can watch DVD-quality .mpgs
and .avis without dropping a frame.
Lee On Friday 22 September 2006 15:03, Lee Revell was
like:
The paradigm that Flash represents is great but the way they license it
and continue to keep it private when it is very obviously a monopoly is
evil.
It's still the most effective way to get high quality animation or video
into a webpage and you know that 95% of the browsers in the world
support it. Compared to embedded mpg, wmv or rm... I would call it "sheer idiocy" and yet
another reason Flash is evil.
Yeah, Flash is evil.
Unfortunately most know-nothing computer users expect it to work out of the
box. What open-source alternative is there that gives the same kind of
scriptable interaction? The merciless MNG didn't turn out to be much of an
adversary did it?
2:37 p.m.
On Sat, 2006-09-23 at 12:17 -0400, Dana Olson wrote:
The horrible AV sync has nothing to do with machine
speed, and
everything to do with Flash 7 sucking on Linux.
That's what I always thought, but this has come up on other sites and a
lot of Linux users report that YouTube is usable for them...
Lee
3:13 p.m.
On Sat Sep 23, 2006 at 12:38:45PM -0400, Lee Revell wrote:
On Sat, 2006-09-23 at 12:17 -0400, Dana Olson wrote:
YouTube is usable for me, but only because of a one-line greasemonkey script i wrote to
replace the flash object with a mplayerplug-in/mozplugger compatible <embed>:
http://whats-your.name/flashsucks right click "Install This User Script" on
youtubewoflash.user.js or youtubedownload.user.js
i suspect the reason behind everyone using flash is, the only format that would likely
work on all platform-specific media player plugins is mpg, (good luck usinc wmv9 on mac,
or quicktime h264 with windows media player by default, and we know they wont go anywhere
near xvid or theora), whereas flash is installed 'everywhere' and its codec is
better than mpg.
as visual media moves to the web, the linux user is effectively shut off from this
experience, or at least given a back-row seat..
The horrible AV sync has nothing to do with
machine speed, and
everything to do with Flash 7 sucking on Linux.
That's what I always thought, but this has come up on other sites and a
lot of Linux users report that YouTube is usable for them...
Lee
4:58 p.m.
On Sat, 2006-09-23 at 17:13 +0000, carmen wrote:
On Sat Sep 23, 2006 at 12:38:45PM -0400, Lee Revell
wrote:
I'll try it but the mplayer plugin doesn't work reliably for me either.
About 75% of the time it buffers then just sits there with a grey box
and never plays. Occasionally it works if I hit "play" but most of the
time I have to resort to right clicking and "copy URL", then run
"gmplayer $URL" in a terminal which works *every time*.
On Sat, 2006-09-23 at 12:17 -0400, Dana Olson
wrote:
YouTube is usable for me, but only because of a one-line greasemonkey script i wrote to
replace the flash object with a mplayerplug-in/mozplugger compatible <embed>:
http://whats-your.name/flashsucks right click "Install This User Script" on
youtubewoflash.user.js or youtubedownload.user.js
The horrible AV sync has nothing to do with
machine speed, and
everything to do with Flash 7 sucking on Linux.
That's what I always thought, but this has come up on other sites and a
lot of Linux users report that YouTube is usable for them...
i suspect the reason behind everyone using flash is, the only format that would likely
work on all platform-specific media player plugins is mpg, (good luck usinc wmv9 on mac,
or quicktime h264 with windows media player by default, and we know they wont go anywhere
near xvid or theora), whereas flash is installed 'everywhere' and its codec is
better than mpg.
Yeah, I sometimes forget that WMV still doesn't work reliably on Macs.
But doesn't MPEG-4 work on every platform?
Lee
25 Sep
25 Sep
8:46 a.m.
--- Lee Revell <rlrevell(a)joe-job.com> wrote:
I'll try it but the mplayer plugin doesn't
work
reliably for me either.
About 75% of the time it buffers then just sits
there with a grey box
and never plays. Occasionally it works if I hit
"play" but most of the
time I have to resort to right clicking and "copy
URL", then run
"gmplayer $URL" in a terminal which works *every
time*.
It looks like you're lacking some MPlayer codecs. Care
to share one URL that does not work with it? I have
near 100% success with MPlayer plug-in.
__________________________________________________
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12:07 p.m.
On Mon, 2006-09-25 at 03:46 -0700, Drucer Ninetynine wrote:
--- Lee Revell <rlrevell(a)joe-job.com> wrote:
Nope, it can't be missing codecs because I have 100% success with
"gmplayer $URL" in a terminal. It's a buggy interaction between the
browser and the plugin.
Lee
I'll try it but the mplayer plugin
doesn't work
reliably for me either.
About 75% of the time it buffers then just sits
there with a grey box
and never plays. Occasionally it works if I hit
"play" but most of the
time I have to resort to right clicking and "copy
URL", then run
"gmplayer $URL" in a terminal which works *every
time*.
It looks like you're lacking some MPlayer codecs. Care
to share one URL that does not work with it? I have
near 100% success with MPlayer plug-in. 
12:21 p.m.
On Mon, Sep 25, 2006 at 10:07:34AM -0400, Lee Revell wrote:
On Mon, 2006-09-25 at 03:46 -0700, Drucer Ninetynine
wrote:
I've observed the same thing, FWIW.
--
Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
--- Lee Revell <rlrevell(a)joe-job.com>
wrote:
Nope, it can't be missing codecs because I have 100% success with
"gmplayer $URL" in a terminal. It's a buggy interaction between the
browser and the plugin. I'll try it but the mplayer plugin
doesn't work
reliably for me either.
About 75% of the time it buffers then just sits
there with a grey box
and never plays. Occasionally it works if I hit
"play" but most of the
time I have to resort to right clicking and "copy
URL", then run
"gmplayer $URL" in a terminal which works *every
time*.
It looks like you're lacking some MPlayer codecs. Care
to share one URL that does not work with it? I have
near 100% success with MPlayer plug-in.
2:28 p.m.
--- Lee Revell <rlrevell(a)joe-job.com> wrote:
Nope, it can't be missing codecs because I have
100%
success with
"gmplayer $URL" in a terminal. It's a buggy
interaction between the
browser and the plugin.
You can probably find out what the problem is if you
try "mplayer $URL" in terminal window. You should see
the error message.
__________________________________________________
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2:47 p.m.
On Mon, 2006-09-25 at 09:28 -0700, Drucer Ninetynine wrote:
--- Lee Revell <rlrevell(a)joe-job.com> wrote:
Did you read my original post?
The problem is that mplayer browser plugin does not work (I just get a
grey box). "mplayer $URL" in a terminal window works perfectly every
time. Ergo, the bug must be specific to the browser plugin.
Lee
Nope, it can't be missing codecs because I
have 100%
success with
"gmplayer $URL" in a terminal. It's a buggy
interaction between the
browser and the plugin.
You can probably find out what the problem is if you
try "mplayer $URL" in terminal window. You should see
the error message.
5:04 p.m.
--- Lee Revell <rlrevell(a)joe-job.com> wrote:
Did you read my original post?
The problem is that mplayer browser plugin does not
work (I just get a
grey box). "mplayer $URL" in a terminal window
works perfectly every
time. Ergo, the bug must be specific to the browser
plugin.
Chill out man :) Just trying to help. I believe you,
it must be a problem with the plugin. However, I'd
still like to see one URL that does not work with it
and test it with my own system.
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23 Sep
23 Sep
3:48 p.m.
On Saturday 23 September 2006 11:20, Lee Revell wrote:
What's wrong with embedded .mpg or .wmv, other
than being easy
to download (or "pirate" if you talk to the content people).
Those work on a much wider range of OSes than Flash.
MPEG-1 would be unwatchable at the bandwidth Youtube uses. WMV
using WMP codecs is only playable on my Linux box if I pirate
some Windows code. (I'd settle for embedded MPEG-4 AVI's,
though.) Flash sucks, but it is here and it's legal, even if
it's not free software.
Whoever said Flash was just a bunch of XML in a container like
SVG was wrong, I think; that's like what Flash would have been
like 10 years ago if XML had been around. Actionscript may just
be Javascript, but the objects it exposes start with vectors and
animation and go way off from there. SVG also has no sound
support, and since this thread started by talking about sound
sync problems in Flash, it's clearly not a suitable replacement
as things stand now. That SMIL or whatever it was a couple
years ago that was supposed to provide audio capabilities
through Javascript doesn't seem to have taken off, to the point
where people are even using Flash just to stream MP3's.
There will be a day when all browsers will have SVG, canvas
support, inbuilt access to video codecs or a standardized
interface to video player plugins, audio support, some kind of
synchronization framework, and a development environment that
entices designers to use all those technologies together, like
Flash has now. Probably it'll have a catchy acronym like Ajax
to sell it as well. That day will be far enough in the future
that I can't see it.
In the meantime, I look forward to the eventual maturity of
Gnash.
Rob
4:09 p.m.
On Saturday 23 September 2006 16:20, Lee Revell was like:
On Sat, 2006-09-23 at 15:40 +0700, Patrick Shirkey
wrote:
.mpg is great for video. I agree that flash players for other media suck.
However .mpg doesn't provide animated vector graphics with scriptable
interactivity, unless I've missed something.
tim hall wrote:
What's wrong with embedded .mpg or .wmv, other than being easy to
download (or "pirate" if you talk to the content people). Those work on
a much wider range of OSes than Flash.
For example, why in the hell do YouTube and Google Video default to
flash? Embedded .mpg would be MUCH more user friendly. On Friday 22 September 2006 15:03, Lee Revell was
like:
The paradigm that Flash represents is great but the way they license it
and continue to keep it private when it is very obviously a monopoly is
evil.
It's still the most effective way to get high quality animation or video
into a webpage and you know that 95% of the browsers in the world
support it. Compared to embedded mpg, wmv or rm... I would call it "sheer idiocy" and yet
another reason Flash is evil.
Yeah, Flash is evil.
Unfortunately most know-nothing computer users expect it to work out of
the box. What open-source alternative is there that gives the same kind
of scriptable interaction? The merciless MNG didn't turn out to be much
of an adversary did it? Flash does not work at all on my Linux system
(terrible AV sync,
probably because my machine is slow), but I can watch DVD-quality .mpgs
and .avis without dropping a frame.
Flash works on my system, but it drops frames all over the place. Sure would
be nice to break the monopoly. I'll dream on for now. :)
--
cheers,
tim hall
http://glastonburymusic.org.uk/tim
We are the people We've been waiting for.
4:20 p.m.
On Sat, 2006-09-23 at 19:09 +0100, tim hall wrote:
.mpg is great for video. I agree that flash players
for other media
suck. However .mpg doesn't provide animated vector graphics with
scriptable interactivity, unless I've missed something.
Yes but who really cares about Flash games? YouTube is THE killer app
of the web right now and Linux users are locked out.
Lee
4:45 p.m.
On Saturday 23 September 2006 19:22, Lee Revell was like:
Yes but who really cares about Flash games?
My 11 year old son. I have a serious sys admin challenge on my hands here.
:)
--
cheers,
tim hall
http://glastonburymusic.org.uk/tim
We are the people We've been waiting for.
25 Sep
25 Sep
3:40 p.m.
On Sat, Sep 23, 2006 at 02:22:08PM -0400, Lee Revell wrote:
On Sat, 2006-09-23 at 19:09 +0100, tim hall wrote:
I use a perl script called youtube-dl to grab video from youtube and
then watch them in Mplayer. It is ugly, but on the upside, it doesn't
require flash player, which I feel has a heavy destablizing effect.
Plus, mplayer is better at supporting alsa or jack than flash player
is.
--
Joshua D. Boyd
jdboyd(a)jdboyd.net
http://www.jdboyd.net/
http://www.joshuaboyd.org/
.mpg is great for video. I agree that flash
players for other media
suck. However .mpg doesn't provide animated vector graphics with
scriptable interactivity, unless I've missed something.
Yes but who really cares about Flash games? YouTube is THE killer app
of the web right now and Linux users are locked out.
5:01 p.m.
--- Joshua Boyd <jdboyd(a)jdboyd.net> wrote:
I use a perl script called youtube-dl to grab video
from youtube and
then watch them in Mplayer. It is ugly, but on the
upside, it doesn't
require flash player, which I feel has a heavy
destablizing effect.
Plus, mplayer is better at supporting alsa or jack
than flash player
is.
Would you mind sharing that Perl script?! I'd love to
have it!
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7:08 p.m.
On Mon, Sep 25, 2006 at 12:01:35PM -0700, Drucer Ninetynine wrote:
--- Joshua Boyd <jdboyd(a)jdboyd.net> wrote:
> I use a perl script called youtube-dl to grab video from youtube
> and then watch them in Mplayer.
Me too. youtube-dl+mplayer rocks!
Would you mind sharing that Perl script?! I'd love
to have it!
It's at http://www.arrakis.es/~rggi3/youtube-dl/ . (It's actually a
Python script.) Make sure you get the latest one. Inevitably it
breaks whenever Youtube change their interface, but so far it has
tracked such changes pretty promptly.
Jeremy Henty
26 Sep
26 Sep
3:38 p.m.
On Mon, Sep 25, 2006 at 12:01:35PM -0700, Drucer Ninetynine wrote:
--- Joshua Boyd <jdboyd(a)jdboyd.net> wrote:
Whoops, it is a python script, not perl. I got it from:
http://www.arrakis.es/~rggi3/youtube-dl/
It requires python 2.4, which is a bit on the new side, but already
installed on many systems.
--
Joshua D. Boyd
jdboyd(a)jdboyd.net
http://www.jdboyd.net/
http://www.joshuaboyd.org/
I use a perl script called youtube-dl to grab
video
from youtube and
then watch them in Mplayer. It is ugly, but on the
upside, it doesn't
require flash player, which I feel has a heavy
destablizing effect.
Plus, mplayer is better at supporting alsa or jack
than flash player
is.
Would you mind sharing that Perl script?! I'd love to
have it! 
27 Sep
27 Sep
6:57 a.m.
On Tue, Sep 26, 2006 at 01:23:03PM -0400, Joshua Boyd wrote:
On Mon, Sep 25, 2006 at 12:01:35PM -0700, Drucer
Ninetynine wrote:
It requires python 2.4, which is a bit on
the new side, but already
installed on many systems.
Python 2.5 was just released so I don't think we can really call 2.4
'new' any more. :)
Chris.
-------------------
chris(a)mccormick.cx
http://mccormick.cx
1:38 p.m.
On Wed, Sep 27, 2006 at 04:50:10PM +0800, Chris McCormick wrote:
On Tue, Sep 26, 2006 at 01:23:03PM -0400, Joshua Boyd
wrote:
It is new as long as OSX 10.3.9 is common.
--
Joshua D. Boyd
jdboyd(a)jdboyd.net
http://www.jdboyd.net/
http://www.joshuaboyd.org/
On Mon, Sep 25, 2006 at 12:01:35PM -0700, Drucer
Ninetynine wrote:
It requires python 2.4, which is a bit on
the new side, but already
installed on many systems.
Python 2.5 was just released so I don't think we can really call 2.4
'new' any more. :)
25 Sep
25 Sep
9:52 p.m.
On Monday 25 September 2006 13:25, Joshua Boyd wrote:
I use a perl script called youtube-dl to grab video
from
youtube and then watch them in Mplayer. It is ugly, but on
the upside, it doesn't require flash player, which I feel has
I do the same thing, but using Greasemonkey and the following
script:
http://www.linuxin.dk/forum/index.php?ops=linuxin&fmode=vis&visid=2…
(about halfway down....)
There are others too, if you google for greasemonkey youtube. It
seamlessly replaces the Flash applet on the Youtube page with a
download link for the .flv file. Of course, you need the
greasemonkey extension for Firefox (I think I heard it's
available for Opera too.)
Rob
6692
days inactive
6697
days old
linux-audio-user@lists.linuxaudio.org
29 comments
12 participants
participants (12)
-
carmen -
Chris McCormick -
Dana Olson -
Drucer Ninetynine -
Jeremy Henty -
Joshua Boyd -
Lee Revell -
Patrick Shirkey -
Paul Winkler -
Rob -
Thorsten Wilms -
tim hall