Since Artemiy is obviously a member of the oss community - making many free contributions himself, and offering a very inexpensive product as well, I didn't really view this as spam - but yes, perhaps this list wasn't the appropriate place to promote it. What I took exception to was the censure he seemed to be receiving for asking money for his product.. :) Until I am much more code-savvy and knowledgeable about electronics, I'm afraid 'OT' is mostly all I can contribute. But this community is centered around certain philosophies bearing on copyright, free software, free music, etc., and these philosphies need to be periodically revisited and subject to vigorous debate. We're obviously not 'there' yet with it all - lot's of issues still need to be worked out. 'Reproduction' is not the only cost factor. There is a considerable cost in *production* that must also be taken into account. Computer hardware and high-quality audio hardware are not cheap, nor are fine musical instruments. Neither are the equipment and supplies needed to manufacture and ship your own CDs, and neither is the cost of hosting a website, maintaining a merchant account, etc. Costs of production/reproduction aside, there remains the intrinsic worth of the creative work itself. Even were it to cost nothing to produce, a beautiful work of art still holds value simply for what it is. Agreed. Yup - no better advertising than word-of-mouth. I think so too, but as I said - we're not there yet. As for tipping, it is a good approach, but doesn't seem to be working very well yet. Perhaps that is due to the fact that we don't have what you call a tipping 'economy'. I wish very much that I could just tip for electricity, internet access, web hosting, food, shelter, etc., etc. Tipping is an intermediate stage between a full-scale currency-based economy and a barter-based one. Believe me, I despise currency probably more than anyone here. I wrote a treatise against the concept of 'money' and in favor of barter when I was 6 years old, and have not altered my views about it significantly since then. :). (However I don't really see how technological innovations such as we now enjoy could have come about without it). Wherever did you get the idea that I wasn't taking tipping into consideration? I was taking issue with the concept that music or software must be *free* as opposed to receiving reasonable remuneration for one's effort. Tipping *is* a form of remuneration. It obviously is not working well at this time. If someone is making a modest living off of tips, I would really love to hear about it and learn their techniques. I think Ardour is a perfect case in point. As I understand it, Paul has received little more than $2K in donations - mostly from *one* individual - vs the $60K+ of his own he has put into development. He had to go to work part or full-time (I'm not sure which) to make up for the lack of support in the way of donations. I don't think anyone here questions the value of this great software and its importance to the community, but 'tipping' doesn't seem to be working here, does it? This is not right. It's actually worse than that: many people think that if you don't sell your work, it is because it is not *worth* anything. I know of many cases in the real world, where people selling various forms of arts and crafts actually experienced an *increase* in sales when they raised their prices considerably. There are some very obtuse mindsets at work here - brand-name snobbery, and the like. Ah - another misunderstanding there, I think. I was not equating what I perceive to be 'audiophile' quality of music with its monetary worth. There is the music itself - the content which has intrinsic worth, no matter how poor the production quality may be. And it is precisely this value which seems to be getting ignored in all this discussion of 'cost of reproduction', etc. The creative work has value in and of itself, regardless of the tangible form it takes or means by which it is distributed. That is utterly absurd, but ubiquitous in this society. It is precisely the type of shallow mindset I was referring to earlier. Yes! - if there is not an actual 'profit', then it is still 'free' from the producer's standpoint. I doubt anyone is making a living from this yet, but some bands are having varying degrees of success selling their CDs. We did best just selling them at live performances - I'd say 90% of our CD sales have been at gigs. Not sure I'm following your reasoning here. This would certainly undermine the idea that their 'limited artifacts' have some enhanced value, but doesn't make them totally worthless. That would be the same reasoning adopted by the magazines that wouldn't listen to your music once they realized you were offering some of it for free. We sell our music both in CD form and through iTunes and other paid-download sites. I see nothing wrong with this, except that what we make from the downloads is negligible. But we'll take it - not any different from taking 'tips' for the music. I think that burning the master audio files directly to the marketed CD-Rs - if they are of high quality, like Mitsui - can yield a superior sounding product vs. pressed CDs - but that is due to my perception of generational degradation involved going from the original masters to the final pressed product. (Don't want to debate that one again here. :) ) The durability of this media is another matter altogether, but even pressed CDs have a limited life-span. I've even heard of peoples CDs deteriorating due to some kind of plastic-eating fungus! Not just the bits - what the bits represent - the artistic content matters. Not all compositions are created equal. That is why Pat Metheny can still sell his "New Chautauqua" CD for $18 even though it's 27 years old. I don't think there yet exists a media which has virtually 'eternal' archival qualities. Perhaps when we can learn to encode data into crystal lattices, or as Arthur C. Clarke envisioned, lattices of light? In short, I think tipping *is* a good step on the way to reforming the way in which artists, programmers, etc. - maybe everyone - are compensated for their work, but it must all be in the context of a more general reformation in how goods and services are exchanged and paid for. Removing the middleman whenever possible is a very good way to reduce the costs of delivering goods and hence reducing the costs needing to be recouped by the producer. That is one of the things the internet makes possible. Those who are willing to adjust their lifestyle to a more modest, sustainable, and self-sufficient one will certainly be in the best position to take advantage of these new models of trade and exchange. And I sincerely hope it will become possible someday for technological innovation and specialization to exist without the need for currency. - Maluvia