26 Feb
2007
26 Feb
'07
5:16 p.m.
Hi!
I'm working on concepts for a new export dialog in Ardour.
I would like to hear of your needs regarding final mixdown
/export using any software, not just Ardour.
- Do you export once in the end, or do you do tests in
between?
- Do you work with stereo and/or multi-channel?
- What are your targets: CD, DVD, Web?
- File-types: WAV, Flac, Ogg, MP3?
- Bits and sampling rates you need?
- Do you or would you like to export to several formats at
once? If yes, which exactly?
- Do you know of outstanding solutions in any application?
- What problems do you run into?
- Wishlist items?
- If you use Jamin, do you feed it with multitrack material
or rather with mixdowns?
Cheers,
Thorsten Wilms
26 Feb
26 Feb
5:42 p.m.
On Mon, Feb 26, 2007 at 10:15:38PM +0100, Thorsten Wilms wrote:
Hi!
I'm working on concepts for a new export dialog in Ardour.
I would like to hear of your needs regarding final mixdown
/export using any software, not just Ardour.
- Do you export once in the end, or do you do tests in
between?
usually near the end of the project, but it usually takes multiple
exports before I get it right.
- Do you work with stereo and/or multi-channel?
always stereo.
- What are your targets: CD, DVD, Web?
CD and web.
- File-types: WAV, Flac, Ogg, MP3?
Currently just WAV, but I would use all of the above.
- Bits and sampling rates you need?
so far I only export to 16/44.1
- Do you or would you like to export to several
formats at
once? If yes, which exactly?
FLAC MP3
- Do you know of outstanding solutions in any
application?
nope
- If you use Jamin, do you feed it with multitrack
material
or rather with mixdowns?
mixdowns only. And I don't really like to run jamin and ardour at
the same time, that's often too much work for my computer.
--
Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
5:49 p.m.
On 2/26/07, Thorsten Wilms <t_w_(a)freenet.de> wrote:
I'm working on concepts for a new export dialog in
Ardour.
I would like to hear of your needs regarding final mixdown
/export using any software, not just Ardour.
- Do you export once in the end, or do you do tests in
between?
I do tests in between, usually so I can send various mix tests to the
client for feedback.
- Do you work with stereo and/or multi-channel?
Just stereo
- What are your targets: CD, DVD, Web?
CD, sometimes web
- File-types: WAV, Flac, Ogg, MP3?
WAV
- Bits and sampling rates you need?
16/44.1
- Do you or would you like to export to several
formats at
once? If yes, which exactly?
Not really a big deal, I export to WAV and then convert to what I need
later, if needed, using lame or oggenc or similar.
- Do you know of outstanding solutions in any
application?
- What problems do you run into?
- Wishlist items?
*shrug* None, really
- If you use Jamin, do you feed it with multitrack
material
or rather with mixdowns?
I just use a stereo mixdown with Jamin.
-- Brett
------------------------------------------------------------
"In the rhythm of music a secret is hidden;
If I were to divulge it, it would overturn the world."
-- Jelaleddin Rumi
6:46 p.m.
Thorsten Wilms wrote:
Hi!
I'm working on concepts for a new export dialog in Ardour.
cool!
I would like to hear of your needs regarding final
mixdown
/export using any software, not just Ardour.
I know I'm the trouble maker, but if you ask..
- Do you export once in the end, or do you do tests in
between?
export once when finished; then usually bounce the same with different
export-options..
Sometimes there's a preliminary mixdown or rare "exchange-exports"
(bounce all tracks and re-import as new project)
- Do you work with stereo and/or multi-channel?
stereo and 5.1 (in my case: 6 mono output tracks)
- What are your targets: CD, DVD, Web?
- File-types: WAV, Flac, Ogg, MP3?
AIFF - the next man is a mac ;-)
- Bits and sampling rates you need?
48000kHz - 16 and 24 bits.
- Do you or would you like to export to several
formats at
once?
yes.
If yes, which exactly?
i usually export 16 bit and a 24 bit AIFFS @48kHz
sometimes various wav file formats for easy-exchange, hard to be
specific here.
dep. on project: lame helps me with 192kbit/s high-quality mp3 and
oggenc does the rest.
For rare CD productions: obviously 16bit, 44.1kHz wav :o
- Do you know of outstanding solutions in any
application?
- What problems do you run into?
- Wishlist items?
It would be nice to have an export mode to glue mastered [ardour]
sessions together for making seamless continuously playing CDs of
separate song-sessions! (select overlay/x-fade tracks? , graphical cue
edit ?, no more hand-tweaking .toc files!) - there's surely some
software to aid that purpose already that you can build on.
Also it would be great if the A/V offset could be (optionally) written
in the file's header when exporting eg. WAV files. - I've made a similar
feat. request on ardour-dev and there's something already in the queue
for importing file's offsets - but that's not due before the
post-MIDI-merge.
- If you use Jamin, do you feed it with multitrack
material
or rather with mixdowns?
i rarely use jamin and if i do then as last stage post ardour's master
out (after the mixdown). - I sometimes use jack-rack for multitrack
material in a bus, works just fine.
27 Feb
27 Feb
5:11 a.m.
On Mon, Feb 26, 2007 at 11:45:34PM +0100, Robin Gareus wrote:
That's what I have been doing, too.
Do you create both stereo and 6 x mono from the same sessions?
How do you go about creating 6 mono output tracks?
Do you see an alternative to 6 mono output tracks?
- Do you
export once in the end, or do you do tests in
between?
export once when finished; then usually bounce the same with different
export-options.. Sometimes there's a preliminary mixdown or rare
"exchange-exports"
(bounce all tracks and re-import as new project)
Please explain why and how.
- Do you work
with stereo and/or multi-channel?
stereo and 5.1 (in my case: 6 mono output tracks)
> - Wishlist items?
It would be nice to have an export mode to glue
mastered [ardour]
sessions together for making seamless continuously playing CDs of
separate song-sessions! (select overlay/x-fade tracks? , graphical cue
edit ?, no more hand-tweaking .toc files!) - there's surely some
software to aid that purpose already that you can build on.
So basically it would start with chaining a bunch of mixdowns?
Don't you need a timeline and all the options given by Ardour's editor?
Also it would be great if the A/V offset could be
(optionally) written
in the file's header when exporting eg. WAV files. - I've made a similar
feat. request on ardour-dev and there's something already in the queue
for importing file's offsets - but that's not due before the
post-MIDI-merge.
There's a standard for A/V offsets in WAV headers?
What would be needed on the GUI side, format, number of digits ...?
Thank you. Thanks also to everyone who replied so far!
I hope there will be more :)
--
Thorsten Wilms
6:24 a.m.
Thorsten Wilms wrote:
Do you create both stereo and 6 x mono from the same sessions?
no not with ardour, its either one or the other.
multi-tracks masters: I usually prepare the session, bounce all tracks
and do panning + automation somewhere else where I pay for the
Dolby-Logo and surround-studio-monitor :)
there is software to make stereo from 5.1, - it just eludes me.
actually I'm no longer sure it this should be a feature of the export
dialog, anyway..
my first idea was indeed a popup-timeline, with whole ardour-sessions
(songs) as blocks in a timeline to:
- nudge whole session(s)
- concatenate session(s)
then one can use the merged session for all kinds of flexible x-fades
and put location markers in the timeline for CD-creation.
Most of the time it comes down to the following transitions:
* one of the song fades in/out -> I usually don't fade all the tracks,
but keep a few of them and to fade later..
* both songs have an abrupt end or beginning, there's usually one or two
extra tracks added to the session staring a few seconds before the end.
it actually supports cue's, chuncks and even playlists:
eg. http://www.sonicspot.com/guide/wavefiles.html
- but not that many players know about that.
On Mon, Feb 26, 2007 at 11:45:34PM +0100, Robin Gareus
wrote:
That's what I have been doing, too.
easy, to import it into other DAW systems. - eg. have a friend work with
the same material.
possible issue: stereo-tracks. usually I use all mono-tracks in ardour.
(sometimes I'm annoyed that I can't pre-insert stereo-effects, but it
retains flexibility to export/reimport the timeline - bounce all tracks
sometimes with sometimes w/o automation & effects.
i rarely have more that 16 tracks, so I do it by hand,
sed(1) does re-import - but thats a whole other story :)
This scheme is waste of hard-disk /tmp space, though. who cares?
- Do you
export once in the end, or do you do tests in
between?
export once when finished; then usually bounce the same with different
export-options.. Sometimes there's a preliminary mixdown or
rare "exchange-exports"
(bounce all tracks and re-import as new project)
Please explain why and how. - Do you work with stereo and/or multi-channel?
stereo and 5.1 (in my case: 6 mono output tracks) How do you go about creating 6 mono output tracks?
Do you see an alternative to 6 mono output tracks?
AC3 ? :-)
- mmh no not really. I can give each mono file an appropriate name that
any technician will understand.
I dunno about standards that media-players support. - but it comes down
to naming or arranging jack/alsa ports (-> what does mplayer do if it
detects N audio channels? )
> - Wishlist items?
It would be nice to have an export mode to glue
mastered [ardour]
sessions together for making seamless continuously playing CDs of
separate song-sessions! (select overlay/x-fade tracks? , graphical cue
edit ?, no more hand-tweaking .toc files!) - there's surely some
software to aid that purpose already that you can build on.
So basically it would start with chaining a bunch of mixdowns? Don't you need a timeline and all the options
given by Ardour's editor?
to gain full edit power, yes. for the common cases sth. like the x-fade
dialog might suffice!
a CD-build dialog might be nice, that let's one re-arrange the
track-order on the CD..
the only time I did this before, I exported 3 tracks to stereo wav,
launched rezound to concatenate the files and make the fade-overs.
CD.toc was generated with vi :)
rezound offers great loop-playing features that come in handy when
positioning the sessions!
Also it would
be great if the A/V offset could be (optionally) written
in the file's header when exporting eg. WAV files. - I've made a similar
feat. request on ardour-dev and there's something already in the queue
for importing file's offsets - but that's not due before the
post-MIDI-merge.
There's a standard for A/V offsets in WAV headers? What would be needed on the GUI side, format, number
of digits ...?
dunno, maybe only a radiobutton:
* no wav chucks //< current default
* one wav chuck with global-session offset //< what I'd like sometimes
* make a new wav chuck on every location/marker //< ???
26 Feb
26 Feb
6:59 p.m.
Le 26 Feb à 22:15, Thorsten Wilms ecrivait:
- Do you export once in the end, or do you do tests in
between?
I make a few tests.
- Do you work with stereo and/or multi-channel?
Stereo only.
- What are your targets: CD, DVD, Web?
Web and CD
- File-types: WAV, Flac, Ogg, MP3?
Any of them.
- Bits and sampling rates you need?
16/44.1
- Do you or would you like to export to several
formats at
once? If yes, which exactly?
I'd prefer a software which would export perfectly in one format,
and make conversions later with a perfect converter :), rather than
enconter problems when trying to do too many things at once with the same
tool.
- Do you know of outstanding solutions in any
application?
No...
- If you use Jamin, do you feed it with multitrack
material
or rather with mixdowns?
I feed Jamin with all the tracks to record to another stero
track. It's this one that I export.
Thanks in advance for your work,
Y.
27 Feb
27 Feb
4:08 a.m.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Mon, Feb 26, 2007 at 10:15:38PM +0100, Thorsten Wilms wrote:
Hi!
I'm working on concepts for a new export dialog in Ardour.
I would like to hear of your needs regarding final mixdown
/export using any software, not just Ardour.
- Do you export once in the end, or do you do tests in
between?
I used to export mixes after every session, now I just do it when I'm either done with
a peice or I think I'l be leaving it alone for a while.
- Do you work with stereo and/or multi-channel?
Stereo.
- What are your targets: CD, DVD, Web?
Web. But I have a script to resample to 44.1 for CD.
- File-types: WAV, Flac, Ogg, MP3?
WAV for my own personal backups, but I post OGG's. On Archive.org I like to post
FLAC's.
- Bits and sampling rates you need?
I do 48Khz, 32-bit float-- the JACK native format.
- Do you or would you like to export to several
formats at
once? If yes, which exactly?
I have a script to do the conversions for me. It forks so it is
"multi-processor-friendly" for my hardware.
- Do you know of outstanding solutions in any
application?
Not sure what this means?
- What problems do you run into?
Biggest problem I have is that FreeBoB currently doesn't support freewheeling mode.
So, I can't use Ardour to export my sessions. I have to use jack_capture, then open
the file in ReZound (which *sucks* becuase it's apparently not RT-safe), edit out the
silence at beginning and end of the file, then save it.
- Wishlist items?
Yeah, an audio editor for Linux which works with JACK in RT-mode. Sweep crashes jackd,
audacity isn't JACK-capable, and ReZound is not RT-capable.
- If you use Jamin, do you feed it with multitrack material
or rather with mixdowns?
I haven't played wih JAMin yet but it looks very very powerful. My peices are mostly
softsynth based and don't have vocals or much guitar or other live instruments. If
they did, I'd probably need JAMin on the final mixes.
So far, my mixes sound good to me on my equipment and on various people's desktop
PC's and laptop speakers, iPods, etc, which is where they're most likely to be
listened to anyway.
- -ken
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5:32 a.m.
On Tue, Feb 27, 2007 at 12:07:40AM -0800, Ken Restivo wrote:
If you know of means of exporting in any DAW that go beyond of
what one would expect / that are particulary clever in some way
...
Heh, you know choice/fragmentation is our strength ;)
- Do you know
of outstanding solutions in any application?
Not sure what this means? > - What problems do you run into?
Biggest problem I have is that FreeBoB currently
doesn't support
freewheeling mode. So, I can't use Ardour to export my sessions.
I have to use jack_capture, then open the file in ReZound (which
*sucks* becuase it's apparently not RT-safe), edit out the silence
at beginning and end of the file, then save it.
I would be hesistant to add a Freewheeling checkbox to the export
dialog. Can this be expected to be fixed in FreeBoB any time soon?
I wonder how many people are affected.
- Wishlist
items?
Yeah, an audio editor for Linux which works with JACK in RT-mode.
Sweep crashes jackd, audacity isn't JACK-capable, and ReZound is
not RT-capable. I haven't played wih JAMin yet but it looks very
very powerful.
My peices are mostly softsynth based and don't have vocals or much
guitar or other live instruments. If they did, I'd probably need
JAMin on the final mixes.
It is great and easy to use after you played with each parameter to
see what happens.
It's not just for increasing loudness, it can bring out details.
Doesn't matter if the material is softsynth-based or not.
Thank you.
--
Thorsten Wilms
28 Feb
28 Feb
12:42 p.m.
Thorsten Wilms wrote:
On Tue, Feb 27, 2007 at 12:07:40AM -0800, Ken Restivo
wrote:
If you know of means of exporting in any DAW that go beyond of
what one would expect / that are particulary clever in some way
...
This problem is fixed.
Pieter
- Do you
know of outstanding solutions in any application?
Not sure what this means? > - What problems do you run into?
Biggest problem I have is that FreeBoB currently
doesn't support
freewheeling mode. So, I can't use Ardour to export my sessions.
I have to use jack_capture, then open the file in ReZound (which
*sucks* becuase it's apparently not RT-safe), edit out the silence
at beginning and end of the file, then save it.
I would be hesistant to add a Freewheeling checkbox to the export
dialog. Can this be expected to be fixed in FreeBoB any time soon?
I wonder how many people are affected. 
27 Feb
27 Feb
5 a.m.
Hiho,
On Monday 26 February 2007 22:15, Thorsten Wilms wrote:
- Do you export once in the end, or do you do tests
in
between?
probably some tests in between as well.
- Do you work with stereo and/or multi-channel?
yes. Multichannel should be possible for an arbitrary number of channels.
- What are your targets: CD, DVD, Web?
CD, final mix for multichannel performance, DVD, web...
- File-types: WAV, Flac, Ogg, MP3?
WAV, AIFF for cd or performance
ogg for web.
sincerely,
Marije
28 Feb
28 Feb
2:02 p.m.
On Tue, Feb 27, 2007 at 10:00:30AM +0100, nescivi wrote:
Do or would you export to varying channel counts from the same session?
--
Thorsten Wilms
- Do you work
with stereo and/or multi-channel?
yes. Multichannel should be possible for an arbitrary number of channels.
5:09 p.m.
On Wed, Feb 28, 2007 at 03:57:50PM -0500, Thomas Vecchione wrote:
I should really think harder before formulating questions ...
I guess one uses busses for various sub-mixes and selects
from them in the export dialog, then?
If not, please explain how to go about preparing exports
to various channel counts from one session.
--
Thorsten Wilms
Do or would you
export to varying channel counts from the same session?
Yes. 
6:17 p.m.
I guess one uses busses for various sub-mixes and
selects
from them in the export dialog, then?
That is how I currently do it yes.
If not, please explain how to go about preparing
exports
to various channel counts from one session.
However if/when a good surround ambisonics panner get implemented I
would be doing mixdowns to listen to in multiple different spaces with
different loudspeaker setups in each space. Thus it would depend
primarily on the routing in the panner and the loudspeaker locations.
Seablade
27 Feb
27 Feb
10:41 a.m.
Thorsten Wilms wrote:
- Do you export once in the end, or do you do tests in
between?
Usually just at the completion of a project.
- Do you work with stereo and/or multi-channel?
Stereo-only at this time. I'd like to experiment with 4.1, 5.1 and other
possible channelizations.
- What are your targets: CD, DVD, Web?
CD, sometimes Web storage (as Ogg files, preferably).
- File-types: WAV, Flac, Ogg, MP3?
All but FLAC. It's fine, I just don't use it routinely.
- Bits and sampling rates you need?
Just 16/44 for now.
- Do you or would you like to export to several formats
at once? If yes, which exactly?
That could be sweet, to export to all my targets at once (OGG, WAV, and
sometimes MP3).
- Do you know of outstanding solutions in any
application?
No.
- What problems do you run into?
None. Ardour exports to WAV, oggenc and bladeenc do the necessary
conversions without complications.
- Wishlist items?
None now.
- If you use Jamin, do you feed it with multitrack
material or rather with mixdowns?
Both, it depends on the job.
Best,
dp
28 Feb
28 Feb
9:31 a.m.
And a rough tanslation of a mail from a Peter P.,
just to have it all in one thread, as a base for discussions.
--
Good that you take on this weakspot of every DAW
- Do you export once in the end, or do you do tests in
between?
Both, both should be possible as you know a project is never finished
- Do you work with stereo and/or multi-channel?
To exchange projects with others, it's very important to be able to
export a session to several .wav files of the same length
- What are your targets: CD, DVD, Web?
Mainly CD. For DVD you can render 6 separate tracks, everything
else will be done at authoring.
- File-types: WAV, Flac, Ogg, MP3?
WAV, ogg
- Bits and sampling rates you need?
The usual: 44.1 and 48 KHz, 16 bit
- Do you or would you like to export to several formats at
once? If yes, which exactly?
No, that's definitively no necessary as you can do that super-fast
with shell-apps like oggenc and flac.
Much more important is exporting several tracks at once.
- Do you know of outstanding solutions in any application?
No, honestly not. That makes even more important to tackle
this problem.
- What problems do you run into?
Manual muting of single tracks to export them one by one (see above)
---
Thanks to all who responded. Additional input is still welcome.
Next I'm going to work on a specification.
--
Thorsten Wilms
10:51 a.m.
On Mon, Feb 26, 2007 at 10:15:38PM +0100, Thorsten Wilms wrote:
- Do you export once in the end, or do you do tests in
between?
once at end.
- Do you work with stereo and/or multi-channel?
Most of the time I work with many mono sources and mix down to any of
mono, stereo or multi-channel.
- What are your targets: CD, DVD, Web?
Web only.
- File-types: WAV, Flac, Ogg, MP3?
flac and ogg vorbis
- Bits and sampling rates you need?
24 bit 48kHz
- Do you or would you like to export to several
formats at
once? If yes, which exactly?
yes. flac for local archiving, ogg vorbis for publishing.
-Eric Rz.
11:43 a.m.
2007/2/26, Thorsten Wilms <t_w_(a)freenet.de>de>:
I'm working on concepts for a new export dialog in
Ardour.
I got used to the one present in 0.99.x. Only the selection of the
filename could be nicer.
I would like to hear of your needs regarding final
mixdown
/export using any software, not just Ardour.
- Do you export once in the end, or do you do tests in
between?
The musicians want alpha- and beta-versions of the songs in between
studio days, so I create several versions before final mixdown.
- Do you work with stereo and/or multi-channel?
Stereo. I would love to produce surround-music but currently we aim for:
- What are your targets: CD, DVD, Web?
CD and Web for teasers.
- File-types: WAV, Flac, Ogg, MP3?
All of them! ;-)
But I am well satisfied if ardour stays with exporting to wave and
letting conversion and compression be done by other apps.
- Bits and sampling rates you need?
16/44.1 and up.
- Do you or would you like to export to several
formats at
once? If yes, which exactly?
No.
- Do you know of outstanding solutions in any
application?
I didn't use anything else than ardour for some years now.
- What problems do you run into?
hydrogen doesn't support freewheeling. So I have to record the drums
before exporting...
- Wishlist items?
Make hydrogen support freewheeling. :-)
- If you use Jamin, do you feed it with multitrack
material
or rather with mixdowns?
It becomes a pre-fader-insert on the master-bus fairly late during
mixing. Or when mastering the cd as whole...
Keep on hacking,
Arnold
--
visit http://www.arnoldarts.de/
---
Wenn man mit Raubkopien Bands wie Brosis oder Britney Spears wirklich
verhindern könnte, würde ich mir noch heute einen Stapel Brenner und
einen Sack Rohlinge kaufen.
6468
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linux-audio-user@lists.linuxaudio.org
18 comments
12 participants
participants (12)
-
Arnold Krille -
Brett W. McCoy -
Dave Phillips -
Eric Dantan Rzewnicki -
Ken Restivo -
nescivi -
Paul Winkler -
Pieter Palmers -
Robin Gareus -
Thomas Vecchione -
Thorsten Wilms -
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