16 Mar
2010
16 Mar
'10
3:13 p.m.
Hi all,
Please excuse the cross-post to LAU and Alsa-User.
I haven't been as involved as much here in the last year as I was
earlier, and I'm on actually leaving anytime soon. However my systems
are RME HDSP 9652 based and it appears that with new machines and the
more-or-less forced move to Windows 7 RME has required a flash
firmware update that will make my systems incompatible with Alsa going
forward. This makes me sad, but with no real continuing development
happening for these RME cards in a long, long time (at least none I
know of...) it appears that I will finally become unable to use Alsa
after the next few days.
If anyone knows a way to keep these RME-based machines compatible
with both Windows 7 64-bit as well as Gentoo AMD64/Alsa I would sure
like to hear about it as it finally seems that I no longer can live
with outdated firmware which worked as long as I was running Win XP
32-bit.
I hope this doesn't mean that I end up disappearing completely from
Linux Audio as I love it but without support for these cards I would
certainly be around a lot less.
Thanks in advance for any ideas.
Cheers,
Mark
16 Mar
16 Mar
3:38 p.m.
New subject: HDSP 9652+Win 7 == update flash - bye bye Linux audio & Alsa?
How about forwarding to RME support as well? Nothing can be done to
deal with the firmware upgrade unless RME supplies information about
what they are changing. I'm also interested in how you came to the
knowledge that the firmware upgrade will break ALSA support ...
On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 2:10 PM, Mark Knecht <markknecht(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hi all,
Please excuse the cross-post to LAU and Alsa-User.
4:04 p.m.
New subject: HDSP 9652+Win 7 == update flash - bye bye Linux audio & Alsa?
Paul,
I'd be happy to try to involve RME if there's some real chance that
a Linux developer will really work on the issues. I don't want to try
to pump them up and then not have anyone here to really look at it.
Are you the person that would do this work? You're so busy with Ardour
that for the good of the community you wouldn't be my first choice as
I think this is a smaller issue than Ardour. I know you have used RME
for years although I wasn't aware that you used an HDSP series card,
if you do.
As for breaking compatibility, for a few years now I've had to keep
my HDSP 9652 firmware downgraded to get hdspmixer and hdspconf to
function in Linux. This has meant things like weird clipping light
operation in windows and other junk like that but since I did maybe
65% of my work in Linux I could live with 35% problems in Windows.
I haven't downloaded the RME firmware updater yet but it will tell
me the current version of firmware if it is helpful.
With older hardware going up in smoke I have new machines and
unfortunately you cannot load Win XP on these new machines easily. The
machines do not have floppy drives to load drivers during boot, don't
understand USB well enough to use something else as far as I can tell,
and the XP install disk cannot see the SATA hard drives via new
chipsets so it's all sort of a mess trying to stick with XP. Anyway
that led to Win 7 64-bit pretty quickly, which is working. However
when I got around to trying to load audio drivers I went to the RME
web site and they stated very clearly that the Win 7 drivers require
the newest firmware. I don't blame them. It's probably good stuff, but
it looks like it will finally break compatibility with the 'old
firmware to make Alsa drivers work' construct.
If I'm incorrect about that then I'd love to figure that out.
I'm copying what I think is the relevant portion of the RME readme here.
Thanks,
Mark
<SNIP>
RME Intelligent Audio Solutions
HDSP Series (AES-32, MADI, 9652, 9632, Multiface, Digiface, RPM)
HDSPe Series (PCI, MADI, MADIface, ExpressCard, RayDAT, AES, AIO)
Driver for Windows XP/Vista/7, 32 and 64 Bit
Important information: Driver version 3.083
This is the new HDSP(e) series WDM streaming driver, offering
additional features like WDM streaming, kernel streaming, 64 bit
support and full Vista compatibility. It supports all HDSP and HDSPe
series cards and systems simultaneously. The TCO can be operated with
the HDSP AES-32, the HDSPe PCI/MADI/AES/RayDAT/AIO, but not with the
HDSP 9632.
Notes on the driver
-----------------
The driver requires a new flash/firmware in case driver 2.94 had been
used before. The new firmware and new driver routines offer these
advantages:
- Lower system load on start of data transmission (start of record/playback)
- Better performance on playback. We added a small safety buffer of 32
samples on the playback side. To give some numbers from a typical test
machine, crackling starts at:
Old driver 64 samples 60% 128 samples 70% CPU load
New driver 64 samples 85% 128 samples 90% CPU load
So even if you add the 32 samples to the 64 samples, the new driver
still does a better job than the old one at 128! And the 32 samples
are on the playback side only, so throughput monitoring is even more
attractive. Because of this tremendous improvement we removed the
highest buffer size and replaced it with a 32 sample setting as lowest
setting.
- Secure Record Technique. This driver includes a new scheme for
handling record data. It guarantees all record data to reach the
application even when the computer is blocked with 100% CPU load for a
short time. We think this is a real killer feature, as there is
nothing more important than reliability when doing recordings.
- The driver does not support MME, and will never do. If you need low
latency MME for whatever reason, stay with the old driver. Note that
all older MME software will work with the new driver, but will show
more than 30 ms latency.
- This driver requires a newer version of DIGICheck, version 4.53.
Please download it from the RME website, section Downloads/Add-Ons.
<SNIP>
On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 11:38 AM, Paul Davis <paul(a)linuxaudiosystems.com> wrote:
How about forwarding to RME support as well? Nothing
can be done to
deal with the firmware upgrade unless RME supplies information about
what they are changing. I'm also interested in how you came to the
knowledge that the firmware upgrade will break ALSA support ...
On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 2:10 PM, Mark Knecht <markknecht(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hi all,
Please excuse the cross-post to LAU and Alsa-User.
4:37 p.m.
New subject: HDSP 9652+Win 7 == update flash - bye bye Linux audio & Alsa?
On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 3:02 PM, Mark Knecht <markknecht(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Paul,
I'd be happy to try to involve RME if there's some real chance that
a Linux developer will really work on the issues. I don't want to try
to pump them up and then not have anyone here to really look at it.
Are you the person that would do this work? You're so busy with Ardour
that for the good of the community you wouldn't be my first choice as
I wasn't volunteering. But I do know that there are people who will
make the (apparently) minor tweaks to the driver to make it operate
with the new firmware (although its also very far from clear if any
changes at all are necessary).
I think this is a smaller issue than Ardour. I know
you have used RME
for years although I wasn't aware that you used an HDSP series card,
if you do.
I do.
when I got around to trying to load audio drivers I
went to the RME
web site and they stated very clearly that the Win 7 drivers require
the newest firmware. I don't blame them. It's probably good stuff, but
it looks like it will finally break compatibility with the 'old
firmware to make Alsa drivers work' construct.
that's not clear to me from the material that you quoted. i dealt with
several RME firmware upgrades in the past, and they were trivial to
support. you need to understand that the "firmware" is not actually
firmware at all. its just some data to be loaded into the matrix
mixer.
--p
4:56 p.m.
New subject: HDSP 9652+Win 7 == update flash - bye bye Linux audio & Alsa?
On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 12:37 PM, Paul Davis <paul(a)linuxaudiosystems.com> wrote:
On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 3:02 PM, Mark Knecht
<markknecht(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I have just posted a couple of questions in the RME forums to try and
get some info.
To the best of my knowledge I was/am running firmware (or what ever we
want to call this stuff) version 104 prior to moving the card to the
new machine. It was my understanding that the Linux stuff didn't work
correctly or at all with anything above 104 or 105, and the Win XP
stuff didn't work correctly, but did work, with 104 so I think I
was/am running 104. Not sure yet. I Can go find the emails I'm sure if
there's any question as to why I'm doing this.
I just loaded the newest Win 7 driver and it did find the card. I need
to do a reboot which I cannot do until after the market closes in a
few minutes so I'll see if the current HDSP Win 7 mixer works.
Thanks for your interest and guidance.
Cheers,
Mark
Paul,
I'd be happy to try to involve RME if there's some real chance that
a Linux developer will really work on the issues. I don't want to try
to pump them up and then not have anyone here to really look at it.
Are you the person that would do this work? You're so busy with Ardour
that for the good of the community you wouldn't be my first choice as
I wasn't volunteering. But I do know that there are people who will
make the (apparently) minor tweaks to the driver to make it operate
with the new firmware (although its also very far from clear if any
changes at all are necessary).
I think this is a smaller issue than Ardour. I
know you have used RME
for years although I wasn't aware that you used an HDSP series card,
if you do.
I do.
when I got around to trying to load audio drivers
I went to the RME
web site and they stated very clearly that the Win 7 drivers require
the newest firmware. I don't blame them. It's probably good stuff, but
it looks like it will finally break compatibility with the 'old
firmware to make Alsa drivers work' construct.
that's not clear to me from the material that you quoted. i dealt with
several RME firmware upgrades in the past, and they were trivial to
support. you need to understand that the "firmware" is not actually
firmware at all. its just some data to be loaded into the matrix
mixer.
--p
7:49 p.m.
New subject: HDSP 9652+Win 7 == update flash - bye bye Linux audio & Alsa?
On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 12:53 PM, Mark Knecht <markknecht(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 12:37 PM, Paul Davis
<paul(a)linuxaudiosystems.com> wrote:
As a follow up I have rebooted the machine with the new Win 7 driver
installed and the card is now found but it is not functional with the
most current RME driver. That is not surprising as the driver readme
states I need rev 108 and I'm running 104. The 1st problem would be
that under Win 7 the firmware updater doesn't do anything so at the
moment I couldn't update firmware if I wanted to. On the other hand,
if my memory of this topic is correct rev 104 was the latest version
of firmware that works with _any_ Alsa driver for this card so I still
seem to be headed for trouble.
In the RME forums the basic piece of info I've received so far is just
that the driver has to match up with a specific version of the
firmware and that the current driver requires version 108. If the
Linux driver works (or could be made to work) with 108 then I think
I'd be OK but so far the newest Windows 7 version certainly doesn't
work with 104.
Thanks,
Mark
On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 3:02 PM, Mark Knecht
<markknecht(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I have just posted a couple of questions in the RME forums to try and
get some info.
To the best of my knowledge I was/am running firmware (or what ever we
want to call this stuff) version 104 prior to moving the card to the
new machine. It was my understanding that the Linux stuff didn't work
correctly or at all with anything above 104 or 105, and the Win XP
stuff didn't work correctly, but did work, with 104 so I think I
was/am running 104. Not sure yet. I Can go find the emails I'm sure if
there's any question as to why I'm doing this.
I just loaded the newest Win 7 driver and it did find the card. I need
to do a reboot which I cannot do until after the market closes in a
few minutes so I'll see if the current HDSP Win 7 mixer works.
Thanks for your interest and guidance.
Cheers,
Mark
Paul,
I'd be happy to try to involve RME if there's some real chance that
a Linux developer will really work on the issues. I don't want to try
to pump them up and then not have anyone here to really look at it.
Are you the person that would do this work? You're so busy with Ardour
that for the good of the community you wouldn't be my first choice as
I wasn't volunteering. But I do know that there are people who will
make the (apparently) minor tweaks to the driver to make it operate
with the new firmware (although its also very far from clear if any
changes at all are necessary).
I think this is a smaller issue than Ardour. I
know you have used RME
for years although I wasn't aware that you used an HDSP series card,
if you do.
I do.
when I got around to trying to load audio drivers
I went to the RME
web site and they stated very clearly that the Win 7 drivers require
the newest firmware. I don't blame them. It's probably good stuff, but
it looks like it will finally break compatibility with the 'old
firmware to make Alsa drivers work' construct.
that's not clear to me from the material that you quoted. i dealt with
several RME firmware upgrades in the past, and they were trivial to
support. you need to understand that the "firmware" is not actually
firmware at all. its just some data to be loaded into the matrix
mixer.
--p
6:29 p.m.
Paul,
that's not clear to me from the material that you
quoted. i dealt with
several RME firmware upgrades in the past, and they were trivial to
support. you need to understand that the "firmware" is not actually
firmware at all. its just some data to be loaded into the matrix
mixer.
That's not correct. It's the firmware for the Xilinx FPGA. I don't see
why the card should stop working in linux, it will still use the same
firmware as before.
The hdspe series is another case, it has its firmware on a flash.
Flo
--
Machines can do the work, so people have time to think.
public key DA43FEF4 x-hkp://wwwkeys.eu.pgp.net
7:14 p.m.
On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 10:29:41PM +0100, Florian Faber wrote:
I imagine that the new FPGA image could relocate registers etc.
that's not
clear to me from the material that you quoted. i dealt with
several RME firmware upgrades in the past, and they were trivial to
support. you need to understand that the "firmware" is not actually
firmware at all. its just some data to be loaded into the matrix
mixer.
That's not correct. It's the firmware for the Xilinx FPGA. I don't see
why the card should stop working in linux, it will still use the same
firmware as before. The hdspe series is another case, it has its firmware
on a flash.
--
FA
O tu, che porte, correndo si ?
E guerra e morte !
17 Mar
17 Mar
9:35 a.m.
On 03/16/10 23:10, fons(a)kokkinizita.net wrote:
After a power down, the firmware is gone. There's no persistent storage
in the old series to my knowledge. It's just the matter which OS
initializes the card when starting up since the firmware survives a warm
start.
Flo
--
Machines can do the work, so people have time to think.
public key DA43FEF4 x-hkp://wwwkeys.eu.pgp.net
That's not
correct. It's the firmware for the Xilinx FPGA. I don't see
why the card should stop working in linux, it will still use the same
firmware as before.
I imagine that the new FPGA image could relocate registers
etc.
16 Mar
16 Mar
7:55 p.m.
New subject: HDSP 9652+Win 7 == update flash - bye bye Linux audio & Alsa?
On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 5:29 PM, Florian Faber <faber(a)faberman.de> wrote:
Paul,
[ ... another example of my idiocy elided .... ]
That's not correct. It's the firmware for the
Xilinx FPGA. I don't see
why the card should stop working in linux, it will still use the same
firmware as before.
The hdspe series is another case, it has its firmware on a flash.
so, who's going to raise this with RME? me or you?
17 Mar
17 Mar
9:34 a.m.
On 03/16/10 23:55, Paul Davis wrote:
I can contact the author, but I have no 9652 to check.
Flo
--
Machines can do the work, so people have time to think.
public key DA43FEF4 x-hkp://wwwkeys.eu.pgp.net
The hdspe
series is another case, it has its firmware on a flash.
so, who's going to
raise this with RME? me or you?
12:27 p.m.
New subject: HDSP 9652+Win 7 == update flash - bye bye Linux audio & Alsa?
On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 5:34 AM, Florian Faber <faber(a)faberman.de> wrote:
On 03/16/10 23:55, Paul Davis wrote:
I can contact the author, but I have no 9652 to check.
Flo
I worked directly with Thomas Charbonell when he did a lot of the
original work. I'm happy to work with you or anyone else to do testing
on anything that would help move Alsa support up to the most recent
RME firmware revision.
We can talk more off line about what that might look like and how we
can make it work for you.
Cheers,
Mark
The hdspe
series is another case, it has its firmware on a flash.
so, who's going to
raise this with RME? me or you? 
18 Mar
18 Mar
4:40 a.m.
New subject: HDSP 9652+Win 7 == update flash - bye bye Linux audio & Alsa?
Quoting Mark Knecht <markknecht(a)gmail.com>om>:
With older hardware going up in smoke I have new
machines and
unfortunately you cannot load Win XP on these new machines easily. The
machines do not have floppy drives to load drivers during boot, don't
understand USB well enough to use something else as far as I can tell,
and the XP install disk cannot see the SATA hard drives via new
chipsets so it's all sort of a mess trying to stick with XP.
So far, all new PC's I've encountered still have drivers for XP if you
go to their website.
The trick to recognizing SATA is to set it to "Compatible" instead of
"Native" in BIOS. Once you've installed the proper driver you can set
it back to Native.
If you can't use USB to transfer the drivers after installing XP you
could burn them on a CD.
That said, I understand that getting the RME to work with Win7 and
ALSA would be the best option.
1:15 p.m.
New subject: HDSP 9652+Win 7 == update flash - bye bye Linux audio & Alsa?
On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 12:40 AM, Peder Hedlund <peder(a)musikhuset.org> wrote:
Quoting Mark Knecht <markknecht(a)gmail.com>om>:
Nahh...didn't work on these Intel motherboards. I tried all three
modes available in BIOS. None of them worked. I went so far as to find
a program that allows you to build custom windows install CDs and
tried to get that going but ran out of patience. (In short supply
these days with my blood pressure at 165/110 and the doctors shoveling
pills in me like they were candy...but hey - at least I'm making some
money in the futures market and can dream about playing my guitar some
day in the future.)
Thanks,
Mark
With older hardware going up in smoke I have
new machines and
unfortunately you cannot load Win XP on these new machines easily. The
machines do not have floppy drives to load drivers during boot, don't
understand USB well enough to use something else as far as I can tell,
and the XP install disk cannot see the SATA hard drives via new
chipsets so it's all sort of a mess trying to stick with XP.
So far, all new PC's I've encountered still have drivers for XP if you
go to their website.
The trick to recognizing SATA is to set it to "Compatible" instead of
"Native" in BIOS. Once you've installed the proper driver you can set
it back to Native.
19 Mar
19 Mar
7:32 p.m.
New subject: HDSP 9652+Win 7 == update flash - bye bye Linux audio & Alsa?
Quoting Mark Knecht <markknecht(a)gmail.com>om>:
I got a Lenovo M58 today with an Intel MoBo and the trick there was to
disable AHCI in the SATA settings. After that I had no problem booting
and installing with my XP-SP3 CD.
- Peder
So far, all
new PC's I've encountered still have drivers for XP if you
go to their website.
The trick to recognizing SATA is to set it to "Compatible" instead of
"Native" in BIOS. Once you've installed the proper driver you can set
it back to Native.
Nahh...didn't work on these Intel motherboards. I tried all three
modes available in BIOS. None of them worked.
7:53 p.m.
New subject: HDSP 9652+Win 7 == update flash - bye bye Linux audio & Alsa?
On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 3:32 PM, Peder Hedlund <peder(a)musikhuset.org> wrote:
Quoting Mark Knecht <markknecht(a)gmail.com>om>:
I got a Lenovo M58 today with an Intel MoBo and the trick there was to
disable AHCI in the SATA settings. After that I had no problem booting and
installing with my XP-SP3 CD.
- Peder
Congrats on getting it working.
My understanding about going that way was that WRT Windows, once
non-AHCI, always non-AHCI. Linux was easy. I built support for
everything into the kernel and can change BIOS anytime. I'll be
interested in your experiences as you go forward.
Cheers,
Mark
So far,
all new PC's I've encountered still have drivers for XP if you
go to their website.
The trick to recognizing SATA is to set it to "Compatible" instead of
"Native" in BIOS. Once you've installed the proper driver you can set
it back to Native.
Nahh...didn't work on these Intel motherboards. I tried all three
modes available in BIOS. None of them worked.
10:22 p.m.
New subject: HDSP 9652+Win 7 == update flash - bye bye Linux audio & Alsa?
Quoting Mark Knecht <markknecht(a)gmail.com>om>:
Nah, once you've got XP installed it's usually a matter of installing
the proper SATA/AHCI driver (I think in this case it's called Intel
Matrix Storage Driver), rebooting and resetting BIOS to
Native/AHCI/Whatever.
I've done this a bunch of times. With one chipset it wouldn't play
ball, but then I got a "prepare" driver for another chipset that
allowed me to boot and, when XP asked for the driver, install the
proper one.
Once I get to work on Monday (GMT+1) I'll see if I can dig up which
drivers I used. I think I have it documented.
That said, I guess having working RME-ALSA drivers would be the best solution.
- Peder
On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 3:32 PM, Peder Hedlund
<peder(a)musikhuset.org> wrote:
I got a Lenovo
M58 today with an Intel MoBo and the trick there was to
disable AHCI in the SATA settings. After that I had no problem booting and
installing with my XP-SP3 CD.
My understanding about going that way was that WRT
Windows, once
non-AHCI, always non-AHCI. Linux was easy. I built support for
everything into the kernel and can change BIOS anytime. I'll be
interested in your experiences as you go forward.
23 Mar
23 Mar
4:36 a.m.
New subject: HDSP 9652+Win 7 == update flash - bye bye Linux audio & Alsa?
Quoting Peder Hedlund <peder(a)musikhuset.org>rg>:
Quoting Mark Knecht <markknecht(a)gmail.com>om>:
Nah, once you've got XP installed it's usually a matter of installing
the proper SATA/AHCI driver (I think in this case it's called Intel
Matrix Storage Driver), rebooting and resetting BIOS to
Native/AHCI/Whatever.
Heh, on the M58 I never got the switch-to-SATA/NATIVE/AHCI-afterwards to work.
The storage driver didn't have a prepare driver, like the R400 had,
and no matter how I tried I couldn't get it to take any of the tricks
on the web:
http://forums.pcper.com/showthread.php?t=444831
- Peder
On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 3:32 PM, Peder Hedlund
<peder(a)musikhuset.org> wrote:
I got a
Lenovo M58 today with an Intel MoBo and the trick there was to
disable AHCI in the SATA settings. After that I had no problem booting and
installing with my XP-SP3 CD.
My understanding about going that way was that WRT
Windows, once
non-AHCI, always non-AHCI. Linux was easy. I built support for
everything into the kernel and can change BIOS anytime. I'll be
interested in your experiences as you go forward.
12:44 p.m.
New subject: HDSP 9652+Win 7 == update flash - bye bye Linux audio & Alsa?
On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 12:35 AM, Peder Hedlund <peder(a)musikhuset.org> wrote:
Quoting Peder Hedlund <peder(a)musikhuset.org>rg>:
That didn't work for me because my H55 chipset is so new that no
matter what settings I used in BIOS XP couldn't find it to do an
install. Apparently either the Intel BIOS or the chipset simply wasn't
compatible enough to make this strategy work.
People in the Intel forums were having the same problems. They started
using a program called nLite that allows you to modify the XP install
disc itself:
http://www.nliteos.com/index.html
It's a nice little program. Free and fairly easy to use. Basically it
tears apart the install disc's file system and then adds new drivers.
It does require that you can find the right drivers and then it writes
the new CD for you. Apparently I never found the right drivers as
nothing I ever wrote booted the Windows install at all.
Gentoo installs without issue so it's not like the hardwre doesn't
work, and win 7 installs fine also.
- Mark
Quoting Mark Knecht
<markknecht(a)gmail.com>om>:
Nah, once you've got XP installed it's usually a matter of installing
the proper SATA/AHCI driver (I think in this case it's called Intel
Matrix Storage Driver), rebooting and resetting BIOS to
Native/AHCI/Whatever.
Heh, on the M58 I never got the switch-to-SATA/NATIVE/AHCI-afterwards to
work.
The storage driver didn't have a prepare driver, like the R400 had, and no
matter how I tried I couldn't get it to take any of the tricks on the web:
http://forums.pcper.com/showthread.php?t=444831
- Peder
On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 3:32 PM, Peder Hedlund
<peder(a)musikhuset.org>
wrote:
I got a
Lenovo M58 today with an Intel MoBo and the trick there was to
disable AHCI in the SATA settings. After that I had no problem booting
and
installing with my XP-SP3 CD.
My understanding about going that way was that WRT Windows, once
non-AHCI, always non-AHCI. Linux was easy. I built support for
everything into the kernel and can change BIOS anytime. I'll be
interested in your experiences as you go forward.
5304
days inactive
5311
days old
linux-audio-user@lists.linuxaudio.org
18 comments
5 participants
participants (5)
-
Florian Faber -
fons＠kokkinizita.net -
Mark Knecht -
Paul Davis -
Peder Hedlund