14 Aug
2012
14 Aug
'12
8:07 p.m.
On Tue, 2012-08-14 at 13:12 -0400, Brandon Watkins wrote:
On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 1:00 PM, Geoff
<capsthorne(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
IIRC I was one of only two who tested the new patched polkit, but I'm
anyway one of the trolls ;p. I guess on most mailing lists a subject
"Lennart Poettering" with an empty mail would cause reactions, you won't
get if the subject would include any other name.
On Tue, 14 Aug 2012 13:24:49 -0300
Denis A. Altoé Falqueto <denisfalqueto(a)gmail.com> wrote:
To be fair, people on this mailing list did turn a thread asking to help
test a polkit patch into a giant flamewar about pulseaudio and lennart, so
can you blame them for calling our "trolls"? You should check arch-dev-public :)
It's a funny thread
https://mailman.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-dev-public/2012-August/023389.…
Mostly I just read arch-general and try to understand arguments. I do,
however, find this contribution the thread to which you refer very
saddening.
It is not the way I interpret the vast majority of contributions here.
"Let's do it. It's about time we lose these ML trolls.
--
Gaetan"
Perhaps we should all just shut up and do as we are told.
Geoff
14 Aug
14 Aug
11:26 p.m.
New subject: [arch-general] Lennart Poettering on udev-systemd
On 14 August 2012 19:07, Ralf Mardorf <ralf.mardorf(a)alice-dsl.net> wrote:
I guess on most mailing lists a subject
"Lennart Poettering" with an empty mail would cause reactions, you won't
get if the subject would include any other name.
Perhaps Ralf Mardorf.
What's wrong with systemd? I haven't tested it yet, but the principles
seem sound. And I'm not interested in arguments based on extrapolation
from its author's other oeuvres.
Chris
11:33 p.m.
New subject: [arch-general] Lennart Poettering on udev-systemd
On Tue, 2012-08-14 at 22:26 +0100, Chris Cannam wrote:
On 14 August 2012 19:07, Ralf Mardorf
<ralf.mardorf(a)alice-dsl.net> wrote:
Yes, many people don't like me, but I'm not important to them. We only
would get some mails mentioning that I'm an asshole, but there wouldn't
be several threads about me, since I'm just annoying, but I don't break
Linux :p.
I guess on most mailing lists a subject
"Lennart Poettering" with an empty mail would cause reactions, you won't
get if the subject would include any other name.
Perhaps Ralf Mardorf.
15 Aug
15 Aug
12:09 a.m.
New subject: [arch-general] Lennart Poettering on udev-systemd
On Tue, 2012-08-14 at 23:32 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
On Tue, 2012-08-14 at 22:26 +0100, Chris Cannam
wrote:
PS: On most mailing list even nobody knows who I'm, I'm neither
annoying, nor important and I don't do public relations about me or my
work. At LAU, I didn't start anything bad at Arch general. The
discussions about LP where started by others, in the first place I just
contributed by testing a patch, that I do not need.
While I understand Chris's joke, it anyway is a serious issue and I'm
not guilty of starting the discussions about LP at Arch.
To avoid a defamation Chris might tell the whole story!
On 14 August 2012 19:07, Ralf Mardorf
<ralf.mardorf(a)alice-dsl.net> wrote:
Yes, many people don't like me, but I'm not important to them. We only
would get some mails mentioning that I'm an asshole, but there wouldn't
be several threads about me, since I'm just annoying, but I don't break
Linux :p. I guess on most mailing lists a subject
"Lennart Poettering" with an empty mail would cause reactions, you won't
get if the subject would include any other name.
Perhaps Ralf Mardorf.
12:18 p.m.
New subject: [arch-general] Lennart Poettering on udev-systemd
On 14 August 2012 23:09, Ralf Mardorf <ralf.mardorf(a)alice-dsl.net> wrote:
While I understand Chris's joke, it anyway is a
serious issue and I'm
not guilty of starting the discussions about LP at Arch.
I apologise -- I hadn't intended to be hurtful.
I was interested though (not having been involved in the Arch thread,
though I am an Arch user) in what it was that readers of this list
might be expected to have concerns about.
Chris
10:38 a.m.
New subject: [arch-general] Lennart Poettering on udev-systemd
On Tuesday 14 August 2012, Chris Cannam wrote:
On 14 August 2012 19:07, Ralf Mardorf
<ralf.mardorf(a)alice-dsl.net> wrote:
"there is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and
that is not being talked about" (Oscar Wilde)
Regards,
Pedro
I guess on most mailing lists a subject
"Lennart Poettering" with an empty mail would cause reactions, you
won't get if the subject would include any other name.
Perhaps Ralf Mardorf. 
12:48 p.m.
New subject: [arch-general] Lennart Poettering on udev-systemd
On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 10:37:32AM +0200, Pedro Lopez-Cabanillas wrote:
On Tuesday 14 August 2012, Chris Cannam wrote:
Monty Python, wasn't it?
--
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the
oppressing." --- Malcolm X
On 14 August 2012 19:07, Ralf Mardorf
<ralf.mardorf(a)alice-dsl.net> wrote:
"there is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and
that is not being talked about" (Oscar Wilde) I guess on most mailing lists a subject
"Lennart Poettering" with an empty mail would cause reactions, you
won't get if the subject would include any other name.
Perhaps Ralf Mardorf.
1:26 p.m.
New subject: [arch-general] Lennart Poettering on udev-systemd
On Wednesday 15 August 2012, Chris Bannister wrote:
On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 10:37:32AM +0200, Pedro
Lopez-Cabanillas wrote:
Yep, second handed:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxXW6tfl2Y0
Original:
"What odd chaps you painters are! You do anything in the world to gain a
reputation. As soon as you have one, you seem to want to throw it away. It
is silly of you, for there is only one thing in the world worse than being
talked about, and that is not being talked about. A portrait like this would
set you far above all the young men in England, and make the old men quite
jealous, if old men are ever capable of any emotion."
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/174
Regards,
Pedro
"there is only one thing in the world worse
than being talked about,
and that is not being talked about" (Oscar Wilde)
Monty Python, wasn't it? 
17 Aug
17 Aug
1:57 p.m.
New subject: [arch-general] Lennart Poettering on udev-systemd
On 08/14/2012 01:07 PM, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>>
https://mailman.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-dev-public/2012-August/023389.…
>>
>> Mostly I just read arch-general and try to understand arguments. I do,
>> however, find this contribution the thread to which you refer very
>> saddening.
>> It is not the way I interpret the vast majority of contributions here.
>>
>> "Let's do it. It's about time we lose these ML trolls.
>> --
>> Gaetan"
>>
>> Perhaps we should all just shut up and do as we are told.
[snip]
Sure, systemd sucks.
...But so does sysvinit. That's why every distro has their own
non-standard, customized init script wrappers that you're not ever
supposed to invoke directly.
Have you ever actually tried to get SysV Init scripts to work out the
dependencies among themselves? Even if you get the non-standardized
syntax right... most SysV implementations don't even support it (e.g.
Debian).
systemd offers solutions to this that result in faster boot-time, a more
reliable boot (fewer race conditions), and (eventually) less system
init-script maintenance time.
SysV only offers that "after all the countless hours of hand crafting
these damn scripts and hand-sorting them into the right order -- if you
don't touch them then they won't break."
At some point you have to turn a deaf ear to nay-sayers and move on.
-gabriel
18 Aug
18 Aug
12:28 a.m.
New subject: [arch-general] Lennart Poettering on udev-systemd
On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 06:57:19AM -0500, Gabriel M. Beddingfield wrote:
Have you ever actually tried to get SysV Init scripts
to work out
the dependencies among themselves? Even if you get the
non-standardized syntax right... most SysV implementations don't
even support it (e.g. Debian).
systemd offers solutions to this that result in faster boot-time, a
more reliable boot (fewer race conditions), and (eventually) less
system init-script maintenance time.
SysV only offers that "after all the countless hours of hand
crafting these damn scripts and hand-sorting them into the right
order -- if you don't touch them then they won't break."
At some point you have to turn a deaf ear to nay-sayers and move on.
http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2012/08/msg00393.html
In particular:
http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2012/04/msg00751.html
openrc is being looked at as a possible alternative.
--
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the
oppressing." --- Malcolm X
1:51 a.m.
New subject: [arch-general] Lennart Poettering on udev-systemd
On Fri, August 17, 2012 3:22 pm, Chris Bannister wrote:
On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 06:57:19AM -0500, Gabriel M.
Beddingfield wrote:
As a musician... One of the fundamental problems I have is that a computer
set up for desktop use is less than optimal for music. As the sole bread
winner in a family I must be able to use My computer as a desktop machine
as well as for music. The best way would be to have a computer(s) just for
music and remove a lot of the un-needed junk. It used to be that one tool
could decide what services would run in what run level and simply by
changing run levels I could have a quiet machine (most services turned
off). Enter upstart and or systemd. I have the former and I can turn some
services off by runlevel (cron and friends that might do just about
anything during recording) but to do that I have to edit a file for each
one by hand. If I want to make some software to change things from a nice
gui, it has to deal with three or more ways of doing things.... or worse.
If you think init.d scripts are bad, try working with upstart files or as
Ubuntu is, half and half... systemd would be half and half too. Both say
they are backwards compatible with the old system, but the author of
systemd at least is actively (in his own words) looking to get beyond
that.
Quite honestly, does it matter if the system takes 30 seconds to boot or 3
minutes? Only as a show off to a non-linux user. windows and OSx are one
mode OSs and to be fair most people use their system that way, the days of
RL2 for text base and RL3 for X are long gone. But the usefulness of
different operating modes has not.... for a small number of people who do
more than use their computer to write documents and browse the web while
listening to MP3s. (there may be some game situations where a quiet
machine would be nice too... I don't do games enough to worry)
I agree with the links above, we are seeing versatility being removed
Linux for the average user. A tight coupling of the kernel with init (of
what ever kind) removes almost all of the embedded, science and fringe
uses (like pro and semi-pro audio)
Yes it took hours (months, weeks) to get init.d scripts to work, but so
did it take all that time to get systemd and upstart just as far as they
are. And they are not IMO finished yet. I have done some reading on
upstart (a little less but some on systemd as well) They are designed to
start the system and shut it down, not make changes mid run. upstart is
lost if it is restarted without a reboot (sounds like windows), but the
old init can be replaced with a new version and restarted. Upstart once it
has started a sequence of programs may not be able to restart just one of
them because startup depends on signals that are issued once (here I think
systemd is the same). Upstart scripts only read the "and/or" states once.
It is easy to look at something new and think it is great, but I expect
(Linux systems being what they are) that there will be just as many messy
work-arounds with the new stuff.
A new system? great! but start with flexibility rather than speed. Scripts
are still the most flexible things around. Make it so services can easily
be turned off and on without hand editing or uninstalling...
I agree with Debian's wait and see... think about all the uses and if this
new thing will fit.
--
Len Ovens
www.OvenWerks.net
Have you ever actually tried to get SysV Init
scripts to work out
the dependencies among themselves? Even if you get the
non-standardized syntax right... most SysV implementations don't
even support it (e.g. Debian).
systemd offers solutions to this that result in faster boot-time, a
more reliable boot (fewer race conditions), and (eventually) less
system init-script maintenance time.
SysV only offers that "after all the countless hours of hand
crafting these damn scripts and hand-sorting them into the right
order -- if you don't touch them then they won't break."
At some point you have to turn a deaf ear to nay-sayers and move on.
http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2012/08/msg00393.html
In particular:
http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2012/04/msg00751.html
openrc is being looked at as a possible alternative. 
3:01 a.m.
New subject: [arch-general] Lennart Poettering on udev-systemd
Len Ovens:
...
As a musician... One of the fundamental problems I
have is that a computer
set up for desktop use is less than optimal for music. As the sole bread
winner in a family I must be able to use My computer as a desktop machine
as well as for music. The best way would be to have a computer(s) just for
music and remove a lot of the un-needed junk. It used to be that one tool
could decide what services would run in what run level and simply by
changing run levels I could have a quiet machine (most services turned
off).
...
You might want to look into file-rc:
$ apt-cache show file-rc
Package: file-rc
...
Description-en: Alternative boot mechanism using a single configuration file
This package provides an alternative mechanism to boot the system, to
shut it down and to change runlevels. The /etc/rc?.d/* links will be
converted into one single configuration file /etc/runlevel.conf
instead, which is easier to administrate than symlinks, and is also
more flexible.
.
The package will automatically convert your existing symlinks into
the file method on installation, and convert the file back into
symlinks on removal. Both mechanisms are compatible through
/etc/init.d/rc, /etc/init.d/rcS, /usr/sbin/update-rc.d, and
/usr/sbin/invoke-rc.d scripts.
Tag: admin::boot, admin::configuring, implemented-in::shell, interface::daemon,
role::program, use::configuring
Regards,
/Karl Hammar
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Aspö Data
Lilla Aspö 148
S-742 94 Östhammar
Sweden
+46 173 140 57
20 Aug
20 Aug
9:43 a.m.
New subject: Apologize - Was: Lennart Poettering on udev-systemd
Chris I have to apologize. I didn't notice that it was me who send this
to the wrong ML. Dunno how this could happen, I seemingly didn't read
what autocomplete of my MUA added. It wasn't intended to send it to LAU.
Apologize to the list and Chris and to everybody quoted by this accidentally send mail,
Ralf
4512
days inactive
4518
days old
linux-audio-user@lists.linuxaudio.org
12 comments
7 participants
participants (7)
-
Chris Bannister -
Chris Cannam -
Gabriel M. Beddingfield -
karl＠aspodata.se -
Len Ovens -
Pedro Lopez-Cabanillas -
Ralf Mardorf