31 Mar
2015
31 Mar
'15
9:34 a.m.
I have an external USB hub with its own power supply. It introduces a hum when I have its
PS connected.
David W. Jones
gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
http://dancingtreefrog.com
On Mar 30, 2015 1:00 PM, Len Ovens <len(a)ovenwerks.net> wrote:
On Mon, 30 Mar 2015, Fons Adriaensen wrote:
Some week ago I had some spare time and decided
to have a look at
it. Connected the USB to my Linux workstation and connected some
headphones to the mixer. Result: with all faders down and just
the HP volume turned up there was a high level 50/100 Hz in the
headphones. Removing the USB connection was enough to stop it.
Good to know. The last mixer I bought I went through channel by channel
and each control looking odd things like that. I would have thought there
should be no analog Audio anywhere near the USB.
--
Len Ovens
www.ovenwerks.net
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-user mailing list
Linux-audio-user(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-user 
31 Mar
31 Mar
7:36 p.m.
New subject: Behringer and Linux
On Tue, March 31, 2015 6:34 pm, David Jones wrote:
I have an external USB hub with its own power supply.
It introduces a hum
when I have its PS connected.
David W. Jones
gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
http://dancingtreefrog.com
On Mar 30, 2015 1:00 PM, Len Ovens <len(a)ovenwerks.net> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 30 Mar 2015, Fons Adriaensen wrote:
>
> > Some week ago I had some spare time and decided to have a look at
> > it. Connected the USB to my Linux workstation and connected some
> > headphones to the mixer. Result: with all faders down and just
> > the HP volume turned up there was a high level 50/100 Hz in the
> > headphones. Removing the USB connection was enough to stop it.
>
> Good to know. The last mixer I bought I went through channel by channel
> and each control looking odd things like that. I would have thought
> there
> should be no analog Audio anywhere near the USB.
>
> --
> Len Ovens
> www.ovenwerks.net
>
As no one else is using it maybe Fons can convince his boss to donate it
to a worthy student recipient attending the LAC.
That person might not have much money but they might have the time to
figure out where the buzz comes from and do something productive. Who
knows they might even be able to provide useful feedback to Behringer that
improves their Linux solutions.
Sounds like everything else on the board was working ok so a little bit of
hum should be relatively easy to solve. Maybe it just needs some contact
spray.
--
Patrick Shirkey
Boost Hardware Ltd
8:47 p.m.
New subject: Behringer and Linux
On Tue, March 31, 2015 12:36 pm, Patrick Shirkey wrote:
That person might not have much money but they might
have the time to
figure out where the buzz comes from and do something productive. Who
knows they might even be able to provide useful feedback to Behringer that
improves their Linux solutions.
Sounds like everything else on the board was working ok so a little bit of
hum should be relatively easy to solve. Maybe it just needs some contact
spray.
That type of problem is indicative of poor circuit reference conductor
routing (colloquially called "ground loop" or "pin 1 problem") and
can
sometimes be improved with judicious use of added wire or copper foil tape
connections, but often requires a new and proper PCB layout to correct.
It is basically just sloppy layout work by the design team.
--
Chris Caudle
9:06 p.m.
New subject: Behringer and Linux
On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 01:46:40PM -0500, Chris Caudle wrote:
On Tue, March 31, 2015 12:36 pm, Patrick Shirkey
wrote:
Right. And in cheap mixers like this one, everything including connectors,
pots and switches will be on a single PCB, and there's no way to change
anything much unless you decide to drill some holes in it.
And BTW, it was not 'a little bit of hum' but a ot of it, and new
equipment should't need contact spray (and it won't help for this
kind of problem either).
Ciao,
--
FA
A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia.
It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris
and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)
That person might not have much money but they
might have the time to
figure out where the buzz comes from and do something productive. Who
knows they might even be able to provide useful feedback to Behringer that
improves their Linux solutions.
Sounds like everything else on the board was working ok so a little bit of
hum should be relatively easy to solve. Maybe it just needs some contact
spray.
That type of problem is indicative of poor circuit reference conductor
routing (colloquially called "ground loop" or "pin 1 problem") and
can
sometimes be improved with judicious use of added wire or copper foil tape
connections, but often requires a new and proper PCB layout to correct.
It is basically just sloppy layout work by the design team. 
9:34 p.m.
New subject: Behringer and Linux
On Tue, 31 Mar 2015 19:06:23 +0000
Fons Adriaensen <fons(a)linuxaudio.org> wrote:
On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 01:46:40PM -0500, Chris Caudle
wrote:
Actually, the problem could be as simple as something like a missing nylon
washer when the kit was assembled so something gets connected to the case when
it shouldn't. I've had that sort of thing crop up. The other extreme of course
is the case not grounded and acting like a nice pickup source.
--
Will J Godfrey
http://www.musically.me.uk
Say you have a poem and I have a tune.
Exchange them and we can both have a poem, a tune, and a song.
On Tue, March 31, 2015 12:36 pm, Patrick Shirkey
wrote:
Right. And in cheap mixers like this one, everything including connectors,
pots and switches will be on a single PCB, and there's no way to change
anything much unless you decide to drill some holes in it.
And BTW, it was not 'a little bit of hum' but a ot of it, and new
equipment should't need contact spray (and it won't help for this
kind of problem either).
Ciao, That person might not have much money but they
might have the time to
figure out where the buzz comes from and do something productive. Who
knows they might even be able to provide useful feedback to Behringer that
improves their Linux solutions.
Sounds like everything else on the board was working ok so a little bit of
hum should be relatively easy to solve. Maybe it just needs some contact
spray.
That type of problem is indicative of poor circuit reference conductor
routing (colloquially called "ground loop" or "pin 1 problem") and
can
sometimes be improved with judicious use of added wire or copper foil tape
connections, but often requires a new and proper PCB layout to correct.
It is basically just sloppy layout work by the design team. 
9:53 p.m.
New subject: Behringer and Linux
On Tue, 31 Mar 2015 20:34:52 +0100
Will Godfrey <willgodfrey(a)musically.me.uk> wrote:
Actually, the problem could be as simple as something
like a missing nylon
washer when the kit was assembled so something gets connected to the case when
it shouldn't. I've had that sort of thing crop up. The other extreme of course
is the case not grounded and acting like a nice pickup source.
It wouldn't surprise me to see this on Behringer's low end. I certainly
hope the X32 line will have a higher quality of workmanship, but time will tell.
--
======================================================================
Joe Hartley - UNIX/network Consultant - jh(a)brainiac.com
Without deviation from the norm, "progress" is not possible. - FZappa
11:10 p.m.
New subject: Behringer and Linux
On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 08:34:52PM +0100, Will Godfrey wrote:
Actually, the problem could be as simple as something
like a missing nylon
washer when the kit was assembled so something gets connected to the case when
it shouldn't. I've had that sort of thing crop up. The other extreme of course
is the case not grounded and acting like a nice pickup source.
The case not grounded was what I found some years ago on 3 of a batch
of 8 active speakers from a very reputable source (Quested). The cause
was black anodised metal parts not making contact - easy enough to fix,
but safety ground should have been tested even if that is the only
thing tested.
Ciao,
--
FA
A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia.
It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris
and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)
1 Apr
1 Apr
9:03 a.m.
New subject: Behringer and Linux
On Wed, April 1, 2015 5:46 am, Chris Caudle wrote:
On Tue, March 31, 2015 12:36 pm, Patrick Shirkey
wrote:
So you are saying that Behringer manufactured and released an entire range
without testing *any* of them before they went out the door for ground
loop issues at the board/design level?
Seem pretty unlikely even for cheap low end manufacturing from China. they
usually try to test at least *one* of their boards for obvious things like
that before they mass produce.
More likely this one just slipped through the (random) QC process which
tends to happen when you have a tight deadline and many thousands of units
to ship and some low paid unskilled workers manning the production line...
I'm sure that someone from the LAC would be more than happy to test it for
Fons and help get to the bottom of the problem.
That person might not have much money but they
might have the time to
figure out where the buzz comes from and do something productive. Who
knows they might even be able to provide useful feedback to Behringer
that
improves their Linux solutions.
Sounds like everything else on the board was working ok so a little bit
of
hum should be relatively easy to solve. Maybe it just needs some contact
spray.
That type of problem is indicative of poor circuit reference conductor
routing (colloquially called "ground loop" or "pin 1 problem") and
can
sometimes be improved with judicious use of added wire or copper foil tape
connections, but often requires a new and proper PCB layout to correct.
It is basically just sloppy layout work by the design team.
From his description it sounded like the device was
working pretty good
with Linux in every other way. Just a bit of hum at the hardware
level.
That is not bad considering that only a few years ago the idea of an
affordable plug and play digital hardware mixer on Linux was just that, an
idea.
--
Patrick Shirkey
Boost Hardware Ltd
10:25 a.m.
New subject: Behringer and Linux
On Wed, 1 Apr 2015 18:03:08 +1100 (EST), Patrick Shirkey wrote:
On Wed, April 1, 2015 5:46 am, Chris Caudle wrote:
Regarding a chronically shortage of money I needed to buy Behringer
gear in the last ten or so years.
When I got a brandnew Behringer Modulizer Pro it caused loud ground
loops, so I sent it back. The repaired Behringer Modulizer doesn't
cause ground loops anymore, but ever since the data wheel jams.
The switching power supply of the Eurorack UB2442FX-Pro is assembled
with capacitors of too less voltage, so when they get broken I
replaced them with the correct capacitors, but the mixer more or less
can't be used anymore, because all switches don't work correctly
anymore. It purposely is designed to fail at the end of the guarantee
period.
The power supply of the ADA8000 gets too hot to mount it in a rack.
The X V-Amp LX1-X plastic case degas, it cause a disgusting smell.
The foot switches are noisy, not in the signal path, but any noise is
unwanted.
Regarding the operability of Behringer gear, a lot of it can't be used
on stage or under deadline pressure. It's tricky to use and sometimes
lettering is difficult to read.
The product range does change very often, after a short time you can't
get it anymore, assumed you like and need one of the products. You even
can't get the free software from their homepage for this gear anymore
and support doesn't reply to a request.
I also own very old brand-name products. It is easy to use those
products, everything is readable and it seldom failed, most of it never
failed and at least some of the stomp boxes for stage usage are still
sold nowadays.
IMO there's only one reason to buy Behringer gear. The sound quality
often is good. It's cheap, so if you don't have much money and you are
aware about the drawbacks, it sometimes is better to get a crappy
device instead of no device.
YMMV!
Regards,
Ralf
That type of problem is indicative of poor
circuit reference
conductor routing (colloquially called "ground loop" or "pin 1
problem") and can sometimes be improved with judicious use of added
wire or copper foil tape connections, but often requires a new and
proper PCB layout to correct. It is basically just sloppy layout
work by the design team.
So you are saying that Behringer manufactured and released an entire
range without testing *any* of them before they went out the door for
ground loop issues at the board/design level?
11:14 a.m.
New subject: Behringer and Linux
On 03/31/2015 10:25 PM, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
On Wed, 1 Apr 2015 18:03:08 +1100 (EST), Patrick
Shirkey wrote:
My UCA202 just keeps chugging along. I use it for recording on stage.
Lettering is clear and easy to read (compare with note below about my
Yamaha keyboard).
One of our band's bassists' had a Behringer active DI box with assorted
amplifier modelling built in. We had a lot of trouble when we tried to
use it on stage. So that particular bit of equipment wasn't any good.
(Or maybe it's that bassist's curse. He has a knack for acquiring things
other than basses - he uses a very nice Rickenbacker - and invariably
picking something not very good. For example, he bought a used Variax
guitar (all kinds of hardware-based digital modelling built into it).
Yet it never works for more than a few minutes at a time before it
starts spitting out barrages of static, or intermittently cuts out.
Appears to be a flakey cable connection in the guitar. Unfortunately,
the Variax uses a weird cable of its own that powers the on-board
processor. Dropping and restoring power to the processor resets the
processor to its default setting ... so whatever previous setting you
were using is suddenly gone ... )
On Wed, April 1, 2015 5:46 am, Chris Caudle
wrote:
Regarding a chronically shortage of money I needed to buy Behringer
gear in the last ten or so years.
When I got a brandnew Behringer Modulizer Pro it caused loud ground
loops, so I sent it back. The repaired Behringer Modulizer doesn't
cause ground loops anymore, but ever since the data wheel jams.
The switching power supply of the Eurorack UB2442FX-Pro is assembled
with capacitors of too less voltage, so when they get broken I
replaced them with the correct capacitors, but the mixer more or less
can't be used anymore, because all switches don't work correctly
anymore. It purposely is designed to fail at the end of the guarantee
period.
The power supply of the ADA8000 gets too hot to mount it in a rack.
The X V-Amp LX1-X plastic case degas, it cause a disgusting smell.
The foot switches are noisy, not in the signal path, but any noise is
unwanted.
Regarding the operability of Behringer gear, a lot of it can't be used
on stage or under deadline pressure. It's tricky to use and sometimes
lettering is difficult to read. That type of problem is indicative of poor
circuit reference
conductor routing (colloquially called "ground loop" or "pin 1
problem") and can sometimes be improved with judicious use of added
wire or copper foil tape connections, but often requires a new and
proper PCB layout to correct. It is basically just sloppy layout
work by the design team.
So you are saying that Behringer manufactured and released an entire
range without testing *any* of them before they went out the door for
ground loop issues at the board/design level? The product range does change very often, after a
short time you can't
get it anymore, assumed you like and need one of the products. You even
can't get the free software from their homepage for this gear anymore
and support doesn't reply to a request.
I also own very old brand-name products. It is easy to use those
products, everything is readable and it seldom failed, most of it never
failed and at least some of the stomp boxes for stage usage are still
sold nowadays.
Yah, I have a brand name product here - Yamaha PSR-225GM. Not pro stuff,
but I must say that the colors they chose for the stenciling on this
keyboard make it impossible to read the labels under almost any kind of
lighting.
IMO there's only one reason to buy Behringer gear.
The sound quality
often is good. It's cheap, so if you don't have much money and you are
aware about the drawbacks, it sometimes is better to get a crappy
device instead of no device.
That's why I got the UCA202. It was like $20 and works out of the box
with Linux. Sound quality is quite good.
I'm more inclined to suspect cheap production-quality for the Behringer
equipment the original poster mentioned, not fundamental design problems.
YMMV!
Agreed! We have a 12-port Presonus Firewire interface at church, it
worked fine until a newer Windows (Windows 7, IIRC) on our sound tech's
new laptop no longer provided a driver, and wouldn't allow the
manufacturer's Windows XP driver to install or run ... and I no longer
have a laptop with a Firewire port.
--
David W. Jones
gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
http://dancingtreefrog.com
1:29 p.m.
New subject: Behringer and Linux
On Tue, 2015-03-31 at 23:14 -1000, david wrote:
Yah, I have a brand name product here - Yamaha
PSR-225GM. Not pro stuff,
but I must say that the colors they chose for the stenciling on this
keyboard make it impossible to read the labels under almost any kind of
lighting.
I remember that you mentioned this once we discussed the
design/functionality of audio gear and everyday thing. Btw. I still
didn't buy the book "The Design of Everyday Things".
http://www.bax-shop.fr/media/catalog/product/B/e/Behringer_LX1-X-V-Amp-gita…
One data wheel and the second functions are printed in one shade of
grey, to make them invisible under stage light. Perhaps because the
second function needs to be selected by the the same button, that is
used to tap the speed of effect's LFOs and delay time. The grey font is
nearly unreadable on that picture, even after enlarging it.
Behringer gear often is unusable regarding the idiotic combinations of
buttons you need to do, it doesn't matter if the fonts are readable or
not.
Perhaps not an issue for the X32 live mixer, it got good reviews from
customers. However, those good reviews exclude durability, until now
nobody knows how long it will last.
I don't mount my ADA8000 to a rack and place it on sockets, so that
there's air even under the device, I remember an anecdote from Fons
about ADA8000s mounted to a rack. For the home studio the low price
could be an advantage, but for professional usage the low price could
cause expensive issues, so in the end it could be more pricey to buy
Behringer gear.
I'm more inclined to suspect cheap
production-quality for the
Behringer equipment the original poster mentioned, not fundamental
design problems.
That reminds me of my Behringer mixing console UB2442FX-PRO. It's a
known issue that companies chose capacitors with to low voltage for
power switching supplies. They want that they fail at the end of the
guarantee period. Since Behringer does this too, I wouldn't trust any
Behringer product for serious, professional studio work or live usage.
Using voltage undersized capacitors in a power switching supply is an
intentional fundamental design problem.
It's possible to fry eggs on my ADA8000 and IIRC Fons had 4 of those hot
ADAs too and they burned when he rent an acoustic room.
3:30 p.m.
New subject: Behringer and Linux
On Wed, 1 Apr 2015, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
anymore. It purposely is designed to fail at the end
of the guarantee
period.
I generally pay an extra $20 or so for the extended waranty the local
store offers. Good for a few years, no shipping involved, free loaner
during repair, covers even abused equipment. It costs a little more than
sweetwater (less than 5%) and part of that is the dollar diff. I don't
have to worry about shipping or duty either. They don't mind if I take my
computer in and try IFs in store and most things I can take back within 30
days if they are not "suitable" even things they had to order in or
transfer from across the country. They are also pretty good about telling
me if they get a lot of returns on an item.
I am cheap, but willing to pay a bit extra for things like this.
--
Len Ovens
www.ovenwerks.net
9:31 p.m.
New subject: Behringer and Linux
On Wed, Apr 01, 2015 at 10:25:16AM +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
The power supply of the ADA8000 gets too hot to mount
it in a rack.
:-) Memories. I was once present at a recording session in an anechoic
room with some of the guys from Parma Univ. They had a small rack with
four of those stacked on top each other and just some space below and
above that cluster. After half an hour they were to hot to touch and
the smell was quit clear. They didn't fail then, but three of them did
the next time they were powered.
I had eight of them at the CdM, and over the years six of them failed,
in all cases the power supply.
But mind you, the same problem exists with some RME gear which also
uses cheap $5 chinese PSUs even if the unit costs 2k Euro.
Ciao,
--
FA
A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia.
It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris
and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)
10:52 p.m.
New subject: Behringer and Linux
On Wed, 1 Apr 2015 19:31:00 +0000
Fons Adriaensen <fons(a)linuxaudio.org> wrote:
On Wed, Apr 01, 2015 at 10:25:16AM +0200, Ralf Mardorf
wrote:
Memories indeed!
In the late 1990s I worked for a company that specialised in (then
state-of-the-art) video conferencing systems, these included some quite
sophisticated noise, interference and echo cancelling units. While I was there,
they were slowly phasing out one type and replacing them with a newer smaller
and cheaper units, only every time they tried to pair old with new, the new ones
would lock up after a few hours.
My one claim to fame there, was that it was me that worked out that (logically)
everyone put the new units on top of the old, but those old ones got incredibly
hot. Stack them the other way round and although it looked odd, they all worked
fine :)
I can't for the life of me remember the name of the units, But I know the old
ones started with an 'E' and the new ones with a 'D' and I only remember
that
because we prefixed the notes with those initials.
P.S.
The video part of the system was separate specialist kit. Computer graphics
couldn't make the grade, especially when you wanted to do multiple
picture-in-picture :)
--
Will J Godfrey
http://www.musically.me.uk
Say you have a poem and I have a tune.
Exchange them and we can both have a poem, a tune, and a song.
The power supply of the ADA8000 gets too hot to
mount it in a rack.
:-) Memories. I was once present at a recording session in an anechoic
room with some of the guys from Parma Univ. They had a small rack with
four of those stacked on top each other and just some space below and
above that cluster. After half an hour they were to hot to touch and
the smell was quit clear. They didn't fail then, but three of them did
the next time they were powered.
I had eight of them at the CdM, and over the years six of them failed,
in all cases the power supply.
But mind you, the same problem exists with some RME gear which also
uses cheap $5 chinese PSUs even if the unit costs 2k Euro.
Ciao,
8:46 p.m.
New subject: Behringer and Linux
On Wed, Apr 01, 2015 at 06:03:08PM +1100, Patrick Shirkey wrote:
So you are saying that Behringer manufactured and
released an entire range
without testing *any* of them before they went out the door for ground
loop issues at the board/design level?
Happens all the time with cheap things. Some prototypes or early production
samples are tested, then the production process is adapted to large volume,
very probably everything is outsourced to a different sweatshop, and any
further quality control is supposed to be done by the user.
As for Behringer, I still have to see the first bit of hardware that
does not have some problem. Everything that I've tested for the last
ten years or so has failed in some way.
I'm sure that someone from the LAC would be more
than happy to test it for
Fons and help get to the bottom of the problem.
The thing is not on the list of assets I control, so forget about that.
From his description it sounded like the device was
working pretty good
with Linux in every other way.
There is absolutely nothing in my original post that would even
faintly suggest that anything was working. Please stop suggesting
that I wrote things I did not write. You seem to have enough issues
with what I _did_ write anyway.
Just a bit of hum at the hardware level.
Again, not 'just a bit' but tons of it. Reread my original post.
That is not bad considering that only a few years ago
the idea of an
affordable plug and play digital hardware mixer on Linux was just that,
an idea.
It's not a digital mixer, nor did I suggest it was.
Meanwhile the thing has been used as an headphone amp since we
needed one. So I can confirm that channel 1 line input is working,
as is the master strip and the headphone output. That's all.
Ciao,
--
FA
A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia.
It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris
and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)
9:51 p.m.
New subject: Behringer and Linux
~ Russell
On Apr 1, 2015, at 11:46 AM, Fons Adriaensen
<fons(a)linuxaudio.org> wrote:
Emphasis on "cheap". Just to trail on from the general convo re: behringer.
There is a reason it's so "affordable" and available. That said, I have some
B gear in my arsenal for live and recording stuff. I figure if it's doing what I need
it to, all is dandy. I simply consider it disposable gear to some degree. The $200
Euromixer 32-8-2 is absolutely handy as a live mixer. The preamps are even quiet enough to
do some "b" level recording thru. Bit fragile and crispy sonically but they
work. Do I expect it to perform like quality gear? Nope! Not ever! I've spent $200 on
a cable.. Not telling you guys anything you don't know... Just sayin even crap gear
has it's uses. :)
R
On Wed, Apr 01, 2015 at 06:03:08PM +1100, Patrick
Shirkey wrote:
So you are saying that Behringer manufactured and released an entire range
without testing *any* of them before they went out the door for ground
loop issues at the board/design level?
Happens all the time with cheap things. Some prototypes or early production
samples are tested, then the production process is adapted to large volume,
very probably everything is outsourced to a different sweatshop, and any
further quality control is supposed to be done by the user.
As for Behringer, I still have to see the first bit of hardware that
does not have some problem. Everything that I've tested for the last
ten years or so has failed in some way. I'm sure that someone from the LAC would be
more than happy to test it for
Fons and help get to the bottom of the problem.
The thing is not on the list of assets I control, so forget about that.
From his description it sounded like the device
was working pretty good
with Linux in every other way.
There is absolutely nothing in my original post that would even
faintly suggest that anything was working. Please stop suggesting
that I wrote things I did not write. You seem to have enough issues
with what I _did_ write anyway.
Just a bit of hum at the hardware level.
Again, not 'just a bit' but tons of it. Reread my original post.
That is not bad considering that only a few years
ago the idea of an
affordable plug and play digital hardware mixer on Linux was just that,
an idea.
It's not a digital mixer, nor did I suggest it was.
Meanwhile the thing has been used as an headphone amp since we
needed one. So I can confirm that channel 1 line input is working,
as is the master strip and the headphone output. That's all.
Ciao,
--
FA
A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia.
It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris
and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)
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15 comments
10 participants
participants (10)
-
Chris Caudle -
david -
David Jones
-
Fons Adriaensen -
Joe Hartley -
Len Ovens -
Patrick Shirkey -
Ralf Mardorf -
Russell Hanaghan -
Will Godfrey