24 Feb
2018
24 Feb
'18
4:04 a.m.
Hi Folks,
I finally have space in my new home to outfit a complete studio.
I am wondering what you place on your walls to help prevent sound from
carrying that does not damage the wall itself?
I share walls with others, so want to keep the sound in my studio as much
as possible.
Thoughts?
Karen
24 Feb
24 Feb
4:27 a.m.
On Fri, February 23, 2018 7:56 pm, Karen Lewellen wrote:
I am wondering what you place on your walls to help
prevent sound from
carrying that does not damage the wall itself?
Anything of reasonable thickness placed on the wall will be useful for
reducing high frequency reflections within the studio space, but will help
little if any at all with sound carrying through the wall. Primarily low
frequencies will be transmitted through walls, and the only help for that
is mass.
--
Chris Caudle
4:56 a.m.
On February 23, 2018 4:27:47 PM HST, Chris Caudle <chris(a)chriscaudle.org> wrote:
On Fri, February 23, 2018 7:56 pm, Karen Lewellen
wrote:
Yes, I understand that 4-foot thick solid stone walls are effective for that purpose ;)
--
David W. Jones
gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
http://dancingtreefrog.com
Sent from my Android device with F/LOSS K-9 Mail.
I am wondering what you place on your walls to
help prevent sound
from
carrying that does not damage the wall itself?
Anything of reasonable thickness placed on the wall will be useful for
reducing high frequency reflections within the studio space, but will
help
little if any at all with sound carrying through the wall. Primarily
low
frequencies will be transmitted through walls, and the only help for
that
is mass. 
9:32 a.m.
On Fri, 23 Feb 2018 16:56:51 -1000, David W. Jones wrote:
Yes, I understand that 4-foot thick solid stone walls
are effective
for that purpose ;)
German WWII high-rise bunker provide very well sound reduction by the
walls-ceiling-floor combination, but unless you don't want to die from
a CO intoxication, the acoustic pitfalls are the ventilation shafts.
--
$ pacman -Q linux{,-rt-securityink,-rt,-rt-pussytoes,-rt-cornflower}
linux 4.15.4-1
linux-rt-securityink 4.14.20_rt17-1
linux-rt 4.14.12_rt10-1
linux-rt-pussytoes 4.14.8_rt9-2
linux-rt-cornflower 4.11.12_rt16-1
1:05 p.m.
On February 23, 2018 9:32:20 PM HST, Ralf Mardorf <ralf.mardorf(a)alice-dsl.net>
wrote:
On Fri, 23 Feb 2018 16:56:51 -1000, David W. Jones
wrote:
The building that inspired my reference was that of a private home in Sacramento, CA, that
had solid stone walls that thick. But it had windows and doors and was only a single
floor, so much better ventilated than a bunker!
--
David W. Jones
gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
http://dancingtreefrog.com
Sent from my Android device with F/LOSS K-9 Mail.
Yes, I understand that 4-foot thick solid stone
walls are effective
for that purpose ;)
German WWII high-rise bunker provide very well sound reduction by the
walls-ceiling-floor combination, but unless you don't want to die from
a CO intoxication, the acoustic pitfalls are the ventilation shafts.
4:11 p.m.
On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 01:04:54 -1000, David W. Jones wrote:
On February 23, 2018 9:32:20 PM HST, Ralf Mardorf
<ralf.mardorf(a)alice-dsl.net> wrote:
Air circulation of a default German WWII high-rise bunker is very good.
The waste air escape and air intake of a default bunker works properly
and btw. a default bunker has got doors, too, just windows are only
provided by expensive controlled blasting operations and perhaps other
expensive workings, too. However, apart from small rehearsal rooms for
hobby musicians, I used huge audio studios in German WWII high-rise
bunkers, too. For the small rehearsal rooms for hobby musicians, as
well as the huge audio studios, the sound escapes through ventilation
shafts. You could turn of the gas heating or use electric radiators
instead and close the ventilation shafts for a while, but the smaller
the room/rooms is/are and the more people are working in such a bunker
studio, the shorter you could risk doing it. Inside a bunker without
windows (some have got windows nowadays), you loose track of time and
decades ago my friends and I didn't own gas measurement equipment.
On Fri, 23 Feb 2018 16:56:51 -1000, David W.
Jones wrote:
The building that inspired my reference was that of a private home in
Sacramento, CA, that had solid stone walls that thick. But it had
windows and doors and was only a single floor, so much better
ventilated than a bunker! Yes, I understand that 4-foot thick solid stone
walls are effective
for that purpose ;)
German WWII high-rise bunker provide very well sound reduction by the
walls-ceiling-floor combination, but unless you don't want to die
from a CO intoxication, the acoustic pitfalls are the ventilation
shafts. 
7:58 a.m.
On Fri, 23 Feb 2018 20:56:32 -0500 (EST)
Karen Lewellen <klewellen(a)shellworld.net> wrote:
I finally have space in my new home to outfit a
complete studio.
I am wondering what you place on your walls to help prevent sound
from carrying that does not damage the wall itself?
I share walls with others, so want to keep the sound in my studio as
much as possible.
There are various acoustic tiles. It will depend on what you do. Bass
frequencies, as mentioned, will pass through. But then, how much bass
do you need ? For instance I have a Yamaha HS8 subwoofer but it adds
only a touch in the sub 80Hz frequencies. It does not blast. Good
mixes are not done at a loud volume. And there's no need to have large
speakers that need to be driven to get good sound. Getting large
speakers and not driving them is worse than getting smaller speakers
that can output a full range through their drivers at regular volume.
The louder the more fatigue it generates for mixing. This said, it's
nice from time to time to play it loud but then that's a matter of
agreement with everybody else in the house, not a regular basis.
OTOH, if you play saxophone, trumpet, even violin and acoustic guitar,
acoustic tiling can do a certain job of blocking those frequencies.
For instance:
https://acousticalsolutions.com/
Not cheap. Get more info before moving on.
Cheers.
8:38 a.m.
Keep in mind that a ceiling and especially a floor connected with the
walls, could render all the sound reduction of the walls useless.
Apartments in new buildings usually provide very good sound reduction
for regular usage of an apartment, but even this often gets broken, if
the residents do-it-yourself install laminate flooring, since the sound
often gets transferred from the laminate flooring to the walls, because
the wrong installed laminate flooring has got contact with the walls.
To cut it short, sound reduction is full of pitfalls and suffers a
lot from the weakest link. IOW the sound reduction that works very well
for a friend, might not do it's job in your flat, regarding some hidden
pitfall.
--
$ pacman -Q linux{,-rt-securityink,-rt,-rt-pussytoes,-rt-cornflower}
linux 4.15.4-1
linux-rt-securityink 4.14.20_rt17-1
linux-rt 4.14.12_rt10-1
linux-rt-pussytoes 4.14.8_rt9-2
linux-rt-cornflower 4.11.12_rt16-1
7:40 p.m.
On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 00:57:43 -0500, jonetsu wrote:
Getting large speakers and not driving them is worse
than getting
smaller speakers that can output a full range through their drivers at
regular volume.
Let alone that much work could be done using headphones, before we even
need to use speakers, however, as you and other already pointed out. We
have good luck living in a rental flat with a peaceful neighbourhood +
if most important for us should be electric guitars and synth and not
drums and sax. An acoustic decoupled room inside the room for a sax
player might be possible in regards to costs and structural
engineering, but at some point there are limits regarding costs as well
as structural engineering.
7:58 p.m.
On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 18:40:07 +0100
Ralf Mardorf <ralf.mardorf(a)alice-dsl.net> wrote:
An acoustic decoupled room inside
the room for a sax player might be possible in regards to costs and
structural engineering, but at some point there are limits regarding
costs as well as structural engineering.
No matter how well done a booth sounds like a booth :)
IMO, you solve some problems to create others.
--
Joakim
8:11 p.m.
On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 18:58:08 +0100, Joakim Hernberg wrote:
On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 18:40:07 +0100
Ralf Mardorf <ralf.mardorf(a)alice-dsl.net> wrote:
You are absolutely right! This is just for a sax player who want's to
increase her free jazz abilities.
A few seconds ago I off-list wrote:
Begin forwarded message:
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 19:03:50 +0100
From: Ralf Mardorf
To: jonetsu
Subject: [off-list] [LAU] studio prep question.
I'm not good doing overtone singing and would like to practise doing
it, but since I have good luck with a peaceful neighbourhood and
some even like my guitar playing, I won't exhaust the good luck and
don't practise overtone singing.
To practise overtone singing a cabin would do the job ;).
--
$ pacman -Q linux{,-rt-securityink,-rt,-rt-pussytoes,-rt-cornflower}
linux 4.15.4-1
linux-rt-securityink 4.14.20_rt17-1
linux-rt 4.14.12_rt10-1
linux-rt-pussytoes 4.14.8_rt9-2
linux-rt-cornflower 4.11.12_rt16-1
An acoustic decoupled room inside
the room for a sax player might be possible in regards to costs and
structural engineering, but at some point there are limits regarding
costs as well as structural engineering.
No matter how well done a booth sounds like a booth :)
IMO, you solve some problems to create others. 
8:56 p.m.
On Sat, 24 Feb 2018, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
The sax player maybe wants one of these:
http://saxophone-mute.com/
There are some models that come complete with matching mics. Vocals are a
lot harder to deal with. Our ears made for listening to and understanding
voice more than anything and so are sensitive to oddities with voice. Our
brain probably (for most people) has more practice with voice that
anything else too.
... drumsets and battle pipes are a lost cause.
--
Len Ovens
www.ovenwerks.net
On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 18:58:08 +0100, Joakim Hernberg
wrote:
> No matter how well done a booth sounds like a booth :)
Well if you want the phone booth sound...
Yes the number of movies with someone out in a field sounding like they
are inside is way too high.
IMO, you solve
some problems to create others.
You are absolutely right! This is just for a sax player who want's to
increase her free jazz abilities.
9:35 p.m.
On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 10:56:17 -0800 (PST), Len Ovens wrote:
Yes the number of movies with someone out in a field
sounding like
they are inside is way too high.
You must have seen American movies dubbed to German :D. Often I'm
stunned, especially since I worked in this domain, so I'm aware that
ambient sound not that seldom, is on another track, than speech of the
actors. Reminds me of "Monty Python and the Holy Grail"-coconut-snyc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHFXG3r_0B8
10:02 p.m.
On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 10:56:17 -0800 (PST), Len Ovens wrote:
ROFL
8:37 p.m.
On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 18:58:08 +0100, Joakim Hernberg
wrote:
Keep in mind, the sax player could try out different pharses for
hours inside the booth and to record the sax, the musician could do it a
few seconds outside the booth.
On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 18:40:07 +0100
Ralf Mardorf <ralf.mardorf(a)alice-dsl.net> wrote:
You are absolutely right! This is just for a sax player who want's to
increase her free jazz abilities.
A few seconds ago I off-list wrote:
Begin forwarded message:
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 19:03:50 +0100
From: Ralf Mardorf
To: jonetsu
Subject: [off-list] [LAU] studio prep question.
I'm not good doing overtone singing and would like to practise
doing it, but since I have good luck with a peaceful neighbourhood and
some even like my guitar playing, I won't exhaust the good luck and
don't practise overtone singing.
To practise overtone singing a cabin would do the job ;). An acoustic decoupled room inside
the room for a sax player might be possible in regards to costs and
structural engineering, but at some point there are limits regarding
costs as well as structural engineering.
No matter how well done a booth sounds like a booth :)
IMO, you solve some problems to create others. 
25 Feb
25 Feb
5:54 a.m.
Ralf Mardorf <ralf.mardorf(a)alice-dsl.net> wrote:
You are absolutely right! This is just for a sax player who want's to
increase her free jazz abilities.
A few seconds ago I off-list wrote:
Begin forwarded message:
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 19:03:50 +0100
From: Ralf Mardorf
To: jonetsu
Subject: [off-list] [LAU] studio prep question.
I'm not good doing overtone singing and would like to practise
doing it, but since I have good luck with a peaceful neighbourhood and
some even like my guitar playing, I won't exhaust the good luck and
don't practise overtone singing.
To practise overtone singing a cabin would do the job ;). An acoustic decoupled room inside
the room for a sax player might be possible in regards to costs and
structural engineering, but at some point there are limits regarding
costs as well as structural engineering.
No matter how well done a booth sounds like a booth :)
IMO, you solve some problems to create others.
9:46 a.m.
On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 20:07:30 -0700, Bob van der Poel wrote:
Hope you aren't suggesting that the sax player
isn't a musician.
Maybe, at least I made recordings with a professional comic-strip
artist palying clarinet in a random style (he can't do better), insied
my non-acoustic-isolated home recording studio. In my experiences the
best thing we could do, is to keep on good terms with the neighbours.
I'm a lone wolf by nature, but I keep on good terms with the neighbours.
24 Feb
24 Feb
9:56 a.m.
On Fri, 23 Feb 2018 20:56:32 -0500 (EST)
Karen Lewellen <klewellen(a)shellworld.net> wrote:
Hi Folks,
I finally have space in my new home to outfit a complete studio.
I am wondering what you place on your walls to help prevent sound from
carrying that does not damage the wall itself?
I share walls with others, so want to keep the sound in my studio as much
as possible.
Thoughts?
Karen
I would suggest looking at the Sound On Sound website. This is a subject that
comes up frequently there, and there are very experienced sound engineers who
post articles there and answer questions.
The first thing you learn is that good sound control is not cheap, and there is
a lot of snake oil out there.
https://www.soundonsound.com
--
Will J Godfrey
http://www.musically.me.uk
Say you have a poem and I have a tune.
Exchange them and we can both have a poem, a tune, and a song.
10:20 a.m.
On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 07:56:26 +0000, Will Godfrey wrote:
The first thing you learn is that good sound control is
not cheap, and
there is a lot of snake oil out there.
Don't confuse "avoiding noise annoyance for the neighbours of your
studio" with "good sound conditions inside the audio studio". Good
audio related conditions inside the home studio are expensive, but if
you should be rich, those are easily to achieve. Sound reduction in
respect of not annoying neighbours, could be completely impossible, if
you are living in an urban sprawl apartment. As already pointed out,
humans still need to take breath inside a German WWII high-rise bunker.
10:19 a.m.
Hi Karen,
As others have said, this is a bit more complicated and there's a lot of
confusion and misinformation, some of it somewhat cynically and deliberately
stirred by people with products to sell. Here's a slightly longer answer:
There are two different issues: stopping sound escaping, and treating the
sound qualities within the room. The latter is to do with controlling
reverb and resonances to get an accurate representation of the sound
coming out of the speaker. Without this you'll get peaks and troughs in
the frequency spectrum along with ringing and booming at certain frequencies
related to the dimensions of your room. It's a complex subject with many
"silver bullet" solutions sold but this is what most things like foam
tiles, bass traps and the like are for.
The second issue, stopping sound escaping, is much harder. There is nothing
that will "absorb" sound to stop it escaping, you simply have to have an
air-tight room with very heavy duty walls, ceilings and floors. Depending
on how loud you want the music to be inside, and how loud you want that sound
to be on the other side (noting that bass is harder to contain), it's pretty
much about how thick abd heavy your walls, ceilings and floors are. Without
undertaking major construction work all you can really do is bring the weak
links up to that standard. Usually that means putting on a heavier door, and
trying to seal up air gaps. With floors you can make some gains by putting
"barrier mat" or "mass loaded vinyl" down, completely covering the
floor and
sealing gaps (then put carpet on top of it). Ceilings are best treated from
above, i.e. "soundproof" the upstairs floor, not your ceiling. Windows are
also big leaks and depending on how serious you are, blocking them up to
some extent or another is in order. Sound will, however, continue to leak
through vibration along joists and pipes, and if your walls are thing stud
partitions you'd be lucky to get much containment without e.g. building
another, heavier set of walls inside them.
If you want to contain the sound of an acoustic drumkit so that someone
next door can sleep while you play, you're probably out of luck. If you're
trying to reduce, but not necessarily eliminate) how audible you are next
door when you're monitoring at medium volumes, or making it so that someone
talking next door doesn't show up loudly on your microphone inputs, you might
be in with a better chance.
Sorry if this all sounds a bit negative and daunting! The point is that
there are things that can be done but without doing some research it's easy
to spend a lot of money on treatement that doesn't actually meet your
needs.
I can recommend picking up a second hand copy of Basic Home Studio Design
by Paul White (editor of Sound on Sound). It's not necessarily the greatest
book on the subject ever, but what it is small, clear, pragmatic and cheap,
and it gives you a quick overview of all of this stuff.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Basic-Home-Studio-Design-White/dp/1860742726
I'd offer to send my old copy but I've just moved house (coincidentally
to build a bigger studio) and all my books are still in boxes.
Best wishes,
Ben
8:36 p.m.
On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 14:26:54 +0100, Manuel Haible wrote:
This requires some calculation regarding structural
analysis
Unless you are living in a banana republic
- you need to hire a structural engineer
- you need to get a construction permit
In advanced civilisations it's not simply done by reading a few books
and/or Wikies and using a piece of jotting paper + a calculator.
8:48 p.m.
On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 14:26:54 +0100, Manuel Haible
wrote:
I wonder if Karen's home is a rental flat or a freehold flat. However,
Karen doesn't want to "damage the wall itself", so I asume Karen
doesn't
want to build a new building inside the room.
Résumé:
Just isolating the walls gains less, since at least the joints of walls
and the ceiling and especially the floor are week points.
This requires some calculation regarding
structural analysis
Unless you are living in a banana republic
- you need to hire a structural engineer
- you need to get a construction permit
In advanced civilisations it's not simply done by reading a few books
and/or Wikies and using a piece of jotting paper + a calculator.
10:07 p.m.
On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 19:48:48 +0100
Ralf Mardorf <ralf.mardorf(a)alice-dsl.net> wrote:
Résumé:
Just isolating the walls gains less, since at least the joints of
walls and the ceiling and especially the floor are week points.
And, soundproofing, in and out, as it was demonstrated here, contains a
lot of aspects and details asking for a very well defined set of needs
and environment to start with since the costs can skyrocket easily.
As for me I do not need any soundproofing. The only thing I did is
some loose acoustical treatment, like some 30x30cm foam panels on the
wall that receives the output from the speakers, behind where I sit,
and some more on the left wall close by as I turn to record acoustic
guitar with the mics.
10:28 p.m.
On Sun, 2018-02-25 at 15:07 -0500, jonetsu wrote:
On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 19:48:48 +0100
Ralf Mardorf <ralf.mardorf(a)alice-dsl.net> wrote:
Actually you and I are guitarists and synths players, sometimes doing
freakish singing, too. With and without some foam, but by savoring good
neighbourhood, you and I are able to handle this issue, but this
unlikely is the kind of acoustic issue Karen want's to solve. Joking
apart, how about a piano?
Résumé:
Just isolating the walls gains less, since at least the joints of
walls and the ceiling and especially the floor are week points.
And, soundproofing, in and out, as it was demonstrated here, contains a
lot of aspects and details asking for a very well defined set of needs
and environment to start with since the costs can skyrocket easily.
As for me I do not need any soundproofing. The only thing I did is
some loose acoustical treatment, like some 30x30cm foam panels on the
wall that receives the output from the speakers, behind where I sit,
and some more on the left wall close by as I turn to record acoustic
guitar with the mics.
9:11 p.m.
On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 19:48:48 +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
^^^^ :D
In Germany we have the term "Trittschall" and there's a German Wiki
about this toppic available,
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trittschall :). There also is the term
"Trittschall" in German audio engineering, but this is completely
unrelated to this thread, just a description for a pass filter, where
"tritt" is for "impact", not necessarily a "footstep".
On Sun, 25 Feb
2018 14:26:54 +0100, Manuel Haible wrote:
I wonder if Karen's home is a rental flat or a freehold flat. However,
Karen doesn't want to "damage the wall itself", so I asume Karen
doesn't want to build a new building inside the room.
Résumé:
Just isolating the walls gains less, since at least the joints of walls
and the ceiling and especially the floor are week points. This requires some calculation regarding
structural analysis
Unless you are living in a banana republic
- you need to hire a structural engineer
- you need to get a construction permit
In advanced civilisations it's not simply done by reading a few books
and/or Wikies and using a piece of jotting paper + a calculator. 
9:47 p.m.
On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 20:34:53 +0100, Manuel Haible wrote:
A pillar filled with sand as speaker stand. The speaker
could sit on
top of one meter sand. Attached a sketch for visualisation
Assuming Karen should play piano and a friend should be a singer and
they might want to perform someting like
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Tod_und_das_M%C3%A4dchen
not to mentioen the free jazz drum and sax session :D, any pictures for
a sandbag to do this job?
10:21 p.m.
On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 20:34:53 +0100
"Manuel Haible" <lacuna_(a)gmx.net> wrote:
A pillar filled with sand as speaker stand. The
speaker could sit on
top of one meter sand. Attached a sketch for visualisation
The only thing with that is twofold: that kind of speakers do not carry
bass frequencies. The basses are generally carried by a quite heavy
and large subwoofer that sits on the floor. The other aspect is that
for small speakers there are out there on the market 'cushions' that
sits on top of a speaker stand that would absorb any lows, saving
any trouble playing with sand. I do not use any for the HS5 speakers
since there's not much bass coming out of them anyways, most bass comes
out of the HS8s subwoofer.
So the problem would rather be with the subwoofer, for the people
living below. For me, the audio workplace is in the basement (making
underground music after all) and it's safe to assume that the
neighbours below are roughly at a distance close to the diameter of the
Earth.
10:36 p.m.
On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 15:21:33 -0500, jonetsu wrote:
The basses are generally carried by a quite heavy and
large subwoofer
that sits on the floor.
No subwoofer here, call the speakers I'm using as you want, either
professional studio nearfield monitors or simply conmsumer bookshelf
speakers.
26 Feb
26 Feb
7:38 a.m.
You didn't mention a budget.
I'm in a similar situation, I think. My band practices in my basement and
my neighbors have a baby. We have two electric guitars, bass, singer,
drum kit. Sometimes we play pretty loud!
My approach was to use DIY panels of 2" Roxul Rockboard 80, spaced (where
possible) 2" from the wall. I didn't bother with bass traps, maybe someday
I will, but currently have too many projects.
I made 2 x 4 frames to support the Roxul. The finished panels are light,
maybe 8 lbs apiece, and hang on the walls with picture wire and hooks, so
nothing is permanently attached.
Lot's of information on this site where i bought the stuff:
https://www.atsacoustics.com/item--Roxul-Rockboard-80-Case-of-6--RB80.html
Depending on your budget, you could also use some of the other Roxul
products, some available at one of the big box home improvement stores.
Mine is a relatively small room (maybe 10x12), so I just covered as much of
the walls as possible. It's pretty effective. I do some recording,
everyone close mic'd with the full band playing works pretty well.
End result ? When I asked the neighbors if the band was too loud, and the
answer I got was "oh, you have a band?"
Have fun.
-Bob
On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 12:36 PM, Ralf Mardorf <ralf.mardorf(a)alice-dsl.net>
wrote:
On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 15:21:33 -0500, jonetsu wrote:
The basses are generally carried by a quite heavy
and large subwoofer
that sits on the floor.
No subwoofer here, call the speakers I'm using as you want, either
professional studio nearfield monitors or simply conmsumer bookshelf
speakers.
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30 comments
12 participants
participants (12)
-
Ben Bell -
Bob Andres -
Bob van der Poel -
Chris Caudle -
David W. Jones -
Joakim Hernberg -
jonetsu -
Karen Lewellen -
Len Ovens -
Manuel Haible -
Ralf Mardorf -
Will Godfrey