20 Mar
2007
20 Mar
'07
11:16 a.m.
From: Ken Restivo <ken(a)restivo.org>
Subject: [linux-audio-user] Free-as-in-freedom B3, other than Bristol?
To: linux-audio-user(a)music.columbia.edu
Message-ID: <20070320054905.GC14350(a)bc.restivo.org>
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Is there such a thing as a free-as-in-freedom alternative (no matter how paltry) to the
Native Instruments "B4"?
I tried Bristol and... it looks gorgeous but IMHO sounds way too thin and cheezy.
There seem to be dozens of soundfonts out there with B3 sounds, but the ones I've
tried so far aren't very good. The free GigaSampler/LinuxSampler B3 samples I've
found are even worse.
If there's no good tonewheel simulator, are there any recommended good free
soundfonts of B3 sounds? Samples made with Leslie are useless to me, since I'll
simulate that using LADSPA plugins. If I go the soundfont route, I'd just need samples
of the organ line-out.
Beatrix is worth a go:
http://people.dsv.su.se/~fk/beatrix_home.html
Not a 'free' licence, but it runs on Linux and includes source code.
- -ken
20 Mar
20 Mar
8:41 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: B3 emulator
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On Tue, Mar 20, 2007 at 02:18:58PM +0000, philicorda wrote:
Hmm. Not only does it lack JACK support, but it doesn't even have ALSA support,
apparently.
It might be fun to try it out anyway, but it won't run without OSS /dev/midiX stuff.
From: Ken Restivo <ken(a)restivo.org>
Subject: [linux-audio-user] Free-as-in-freedom B3, other than Bristol?
To: linux-audio-user(a)music.columbia.edu
Message-ID: <20070320054905.GC14350(a)bc.restivo.org>
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Is there such a thing as a free-as-in-freedom alternative (no matter how paltry) to the
Native Instruments "B4"?
I tried Bristol and... it looks gorgeous but IMHO sounds way too thin and cheezy.
There seem to be dozens of soundfonts out there with B3 sounds, but the ones I've
tried so far aren't very good. The free GigaSampler/LinuxSampler B3 samples I've
found are even worse.
If there's no good tonewheel simulator, are there any recommended good free
soundfonts of B3 sounds? Samples made with Leslie are useless to me, since I'll
simulate that using LADSPA plugins. If I go the soundfont route, I'd just need samples
of the organ line-out.
Beatrix is worth a go:
http://people.dsv.su.se/~fk/beatrix_home.html
Not a 'free' licence, but it runs on Linux and includes source code.
Very odd indeed; I'll call it the "close-to-the-chest license". At least he
provides source though.
I suppose I could invest a few days of work and hack up a patch that'd add ALSA and
JACK client support, but it looks from his blog like he's already added ALSA support,
but hasn't "released" it yet.
Last release was 3 years ago, so I suppose I shouldn't hold my breath. Alas, if it
were a more conventional Open Source projects (i.e. with a SourceForge/GNA/Savannah site,
public SVN repository, etc.) it might have attracted developers or at least patches, and
would be farther along now, and I could just "svn up" it and build it to try it
out (as I've done with, say, ingen).
I'm also not clear whether his stuff is RT safe either, and whether it'd break if
JACK-ified. Nice thing about higher-level languages (ChucK, SuperCollider, CSound) is that
a lot of that plumbing is already taken care of.
His code is nice and clean though. And, joy of joys, it's in blessed, ordinary C (not
C++)! Also, he wisely moves a lot of functionality out of the codebase and into the config
files. And I love the approach of just eschewing the GUI entirely, and doing everything
through MIDI program changes and control surfaces instead. So it could be a nice package.
I've gotta wonder if it might be more productive to just hack up a no-frills tonewheel
emulator in ChucK. I'm not sure I'd need to go to the level of detail in modelling
that he's gone to (i.e. including the leakage from terminal strips), nor extra things
like distortion, reverb, or Leslie simulation since those are available through LADSPA.
- -ken
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10:51 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: B3 emulator
On Tue, 2007-03-20 at 16:39 -0700, Ken Restivo wrote:
I've gotta wonder if it might be more productive
to just hack up a no-frills tonewheel emulator in ChucK. I'm not sure I'd need to
go to the level of detail in modelling that he's gone to (i.e. including the leakage
from terminal strips), nor extra things like distortion, reverb, or Leslie simulation
since those are available through LADSPA.
I started to work on a tonewheel organ plugin. I don't have time to do
anything with it, and won't have time for a few months at least.
Please feel free to mail me off-list for a tarball of the source and a
brief description of what needs done.
Gordon
21 Mar
21 Mar
2:28 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: B3 emulator
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On Tue, 2007-03-20 at 16:39 -0700, Ken Restivo wrote:
Hmm, maybe this isn't such a great plan after all.
I played around with the TAP Rotary speaker plugin, and, uh, I guess the nicest thing I
can say about it is: it sounds nothing like a Leslie.
Likewise, the CAPS Cabinet emulators are excellent for simulating guitar amps, but the
unique "woody" tone of a Leslie just isn't among its emulated amp types. And
Hammond/Leslie distortion has somewhat different characteristics than guitar amp
distortion, IIRC.
So, nevermind.
I think I'll leave the Hammond B3 sounds for those rich people with deep pockets,
Windoze, VSTi, or GigaSample DVD's.
Who was it who said, "Make your limitations into your style"? That is deep
wisdom, indeed.
- -ken
I've gotta wonder if it might be more
productive to just hack up a no-frills tonewheel emulator in ChucK. I'm not sure
I'd need to go to the level of detail in modelling that he's gone to (i.e.
including the leakage from terminal strips), nor extra things like distortion, reverb, or
Leslie simulation since those are available through LADSPA.
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3:41 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: B3 emulator
On Tue, 2007-03-20 at 22:27 -0700, Ken Restivo wrote:
Hmm, maybe this isn't such a great plan after all.
I played around with the TAP Rotary speaker plugin, and,
uh, I guess the nicest thing I can say about it is: it sounds nothing
like a Leslie.
Likewise, the CAPS Cabinet emulators are excellent for simulating guitar
amps, but the unique "woody" tone of a Leslie just isn't among its emulated
amp types. And Hammond/Leslie distortion has somewhat different
characteristics than guitar amp distortion, IIRC.
I have no idea what a real B3 organ sounds like so I don't know if this
is good advice or not, but if you want to try one more I have a mostly
finished port of the AZR-3 organ VST plugin to LV2 which will be
released some time after the LV2 spec is done.
http://ll-plugins.nongnu.org/azr3.html
Download instructions here: http://ll-plugins.nongnu.org/index.html
--ll
On Tue,
2007-03-20 at 16:39 -0700, Ken Restivo wrote:
> I've gotta wonder if it might be more productive to just hack up a
no-frills tonewheel emulator in ChucK. I'm not sure I'd need to go to
the level of detail in modelling that he's gone to (i.e. including the
leakage from terminal strips), nor extra things like distortion,
reverb, or Leslie simulation since those are available through LADSPA.
8:04 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: B3 emulator
Ken Restivo wrote:
It might be fun to try it out anyway, but it won't
run without OSS
/dev/midiX stuff.
modprobe snd-seq-oss
Here this made virtual midi show up at /dev/snd/midiC3D0
Then in the (messy) beatrix dir change default.cfg to have this line
(there's one that beginning with a # and pointing at /dev/midi00 you can
change):
midi.device=/dev/snd/midiC3D0
Then I simply used "aconnect 32 28" to connect my usb keyboard to the
virtual card.
I suppose I could invest a few days of work and hack
up a patch
that'd add ALSA and JACK client support, but it looks from his blog
like he's already added ALSA support, but hasn't "released" it yet.
I never tried this software before (or even heard of it, possible due to
his strange license), but it's the best sounding native b3 emulation I
heard under linux so far.
On the web page I read this:
"The purpose of this rather restrictive license is simple: I do not want
multiple versions splitting off with my name in them when the program is
still under development. If you feel that you would like to make a
serious contribution to the project, please contact me."
Ok, so the latest (last?) release was 2 1/2 years ago. Maybe he's not
really working that much on the project anymore and could need a hand or
is willing to let others fork is to wrap it up? I think the following
needs to be done:
1) Make it work with alsa *and* jack
2) There's a strange alias type of artifact when the leslie is running,
that should be cleaned up.
Not a lot of work, and we would have a quite capable organ application,
something I've been missing alot from time to time.
I'll be willing to help with what I can.
What do you think? Should we go for the "If you feel that you would like
to make a serious contribution to the project, please contact me" and
drop him a mail?
--
peace, love & harmony
Atte
http://www.atte.dk | quintet: http://www.anagrammer.dk
| compositions: http://www.atte.dk/compositions
9:12 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: B3 emulator
Atte André Jensen wrote:
What do you think? Should we go for the "If you
feel that you would like
to make a serious contribution to the project, please contact me" and
drop him a mail?
Sorry, I couldn't resist. I dropped his a mail asking if would consider
opening up for other contributers. I suggested a regular gpl license
with a svn repo on sourceforge. I'll let you know what he thinks...
--
peace, love & harmony
Atte
http://www.atte.dk | quintet: http://www.anagrammer.dk
| compositions: http://www.atte.dk/compositions
12:49 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: B3 emulator
On 3/21/07, Atte André Jensen <atte.jensen(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Atte André Jensen wrote:
Not sure if this would be practical, but would there be a way of
adding the Beatrix synth engine into Bristol as an "alternate B3"
sound?
It seems inefficient to ignore Bristol and start development on an old
OSS app (unless there is some major inherent problem with Bristol
which I don't know of.)
Just my 2 cents.
-TimH
What do you think? Should we go for the "If
you feel that you would like
to make a serious contribution to the project, please contact me" and
drop him a mail?
Sorry, I couldn't resist. I dropped his a mail asking if would consider
opening up for other contributers. I suggested a regular gpl license
with a svn repo on sourceforge. I'll let you know what he thinks...
3:43 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: B3 emulator
Not sure if this would be practical, but would there be
a way of
adding the Beatrix synth engine into Bristol as an "alternate B3"
sound?
I would be quite happy to make the existing interface be a front end
beatrix, this is an awesome emulation and considerably more advanced than
the current bristol algorithm. The main issues I see would be an alsa and
jack midi and audio interface. Bristol has most of that now although I am
not sure if it would be interesting for bristol to subsume beatrix totally,
more just using brighton for the GUI could be the best option. The benefit
of not putting beatrix in bristol is that enhancements to beatrix itself
should not really be a separate stream to a bristol implementation, however
I very much doubt anybody else would want to maintain an integrated bristol
desig
I actually have this code and will have a look at how much work it would be
to have them interact.
unless there is some major inherent problem with
Bristol
which I don't know of.
Bristol is pretty much tied into its existing midi and audio interface
libraries that link primarily to OSS audio/midi, ALSA audio/midi and Jack
audio. This program uses its own audio and midi interface and a tight
integration would be problematic - it would have to be a separately
maintained stream and that is exactly what author wanted to avoid with the
mildly restrictive license. These interfaces would have to change to make
this a useful emulator - a jack interface is a minimal requirement.
As I said, I don't see why this should be an emulation of the bristol audio
engine however the GUI might look pretty enough to justify it driving
beatrix.
Nick.
_________________________________________________________________
FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar - get it now!
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3:34 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: B3 emulator
Atte André Jensen wrote:
Sorry, I couldn't resist. I dropped his a mail
asking if would consider
opening up for other contributers. I suggested a regular gpl license
with a svn repo on sourceforge. I'll let you know what he thinks...
Ok, he said he'd think about it, but have been working on an embedded
version and apparently this is it:
http://youtube.com/results?search_query=KEYB2
I don't know anything about his buisnessmodel, but it seams we might as
well forget about beatrix...
--
peace, love & harmony
Atte
http://www.atte.dk | quintet: http://www.anagrammer.dk
| compositions: http://www.atte.dk/compositions
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9 comments
7 participants
participants (7)
-
Atte André Jensen -
Gordon JC Pearce -
Ken Restivo -
Lars Luthman -
Nick Copeland -
philicorda -
Tim Howard