1 Sep
2009
1 Sep
'09
11:12 a.m.
"...the small world of Linux audio. The progress goes on, and now it is
2009."
I feel sorry for that kind of imperialist/progessist thinking..You are
right, we are in 2009 and some thinking should be different nowadays,
progress not always bring good things, if you can tell the difference
between good and bad..
Some vague third world thoughts
Daniel D2 - Brazil
2009/9/1 Michael Bohle <opendaw(a)jacklab.org>
----- original Nachricht --------
Betreff: [LAU] What Live is about (was: Re: ableton live in vmware)
Gesendet: Di, 01. Sep 2009
Von: Thorsten Wilms<t_w_(a)freenet.de>
On Mon, 2009-08-31 at 20:56 -0400, Brett McCoy
wrote:
http://www.kaosaudio.com/images/software/ableton-live-7-le-arrangement.png
I have to admit complete ignorance here, but what
is it about Live
that makes it advantageous over DAWs like Ardour, Reaper, Sonar, Pro
Tools, etc? Is it primarily loop/clip/synth based rather than a hard
disk recorder/mixer like a traditional DAW?
My knowledge is based on reading about it in magazines early on and much
later using the trial version for a bit.
When it came out, using software for live performance was seen as novel
idea (there might have been an "underground" scene thinking
differently).
The minimalistic graphics optimized for clearness were a revelation.
Dialogs are avoided, it's all in one window.
AFAIK it allows tempo changes and immediately stretches/shrinks all
audio to fit. Sony Acid might have been earlier with that.
You can also add markers on clips and then move these markers and the
material between markers will be stretched/shrunken to accommodate. The
version I tried would do so "only" linearly :)
I think the central new concept was having a matrix view, where you have
columns for tracks/instruments and rows for "Scenes".
Have a look at:
http://digisound.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/3-big-rocker.jpg
All those rectangles with play symbols are patterns.
If you look down the "Master" column, it should become clear what scenes
are about. Note that you can trigger any of the patterns any time.
There's a sync feature that can make sure patterns will be started on
the beat/next-measure.
There's also a "traditional" arrangement view:
Nowadays there's a collection of deeply integrated synth "plugins".
GUI-wise, you could always add such a matrix to an existing
DAW/sequencer (not a small project, of course). But you need a backend
that can play any pattern any time, with a sync-to-beat trigger feature.
And live time stretching.
So, none of the linux audio apps comes even close.
A set of separate tools can never be a replacement (except with a
not-seen-before sophisticated level of optional integration, perhaps).
People can talk about the real or perceived shortcomings of linux audio
tools all day. Doesn't change a thing. The vague and sometimes silly
comparisons and the very foggy ideas what some commercial apps actually
offer are damn frustrating. Would surprise me to read something *new*.
Thank you for this. It makes me crazy when I read "You don't need fancy
apps like this, hydrogen is good enough" or "sooperlooper do the job".
I use AL because it is a masterpiece of music software and it fits my needs
for a creative workflow. It is the state of art today and contemporary
technology for musicians. It is no hype, it is an answer for the question:
How you can make music without touching the limits of software.
When I read "just put together a few apps on Linux with JACK and you have
the same" it make me clear that most of the Linux fanboys here are never
seen or used modern software and they don't know what they are talking
about. Even David Philips never seen Garageband, but he talk about. It is no
good idea to hide behind the small world of Linux audio. The progress goes
on, and now it is 2009.
Michael
--
Thorsten Wilms
thorwil's design for free software:
http://thorwil.wordpress.com/
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1 Sep
1 Sep
11:20 a.m.
New subject: Fwd: What Live is about (was: Re: ableton live in vmware)
On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 9:12 AM, Daniel Roviriego<danifernando(a)gmail.com> wrote:
"...the small world of Linux audio. The progress goes on, and now it is
2009."
I feel sorry for that kind of imperialist/progessist thinking..You are
right, we are in 2009 and some thinking should be different nowadays,
progress not always bring good things, if you can tell the difference
between good and bad..
You use what works best for you. Just because you can churn out music
in mere minutes in Ableton Live doesn't mean it's *good* music (no
slam at users of the product, I studied the site this morning and did
hear some good stuff on there), just like in the world of animation,
just because you can churn out an animation using Flash doesn't mean
it's good animation. I wouldn't base my entire studio workflow just on
Live, although as an adjunct application to "traditional" audio
applications (and hardware) it would be a useful tool for some things.
But it's not a panacea, it won't suddenly turn you into Tangerine
Dream or Kraftwerk or John Williams by any stretch of the imagination.
-- Brett
------------------------------------------------------------
"In the rhythm of music a secret is hidden;
If I were to divulge it, it would overturn the world."
-- Jelaleddin Rumi
12:08 p.m.
New subject: Fwd: What Live is about (was: Re: ableton live in vmware)
On Tuesday 01 September 2009 09:20 am, Brett McCoy wrote:
You use what works best for you. Just because you can
churn out music
in mere minutes in Ableton Live doesn't mean it's *good* music
I think this is a pretty dangerous argument to make, considering that
spending hours patching kernels and tweaking JACK latency is not exactly a
guarantee of listenable results either.
But it's not a panacea, it won't suddenly turn
you into Tangerine
Dream or Kraftwerk or John Williams by any stretch of the imagination.
Nope, but if you are the next undiscovered John Williams and not a computer
scientist, what I'm seeing is that Ableton will probably get in your way
less than half a dozen loosely connected programs with few if any sensible
default settings and little to no way to save all their states at once
(LASH is not there and may never get there) will.
Someone working in the styles of the other two would probably be okay with
LMMS for a while, though.
Rob
12:16 p.m.
New subject: Fwd: What Live is about (was: Re: ableton live in vmware)
On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 10:04 AM, Rob<lau(a)kudla.org> wrote:
Nope, but if you are the next undiscovered John
Williams and not a computer
scientist, what I'm seeing is that Ableton will probably get in your way
less than half a dozen loosely connected programs with few if any sensible
default settings and little to no way to save all their states at once
with all due respect, if someone is the next undiscovered john
williams then their choice of software is likely to play a large role
in their "discovery". somebody like williams has a huge set of
compositional skills that have absolutely nothing to do with software
tools.
moreover, what happens is someone is the next iannis xenakis or
alternatively the next steve reich? actually, reich is probably a bad
example, my guess it that he would have loved Live during the early
part of his career. lets pick, say, gyorgy ligeti instead. do you
seriously think that Live has anything whatsoever to offer such
composers when compared to "academic" sound tools like CSound,
SuperCollider or Pure Data?
so as usual, it all depends on context. Live is a wickedly good
program, created from a very great vision, and with very great skill.
But its one program among many, one tool in a toolbox, and its not
the answer to any and every music software problem. even one of its
originators told me that if you were actually an audio engineer rather
than a musician, and/or were doing straight tracking of live
musicians, then although Live would work, it would probably not be the
best tool choice.
12:19 p.m.
New subject: Fwd: What Live is about (was: Re: ableton live in vmware)
On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 10:16 AM, Paul Davis<paul(a)linuxaudiosystems.com> wrote:
OOPS
with all due respect, if someone is the next
undiscovered john
williams then their choice of software is likely to play a large role
^^^^^
UNLIKELY
freudian slip? :)
12:22 p.m.
New subject: Fwd: What Live is about (was: Re: ableton live in vmware)
On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 10:16 AM, Paul Davis<paul(a)linuxaudiosystems.com> wrote:
so as usual, it all depends on context. Live is a
wickedly good
program, created from a very great vision, and with very great skill.
But its one program among many, one tool in a toolbox, and its not
the answer to any and every music software problem. even one of its
originators told me that if you were actually an audio engineer rather
than a musician, and/or were doing straight tracking of live
musicians, then although Live would work, it would probably not be the
best tool choice.
That's precisely my point I was saying earlier. :-) If I were doing
more loop-based music, I'd be all over something like Live (or some
Linux approximation), but I am doing progressive heavy metal and
orchestral/symphonic music, so Live (or some Linux approximation)
would not work so well doing that. Not saying that kind of music
*can't* be done using something like Live, it's just not really suited
for it (at least going by what I read on the website), whereas
traditional DAW & sequencer apps work very well for that.
-- Brett
------------------------------------------------------------
"In the rhythm of music a secret is hidden;
If I were to divulge it, it would overturn the world."
-- Jelaleddin Rumi
12:27 p.m.
New subject: Fwd: What Live is about (was: Re: ableton live in vmware)
Here's a quote from a guy I once met in an audio lecture:
"Ableton is good for Metal"
Woops?
12:31 p.m.
New subject: Fwd: What Live is about (was: Re: ableton live in vmware)
On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 10:27 AM, Ray Rashif<schivmeister(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Here's a quote from a guy I once met in an audio
lecture:
"Ableton is good for Metal"
Woops?
So are Ardour and Rosegarden :-)
-- Brett
------------------------------------------------------------
"In the rhythm of music a secret is hidden;
If I were to divulge it, it would overturn the world."
-- Jelaleddin Rumi
11:04 p.m.
New subject: Fwd: What Live is about (was: Re: ableton live in vmware)
This is pretty good discussion. However, IMHO, the concentration should be
on new apps and new directions that are not quite covered yet. I would
encourage the linux audio developer community to embrace what works well in
the Windows/Mac Audio world and do new things that provides new capabilities
for the musician (which Linux could do really well).
Since we're discussing Rube Goldberg, I probably have the weirdest setup on
the planet. I've got 4 old 8 channel soundcards hooked up in parallel with
an alsa driver that isn't part of alsa. I'm using PlanetCCRMA Fedora Core
8 (I'm waiting for 10 or 11 to settle down) and a 64 bit kernel. I've
managed somehow to get WineASIO/Jackbridge to work, so I can also run Reaper
and get VST effects. I can run a lot of programs (like Ableton Live) using
WineASIO. I haven't messed with VMWare/Xen/KVM yet, and I may not if my
current setup works out. There is an AWFUL lot of things I haven't figured
out yet (like how to get automation to happen with Ardour).
I would suggest that the best approach would be taking various audio
streaming formats (such as ADAT, TDIF, etc) and have them reformatted into a
standard that can be used with a low cost interface (such as eSATA,
Ethernet). ATA over Ethernet is a good model to use. It would be possible
with modern processors to put a virtual machine inside a Windows box and
have a fake place for the audio to be routed and could grab the
esata/Ethernet port for our own evil purposes. If we allow Ableton Live to
do what it is good at and incorporate it's outputs into the evil Linux
'Master Plan', pretty soon we'll suck up all the audio and everyone will
absolutely require this neat thing we've got. I think if too much energy
is spent cloning a good idea, we will always be a rev behind and never with
as good a quality as the original.
BTW - Many of the really good musicians I know have all they can do to put
something in FaceBook and a lot of them don't even have email accounts (I'm
jealous of this - How to they spend their day?). Linux audio probably has
300-1000 serious devotees on the planet compared to several million with
Windows audio (it's the price you gotta pay for being 'right'). This is the
ultimate 'paper covers rock' scenario because the best we can hope for it to
provide a cover/coat of paint over the larger Windows Audio. Maybe we
should develop a 'Thermopylae' theme.
I am obviously an OS agnostic in a Linux religious discussion.
Just my 2cents worth...
Mike Mazarick
11:28 p.m.
New subject: Fwd: What Live is about (was: Re: ableton live in vmware)
On 09/02/2009 11:04 AM, Mike Mazarick wrote:
This is pretty good discussion. However, IMHO, the
concentration should be
on new apps and new directions that are not quite covered yet. I would
encourage the linux audio developer community to embrace what works well in
the Windows/Mac Audio world and do new things that provides new capabilities
for the musician (which Linux could do really well).
Since we're discussing Rube Goldberg, I probably have the weirdest setup on
the planet.
I thought the point of a Rube Goldberg was making one. With Jack
everyone has that opportunity.
I've got 4 old 8 channel soundcards hooked up in
parallel with
an alsa driver that isn't part of alsa. I'm using PlanetCCRMA Fedora Core
8 (I'm waiting for 10 or 11 to settle down) and a 64 bit kernel. I've
managed somehow to get WineASIO/Jackbridge to work, so I can also run Reaper
and get VST effects. I can run a lot of programs (like Ableton Live) using
WineASIO. I haven't messed with VMWare/Xen/KVM yet, and I may not if my
current setup works out. There is an AWFUL lot of things I haven't figured
out yet (like how to get automation to happen with Ardour).
I would suggest that the best approach would be taking various audio
streaming formats (such as ADAT, TDIF, etc) and have them reformatted into a
standard that can be used with a low cost interface (such as eSATA,
Ethernet). ATA over Ethernet is a good model to use. It would be possible
with modern processors to put a virtual machine inside a Windows box and
have a fake place for the audio to be routed and could grab the
esata/Ethernet port for our own evil purposes. If we allow Ableton Live to
do what it is good at and incorporate it's outputs into the evil Linux
'Master Plan', pretty soon we'll suck up all the audio and everyone will
absolutely require this neat thing we've got.
In a way we are already at the pinnacle of available resources/time
being invested into this approach.
I think if too much energy
is spent cloning a good idea, we will always be a rev behind and never with
as good a quality as the original.
This is a potential problem but with Open source development we are
usually just scratching a personal itch and not many of us are paid to
invest much energy into keeping ahead of the game. The inherent
structure of libre software development is a perfect platform for
innovation but innovation also requires some form of motivation. That's
where money is usually a good lubricant. If we wanted to fast track
innovation in Linux Audio applications we probably have to get people to
give us lots of money to make stuff happen. There are various businesses
and projects working on this angle too and imo momentum is building
nicely but there is still room for improvement.
I note that since the changes to the ardour download and financial
contributions system there has been an increase in monthly income which
is excellent as the ardour development has contributed to many of the
great advances that we have seen in Linux Audio and will continue to
take a large roll in that with a continuous revenue stream.
I would like to see that system replicated spread across more Linux
Audio applications as that could be a significant motivating factor. I
know it has motivated me to divert some more of my time back into Linux
Audio. Not because I am getting any of that money but because I can see
the level of support that people have for the work that is being done
and a realtively accurate gauge of what the potential for the platform
is for making a living.
Patrick Shirkey
Boost Hardware Ltd
3:08 p.m.
New subject: Fwd: What Live is about (was: Re: ableton live in vmware)
On Tue, 1 Sep 2009, Brett McCoy wrote:
That's precisely my point I was saying earlier.
:-) If I were doing
more loop-based music, I'd be all over something like Live (or some
Linux approximation), but I am doing progressive heavy metal and
orchestral/symphonic music, so Live (or some Linux approximation)
would not work so well doing that. Not saying that kind of music
*can't* be done using something like Live, it's just not really suited
for it (at least going by what I read on the website), whereas
traditional DAW & sequencer apps work very well for that.
That's one reason that I like that in Ardour, you can make the timeline
rulers for bars/beats/etc. invisible. A lot of the music I record has
time that is not generated by a machine, and the DAW is not syncing to
anything. A beat timeline is useless for projects like that.
--
+ Brent A. Busby + "We've all heard that a million monkeys
+ UNIX Systems Admin + banging on a million typewriters will
+ University of Chicago + eventually reproduce the entire works of
+ Physical Sciences Div. + Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet,
+ James Franck Institute + we know this is not true." -Robert Wilensky
12:17 p.m.
New subject: Fwd: What Live is about (was: Re: ableton live in vmware)
On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 10:04 AM, Rob<lau(a)kudla.org> wrote:
On Tuesday 01 September 2009 09:20 am, Brett McCoy
wrote:
To be honest, I haven't had to worry about patching kernels or
tweaking latency with Jack in quite a while... using something like
Planet CCRMA or similar pretty much gives you a decent starting point
for making music out of the box, moresore than Windows. If you have
ever had to tweak a Windows machine for audio (an out of the box
Windows machine sucks for audio, there's a lot you need to do to get
good performance out of XP and especially Vista). Can't speak for Mac,
since I don't use it, but it seems to be a better solution out of the
box than Windows!
-- Brett
------------------------------------------------------------
"In the rhythm of music a secret is hidden;
If I were to divulge it, it would overturn the world."
-- Jelaleddin Rumi
You use what works best for you. Just because you
can churn out music
in mere minutes in Ableton Live doesn't mean it's *good* music
I think this is a pretty dangerous argument to make, considering that
spending hours patching kernels and tweaking JACK latency is not exactly a
guarantee of listenable results either. 
12:33 p.m.
New subject: Fwd: What Live is about (was: Re: ableton live in vmware)
On Tue, 1 Sep 2009, Rob wrote:
Nope, but if you are the next undiscovered John
Williams and not a computer
scientist, what I'm seeing is that Ableton will probably get in your way
less than half a dozen loosely connected programs with few if any sensible
default settings and little to no way to save all their states at once
(LASH is not there and may never get there) will.
Agreed. FWIW, this discussion should probably be on LAD... because a lot
of the folks making big contributions to the thread are saying, "Ableton
is really good. What could we *do* to get Linux audio that good?"
But... I could see how on the LAU list people might get a little peevish
at others setting up huge Rube Goldberg systems to try and emulate the
functionality of an innovative and monolithic app like Live. I don't
blame you. And: you're right. :-)
Still, this thread is not idle chatter -- even when people talk about a
few things that are a little over their head (because they're inspired).
This sort of discussion is how apps like JACK get born.
For anyone that's keeping score, we've started doing planning on the
Hydrogen Dev list. Yes, the Hydrogen back-end is not up to it, yet.
However, upgrading the back-end was *already* planned before we started
this discussion. And who knows, when we get done we might sit back and
say, "Hmmm... Hydrogen isn't right for this." But, ATM, some of us who
know Hydrogen well think it could be a good fit.
Peace,
Gabriel
5377
days inactive
5377
days old
linux-audio-user@lists.linuxaudio.org
12 comments
9 participants
participants (9)
-
Brent Busby -
Brett McCoy -
Daniel Roviriego -
Gabriel M. Beddingfield -
Mike Mazarick -
Patrick Shirkey -
Paul Davis -
Ray Rashif -
Rob