11 Aug
2013
11 Aug
'13
10:57 a.m.
It's been a while since I did anything with linux audio, or even had much to do with
music, but now I'm attempting to listen to music that has been recently released, and
find it unlistenable.
The mastering! The compression! It burns!! It burns!!! Auugh, my ears!!
I mean, it's obviously distorted. I can hear the clipping. People are putting out
released tracks that I can't listen to without getting a splitting headache.
Is there any such thing that I might be able to pipe into an ALSA or JACK setup, which
would repair these broken tracks?
It's sad. It's like people are mastering for laptop speakers, cellphone speakers,
or earbuds, and nothing else.
FWIW, as an example, I've just stumbled across the music of Amanda Palmer, downloaded
her latest album, I think the music is great, or could be, but I can't listen to it
because of the mastering.
-ken
11 Aug
11 Aug
1:39 p.m.
On Sun, Aug 11, 2013 at 01:57:10AM -0700, Ken Restivo wrote:
Is there any such thing that I might be able to pipe
into an
ALSA or JACK setup, which would repair these broken tracks?
Given the ways such extreme compression etc. is done, the
result is probably beyond repair.
In the case of Amanda Palmer, you'll find both and fan
and pro contact info on her website. Just ask or complain !
Ciao,
--
FA
A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia.
It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris
and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)
12 Aug
12 Aug
2:10 a.m.
It's not possible to "undo" the mastering job once it has been bounced.
You'll sadly have to live with it.
Sorry for your ears,
-R
On Sun, Aug 11, 2013 at 4:57 AM, Ken Restivo <ken(a)restivo.org> wrote:
It's been a while since I did anything with linux
audio, or even had much
to do with music, but now I'm attempting to listen to music that has been
recently released, and find it unlistenable.
The mastering! The compression! It burns!! It burns!!! Auugh, my ears!!
I mean, it's obviously distorted. I can hear the clipping. People are
putting out released tracks that I can't listen to without getting a
splitting headache.
Is there any such thing that I might be able to pipe into an ALSA or JACK
setup, which would repair these broken tracks?
It's sad. It's like people are mastering for laptop speakers, cellphone
speakers, or earbuds, and nothing else.
FWIW, as an example, I've just stumbled across the music of Amanda Palmer,
downloaded her latest album, I think the music is great, or could be, but I
can't listen to it because of the mastering.
-ken
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Linux-audio-user(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-user
2:47 a.m.
2013/8/11 Ralph Bluecoat <ralphbluecoat(a)gmail.com>om>:
It's not possible to "undo" the
mastering job once it has been bounced.
You'll sadly have to live with it.
Sorry for your ears,
-R
On Sun, Aug 11, 2013 at 4:57 AM, Ken Restivo <ken(a)restivo.org> wrote:
see this post from Claude Young:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/114569084697251798925/posts/czFWAWSvBXY
I haven't tried it...
no linux version though
It's been a while since I did anything with linux audio, or even had much
to do with music, but now I'm attempting to listen to music that has been
recently released, and find it unlistenable.
The mastering! The compression! It burns!! It burns!!! Auugh, my ears!!
I mean, it's obviously distorted. I can hear the clipping. People are
putting out released tracks that I can't listen to without getting a
splitting headache.
Is there any such thing that I might be able to pipe into an ALSA or JACK
setup, which would repair these broken tracks?
It's sad. It's like people are mastering for laptop speakers, cellphone
speakers, or earbuds, and nothing else.
FWIW, as an example, I've just stumbled across the music of Amanda Palmer,
downloaded her latest album, I think the music is great, or could be, but I
can't listen to it because of the mastering.
-ken
_______________________________________________
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Linux-audio-user(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-user
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3:48 a.m.
Diego Simak wrote:
see this post from Claude Young:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/114569084697251798925/posts/czFWAWSvBXY
This seems to be able to reverse the effect of equalisation, known to
DSPers as linear time-invariant (or at least slowly varying) filtering.
It will *not* reverse the effect of compression which which is rapidly
time varying and is not filtering.
Erik
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Erik de Castro Lopo
http://www.mega-nerd.com/
4:12 a.m.
2013/8/11 Erik de Castro Lopo <mle+la(a)mega-nerd.com>om>:
Diego Simak wrote:
thanks for your explanation
see this post from Claude Young:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/114569084697251798925/posts/czFWAWSvBXY
This seems to be able to reverse the effect of equalisation, known to
DSPers as linear time-invariant (or at least slowly varying) filtering.
It will *not* reverse the effect of compression which which is rapidly
time varying and is not filtering.
Erik
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Erik de Castro Lopo
http://www.mega-nerd.com/
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8:21 a.m.
On 08/11/2013 08:47 PM, Diego Simak wrote:
see this post from Claude Young:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/114569084697251798925/posts/czFWAWSvBXY
I haven't tried it...
no linux version though
Note that this is essentially just an EQ. It is not going to have any
effect at all on compression/limiting. It is also not going to
eliminate the phase shifts introduced by the original EQs, but is simply
going to add more. And since there is no way to get an exact complement
to the original curve, you'll not only be adding more phase anomalies,
but also new ones in areas that had none.
It will also be impossible to eliminate the ringing introduced by the
original EQ in any areas that were originally boosted.
--
---
My bands, CD projects, music, news, and pictures:
http://www.lateralforce.com
My blog, with commentary on a variety of things, including audio,
mixing, equipment, etc, is at:
http://audioandmore.wordpress.com
Staat heißt das kälteste aller kalten Ungeheuer. Kalt lügt es auch;
und diese Lüge kriecht aus seinem Munde: 'Ich, der Staat, bin das Volk.'
- [Friedrich Nietzsche]
10:28 a.m.
Al Thompson wrote:
On 08/11/2013 08:47 PM, Diego Simak wrote:
I agree so far.
see this post from Claude Young:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/114569084697251798925/posts/czFWAWSvBXY
I haven't tried it...
no linux version though
Note that this is essentially just an EQ. It is not going to have any
effect at all on compression/limiting. It is also not going to
eliminate the phase shifts introduced by the original EQs, but is simply
going to add more.
Not totally true. A lot of research has been done on correcting for
magnitude and phase response. For example these two papers:
http://guillaume.perrin74.free.fr/ChalmersMT2012/Papers/JAES_52(10)_2004_IF…
http://web.uvic.ca/~hgiesbre/499/13763.pdf
I haven't kept up with this are of research, but I would not be
surprised if more progress has been made since 2006.
Erik
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Erik de Castro Lopo
http://www.mega-nerd.com/
11:01 a.m.
Am 12.08.2013 10:50, schrieb Ralf Mardorf:
On Mon, 2013-08-12 at 18:28 +1000, Erik de Castro Lopo
wrote:
Of course they do: *while* you compress. But contradicting EQ-settings
*after* the compression is done and rendered wont undo the rendered
compression.
Al Thompson wrote:
> Note that this is essentially just an EQ. It is not going to have any
> effect at all on compression/limiting.
EQ settings do effect compression.
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4:40 p.m.
On Mon, 2013-08-12 at 11:01 +0200, Hartmut Noack wrote:
Am 12.08.2013 10:50, schrieb Ralf Mardorf:
That's not completely true. Usage of EQs can cause a less or more
compressed like mix, while no compressor is included to the signal
chain.
On Mon, 2013-08-12 at 18:28 +1000, Erik de Castro
Lopo wrote:
Of course they do: *while* you compress. But contradicting EQ-settings
*after* the compression is done and rendered wont undo the rendered
compression. Al Thompson wrote:
> Note that this is essentially just an EQ. It is not going to have any
> effect at all on compression/limiting.
EQ settings do effect compression.
4:45 p.m.
On Mon, 2013-08-12 at 16:40 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
On Mon, 2013-08-12 at 11:01 +0200, Hartmut Noack
wrote:
PS: For sure using an EQ won't decompress a compressed signal, that
isn't my point.
Am 12.08.2013 10:50, schrieb Ralf Mardorf:
That's not completely true. Usage of EQs can cause a less or more
compressed like mix, while no compressor is included to the signal
chain. On Mon, 2013-08-12 at 18:28 +1000, Erik de Castro
Lopo wrote:
Of course they do: *while* you compress. But contradicting EQ-settings
*after* the compression is done and rendered wont undo the rendered
compression. Al Thompson wrote:
> Note that this is essentially just an EQ. It is not going to have any
> effect at all on compression/limiting.
EQ settings do effect compression.
12:28 p.m.
On Mon, Aug 12, 2013 at 06:28:44PM +1000, Erik de Castro Lopo wrote:
The techniques described in boht papers are fairly standard,
and are used in e.g. DRC.
In both cases the response to be inverted is known (a measured
room or loudspeaker response).
Ciao,
--
FA
A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia.
It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris
and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)
5:02 p.m.
On 08/12/2013 04:28 AM, Erik de Castro Lopo wrote:
The problem is that if you know EXACTLY what curves were applied
originally, AND you know the specific EQ algorithms used, you MAY be
able to make some corrections. But, the chances of knowing EXACTLY what
curves (freq. center point, filter type, slope, and bandwidth), you
can't make those corrections, and are just adding still more processing
to the mix.
--
---
My bands, CD projects, music, news, and pictures:
http://www.lateralforce.com
My blog, with commentary on a variety of things, including audio,
mixing, equipment, etc, is at:
http://audioandmore.wordpress.com
Staat heißt das kälteste aller kalten Ungeheuer. Kalt lügt es auch;
und diese Lüge kriecht aus seinem Munde: 'Ich, der Staat, bin das Volk.'
- [Friedrich Nietzsche]
It is also not going to
eliminate the phase shifts introduced by the original EQs, but is simply
going to add more.
Not totally true. A lot of research has been done on correcting
for
magnitude and phase response. For example these two papers:
http://guillaume.perrin74.free.fr/ChalmersMT2012/Papers/JAES_52(10)_2004_IF…
http://web.uvic.ca/~hgiesbre/499/13763.pdf
I haven't kept up with this are of research, but I would not be
surprised if more progress has been made since 2006.
5:47 p.m.
On Mon, Aug 12, 2013 at 11:02:13AM -0400, Al Thompson wrote:
The problem is that if you know EXACTLY what curves
were applied
originally, AND you know the specific EQ algorithms used, you MAY be
able to make some corrections. But, the chances of knowing EXACTLY what
curves (freq. center point, filter type, slope, and bandwidth), you
can't make those corrections, and are just adding still more processing
to the mix.
Which, if you use your ears and a bit of intelligence, has a good
chance of cancelling at least part of what was done, even if it's
not exact. We're not searching for a crypto key here.
Ciao,
--
FA
A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia.
It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris
and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)
11:06 a.m.
Am 12.08.2013 02:47, schrieb Diego Simak:
2013/8/11 Ralph Bluecoat
<ralphbluecoat(a)gmail.com>om>:
I think this smells a bit like snake-oil.
The EQ/Filtering/Compression/Anything in a rendered signal *is* the
signal now and there is no way telling, what aspect of the signal is
introduced by the filtering and what part is the pristine, "hifi
original". You can make estimations based on common "standards" and try
to reverse, what *you* dislike in the signal but you cannot effectively
restore the signal before mastering.
It's not possible to "undo" the
mastering job once it has been bounced.
You'll sadly have to live with it.
Sorry for your ears,
-R
On Sun, Aug 11, 2013 at 4:57 AM, Ken Restivo <ken(a)restivo.org> wrote:
see this post from Claude Young:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/114569084697251798925/posts/czFWAWSvBXY
It's been a while since I did anything with linux audio, or even had much
to do with music, but now I'm attempting to listen to music that has been
recently released, and find it unlistenable.
The mastering! The compression! It burns!! It burns!!! Auugh, my ears!!
I mean, it's obviously distorted. I can hear the clipping. People are
putting out released tracks that I can't listen to without getting a
splitting headache.
Is there any such thing that I might be able to pipe into an ALSA or JACK
setup, which would repair these broken tracks?
It's sad. It's like people are mastering for laptop speakers, cellphone
speakers, or earbuds, and nothing else.
FWIW, as an example, I've just stumbled across the music of Amanda Palmer,
downloaded her latest album, I think the music is great, or could be, but I
can't listen to it because of the mastering.
-ken
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-user mailing list
Linux-audio-user(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-user
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Linux-audio-user(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-user
I haven't tried it...
no linux version though
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12:02 p.m.
On Mon, Aug 12, 2013 at 11:06:57AM +0200, Hartmut Noack wrote:
I think this smells a bit like snake-oil.
More than a bit.
Ciao,
--
FA
A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia.
It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris
and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)
2:25 p.m.
2013/8/12 Hartmut Noack <zettberlin(a)linuxuse.de>de>:
Am 12.08.2013 02:47, schrieb Diego Simak:
very clear your explanation, thanks
Shame on you Claude Young, shame on you!
;-D
2013/8/11 Ralph Bluecoat
<ralphbluecoat(a)gmail.com>om>:
I think this smells a bit like snake-oil.
The EQ/Filtering/Compression/Anything in a rendered signal *is* the
signal now and there is no way telling, what aspect of the signal is
introduced by the filtering and what part is the pristine, "hifi
original". You can make estimations based on common "standards" and try
to reverse, what *you* dislike in the signal but you cannot effectively
restore the signal before mastering.
It's not possible to "undo" the
mastering job once it has been bounced.
You'll sadly have to live with it.
Sorry for your ears,
-R
On Sun, Aug 11, 2013 at 4:57 AM, Ken Restivo <ken(a)restivo.org> wrote:
see this post from Claude Young:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/114569084697251798925/posts/czFWAWSvBXY
It's been a while since I did anything with linux audio, or even had much
to do with music, but now I'm attempting to listen to music that has been
recently released, and find it unlistenable.
The mastering! The compression! It burns!! It burns!!! Auugh, my ears!!
I mean, it's obviously distorted. I can hear the clipping. People are
putting out released tracks that I can't listen to without getting a
splitting headache.
Is there any such thing that I might be able to pipe into an ALSA or JACK
setup, which would repair these broken tracks?
It's sad. It's like people are mastering for laptop speakers, cellphone
speakers, or earbuds, and nothing else.
FWIW, as an example, I've just stumbled across the music of Amanda Palmer,
downloaded her latest album, I think the music is great, or could be, but I
can't listen to it because of the mastering.
-ken
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-user mailing list
Linux-audio-user(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-user
_______________________________________________
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Linux-audio-user(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
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3:37 a.m.
I'm a backer of the Theater Is Evil release. The compression doesn't bother me,
but many times I wish they'd brought her voice up in the mix.
But, yeah, contact her and let her know. After released the Kickstarter deluxe version,
she did go back and redo one of the tracks (don't remember which one right now), it
came out much better than the original.
No Linux involved in her work - she's a Mac-based musician, based on the photos
I've seen.
--
david
gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
---- Ken Restivo <ken(a)restivo.org> wrote:
It's been a while since I did anything with linux
audio, or even had much to do with music, but now I'm attempting to listen to music
that has been recently released, and find it unlistenable.
The mastering! The compression! It burns!! It burns!!! Auugh, my ears!!
I mean, it's obviously distorted. I can hear the clipping. People are putting out
released tracks that I can't listen to without getting a splitting headache.
Is there any such thing that I might be able to pipe into an ALSA or JACK setup, which
would repair these broken tracks?
It's sad. It's like people are mastering for laptop speakers, cellphone speakers,
or earbuds, and nothing else.
FWIW, as an example, I've just stumbled across the music of Amanda Palmer, downloaded
her latest album, I think the music is great, or could be, but I can't listen to it
because of the mastering.
-ken
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3:53 a.m.
On Mon, Aug 12, 2013 at 01:37:06AM +0000, gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com wrote:
I'm a backer of the Theater Is Evil release. The
compression doesn't bother me, but many times I wish they'd brought her voice up
in the mix.
Good point, since it's Kickstarter and "pay-what-you-like", I'd be happy
to pay for a version of the record undamaged by clipping and extreme compression.
So maybe that kind of effort could be crowd-funded. After all, mastering does cost money--
$500/track for pro mastering IIRC, plus any remixing that might be necessary to fix
problems masked by the extreme compression. And there are like 20 tracks on this thing, so
I guess if there are enough people to raise $10k+ then maybe it's make sense for her
to remaster it with less compression and release an undamaged version of it.
Plus, if such an effort succeeds, it might even send a notice to other artists that there
is a market for people who enjoy music that doesn't consist solely of square waves.
-ken
--
---------
But, yeah, contact her and let her know. After
released the Kickstarter deluxe version, she did go back and redo one of the tracks
(don't remember which one right now), it came out much better than the original.
No Linux involved in her work - she's a Mac-based musician, based on the photos
I've seen.
--
david
gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
---- Ken Restivo <ken(a)restivo.org> wrote:
> It's been a while since I did anything with linux audio, or even had much to do
with music, but now I'm attempting to listen to music that has been recently released,
and find it unlistenable.
>
> The mastering! The compression! It burns!! It burns!!! Auugh, my ears!!
>
> I mean, it's obviously distorted. I can hear the clipping. People are putting
out released tracks that I can't listen to without getting a splitting headache.
>
> Is there any such thing that I might be able to pipe into an ALSA or JACK setup,
which would repair these broken tracks?
>
> It's sad. It's like people are mastering for laptop speakers, cellphone
speakers, or earbuds, and nothing else.
>
> FWIW, as an example, I've just stumbled across the music of Amanda Palmer,
downloaded her latest album, I think the music is great, or could be, but I can't
listen to it because of the mastering.
>
> -ken
11:22 a.m.
Am 11.08.2013 10:57, schrieb Ken Restivo:
It's been a while since I did anything with linux
audio, or even had much to do with music, but now I'm attempting to listen to music
that has been recently released, and find it unlistenable.
The mastering! The compression! It burns!! It burns!!! Auugh, my ears!!
I am with you and have shared your pain with some CDs I purchased in the
last 20 years. Most bestial example in my CD-Rack is a single from the
Foo Fighters that comes with a "B"-side that is actually mastered with a
lot of respect for dynamics and sounds actually very good while the
"A"-side is a lifeless synthetic simulation of rock-music that looks
like a line of toothpaste in an editor.
I use to react to such policies by not buying/listening to music that is
made that way. It is the artists choice to sound that way and I respect
that and in respect for my own holy and immaculate personal taste I do
not buy it.
Regarding tools for "unmastering":
I tried that several times to find methods to repair badly made
recordings etc but I found, that there is not much that can be done
about dynamics and near to nothing about distortion/clipping.
Tools for audio-restoration are not that elaborated in Linux anyway. In
some cases I had a little success by applying EQ to filter parts of the
signal, that made distortions prominent for the hearing and maybe this
could ease the pain for you too but I never managed its to restore
dynamics *and* keep the signal authentic and filtering to diminish
distortion has a very strong tendency to make the result sound numb.
best regards...
I mean, it's obviously distorted. I can hear the clipping. People are putting out
released tracks that I can't listen to without getting a splitting headache.
Is there any such thing that I might be able to pipe into an ALSA or JACK setup, which
would repair these broken tracks?
It's sad. It's like people are mastering for laptop speakers, cellphone speakers,
or earbuds, and nothing else.
FWIW, as an example, I've just stumbled across the music of Amanda Palmer, downloaded
her latest album, I think the music is great, or could be, but I can't listen to it
because of the mastering.
-ken
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2:18 p.m.
Hartmut Noack <zettberlin(a)linuxuse.de> a écrit :
I use to react to such policies by not
buying/listening to music that
is made that way. It is the artists choice to sound that way and I
respect that and in respect for my own holy and immaculate personal
taste I do not buy it.
It is not really an artistic choice. Popular cultural references are
tailored by media industries, and artists are just conforming. If you
don't buy, others will to comfort artists in their "choices". Music is a
good indicator of things to come; the future sounds louder and even more
over-compressed. Kickstarter won't change that. Education might help.
--
Marc
2:56 p.m.
Am 12.08.2013 14:18, schrieb Marc Lavallée:
Hartmut Noack <zettberlin(a)linuxuse.de> a écrit
:
If they do they will not have a share of my music-buying budget. And if
it is not choice but compliance, it does not change much for me. Failing
to defend your own art against defacements on behest of the industry is
failure anyway.
I use to react to such policies by not
buying/listening to music that
is made that way. It is the artists choice to sound that way and I
respect that and in respect for my own holy and immaculate personal
taste I do not buy it.
It is not really an artistic choice. Popular cultural references are
tailored by media industries, and artists are just conforming. If you
don't buy, others will to comfort artists in their "choices".
I am afraid, you are correct in this anyway, I do believe, that I am not
entirely alone when I spend my money on music, that suits me better...
Music is a
good indicator of things to come; the future sounds louder and even more
over-compressed.
To avoid misunderstanding: I do not dislike loudness as such. If it is
done right and fits an artistic concept, I really like to hear
loudness-mastering too. The last Dead Can Dance LP is incredibly loud
and still has a lot of interesting texture and atmosphere. The
QOTSA-album with the descriptive name "Songs for the deaf" is infamously
toothpasted too but they manage it, to keep it sound organic and even
quite dynamic.
I remember recording Motörheads Ace of Space back in 1983 or so onto a
tapemachine with real VUs and how impressed I was, that the VU did not
move at all ;-)
Kickstarter won't change that. Education might
help.
I think, some more discordianism could help also. It should be
considered more swag to be different/individual. Many kids feel that
way, just have a look upon the fanbase of Anit-folk reactionaries like
Düne or the Two Gallants.
best regards
HZN
--
Marc
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5:29 p.m.
I followed this thread some. I agree that getting back to the
uncompressed audio would be virtually impossible without knowing
the non-linear transfer function that resulted in what exists
now. But, I have hardware, both in my "home stereo" and in my
recording rack that is a "decompressor"; I think most people
would call those "expanders", as is the label on the gear.
Oddly, the home stereo version is more adjustable. I can't get
back uncompressed audio with those. But, I do get audio with
more dynamic range, and it's only a question of how pleasing the
result is as to whether it's worth using.
I hope that's useful commentary & info.
Cheerio....
--
Kevin
4168
days inactive
4169
days old
linux-audio-user@lists.linuxaudio.org
23 comments
11 participants
participants (11)
-
Al Thompson -
Diego Simak -
Erik de Castro Lopo -
Fons Adriaensen -
gnome＠hawaii.rr.com -
Hartmut Noack -
Ken Restivo -
Kevin Cosgrove -
Marc Lavallée -
Ralf Mardorf -
Ralph Bluecoat