30 Nov
2011
30 Nov
'11
1:47 p.m.
Hello everyone!
I'd like to cite from a relatively recent work (1970), which of course is
still copyrighted. So can I do it per se? I'd just like to cite a main phrase
for a bit (2-4 bars) I suspect. any hints on that would be very much
appreciated.
Warm regards
Julien
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Such Is Life: Very Intensely Adorable;
Free And Jubilating Amazement Revels, Dancing On - FLOWERS!
====== Find my music at ======
http://juliencoder.de/nama/music.html
.....................................
"If you live to be 100, I hope I live to be 100 minus 1 day,
so I never have to live without you." (Winnie the Pooh)
30 Nov
30 Nov
2:24 p.m.
Julien Claassen wrote:
Hello everyone!
I'd like to cite from a relatively recent work (1970), which of
course is still copyrighted. So can I do it per se? I'd just like to
cite a main phrase for a bit (2-4 bars) I suspect. any hints on that
would be very much appreciated.
Warm regards
Julien
Hi Julien!
I'm afraid that my mail includes not a definite answer, but the english
wikipedia page on sampling includes a lot of information about the legal
conflicts that this topic brings up:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_%28music%29#Legal_issues
It includes a case where the sampling of 3 notes was considered to be a
problem, even though this decision was widely criticized. Other samples
(like a short sample of a flute) were not seen as a infringement.From my
point of view the legal situation is very unclear :)
- Sebastian
5:14 p.m.
Hello Sebastian!
Thanks for your answer, but I'm afraid, this covers slightly the wrong
matter, since I don't want to sample, but qote, play the notes myself.
thanks anyway, perhaps it might contain some helpful material after all. But
I've seen, there are many more answers to this thread.
Warmly yours
Julien
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Such Is Life: Very Intensely Adorable;
Free And Jubilating Amazement Revels, Dancing On - FLOWERS!
====== Find my music at ======
http://juliencoder.de/nama/music.html
.....................................
"If you live to be 100, I hope I live to be 100 minus 1 day,
so I never have to live without you." (Winnie the Pooh)
2:31 p.m.
onsdagen den 30 november 2011 13.47.21 skrev Julien Claassen:
Hello everyone!
I'd like to cite from a relatively recent work (1970), which of course is
still copyrighted. So can I do it per se? I'd just like to cite a main
phrase for a bit (2-4 bars) I suspect. any hints on that would be very much
appreciated.
Hard to answer, and it depends of the context. If just one beat from that
phrase is significant for the melody, then you might run into trouble. On the
other hand, you can (if I understands everything right) often cite several
seconds of a song without paying royalties when for example showing or
reviewing song.
Here is links to some (hopefully blind friendly) documents that might help
you:
http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/music-royalties.htm/printable
http://www.alankorn.com/articles/sampling.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use
Hope that helps
Jostein
2:33 p.m.
I think the rule of thumb is that if it's recognisable you can't use it without
breaching copyright.
I know people used to say less than 7 notes or 2 bars is OK but that has proved a fallacy
from court cases. I'm sure when I was at uni one case stated was of 4 notes, from a
well known News theme/opening credits.
Also; pretty much every phrase/sequence of notes has been written and used many times.
Find the same phrase from a classical piece, even if written for a completely different
instrument, and claim you were inspired and translated it from that.
Isn't it Andrew Lloyd Webber people claim takes most of his music from old classic,
compositing different pieces together with different instruments to original and then only
the words are original?
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 13:47:21 +0100
From: julien(a)mail.upb.de
To: linux-audio-user(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
Subject: [LAU] [slightly OT] Musical citation (what is allowed?)
Hello everyone!
I'd like to cite from a relatively recent work (1970), which of course is
still copyrighted. So can I do it per se? I'd just like to cite a main phrase
for a bit (2-4 bars) I suspect. any hints on that would be very much
appreciated.
Warm regards
Julien
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Such Is Life: Very Intensely Adorable;
Free And Jubilating Amazement Revels, Dancing On - FLOWERS!
====== Find my music at ======
http://juliencoder.de/nama/music.html
.....................................
"If you live to be 100, I hope I live to be 100 minus 1 day,
so I never have to live without you." (Winnie the Pooh)
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-user mailing list
Linux-audio-user(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-user
2:57 p.m.
On 11/30/2011 07:47 AM, Julien Claassen wrote:
Hello everyone!
I'd like to cite from a relatively recent work (1970), which of
course is still copyrighted. So can I do it per se? I'd just like to
cite a main phrase for a bit (2-4 bars) I suspect. any hints on that
would be very much appreciated.
Hi Julien,
As others have pointed out, the legal status is unclear, probably by the
nature of the problem. Bear in mind that George Harrison was busted for
sol-mi-re in My Sweet Lord, it is the same melodic progression as The
Chiffons He's So Fine. Now, I don't know what anyone else might think
about it, but I find it hard to believe that GH was consciously ripping
off The Chiffons. From Wikipedia :
"Harrison denied deliberately plagiarising the song, but he lost the
resulting court case in 1976 as the judge deemed that Harrison had
"subconsciously" plagiarised "He's So Fine". When considering
liable
earnings, "My Sweet Lord"'s contribution to the sales of /All Things
Must Pass/ and /The Best of George Harrison
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Best_of_George_Harrison>/ were taken
into account, and the judge decided a figure of $1,599,987 was owed to
Bright
Tunes.^<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Harrison#cite_note-Plagiaris…
The dispute over damages became complicated when Harrison's former
manager Allen Klein <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_Klein> purchased
the copyright to "He's So Fine" from Bright Tunes in 1978. In 1981, a
district judge decided that Klein had acted improperly, and it was
agreed that Harrison should pay Klein $587,000, the amount Klein had
paid for "He's So Fine", so he would gain nothing from the deal, and
that Harrison would take over ownership of Bright Tunes, making him the
owner of the rights to both "My Sweet Lord" and "He's So Fine" and
thus
ending the copyright infringement claim. Though the dispute dragged on
into the 1990s, the district judge's decision was upheld."
Best,
dp
3:49 p.m.
On 30/11/11 13:57, Dave Phillips wrote:
On 11/30/2011 07:47 AM, Julien Claassen wrote:
From a musical point view (if it was ever considered in the court case)
I think together with same chord progression in certain points (the
repeated RE- SOL) and very similar melody, the bit where the chords go
from repeated RE- SOL to DO with basically the same melody might have
been (more or less consciously) determining (well there's nothing much
you could really do of course if not go to DO at a certain point).
Interestingly from that point on the two songs depart the most.
That said, IMHO copyright has reached a point of extreme craziness,
hopefully copy left licenses will start to slowly spread - but not till
the majors, publishers and collecting societies stand in the way.
So Julien.. be very careful. I once heard a story of Italian collecting
society SIAE 'inspectors' bursting in at a no-profit charity party who
were simply playing CDs on their stereo and fining them some hundreds euro!!
Lorenzo.
Hello everyone!
I'd like to cite from a relatively recent work (1970), which of course
is still copyrighted. So can I do it per se? I'd just like to cite a
main phrase for a bit (2-4 bars) I suspect. any hints on that would be
very much appreciated.
Hi Julien,
As others have pointed out, the legal status is unclear, probably by the
nature of the problem. Bear in mind that George Harrison was busted for
sol-mi-re in My Sweet Lord, 
4:15 p.m.
On Wed, 30 Nov 2011 15:46:26 +0000
Lorenzo Sutton <lorenzofsutton(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I once heard a story of Italian
collecting society SIAE 'inspectors' bursting in at a no-profit
charity party who were simply playing CDs on their stereo and fining
them some hundreds euro!!
if the CDs were original, what was the problem?
Anyway I agree these copyright infringment stories that were mentioned
in this thread are crazy... Isn't copying and burrowing from others a
*substantial* part of art? While it's right to give credit where it's
due, it just seems ridicoulous to fine someone because of 4 notes that
had allready been played
renato
9:24 p.m.
On 30/11/11 15:13, Renato wrote:
On Wed, 30 Nov 2011 15:46:26 +0000
Lorenzo Sutton<lorenzofsutton(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Presumably because they hadn't paid for a licence to publicly broadcast
the music.
Just because something is done by a charity or not-for-profit
organisation doesn't mean that the law doesn't apply to them. It makes
perfect sense to me -- if TV or radio have to pay royalties when
broadcasting, it seems only fair that other public broadcasters (whether
over the airwaves or via a public address system) do the same.
Q
I once heard a story of Italian
collecting society SIAE 'inspectors' bursting in at a no-profit
charity party who were simply playing CDs on their stereo and fining
them some hundreds euro!!
if the CDs were original, what was the problem? 
9:48 p.m.
Which always strikes me as something illogical. Nobody has to pay for work
which was done without their consent. When I am in a barbershop, I do not
ask for music. So listening to radio is not a public performance, it is an
imposed service. Reasoning that "having music in a barbershop increases
profits of the barbershop" is logically false, as it assumes a. people like
any music that is played b. people want to listen to music always and enjoy
it any time. Both presumptions are false. I personally wish barbershops did
not play music. As for restaurants, I wish they did not play it at all =)
--
Louigi Verona
http://www.louigiverona.ru/
9:54 p.m.
Hello Louigi!
As much as I agree with you about music everywhere, especially the
radiostations they choose. The idea still holds, becuase you might want. Oh,
but let's not get into this. :-)
I contacted the label from the band I wish to cite and I suppose that it
will all be allright tomorrow.
Warmly yours
Julien
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Such Is Life: Very Intensely Adorable;
Free And Jubilating Amazement Revels, Dancing On - FLOWERS!
====== Find my music at ======
http://juliencoder.de/nama/music.html
.....................................
"If you live to be 100, I hope I live to be 100 minus 1 day,
so I never have to live without you." (Winnie the Pooh)
9:57 p.m.
Absolutely, it holds - it is not us who are writing the laws :)
If the label says yes, do suggest to them to offer CC licenses to their
artists.
--
Louigi Verona
http://www.louigiverona.ru/
9:59 p.m.
Let's try for Jerusalem tomorrow. :-)
Warm regards
Julien
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Such Is Life: Very Intensely Adorable;
Free And Jubilating Amazement Revels, Dancing On - FLOWERS!
====== Find my music at ======
http://juliencoder.de/nama/music.html
.....................................
"If you live to be 100, I hope I live to be 100 minus 1 day,
so I never have to live without you." (Winnie the Pooh)
10:29 p.m.
On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 11:48:01PM +0300, Louigi Verona wrote:
Which always strikes me as something illogical. Nobody
has to pay for work
which was done without their consent. When I am in a barbershop, I do not
ask for music.
You don't pay for it directly, the barber does. And he wouldn't have
music in his shop unless he's convinced that it improves his turnover.
The barber shop may be a corner case, but the typical clothes outlet
targeting a young public isn't. It's only right they pay for it.
As for restaurants, I wish they did not play it at all
=)
I agree. Or at least keep it at low level. I created a near incident
a few weeks ago in a local restaurant I visit quite often. That evening
they had some local radio station on, half of the time it was quite
agressive advertising. I canceled my order, but offered to pay for
it anyway. Of course the owner asked me what was the problem. I told
him I didn't want to have dinner while being forced to listen to that
'spazzatura' (crap). He understood. Music was changed and I got my
dinner for free. He's using his Mac for music now instead of Radio DJ,
and it's quite acceptable even if not my preferred kind of :-)
Ciao,
--
FA
Vor uns liegt ein weites Tal, die Sonne scheint - ein Glitzerstrahl.
1 Dec
1 Dec
10:31 a.m.
On 30/11/11 21:29, Fons Adriaensen wrote:
On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 11:48:01PM +0300, Louigi
Verona wrote:
I remember a few years ago we went to this 'traditional country' pub in
England for a family gathering: they put us in a kind of separated area
as there were quite a few of us... No one would expect they would pump
trashy commercial radio at a volume which hardly enabled us to talk... I
politely asked them to turn the volume down, which they politely refused
to do. Solution: I got on a chair and physically disconnected the two
(enormous) speakers above our head. We had a pleasant, *quite*, meal.
When we left I was tempted to leave the things disconnected to the
benefit of the next customers, but it was a family gathering and I had
to maintain my 'good boy' reputation :)
Lorenzo.
[...]
As for restaurants, I wish they did not play it
at all =)
I agree. Or at least keep it at low level. I created a near incident
a few weeks ago 
30 Nov
30 Nov
4:03 p.m.
On 11/30/2011 02:57 PM, Dave Phillips wrote:
On 11/30/2011 07:47 AM, Julien Claassen wrote:
The Chiffons. From Wikipedia :
"Harrison denied deliberately plagiarising the song, but he lost the
resulting court case in 1976 as the judge deemed that Harrison had
"subconsciously" plagiarised "He's So Fine". When considering
liable
earnings, "My Sweet Lord"'s contribution to the sales of /All Things
Must Pass/ and /The Best of George Harrison
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Best_of_George_Harrison>/ were taken
into account, and the judge decided a figure of $1,599,987 was owed to
Bright
Tunes.^<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Harrison#cite_note-Plagiaris…
The dispute over damages became complicated when Harrison's former
manager Allen Klein <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_Klein> purchased
the copyright to "He's So Fine" from Bright Tunes in 1978. In 1981, a
district judge decided that Klein had acted improperly, and it was
agreed that Harrison should pay Klein $587,000, the amount Klein had
paid for "He's So Fine", so he would gain nothing from the deal, and
that Harrison would take over ownership of Bright Tunes, making him the
owner of the rights to both "My Sweet Lord" and "He's So Fine"
and thus
ending the copyright infringement claim. Though the dispute dragged on
into the 1990s, the district judge's decision was upheld."
Another recent example is the signature flute in Men At Work's - Down
Under and a nursery song [1][2]. It's a sad state of affairs...
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kookaburra_%28song%29
[2] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqOIdtKZTG4
Brendan
4:06 p.m.
On 30 November 2011 at 13:47, Julien Claassen <julien(a)mail.upb.de> wrote:
Hello everyone!
I'd like to cite from a relatively recent work (1970), which of course is
still copyrighted. So can I do it per se? I'd just like to cite a main phrase
for a bit (2-4 bars) I suspect. any hints on that would be very much
appreciated.
Warm regards
Julien
When a band I was in wanted to do that, the law was confusing enough
that even my regular lawyer suggest that I seek the advise of an
intellectually property lawyer that specializes in the music industry.
What we ended up doing was to contact the artist and get written
permission to use their material. The second alternative turned out
to be *much* easier than the other route.
Good luck! Also, maybe have a look at the GrokLaw website.
--
Kevin
5:27 p.m.
Hello everyone1
Thanks for all your help and the gruesome stories. :-) I uppose I might just
rry to contact the artists/their record label, that seems the easiest, since
it wouldn't be fun, if I took the melody from somewhere else. :-)
Thanks again and warm regards
Julien
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Such Is Life: Very Intensely Adorable;
Free And Jubilating Amazement Revels, Dancing On - FLOWERS!
====== Find my music at ======
http://juliencoder.de/nama/music.html
.....................................
"If you live to be 100, I hope I live to be 100 minus 1 day,
so I never have to live without you." (Winnie the Pooh)
4697
days inactive
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days old
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17 comments
12 participants
participants (12)
-
Brendan Jones -
Dale Powell -
Dave Phillips -
Fons Adriaensen -
Jostein Chr. Andersen -
Julien Claassen -
Kevin Cosgrove -
Lorenzo Sutton -
Louigi Verona -
Q -
Renato -
Sebastian Moors