13 Apr
2010
13 Apr
'10
7:21 a.m.
On 12/04/2010, fons(a)kokkinizita.net <fons(a)kokkinizita.net> wrote:
While reading some random pages I had an
hallucination
about an 'In Depth' DIY-surgery site:
"If after opening the breast, removing some ribs and
pushing aside the lungs (be careful not to make any
holes in them) you notice an organ that seems to be
pulsating all the time, leave it alone for now.
It's the heart, you can read more about it in <this
post>."
Well, there's a slight difference between the two fields in the
magnitude of the effects of merely pointing someone in the right
general direction and letting them figure out the rest with trial and
error...
13 Apr
13 Apr
8:23 a.m.
New subject: digital voodoo: master fader should be set at 0db
On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 10:20:58AM +0100, Gwenhwyfaer wrote:
On 12/04/2010, fons(a)kokkinizita.net
<fons(a)kokkinizita.net> wrote:
That is true. But if some activity is less dangerous
than surgery or flying aircraft that doesn't justify
spreading crappy information about it.
Do you think that anyone who wants to become a surgeon
would learn *anything at all* from the sort of drivel
that I wrote ? Would you ever trust anyone who replies
'Great post!' or 'Fantastic advice!' to such a post ?
Yet there is nothing really wrong in that text - you
shouldn't make holes in the lungs and, unless you're
very advanced and specialised in your skills, not try
to do heart surgery.
The same can't even be said of the post that Atte
referred to: it contains information that is plain
wrong, presented as a 'very important' issue.
Of course if your master fader ends up below -20 dB
there is a problem. But it will not ruin your mix.
In fact it probably won't affect it at all. This is
a very typical beginner's problem: either you rather
misjudged the initial levels of the first tracks
when building up the mix, or you've being pushing
up faders all the time. Both things you'll learn
to avoid with practice. But *NOT* from reading the
sort of nonsense as 'your master fader must be at
0 dB or it will destroy the dynamics because digital
multiplication is not exact'.
Let's face it: sites like the Renoise 'In Depth' one
do not educate or help anyone to be a sound engineer.
They have a purely social function: to give users a
a cozy place to chat so they'll be happy and pay for
the next release. The post that started all this was
probably 'invited' by marketing.
There's one positive side to this whole story and
that is Atte's critical reaction: at least he had
to courage to question the nonsense, something that
judging by their replies, can't be said of most
members of that forum.
Ciao,
--
FA
O tu, che porte, correndo si ?
E guerra e morte !
While reading some random pages I had an
hallucination
about an 'In Depth' DIY-surgery site:
"If after opening the breast, removing some ribs and
pushing aside the lungs (be careful not to make any
holes in them) you notice an organ that seems to be
pulsating all the time, leave it alone for now.
It's the heart, you can read more about it in <this
post>."
Well, there's a slight difference between the two fields in the
magnitude of the effects of merely pointing someone in the right
general direction and letting them figure out the rest with trial and
error... 
8:49 a.m.
New subject: digital voodoo: master fader should be set at 0db
fons(a)kokkinizita.net wrote:
There's one positive side to this whole story and
that is Atte's critical reaction: at least he had
to courage to question the nonsense, something that
judging by their replies, can't be said of most
members of that forum.
:-)
Thanks for all the second opinions, guys! The author of the "in depth"
article has some valid points in general, and I heard some of his
mastering work, which sounds really great.
But for now I'll stop feeling guilty when I see my master fader away
from 0db :-)
--
Atte
http://atte.dk http://modlys.dk
3:08 p.m.
New subject: digital voodoo: master fader should be set at 0db
On Tue, 13 Apr 2010 12:49:15 +0200
Atte André Jensen <atte.jensen(a)gmail.com> wrote:
fons(a)kokkinizita.net wrote:
The problem with voodoo techniques, is that somewhere in all the
mumbo-jumbo there often is just one herb or treatment that has an
actual positive result. However the practitioners are too scared to
try to eliminate all the crap so just keep repeating the entire
sequence, comfortable in the knowledge that 'it just works'(tm).
I think this entire scenario translates to the audio world with perfect
one-to-one correspondence :o
--
Will J Godfrey
http://www.musically.me.uk
Say you have a poem and I have a tune.
Exchange them and we can both have a poem, a tune, and a song.
There's one positive side to this whole story
and
that is Atte's critical reaction: at least he had
to courage to question the nonsense, something that
judging by their replies, can't be said of most
members of that forum.
:-)
Thanks for all the second opinions, guys! The author of the "in depth"
article has some valid points in general, and I heard some of his
mastering work, which sounds really great.
But for now I'll stop feeling guilty when I see my master fader away
from 0db :-)
12:07 p.m.
New subject: digital voodoo: master fader should be set at 0db
On 13/04/2010, fons(a)kokkinizita.net <fons(a)kokkinizita.net> wrote:
That is true. But if some activity is less dangerous
than surgery or flying aircraft that doesn't justify
spreading crappy information about it.
Only in the sense that disinformation is never justified. Still, it's
arguably more tolerable in a field that isn't concerned with cutting
into people (etc), however much it sets experts' teeth on edge.
Especially when, as you suggest yourself, it's in a pub setting rather
than a lecture hall.
And since that was pretty much the only thing I was trying to say, and
it perhaps didn't come over with the intended levity, I'll shut up
now.
5:43 p.m.
New subject: digital voodoo: master fader should be set at 0db
On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 03:07:07PM +0100, Gwenhwyfaer wrote:
On 13/04/2010, fons(a)kokkinizita.net
<fons(a)kokkinizita.net> wrote:
I've been re-trained over the last few years by a German mechanical-engineer friend to
think in a very reductionist, non-magickal, deterministic, cold-hard-reality kind of way.
I've been working with computers and technology for four decades, and I know I've
always been a musician first and a geek second or third. Still, I was surprised to find
how much voodoo and magickal thinking had remained in my thinking about technical
subjects.
After having been properly smacked upside the head enough times, nowadays I get very
impatient and annoyed with any kind of "secret sauce" nonsense, black boxes, and
other types of voodoo that Richard Feynman called "Cargo Cult Science".
It's all ones and zeroes. Given the same inputs, the same output should be obtained.
Acoustics is physics. And if I can't measure it, it doesn't exist.
-ken
That is true. But if some activity is less
dangerous
than surgery or flying aircraft that doesn't justify
spreading crappy information about it.
Only in the sense that disinformation is never justified. Still, it's
arguably more tolerable in a field that isn't concerned with cutting
into people (etc), however much it sets experts' teeth on edge.
Especially when, as you suggest yourself, it's in a pub setting rather
than a lecture hall.
And since that was pretty much the only thing I was trying to say, and
it perhaps didn't come over with the intended levity, I'll shut up
now. 
6:08 p.m.
New subject: digital voodoo: master fader should be set at 0db
On Tue, 13 Apr 2010, Ken Restivo wrote:
After having been properly smacked upside the head
enough
times, nowadays I get very impatient and annoyed with any
kind of "secret sauce" nonsense, black boxes, and other
types of voodoo that Richard Feynman called "Cargo Cult
Science".
I've come to call it "guitar-player-speak." :-)
-gabriel
7:20 p.m.
New subject: digital voodoo: master fader should be set at 0db
On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 03:07:44PM -0500, Gabriel M. Beddingfield wrote:
On Tue, 13 Apr 2010, Ken Restivo wrote:
I always found it amusing when Steve Albini (a guitar player, by the way, as well as an
engineer) who spent many pages blasting "producers" who used terms like
"warm" and "punchy", instead of describing things in mathematical
terms.
-ken
After having been properly smacked upside the
head enough times,
nowadays I get very impatient and annoyed with any kind of "secret
sauce" nonsense, black boxes, and other types of voodoo that Richard
Feynman called "Cargo Cult Science".
I've come to call it "guitar-player-speak." :-)
14 Apr
14 Apr
4:02 a.m.
New subject: digital voodoo: master fader should be set at 0db
Ken Restivo wrote:
On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 03:07:44PM -0500, Gabriel M.
Beddingfield
wrote:
"Warm" and "punchy" tells you something the mathematics can't tell
you.
They give you the emotional response to the music. Which is something I
think is much more important than the mathematics!
--
David
gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
On Tue, 13 Apr 2010, Ken Restivo wrote:
I always found it amusing when Steve Albini (a guitar player, by the
way, as well as an engineer) who spent many pages blasting
"producers" who used terms like "warm" and "punchy",
instead of
describing things in mathematical terms. After having been properly smacked upside the
head enough times,
nowadays I get very impatient and annoyed with any kind of
"secret sauce" nonsense, black boxes, and other types of voodoo
that Richard Feynman called "Cargo Cult Science".
I've come to call
it "guitar-player-speak." :-) 
5:48 a.m.
New subject: digital voodoo: master fader should be set at 0db
david wrote:
Ken Restivo wrote:
It goes both ways of course. Sometimes I wish for more maths where I
work as monitor engineer for live shows. I often get "Give me more mids"
but no idea if they mean 200Hz or 1200!
Roger
On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 03:07:44PM -0500, Gabriel
M. Beddingfield
wrote:
"Warm" and "punchy" tells you something the mathematics can't
tell you.
They give you the emotional response to the music. Which is something I
think is much more important than the mathematics!
On Tue, 13 Apr 2010, Ken Restivo wrote:
I always found it amusing when Steve Albini (a guitar player, by the
way, as well as an engineer) who spent many pages blasting
"producers" who used terms like "warm" and "punchy",
instead of
describing things in mathematical terms.
After having been properly smacked upside the
head enough times,
nowadays I get very impatient and annoyed with any kind of
"secret sauce" nonsense, black boxes, and other types of voodoo
that Richard Feynman called "Cargo Cult Science".
I've come to call it "guitar-player-speak." :-)
13 Apr
13 Apr
6:44 p.m.
New subject: digital voodoo: master fader should be set at 0db
On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 12:41:18PM -0700, Ken Restivo wrote:
I've been re-trained over the last few years by a
German
mechanical-engineer friend to think in a very reductionist,
non-magickal, deterministic, cold-hard-reality kind of way.
Mechanical engineers, in particular those doing precision
mechanics, can be very Zen. I remember one of them, Alex.
Twenty years or so ago I was with a company making plotters,
me doing the DSP for motor control and Alex doing the mechanics.
A tolerance of 0.01 mm he'd call 'coarse'. He would take up a
screwdriver, adjust a screw by 5 degrees, then wipe it with a
white silk cloth and put it back into its place in his toolbox
which was off-limits to everyone except himself. Still makes me
feel guilty when looking at the pile of pliers and screwdrivers
in my box.
It's all ones and zeroes. Given the same inputs,
the same
output should be obtained. Acoustics is physics. And if I
can't measure it, it doesn't exist.
Science is not only physics. Today psychology is science as
well, a fact largely ignored not only by the unwashed masses
but even by many intellectuals who still consider Freud to be
the last word on these matters.
Ciao,
--
FA
O tu, che porte, correndo si ?
E guerra e morte !
6:58 p.m.
New subject: digital voodoo: master fader should be set at 0db
On Tuesday 13 April 2010 21:41:18 Ken Restivo wrote:
It's all ones and zeroes. Given the same inputs,
the same output should be
obtained. Acoustics is physics. And if I can't measure it, it doesn't
exist.
Hehe, but don't fool yourself. Acoustics is waves in 3D around objects of
arbitrary complexity. That gets very complicated very fast...
Have fun,
Arnold
7:31 p.m.
New subject: digital voodoo: master fader should be set at 0db
On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 10:57:40PM +0200, Arnold Krille wrote:
On Tuesday 13 April 2010 21:41:18 Ken Restivo wrote:
Yes, it's in the realm of chaos theory, and probably more akin to meteorology than say
automobile mechanics.
That all said, I'm not a fundamentalist materialist either (my friend pretty much is),
but I find being able to think like one useful in many areas-- like evaulating whether
something is real or B.S.
-ken
It's all ones and zeroes. Given the same
inputs, the same output should be
obtained. Acoustics is physics. And if I can't measure it, it doesn't
exist.
Hehe, but don't fool yourself. Acoustics is waves in 3D around objects of
arbitrary complexity. That gets very complicated very fast...
14 Apr
14 Apr
2:23 a.m.
New subject: digital voodoo: master fader should be set at 0db
On Tue, 13 Apr 2010, Ken Restivo wrote:
After having been properly smacked upside the head
enough times,
nowadays I get very impatient and annoyed with any kind of "secret
sauce" nonsense, black boxes, and other types of voodoo that Richard
Feynman called "Cargo Cult Science".
It's all ones and zeroes.
...and zeroes take up just as much space on the disk as the ones do.
Last weekend, I was running FOH for a couple of concerts, and the artist
had hired a professional recording engineer to lay down a multitrack of
the show for possible commercial release. THey had a few 'special
surprise guests' showing up, so I kept bringging out 'just one more'
microphone until the channel count was up to 22, I think. After sound
check, the recording engineer expressed some trepidation that his
external hard drive could handle all that bandwidth. I asked him if he
had pushed record and tried it during soundcheck, and he said "Of course,
but you know when they get excited and start playing loud during the show,
it fills up those bits pretty quick, and maybe then the firewire800 won't
be fast enough."
--
Rick Green
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
-Benjamin Franklin
"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our
safety and our ideals."
-President Barack Obama 20 Jan 2009
10:57 a.m.
New subject: digital voodoo: master fader should be set at 0db
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 12:23 AM, Rick Green <rtg(a)aapsc.com> wrote:
Last weekend, I was running FOH for a couple of
concerts, and the artist
had hired a professional recording engineer to lay down a multitrack of
the show for possible commercial release. THey had a few 'special
surprise guests' showing up, so I kept bringging out 'just one more'
microphone until the channel count was up to 22, I think. After sound
check, the recording engineer expressed some trepidation that his
external hard drive could handle all that bandwidth. I asked him if he
had pushed record and tried it during soundcheck, and he said "Of course,
but you know when they get excited and start playing loud during the show,
it fills up those bits pretty quick, and maybe then the firewire800 won't
be fast enough."
good story.
what's ironic though is that its now reasonably well documented that
if the disk drive is in the line of fire when they start to play loud,
it really will be unable to keep up. this has nothing to do with bit
rates, but is (probably) caused by the the vibrations causing read
failures which necessitate a lot of retrys, thus slowing down the
effective streaming bandwidth of the disk. if the disk is kept out the
way of direct incoming sound, the issue goes away.
yes, really!
--p
1:12 p.m.
New subject: digital voodoo: master fader should be set at 0db
what's ironic though is that its now reasonably
well documented that
if the disk drive is in the line of fire when they start to play loud,
it really will be unable to keep up. this has nothing to do with bit
rates, but is (probably) caused by the the vibrations causing read
failures which necessitate a lot of retrys, thus slowing down the
effective streaming bandwidth of the disk. if the disk is kept out the
way of direct incoming sound, the issue goes away.
yes, really!
Really? I've often wondered about that, but despite doing hard disk
recording for the past ten years now (And I've run some very loud
shows where the whole FOH was shaking) I've never had a hard disk flag
trouble with vibration. I've always used notebook dgrade drives
though... maybe that's the difference. They all have accelerometers
and actively monitor vibration to cancel it out (and detect if the
notebook is dropped. 0G == park the heads now!) OTOH, most
enterprise grade HDs do this too, as they're designed to be mounted by
the hundred in a single rack, and that can shake a rack good just from
all the mechanical actuators being shot from one position to another
at highest possbile speed. If you've ever held a naked drive in your
hand while it's running, those things can kick..
I know my raid box on my personal workstation (8 high speed enterprise
drives) shudders hard when all the disks are slamming the heads around
full-tilt. I feel it in my keyboard six feet away when the raid is
doing a journal flush. Pro drives don't do 'quiet mode' (one reason
I'm glad to see SSD becoming affordable! :-)
Monty
7:58 p.m.
New subject: digital voodoo: master fader should be set at 0db
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 11:12 AM, Monty Montgomery <xiphmont(a)gmail.com> wrote:
the best documented case i'm personally familiar with was an FOH
engineer using ardour. if he kept the (external) drive on the same
table as the mixing console, ardour would fail to "keep up" with disk
i/o. if he put a drum shield box in front of the table, no problems.
if he put the disk into the cabinet below the console, no problems. if
the band played quietly, no problems.
and then there is the sun testing work that arnold referred to.
what's
ironic though is that its now reasonably well documented that
if the disk drive is in the line of fire when they start to play loud,
it really will be unable to keep up. this has nothing to do with bit
rates, but is (probably) caused by the the vibrations causing read
failures which necessitate a lot of retrys, thus slowing down the
effective streaming bandwidth of the disk. if the disk is kept out the
way of direct incoming sound, the issue goes away.
yes, really!
Really? I've often wondered about that, but despite doing hard disk
recording for the past ten years now (And I've run some very loud
shows where the whole FOH was shaking) I've never had a hard disk flag
trouble with vibration.
8:51 p.m.
New subject: digital voodoo: master fader should be set at 0db
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 05:58:10PM -0400, Paul Davis wrote:
the best documented case i'm personally familiar
with was an FOH
engineer using ardour. if he kept the (external) drive on the same
table as the mixing console, ardour would fail to "keep up" with disk
i/o. if he put a drum shield box in front of the table, no problems.
if he put the disk into the cabinet below the console, no problems. if
the band played quietly, no problems.
Given today's disk technology this is not really
a big surprise. One way to increase the speed of
a head positioning servo is to make it open loop
for at least part of its bandwidth, relying on
controlled forces and inertia to control fast
movement rather than on position feedback. Any
such system would be quite sensitive to vibration
in the frequency range not covered by feedback.
Ciao,
--
FA
O tu, che porte, correndo si ?
E guerra e morte !
1:24 p.m.
New subject: digital voodoo: master fader should be set at 0db
On Wed, 14 Apr 2010, Paul Davis wrote:
if the disk drive is in the line of fire when they
start to play loud,
it really will be unable to keep up. this has nothing to do with bit
rates, but is (probably) caused by the the vibrations causing read
failures which necessitate a lot of retrys, thus slowing down the
effective streaming bandwidth of the disk. if the disk is kept out the
way of direct incoming sound, the issue goes away.
yes, really!
That makes more sense. In this case, the engineer was set up back in the
dressing room, much quieter than the music room.
Thanks for the tip. I'll add a spare mouse pad to my traveling rig, so
that when I'm recording from FOH, I can provide some isolation to the
drive from the vibrations of the table. I haven't experienced crashes
myself(yet!) during recording of up to 26 tracks via
firewire400(interface) and eSATA(drive).
I do experience JACK crashes with a complaint that "your aplication
couldn't keep up" from time to time, but they're associated
with closing one session and opening another, or exporting the session to
WAV (which is strange, because Ardour doesn't output thru JACK while it's
generating the export. But fortunately, it's always as it ends.) I'm
running an ancient 2-year-old version of Ardour, so I'm looking forward to
a clean install of UbuntuStudio 10.04 in a few weeks to see what wonders
you've come up with in the past two years!
--
Rick Green
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
-Benjamin Franklin
"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our
safety and our ideals."
-President Barack Obama 20 Jan 2009
3:33 p.m.
New subject: digital voodoo: master fader should be set at 0db
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 11:23:58AM -0400, Rick Green wrote:
On Wed, 14 Apr 2010, Paul Davis wrote:
I suspect you'll want more thick padding than just a mouse pad. Perhaps a 1" or
2" thick acoustic foam, like the kind they used to put in boxes that held line
printers to keep the sound from driving people batty.
-ken
if the disk drive is in the line of fire when
they start to play loud,
it really will be unable to keep up. this has nothing to do with bit
rates, but is (probably) caused by the the vibrations causing read
failures which necessitate a lot of retrys, thus slowing down the
effective streaming bandwidth of the disk. if the disk is kept out the
way of direct incoming sound, the issue goes away.
yes, really!
That makes more sense. In this case, the engineer was set up back in
the dressing room, much quieter than the music room.
Thanks for the tip. I'll add a spare mouse pad to my traveling rig, so
that when I'm recording from FOH, I can provide some isolation to the
drive from the vibrations of the table. I haven't experienced crashes
myself(yet!) during recording of up to 26 tracks via
firewire400(interface) and eSATA(drive).
3:52 p.m.
New subject: digital voodoo: master fader should be set at 0db
On Wednesday 14 April 2010 14:56:53 Paul Davis wrote:
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 12:23 AM, Rick Green
<rtg(a)aapsc.com> wrote:
For all who won't believe Paul: That is a fact kind of proven by (I think) Sun
engineers who wondered about disk performance in their testing environment
being better than in the real server room. Then they shouted at the disks and
it got worse even more. They did a video on that where the show the error-
rates going up just when they shout at the disk.
Vibrations in the audible frequency make your disk loose track while
reading/writing.
So you don't really want to get a mouse-pad to protect against vibrations but
want to enclose the whole disk-array in a sound-prove case. Of course it
doesn't hurt to decouple that mechanically against deep-frequency vibrations.
And the next time you shout at your computer because of disk-errors: That is
what makes it worse:-)
Arnold
Last weekend, I was running FOH for a couple of
concerts, and the
artist had hired a professional recording engineer to lay down a
multitrack of the show for possible commercial release. THey had a few
'special surprise guests' showing up, so I kept bringging out 'just one
more' microphone until the channel count was up to 22, I think. After
sound check, the recording engineer expressed some trepidation that his
external hard drive could handle all that bandwidth. I asked him if he
had pushed record and tried it during soundcheck, and he said "Of course,
but you know when they get excited and start playing loud during the
show, it fills up those bits pretty quick, and maybe then the firewire800
won't be fast enough."
good story.
what's ironic though is that its now reasonably well documented that
if the disk drive is in the line of fire when they start to play loud,
it really will be unable to keep up. this has nothing to do with bit
rates, but is (probably) caused by the the vibrations causing read
failures which necessitate a lot of retrys, thus slowing down the
effective streaming bandwidth of the disk. if the disk is kept out the
way of direct incoming sound, the issue goes away.
yes, really! 
18 Apr
18 Apr
1:22 p.m.
New subject: digital voodoo: master fader should be set at 0db
On 04/14/2010 02:56 PM, Paul Davis wrote:
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 12:23 AM, Rick Green
<rtg(a)aapsc.com> wrote:
MA lighting (the guys who sell the grand ma range of light controllers,
market leaders in germany) have a warning note on their boxen (which are
embedded pcs in effect) not to attempt disk backups in high-noise
conditions, because the vibrations can cause failure or even data
corruption. very funny. even more funny: they're right. i've heard quite
a few lighting engineers got bitten by this issue.
Last weekend, I was running FOH for a couple of
concerts, and the artist
had hired a professional recording engineer to lay down a multitrack of
the show for possible commercial release. THey had a few 'special
surprise guests' showing up, so I kept bringging out 'just one more'
microphone until the channel count was up to 22, I think. After sound
check, the recording engineer expressed some trepidation that his
external hard drive could handle all that bandwidth. I asked him if he
had pushed record and tried it during soundcheck, and he said "Of course,
but you know when they get excited and start playing loud during the show,
it fills up those bits pretty quick, and maybe then the firewire800 won't
be fast enough."
good story.
what's ironic though is that its now reasonably well documented that
if the disk drive is in the line of fire when they start to play loud,
it really will be unable to keep up. this has nothing to do with bit
rates, but is (probably) caused by the the vibrations causing read
failures which necessitate a lot of retrys, thus slowing down the
effective streaming bandwidth of the disk. if the disk is kept out the
way of direct incoming sound, the issue goes away. 
17 Apr
17 Apr
12:58 a.m.
New subject: digital voodoo: master fader should be set at 0db
On Tuesday 13 April 2010 15:41:18 Ken Restivo wrote:
It's all ones and zeroes. Given the same inputs,
the same output should be
obtained. Acoustics is physics. And if I can't measure it, it doesn't
exist.
There's a lot in acoustics that's not yet quite completely understood :)
Especially when it comes to psycho-acoustics, which is what interests us in
the end, when it comes to music production...
amongst other things...
sincerely,
Marije
5335
days inactive
5340
days old
linux-audio-user@lists.linuxaudio.org
22 comments
14 participants
participants (14)
-
Arnold Krille -
Atte André Jensen -
david -
Folderol -
fons＠kokkinizita.net -
Gabriel M. Beddingfield -
Gwenhwyfaer -
Jörn Nettingsmeier -
Ken Restivo -
Monty Montgomery -
nescivi -
Paul Davis -
Rick Green -
Roger