[linux-audio-user] Fwd: [Jamin] Re: soft clip: Achieving Gain, inconsequential overloads
11 Apr
2004
11 Apr
'04
6:23 p.m.
Hi,
Maybe some folks on this list have insites into the
following conversation between Steve and myself. I
need all the help I can get. The last three paragraphs
are a topic for which I am woefully ignorant.
--- Steve Harris <S.W.Harris(a)ecs.soton.ac.uk>
wrote:
dont
> think any of them are
> better than JAMin's "boost".
On Sun, Apr 11, 2004 at 10:04:43 -0700, R Parker
wrote:
> Not sure but I probably mentioned something
about
this
> several months ago. Steve, do you have a soft
clip
LADSPA
plug? If yes, I think it should be a
candidate
for adding to the output stage of JAMin.
There are some soft clip LADSPA plugins, but I The thing is my client has requested a %20 increase
in
volume across the entire album. The first question
is
does he know what he's asking for. Well, he probably
has a fair enough idea. He has compared the old
master
with stylistically similar million dollar masters
and
concluded the percentage to increase.
If anyone here has tricks for achieving gain, I need
to hear about them. My bag ain't got alot in it. I
basically cut dominant frequency either with
compression or equalization and with the leveled off
floor, achieve gain possible; input, compressor
makeup, limiter input, boost and output. Of course
then it's just a matter of tweaking ratios,
thresholds, etc.
The trade off in general is less dynamics and more
distortion with several deciables of increased
volume.
I love the work but this job is like a No Rules Cage
Match. I might eventually win the title but it's a
good thing I brought lunch and a first aid kit.
-------------------------------------------------------
I've heard that you can ignore peaks that
only go
over 0dB for less than a
millisecond, but I've not experimented with it.
If that's the case, then I might have this job in
the
bag. I'm watching overloads at the input channels of
my mixer flicker on and off. I've been trying very
hard to have absolutely zero overload indications.
Any idea how to test this potential point of
flexibility or how to push this limit? What am I
watching for and how do I watch for it? This seems
like a very interesting area of study. I've gotta do
a
dirt knap and then maybe google about or something.
ron
- Steve
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11 Apr
11 Apr
7:37 p.m.
On Sun, 2004-04-11 at 13:16, R Parker wrote:
I think this is very specific to to where in the chain it happens as
well as the exact system you're using.
Hi,
Maybe some folks on this list have insites into the
following conversation between Steve and myself. I
need all the help I can get. The last three paragraphs
are a topic for which I am woefully ignorant.
Ron,
I'm not totally sure I'm in tune with the exact problem yet, but on
my end today I'm doing some first mixes of a Big Band group I recorded
Thursday and last evening. 8 horns, drums, bass, guitar and piano.
Probably not the same sort of music you're working on. (Strange music
for me too....jeez...I'm dancing close with a sexy brunette in 1940's
New York...) ;-)
For the tracking we used only 2 R0de mics on the whole group. The raw
audio sounds pretty good, but since the 002 Rack has no compressor
between the mic pre and the A/D my recorded levels are low. I knew this
going in, so I kept the preamp gain low to minimize peak clipping in the
A/D, but I come up with less volume. (Obviously.)
My first step, which doesn't effect sound if it's done right, was to
simply normalize the tracks up a bit. (I told the normalizer to make the
highest peak -1db) At that point things were better with volume, but a
bit dry, so I added some IR1 reverb, which was my plan before recording
since they couldn't get a room with a lot of ambiance. Now it sounds
better, but it's still low volume.
At this point I'm working with a Waves C4 on the Master fader. I've
got about 3db gain on each band. I've got my breakpoints set at 100Hz,
500Hz and about 3K. You would adjust based on the music you're doing.
I've got the low-band compressor threshold set sort of low, like -25db,
and the high band set a bit low at -18. The two mid-band thresholds are
set around -12. All the ranges are set identically at -12. At this point
I get pretty close to 3db gain except during peaks in each band 3 when
the compressor kicks in. I can then raise overall gain to get a bit more
volume and tune the compressor thresholds of I'm having trouble in any
specific band.
I'm no expert on compressors, but I think a 4-band compressor is a
really place to start for what you want to do, so Jamin should be
helpful. My biggest recommendation would be to compress as little as
possible. If I do too much it all sounds unnatural. In my case it's
really only the band below 100Hz that's consistently ranging down. The
other 3 are moving much less.
--- Steve Harris
<S.W.Harris(a)ecs.soton.ac.uk> wrote:
dont
> think any of them are
> better than JAMin's "boost".
> The thing is my client has requested a %20 increase
> in
> volume across the entire album. The first question
> is
> does he know what he's asking for. Well, he probably
> has a fair enough idea. He has compared the old
> master
> with stylistically similar million dollar masters
> and
> concluded the percentage to increase.
>
> If anyone here has tricks for achieving gain, I need
> to hear about them. My bag ain't got alot in it. I
> basically cut dominant frequency either with
> compression or equalization and with the leveled off
> floor, achieve gain possible; input, compressor
> makeup, limiter input, boost and output. Of course
> then it's just a matter of tweaking ratios,
> thresholds, etc.
>
> The trade off in general is less dynamics and more
> distortion with several deciables of increased
> volume.
> I love the work but this job is like a No Rules Cage
> Match. I might eventually win the title but it's a
> good thing I brought lunch and a first aid kit.
>
> > I've heard that you can ignore peaks that only go
> > over 0dB for less than a
> > millisecond, but I've not experimented with it. On Sun, Apr 11, 2004 at 10:04:43 -0700, R Parker
wrote:
> Not sure but I probably mentioned something
about
this
> several months ago. Steve, do you have a soft
clip
LADSPA
plug? If yes, I think it should be a
candidate
for adding to the output stage of JAMin.
There are some soft clip LADSPA plugins, but I
If that's the case, then I might have this job in
the
bag. I'm watching overloads at the input channels of
my mixer flicker on and off. I've been trying very
hard to have absolutely zero overload indications.
Any idea how to test this potential point of
flexibility or how to push this limit? What am I
watching for and how do I watch for it? This seems
like a very interesting area of study. I've gotta do
a
dirt knap and then maybe google about or something.
ron
-------------------------------------------------------
- Steve
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12 Apr
12 Apr
12:09 a.m.
--- Mark Knecht <markknecht(a)comcast.net> wrote:
increase
-------------------------------------------------------
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=== message truncated ===
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On Sun, 2004-04-11 at 13:16, R Parker wrote:
> Hi,
Ron,
I'm not totally sure I'm in tune with the exact
problem yet, but on
my end today I'm doing some first mixes of a Big
Band group I recorded
Thursday and last evening. 8 horns, drums, bass,
guitar and piano.
Probably not the same sort of music you're working
on. (Strange music
for me too....jeez...I'm dancing close with a sexy
brunette in 1940's
New York...) ;-)
That sounds like a fun job. I don't work with live
horn sections very often but man they are great.
My first step, which doesn't effect sound if
it's
done right, was to
simply normalize the tracks up a bit. (I told the
normalizer to make the
highest peak -1db)
I've never normalized a track. Can normalization hold
a -0.5db peak to -0.5 while it pushes a -12db valley
up to -6db?
If normalization behaves that way, it can help
"louden" a mix which would be appropriate for my
situation. That combined with cutting dominant
frequencies would give me the loudness I need.
I'll read up on normalization tonight. Do we have a
LADSPA normalization plugin or are they non-realtime
tools? I imagine you must produce a new normalized
file. Is that correct?
Until this job, I've never really needed to get every
bit of available gain from a mix so normalization has
never meant anything to me. Someone on this list tried
to explain it to me once but I'm to old and bullheaded
to learn anything new. That is, until my rear end is
hanging in the air.
I'm no expert on compressors, but I think a
4-band compressor is a
really place to start for what you want to do, so
Jamin should be
helpful. My biggest recommendation would be to
compress as little as
possible. If I do too much it all sounds unnatural.
In my case it's
really only the band below 100Hz that's consistently
ranging down. The
other 3 are moving much less.
With the job I'm doing compression and limiting are
probably alot more extreme than what you're doing.
This is multitrack pop music. Reguardless, when I
reach for the last bit of gain, I'm limiting to damned
hard. If normalization does what I hope then it
combined with leveling the floor by cutting and
compressing dominant frequencies might enable me to
achieve greater "loudness" without the super hard
limiting. As I think about it, I'm not sure what else
normalization could be.
Good stuff, thanks for the help,
ron
> --- Steve Harris <S.W.Harris(a)ecs.soton.ac.uk>
wrote:
> > On Sun, Apr 11, 2004 at 10:04:43 -0700,
R
Parker
> > wrote:
> > > Not sure but I probably mentioned something
> about
> > this
> > > several months ago. Steve, do you have a
soft
clip
> The thing is my client has requested a %20 > LADSPA plug? If yes, I think it should be a
candidate
> for adding to the output stage of JAMin.
There are some soft clip LADSPA plugins, but I
dont
> think any of them are
> better than JAMin's "boost". > in
> volume across the entire album. The first
question
> is
> does he know what he's asking for. Well, he
probably
> has a fair enough idea. He has compared the
old
> master
> with stylistically similar million dollar
masters
> and
> concluded the percentage to increase.
>
> If anyone here has tricks for achieving gain, I
need
> to hear about them. My bag ain't got
alot in it.
I
> basically cut dominant frequency either
with
> compression or equalization and with the leveled
off
> floor, achieve gain possible; input,
compressor
> makeup, limiter input, boost and output. Of
course
> then it's just a matter of tweaking
ratios,
> thresholds, etc.
>
> The trade off in general is less dynamics and
more
> distortion with several deciables of
increased
> volume.
> I love the work but this job is like a No Rules
Cage
> Match. I might eventually win the title but
it's
a
> good thing I brought lunch and a first aid
kit.
>
> > I've heard that you can ignore peaks that only
go
> > over 0dB for less than a
> > millisecond, but I've not experimented with
it.
I think this is very specific to to where in the
chain it happens as
well as the exact system you're using.
>
> If that's the case, then I might have this job
in
> the
> bag. I'm watching overloads at the input
channels of
> my mixer flicker on and off. I've been
trying
very
> hard to have absolutely zero overload
indications.
>
> Any idea how to test this potential point of
> flexibility or how to push this limit? What am I
> watching for and how do I watch for it? This
seems
> like a very interesting area of study.
I've
gotta do
> a
> dirt knap and then maybe google about or
something.
ron
- Steve
__________________________________
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1:50 a.m.
On Sun, 2004-04-11 at 19:03, R Parker wrote:
No, normalization only scales the data points so that relative amplitude
is maintained. The WHOLE file is scaled so that -3db becomes -1db, -6db
becomes -5db, -9db becomes -7db, etc. This does raise the overall volume
by 2db, but it won't normally get you all that much volume if there are
a lot of dynamics in the file or else you'll clip those peaks.
Normalization is more like an after the fact tweak of the gain control
on the preamp before you recorded. Insted of the people being at -3db,
you can 'turn up the volume' so that same peak becomes -1db.
What you are asking for is exactly what a compressor does, but the way
you ask the question above is in reverse from the way it works. Think of
compression (for now just a single band that covers the complete audio
range) as first raising the valley's from -12db -6db, and then looking
for the peaks and shrinking them down so they don't clip. When the
energy gets too high the compressor 'turns down the volume quickly' (the
attack setting) and when the energy goes down it turns the volume back
up. (the release setting) The 'range' setting is basically the amount
you want to turn the volume down (compress) on the peaks.
In the old analog synth days (and still in the world of analog
compressors) the signal does through a voltage controlled amplified. The
voltage control comes from a circuit that looks at the amplitude of the
input, among other things.
increase
-------------------------------------------------------
administration.http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=1470&alloc_id=3638&op=cli…
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jamin-devel
=== message truncated ===
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My first step, which doesn't effect sound
if it's
done right, was to
simply normalize the tracks up a bit. (I told the
normalizer to make the
highest peak -1db)
I've never normalized a track. Can normalization hold
a -0.5db peak to -0.5 while it pushes a -12db valley
up to -6db?
If normalization behaves that way, it can help
"louden" a mix which would be appropriate for my
situation. That combined with cutting dominant
frequencies would give me the loudness I need.
I'll read up on normalization tonight. Do we have a
LADSPA normalization plugin or are they non-realtime
tools? I imagine you must produce a new normalized
file. Is that correct?
Yes, normalization creates a new file with new data values. It needs to
be non-real-time since it has to look at the whole track to understand
how to scale all the data values.
Until this job, I've never really needed to get every
bit of available gain from a mix so normalization has
never meant anything to me. Someone on this list tried
to explain it to me once but I'm to old and bullheaded
to learn anything new. That is, until my rear end is
hanging in the air.
I really don't think normalization is going to be all that important to
you in this case. It's more useful (IMO) when a specific track is
recorded low, or came from a source that maybe you didn't have control
of, but it's really nothing more than a volume control. Turn it up too
much and you still get clipping.
I'm no expert on compressors, but I think
a
4-band compressor is a
really place to start for what you want to do, so
Jamin should be
helpful. My biggest recommendation would be to
compress as little as
possible. If I do too much it all sounds unnatural.
In my case it's
really only the band below 100Hz that's consistently
ranging down. The
other 3 are moving much less.
With the job I'm doing compression and limiting are
probably alot more extreme than what you're doing.
This is multitrack pop music. Reguardless, when I
reach for the last bit of gain, I'm limiting to damned
hard. If normalization does what I hope then it
combined with leveling the floor by cutting and
compressing dominant frequencies might enable me to
achieve greater "loudness" without the super hard
limiting. As I think about it, I'm not sure what else
normalization could be.
Good stuff, thanks for the help,
ron
> --- Steve Harris <S.W.Harris(a)ecs.soton.ac.uk>
wrote:
> > On Sun, Apr 11, 2004 at 10:04:43 -0700,
R
Parker
> > wrote:
> > > Not sure but I probably mentioned something
> about
> > this
> > > several months ago. Steve, do you have a
soft
clip
> > LADSPA plug? If yes, I think it should be a
> candidate
> > for adding to the output stage of JAMin.
>
> There are some soft clip LADSPA plugins, but I
dont
> think any of them are
> better than JAMin's "boost".
> The thing is my client has requested a %20 > in
> volume across the entire album. The first
question
> is
> does he know what he's asking for. Well, he
probably
> has a fair enough idea. He has compared the
old
> master
> with stylistically similar million dollar
masters
> and
> concluded the percentage to increase.
>
> If anyone here has tricks for achieving gain, I
need
> to hear about them. My bag ain't got
alot in it.
I
> basically cut dominant frequency either
with
> compression or equalization and with the leveled
off
> floor, achieve gain possible; input,
compressor
> makeup, limiter input, boost and output. Of
course
> then it's just a matter of tweaking
ratios,
> thresholds, etc.
>
> The trade off in general is less dynamics and
more
> distortion with several deciables of
increased
> volume.
> I love the work but this job is like a No Rules
Cage
> Match. I might eventually win the title but
it's
a
> good thing I brought lunch and a first aid
kit.
>
> > I've heard that you can ignore peaks that only
go
> > over 0dB for less than a
> > millisecond, but I've not experimented with
it.
I think this is very specific to to where in the
chain it happens as
well as the exact system you're using.
>
> If that's the case, then I might have this job
in
> the
> bag. I'm watching overloads at the input
channels of
> my mixer flicker on and off. I've been
trying
very
> hard to have absolutely zero overload
indications.
>
> Any idea how to test this potential point of
> flexibility or how to push this limit? What am I
> watching for and how do I watch for it? This
seems
> like a very interesting area of study.
I've
gotta do
> a
> dirt knap and then maybe google about or
something.
ron
> - Steve
__________________________________
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Tutorials
Free Linux tutorial presented by Daniel Robbins,
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fundamentals to system
_______________________________________________
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6:53 p.m.
On Sun, 2004-04-11 at 22:43, Mark Knecht wrote:
On Sun, 2004-04-11 at 19:03, R Parker wrote:
No, normalization only scales the data points so that relative amplitude
is maintained. The WHOLE file is scaled so that -3db becomes -1db, -6db
becomes -5db, -9db becomes -7db, etc. This does raise the overall volume
by 2db, but it won't normally get you all that much volume if there are
a lot of dynamics in the file or else you'll clip those peaks.
That's "peak" normalization. There is also "RMS" normalization
which
doesn't scale everything equally.
Jan
My first step, which doesn't effect sound
if it's
done right, was to
simply normalize the tracks up a bit. (I told the
normalizer to make the
highest peak -1db)
I've never normalized a track. Can normalization hold
a -0.5db peak to -0.5 while it pushes a -12db valley
up to -6db?
6:49 p.m.
Ron,
There's a command line tool out there called normalize that you might
want to look at. It's on the Loads of Linux Links page (that's easier
to search for).
Jan
On Sun, 2004-04-11 at 21:03, R Parker wrote:
--- Mark Knecht <markknecht(a)comcast.net> wrote:
increase
-------------------------------------------------------
administration.http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=1470&alloc_id=3638&op=cli…
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jamin-devel
=== message truncated ===
__________________________________
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Yahoo! Tax Center - File online by April 15th
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On Sun, 2004-04-11 at 13:16, R Parker wrote:
> Hi,
Ron,
I'm not totally sure I'm in tune with the exact
problem yet, but on
my end today I'm doing some first mixes of a Big
Band group I recorded
Thursday and last evening. 8 horns, drums, bass,
guitar and piano.
Probably not the same sort of music you're working
on. (Strange music
for me too....jeez...I'm dancing close with a sexy
brunette in 1940's
New York...) ;-)
That sounds like a fun job. I don't work with live
horn sections very often but man they are great.
My first step, which doesn't effect sound
if it's
done right, was to
simply normalize the tracks up a bit. (I told the
normalizer to make the
highest peak -1db)
I've never normalized a track. Can normalization hold
a -0.5db peak to -0.5 while it pushes a -12db valley
up to -6db?
If normalization behaves that way, it can help
"louden" a mix which would be appropriate for my
situation. That combined with cutting dominant
frequencies would give me the loudness I need.
I'll read up on normalization tonight. Do we have a
LADSPA normalization plugin or are they non-realtime
tools? I imagine you must produce a new normalized
file. Is that correct?
Until this job, I've never really needed to get every
bit of available gain from a mix so normalization has
never meant anything to me. Someone on this list tried
to explain it to me once but I'm to old and bullheaded
to learn anything new. That is, until my rear end is
hanging in the air.
I'm no expert on compressors, but I think
a
4-band compressor is a
really place to start for what you want to do, so
Jamin should be
helpful. My biggest recommendation would be to
compress as little as
possible. If I do too much it all sounds unnatural.
In my case it's
really only the band below 100Hz that's consistently
ranging down. The
other 3 are moving much less.
With the job I'm doing compression and limiting are
probably alot more extreme than what you're doing.
This is multitrack pop music. Reguardless, when I
reach for the last bit of gain, I'm limiting to damned
hard. If normalization does what I hope then it
combined with leveling the floor by cutting and
compressing dominant frequencies might enable me to
achieve greater "loudness" without the super hard
limiting. As I think about it, I'm not sure what else
normalization could be.
Good stuff, thanks for the help,
ron
> --- Steve Harris <S.W.Harris(a)ecs.soton.ac.uk>
wrote:
> > On Sun, Apr 11, 2004 at 10:04:43 -0700,
R
Parker
> > wrote:
> > > Not sure but I probably mentioned something
> about
> > this
> > > several months ago. Steve, do you have a
soft
clip
> > LADSPA plug? If yes, I think it should be a
> candidate
> > for adding to the output stage of JAMin.
>
> There are some soft clip LADSPA plugins, but I
dont
> think any of them are
> better than JAMin's "boost".
> The thing is my client has requested a %20 > in
> volume across the entire album. The first
question
> is
> does he know what he's asking for. Well, he
probably
> has a fair enough idea. He has compared the
old
> master
> with stylistically similar million dollar
masters
> and
> concluded the percentage to increase.
>
> If anyone here has tricks for achieving gain, I
need
> to hear about them. My bag ain't got
alot in it.
I
> basically cut dominant frequency either
with
> compression or equalization and with the leveled
off
> floor, achieve gain possible; input,
compressor
> makeup, limiter input, boost and output. Of
course
> then it's just a matter of tweaking
ratios,
> thresholds, etc.
>
> The trade off in general is less dynamics and
more
> distortion with several deciables of
increased
> volume.
> I love the work but this job is like a No Rules
Cage
> Match. I might eventually win the title but
it's
a
> good thing I brought lunch and a first aid
kit.
>
> > I've heard that you can ignore peaks that only
go
> > over 0dB for less than a
> > millisecond, but I've not experimented with
it.
I think this is very specific to to where in the
chain it happens as
well as the exact system you're using.
>
> If that's the case, then I might have this job
in
> the
> bag. I'm watching overloads at the input
channels of
> my mixer flicker on and off. I've been
trying
very
> hard to have absolutely zero overload
indications.
>
> Any idea how to test this potential point of
> flexibility or how to push this limit? What am I
> watching for and how do I watch for it? This
seems
> like a very interesting area of study.
I've
gotta do
> a
> dirt knap and then maybe google about or
something.
ron
> - Steve
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - File online by April 15th
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
This SF.Net email is sponsored by: IBM Linux
Tutorials
Free Linux tutorial presented by Daniel Robbins,
President and CEO of
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7:30 p.m.
Jan Depner wrote:
There's a command line tool out there called
normalize that you might
want to look at. It's on the Loads of Linux Links page (that's easier
to search for).
http://www1.cs.columbia.edu/~cvaill/normalize/
7:51 p.m.
Hi Jan,
I did some testing with normalization yesterday and
it's not what I need. Normalization, it appears to me,
is simply a destructive gain tool. I've always used
compressors for gain stages but normalization is
definitely cheaper on CPU cycles. I might experiment
with normalizing the new masters. I tried normalizing
one of the old masters and it didn't make much
difference. I've a feeling it won't do anything with
the new masters.
I am placing a single band compressor in front of
JAMin and using high cut filtering and these
strategies are helping to minimize the amount of
limiting.
Because the job is so demanding, it's a great learning
experience. I might actually be starting to enjoy this
but don't tell anyone. :)
ron
--- Jan Depner <eviltwin69(a)cableone.net> wrote:
Ron,
There's a command line tool out there called
normalize that you might
want to look at. It's on the Loads of Linux Links
page (that's easier
to search for).
Jan
On Sun, 2004-04-11 at 21:03, R Parker wrote:
it's
hold
are
=== message truncated ===
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--- Mark Knecht <markknecht(a)comcast.net> wrote:
exact
On Sun, 2004-04-11 at 13:16, R Parker wrote:
> Hi,
> Ron,
> I'm not totally sure I'm in tune with the > problem yet, but on
> my end today I'm doing some first mixes of a Big
> Band group I recorded
> Thursday and last evening. 8 horns, drums, bass,
> guitar and piano.
> Probably not the same sort of music you're
working
> on. (Strange music
> for me too....jeez...I'm dancing close with a
sexy
brunette
in 1940's
New York...) ;-)
That sounds like a fun job. I don't work with live
horn sections very often but man they are great.
> My first step, which doesn't effect sound if > done right, was to
> simply normalize the tracks up a bit. (I told
the
normalizer to make the
highest peak -1db)
I've never normalized a track. Can normalization a -0.5db peak to -0.5 while it pushes a -12db
valley
up to -6db?
If normalization behaves that way, it can help
"louden" a mix which would be appropriate for my
situation. That combined with cutting dominant
frequencies would give me the loudness I need.
I'll read up on normalization tonight. Do we have
a
LADSPA normalization plugin or are they
non-realtime
tools? I imagine you must produce a new
normalized
file. Is that correct?
Until this job, I've never really needed to get
every
bit of available gain from a mix so normalization
has
never meant anything to me. Someone on this list
tried
to explain it to me once but I'm to old and
bullheaded
to learn anything new. That is, until my rear end
is
hanging in the air.
> I'm no expert on compressors, but I think a
> 4-band compressor is a
> really place to start for what you want to do,
so
> Jamin should be
> helpful. My biggest recommendation would be to
> compress as little as
> possible. If I do too much it all sounds
unnatural.
> In my case it's
> really only the band below 100Hz that's
consistently
ranging
down. The
other 3 are moving much less.
With the job I'm doing compression and limiting probably alot more extreme than what you're
doing.
This is multitrack pop music. Reguardless, when I
reach for the last bit of gain, I'm limiting to
damned
hard. If normalization does what I hope then it
combined with leveling the floor by cutting and
compressing dominant frequencies might enable me
to
achieve greater "loudness" without the
super hard
limiting. As I think about it, I'm not sure what
else
normalization could be.
Good stuff, thanks for the help,
ron
> >
> > > --- Steve Harris
<S.W.Harris(a)ecs.soton.ac.uk>
> wrote:
> > > > On Sun, Apr 11, 2004 at 10:04:43 -0700, R
> Parker
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > Not sure but I probably mentioned
something
> > > about
> > > > this
> > > > > several months ago. Steve, do you have a
> soft
> > > clip
> > > > > LADSPA plug? If yes, I think it should
be a
> > > > candidate
> > > > > for adding to the output stage of JAMin.
> > > >
> > > > There are some soft clip LADSPA plugins,
but I
> > > dont
> > > > think any of them are
> > > > better than JAMin's "boost".
> >
> > > The thing is my client has requested a %20
> increase
> > > in
> > > volume across the entire album. The first
> question
> > > is
> > > does he know what he's asking for. Well, he
> probably
> > > has a fair enough idea. He has compared the
old
> > > master
> > > with stylistically similar million dollar
> masters
> > > and
> > > concluded the percentage to increase.
> > >
> > > If anyone here has tricks for achieving
gain, I
> need
> > > to hear about them. My bag ain't got alot in
it.
> I
> > > basically cut dominant frequency either with
> > > compression or equalization and with the
leveled
> off
> > > floor, achieve gain possible; input,
compressor
> > > makeup, limiter input, boost and
output. Of
> course
> > > then it's just a matter of tweaking ratios,
> > > thresholds, etc.
> > >
> > > The trade off in general is less dynamics
and
> more
> > > distortion with several deciables of
increased
> > > volume.
> > > I love the work but this job is like a No
Rules
> Cage
> > > Match. I might eventually win the title but
it's
> a
> > > good thing I brought lunch and a first aid
kit.
> > >
> > > > I've heard that you can ignore peaks that
only
> go
> > > > over 0dB for less than a
> > > > millisecond, but I've not experimented
with
> it.
>
> I think this is very specific to to where in the
> chain it happens as
> well as the exact system you're using.
>
> > >
> > > If that's the case, then I might have this
job
> in
> > > the
> > > bag. I'm watching overloads at the input
> channels of
> > > my mixer flicker on and off. I've been
trying
13 Apr
13 Apr
4:54 a.m.
On Monday 12 April 2004 23.45, R Parker wrote:
Hi Jan,
I did some testing with normalization yesterday and
it's not what I need. Normalization, it appears to me,
is simply a destructive gain tool.
Normalization should, atleast in the 'peak' sense, be totally nondestructive.
/Robert
10:21 a.m.
Hi Robert,
What I mean by destructive is the outfile replaces the
infile. With Ardour undo can revert but the original
file is destroyed--shut down Ardour and the undo
history is lost. Not sure what you mean by "in the
'peak' sense."
ron
--- Robert Jonsson <robert.jonsson(a)dataductus.se>
wrote:
On Monday 12 April 2004 23.45, R Parker wrote:
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Hi Jan,
I did some testing with normalization yesterday
and
it's not what I need. Normalization, it
appears to
me,
is simply a destructive gain tool.
Normalization should, atleast in the 'peak' sense,
be totally nondestructive.
/Robert
10:52 a.m.
Hi,
On Tuesday 13 April 2004 14.14, R Parker wrote:
Hi Robert,
What I mean by destructive is the outfile replaces the
infile. With Ardour undo can revert but the original
file is destroyed--shut down Ardour and the undo
history is lost.
True, though, during editing in Ardour normalization does probably not make
sense, Ardour stores everything as float anyway making the point moot... I
think?
Not sure what you mean by "in the
'peak' sense."
Somebody else noted, I think it was Jan, that there is 'rms'-normalization
also. In my mind that sounds more destructive.
/Robert
ron
--- Robert Jonsson <robert.jonsson(a)dataductus.se>
wrote:
On Monday 12 April 2004 23.45, R Parker wrote:
__________________________________
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I did some testing with normalization yesterday
and
it's not what I need. Normalization, it
appears to
me,
is simply a destructive gain tool.
Normalization should, atleast in the 'peak' sense,
be totally nondestructive.
/Robert
11:40 a.m.
Hi,
--- Robert Jonsson <robert.jonsson(a)dataductus.se>
wrote:
Is "rms" another method for calculating peaks? What
does the acronym stand for? I see RMS in SWH SC4.
Adjusting it across the full spectrum in the
compressor seems to produce a very subtle audible
difference, if any difference.
ron
Hi,
On Tuesday 13 April 2004 14.14, R Parker wrote:
Hi Robert,
What I mean by destructive is the outfile replaces
the
infile. With Ardour undo can revert but the
original
file is destroyed--shut down Ardour and the undo
history is lost.
True, though, during editing in Ardour normalization
does probably not make
sense, Ardour stores everything as float anyway
making the point moot... I
think? From a user point of view, normalization is useful
during editing and mixing if headroom is needed. It is
just a gain change, right? I've never used
normalization because I'm careful about signal levels
when I print them. Well, I guess that's why.
BTW, I think Paul intends to implement a
non-destructive realtime normalization solution into
Ardour stable.
The best sense I can make of Normalizing is I might
want to apply it to all songs after they are mastered.
Then again I probably won't do that either because
mastering is the process of achieving appropriate
levels amongst groups of songs. It never hurts to
experiment so I might.
Not sure what
you mean by "in the
'peak' sense."
Somebody else noted, I think it was Jan, that there
is 'rms'-normalization
also. In my mind that sounds more destructive. /Robert
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ron
--- Robert Jonsson <robert.jonsson(a)dataductus.se>
wrote:
> On Monday 12 April 2004 23.45, R Parker wrote:
> > Hi Jan,
> >
> > I did some testing with normalization
yesterday
>
> and
>
> > it's not what I need. Normalization, it
appears to
>
> me,
>
> > is simply a destructive gain tool.
>
> Normalization should, atleast in the 'peak'
sense,
be
totally nondestructive.
/Robert
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12:10 p.m.
Somebody else noted, I think it was Jan, that there
is 'rms'-normalization
also. In my mind that sounds more destructive.
Is "rms" another method for calculating peaks? What
does the acronym stand for? I see RMS in SWH SC4.
Adjusting it across the full spectrum in the
compressor seems to produce a very subtle audible
difference, if any difference. 
1:27 p.m.
On Tue, Apr 13, 2004 at 06:34:20AM -0700, R Parker wrote:
The best sense I can make of Normalizing is I might
want to apply it to all songs after they are mastered.
That's what I understand to be its most appropriate use.
Then again I probably won't do that either
because
mastering is the process of achieving appropriate
levels amongst groups of songs.
Correct. The normalize program will do a good job of quickly levelling
out the differences between tracks when they are badly matched, but it
can't determine that you actually *want* a particular track a few dB
quieter than the others for artistic reasons.
Is "rms" another method for calculating
peaks? What
does the acronym stand for?
Literally root-mean-square. Its significance in this context is that it
relates to power, and hence arguably to audible loudness, better than
peak measurements do, and better than taking a simple mean of absolute
values of samples or voltage.
Normalizing by the criterion of RMS level is therefore the best option
for bringing different tracks to something like the same perceived loudness
level, at least better than peak normalization will do.
On a compressor, detecting peak or average (RMS) levels is one of those
things that you tweak for best results. Occasionally, with certain types
of material, it makes a difference; much of the time it doesn't matter
very much. Peak detection tends to apply to limiting to protect following
stages from clipping, and as with normalization RMS is more for compression
consistent with audible loudness.
--
Anahata
anahata(a)treewind.co.uk Tel: 01638 720444
http://www.treewind.co.uk Mob: 07976 263827
3:57 p.m.
On Tue, Apr 13, 2004 at 06:34:20 -0700, R Parker wrote:
Is "rms" another method for calculating
peaks? What
does the acronym stand for? I see RMS in SWH SC4.
Adjusting it across the full spectrum in the
compressor seems to produce a very subtle audible
difference, if any difference.
Effectivly it makes the compressor less sensitive to brief peaks.
- Steve
12:15 p.m.
> What I mean by destructive is the outfile
replaces the
> infile. With Ardour undo can revert but the original
> file is destroyed
Nothing to stop you copying the file and normalizing the copy, of
course...
Somebody else noted, I think it was Jan, that there is
'rms'-normalization
also. In my mind that sounds more destructive.
If we're talking about the command line normalize program, its default
action is RMS normalization. It sets the level so that the average RMS
value is -12dBFS. It also "limits" (I'm not sure exactly what this means in
the context) any samples above -6dBFS (50% full scale). Depending on how
'peaky' the file is, varying amounts of peak material will be thus
limited.
It has the option of peak normalization, which is a very simple
operation of scaling every sample up by a constant value chosen so that
the biggest peak is exactly 0dBFS. That's non-destructive in the sense
that no dynamic range compression happens - the only impairment is
the usual rounding errors inevitable with any audio processing.
However I suspect that what the original poster wanted is far more
sophisticated than either of these, and the comments about multiband
compression and the dangers of squashing out all the dynamics are much
more relevant.
Other techniques that help (where possible) are:
- compressing the individual tracks before or while mixing
- cascaded compressors with different settings, as simulated
by the "super nice" mode of the FMR Audio RNC (Really Nice
Compressor!). By applying slow and gentle compression first, then
successively faster and harder stages, you can get higher compression
with less audible pumping than a single compressor.
Personally I'm quite happy with running an album through normalize and
leaving it at that, but I'm definitely not in the pop music business :-)
--
Anahata
anahata(a)treewind.co.uk Tel: 01638 720444
http://www.treewind.co.uk Mob: 07976 263827
3 May
3 May
1:14 a.m.
I just stumbled across a great article on the "louder is better" theme.
It uses a great example, with analysis and comparisons.
http://www.prorec.com/prorec/articles.nsf/articles/8A133F52D0FD71AB86256C2E…
It may be helpful to include some of this in the Jamin docs also.
Dan
On Mon, 2004-04-12 at 06:16, R Parker wrote:
Hi,
Maybe some folks on this list have insites into the
following conversation between Steve and myself. I
need all the help I can get. The last three paragraphs
are a topic for which I am woefully ignorant.
--- Steve Harris
<S.W.Harris(a)ecs.soton.ac.uk> wrote:
dont
> think any of them are
> better than JAMin's "boost".
On Sun, Apr 11, 2004 at 10:04:43 -0700, R Parker
wrote:
> Not sure but I probably mentioned something
about
this
> several months ago. Steve, do you have a soft
clip
LADSPA
plug? If yes, I think it should be a
candidate
for adding to the output stage of JAMin.
There are some soft clip LADSPA plugins, but I The thing is my client has requested a %20
increase
in
volume across the entire album. The first question
is
does he know what he's asking for. Well, he probably
has a fair enough idea. He has compared the old
master
with stylistically similar million dollar masters
and
concluded the percentage to increase.
If anyone here has tricks for achieving gain, I need
to hear about them. My bag ain't got alot in it. I
basically cut dominant frequency either with
compression or equalization and with the leveled off
floor, achieve gain possible; input, compressor
makeup, limiter input, boost and output. Of course
then it's just a matter of tweaking ratios,
thresholds, etc.
The trade off in general is less dynamics and more
distortion with several deciables of increased
volume.
I love the work but this job is like a No Rules Cage
Match. I might eventually win the title but it's a
good thing I brought lunch and a first aid kit.
-------------------------------------------------------
I've heard that you can ignore peaks that
only go
over 0dB for less than a
millisecond, but I've not experimented with it.
If that's the case, then I might have this job in
the
bag. I'm watching overloads at the input channels of
my mixer flicker on and off. I've been trying very
hard to have absolutely zero overload indications.
Any idea how to test this potential point of
flexibility or how to push this limit? What am I
watching for and how do I watch for it? This seems
like a very interesting area of study. I've gotta do
a
dirt knap and then maybe google about or something.
ron
- Steve
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3:45 a.m.
Hi Dan,
--- Dan Harper <tech(a)danharper.org> wrote:
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I just stumbled across a great article on the
"louder is better" theme.
It uses a great example, with analysis and
comparisons.
http://www.prorec.com/prorec/articles.nsf/articles/8A133F52D0FD71AB86256C2E…
It may be helpful to include some of this in the
Jamin docs also.
Should we write those docs in ALL CAPS? :) Thanks for
the pointer. In my experience and observations, many
artists want that louder sound.
The job that prompted this thread was an interesting
experience because the artist requested %20 volume
increase across the board. It made me nervous. After
listening to my masters, he called twice and sent an
email. In each message he expressed his complete
satisfaction with the new master.
Was the old dynamic master so bad that a new "loud"
master could be that much better? I don't think so. I
have to admit the new loud master is better. The
lesson behind this experience isn't entirely obvious
to me. There are so many variables in audio production
that one experience can't be a deciding factor.
Reguardless, for me, the jury is undecided.
I haven't listened to that Rush album but wouldn't
mind examining a song or two. Perhaps I'd conclude
that loud isn't always bad but bad mastering engineers
are.
Do we know who mastered the Rush album? You know, it
doesn't matter who did it. That person could be the
greatest mastering talent on the planet but someone
might have walked in and said, "you've got ten
minutes."
Bed time. Talk to you soon,
ron
Dan
On Mon, 2004-04-12 at 06:16, R Parker wrote:
increase
-------------------------------------------------------
Hi,
Maybe some folks on this list have insites into
the
following conversation between Steve and myself.
I
need all the help I can get. The last three
paragraphs
are a topic for which I am woefully ignorant.
> --- Steve Harris <S.W.Harris(a)ecs.soton.ac.uk>
wrote:
> > On Sun, Apr 11, 2004 at 10:04:43 -0700,
R
Parker
> > wrote:
> > > Not sure but I probably mentioned something
> about
> > this
> > > several months ago. Steve, do you have a
soft
clip
> The thing is my client has requested a %20 > LADSPA plug? If yes, I think it should be a
candidate
> for adding to the output stage of JAMin.
There are some soft clip LADSPA plugins, but I
dont
> think any of them are
> better than JAMin's "boost". > in
> volume across the entire album. The first
question
> is
> does he know what he's asking for. Well, he
probably
> has a fair enough idea. He has compared the
old
> master
> with stylistically similar million dollar
masters
> and
> concluded the percentage to increase.
>
> If anyone here has tricks for achieving gain, I
need
> to hear about them. My bag ain't got
alot in it.
I
> basically cut dominant frequency either
with
> compression or equalization and with the leveled
off
> floor, achieve gain possible; input,
compressor
> makeup, limiter input, boost and output. Of
course
> then it's just a matter of tweaking
ratios,
> thresholds, etc.
>
> The trade off in general is less dynamics and
more
> distortion with several deciables of
increased
> volume.
> I love the work but this job is like a No Rules
Cage
> Match. I might eventually win the title but
it's
a
> good thing I brought lunch and a first aid
kit.
>
> > I've heard that you can ignore peaks that only
go
> > over 0dB for less than a
> > millisecond, but I've not experimented with
it.
>
> If that's the case, then I might have this job
in
> the
> bag. I'm watching overloads at the input
channels of
> my mixer flicker on and off. I've been
trying
very
> hard to have absolutely zero overload
indications.
>
> Any idea how to test this potential point of
> flexibility or how to push this limit? What am I
> watching for and how do I watch for it? This
seems
> like a very interesting area of study.
I've
gotta do
> a
> dirt knap and then maybe google about or
something.
ron
- Steve
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17 comments
8 participants
participants (8)
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Anahata -
Dan Harper -
Dave Phillips -
Jan Depner -
Mark Knecht -
R Parker -
Robert Jonsson -
Steve Harris