28 Mar
2010
28 Mar
'10
8:30 p.m.
We're almost done with a 12-track, 40-minute-long CD, recorded partially in Ardour and
mixed entirely in Ardour.
We should probably get it mastered. However, "pro" mastering houses want like
$500 for a CD. We haven't made that much money in a year. I think we spent a total of
$80 on recording it. So, not likely that we'll be justify big bucks to get it
mastered.
I suppose I could run it through Jamin myself, and just hope for the best, but I don't
know squat about mastering.
Are there any Linux-based mastering engineers around (i.e. on this list) who'd want to
take on a project like this, for a rate that we might be able to actually justify?
-ken
28 Mar
28 Mar
8:34 p.m.
On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 15:30:58 -0700
Ken Restivo <ken(a)restivo.org> wrote:
We're almost done with a 12-track, 40-minute-long
CD, recorded partially in Ardour and mixed entirely in Ardour.
We should probably get it mastered. However, "pro" mastering houses want like
$500 for a CD. We haven't made that much money in a year. I think we spent a total of
$80 on recording it. So, not likely that we'll be justify big bucks to get it
mastered.
I suppose I could run it through Jamin myself, and just hope for the best, but I
don't know squat about mastering.
Are there any Linux-based mastering engineers around (i.e. on this list) who'd want
to take on a project like this, for a rate that we might be able to actually justify?
-ken
Have a look on the kara-moon website (forums). There are some articles
about mastering there. Also, on that site is a guy called Oren Fisher,
who has moved almost entirely from Windows to Linux and is quite
knowledgeable on mastering.
http://www.kara-moon.com/forum/
--
Will J Godfrey
http://www.musically.me.uk
Say you have a poem and I have a tune.
Exchange them and we can both have a poem, a tune, and a song.
8:57 p.m.
Hi, Ron here....
Why not use Mike's great work with LinuxDSP?
Also, I mastered one of my remixes both on Indamixx AND a 10,000.00 Neve Pre
and although the Neve 'excited' the track and made for a bit of hearing
deeper sounds in the track it was hardly a 10 grand experience.
(Not advocating Indamixx here just noting my experience).
If I can provide another bit of input. I am not trying to sell you on the
Waves plugin L316 but I know for a fact that many super engineers (one's
producing for Eminem, Dre, 50Cent) and mastering facilities run this one
plugin on the master to achieve the 'mastered' result. It's more of a tips
and tricks thing or secret weapon for the guys who don't want you to know
what is really going on :) I guess the secret is out!
Lastly, I don't know if he is still in the biz but when we were cutting
records in the 90's for record labels, I was fortunate to work with Roger
Siebel or Seibel in Phoenix AZ and this guy was amazing!!! When we would
remix a track for like Sony and he would master it and the remix vinyl would
sound so much better that many DJ's would not play the original vinyl but
opt for our remix version because of the quality of the mastering, and
sometimes these were old school hip hop tracks that were pretty dirty/gritty
to begin with. Seibel Mastering was the facility and Roger was always very
fair. He is a lover of the art first.
Thank you
Ronald Stewart
Creative Director
Trinity Audio Group Inc.
9854 National Blvd. #322
Los Angeles CA 90034
310-733-9285
ronaldjstewart(a)gmail.com
www.indamixx.com
On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 3:30 PM, Ken Restivo <ken(a)restivo.org> wrote:
We're almost done with a 12-track, 40-minute-long
CD, recorded partially in
Ardour and mixed entirely in Ardour.
We should probably get it mastered. However, "pro" mastering houses want
like $500 for a CD. We haven't made that much money in a year. I think we
spent a total of $80 on recording it. So, not likely that we'll be justify
big bucks to get it mastered.
I suppose I could run it through Jamin myself, and just hope for the best,
but I don't know squat about mastering.
Are there any Linux-based mastering engineers around (i.e. on this list)
who'd want to take on a project like this, for a rate that we might be able
to actually justify?
-ken
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-user mailing list
Linux-audio-user(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-user
9:12 p.m.
On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 03:57:04PM -0700, Ronald Stewart wrote:
Hi, Ron here....
Why not use Mike's great work with LinuxDSP?
Also, I mastered one of my remixes both on Indamixx AND a 10,000.00 Neve Pre
and although the Neve 'excited' the track and made for a bit of hearing
deeper sounds in the track it was hardly a 10 grand experience.
(Not advocating Indamixx here just noting my experience).
If I can provide another bit of input. I am not trying to sell you on the
Waves plugin L316 but I know for a fact that many super engineers (one's
producing for Eminem, Dre, 50Cent) and mastering facilities run this one
plugin on the master to achieve the 'mastered' result. It's more of a tips
and tricks thing or secret weapon for the guys who don't want you to know
what is really going on :) I guess the secret is out!
Lastly, I don't know if he is still in the biz but when we were cutting
records in the 90's for record labels, I was fortunate to work with Roger
Siebel or Seibel in Phoenix AZ and this guy was amazing!!! When we would
remix a track for like Sony and he would master it and the remix vinyl would
sound so much better that many DJ's would not play the original vinyl but
opt for our remix version because of the quality of the mastering, and
sometimes these were old school hip hop tracks that were pretty dirty/gritty
to begin with. Seibel Mastering was the facility and Roger was always very
fair. He is a lover of the art first.
What, exactly, changes were present and noticeable in the sound so good? What is it that
the plugin does to the audio that makes it sound like "a hit". Just because
Eminiem an Dr. Dre use it-- reportedly-- doesn't mean it's not going to work so
well on stuff that isn't hip-hop, etc etc. At least not in my hands, knowing nothing
about mastering.
So I'm basically looking for an engineer who will "open source" master: do
the work using JAMIN or whatever, give me the files used (i.e. *.jam settings), and
actually explain to me in some understandable format (and which my ears can hear) what
improvements, if any, he or she made to the tracks, and why.
-ken
-------------------------
On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 3:30 PM, Ken Restivo <ken(a)restivo.org> wrote:
> We're almost done with a 12-track, 40-minute-long CD, recorded partially in
> Ardour and mixed entirely in Ardour.
>
> We should probably get it mastered. However, "pro" mastering houses want
> like $500 for a CD. We haven't made that much money in a year. I think we
> spent a total of $80 on recording it. So, not likely that we'll be justify
> big bucks to get it mastered.
>
> I suppose I could run it through Jamin myself, and just hope for the best,
> but I don't know squat about mastering.
>
> Are there any Linux-based mastering engineers around (i.e. on this list)
> who'd want to take on a project like this, for a rate that we might be able
> to actually justify?
>
> -ken
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-audio-user mailing list
> Linux-audio-user(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
> http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-user
>
29 Mar
29 Mar
11:58 a.m.
On Sunday 28 March 2010 19:13:03 Ken Restivo wrote:
On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 03:57:04PM -0700, Ronald
Stewart wrote:
Ken, it the license on the tracks is to be a cc Free one, it might be worth
your while posting the request to the forums at kompoz as well.
Hi, Ron here....
Why not use Mike's great work with LinuxDSP?
Also, I mastered one of my remixes both on Indamixx AND a 10,000.00 Neve
Pre and although the Neve 'excited' the track and made for a bit of
hearing deeper sounds in the track it was hardly a 10 grand experience.
(Not advocating Indamixx here just noting my experience).
If I can provide another bit of input. I am not trying to sell you on
the Waves plugin L316 but I know for a fact that many super engineers
(one's producing for Eminem, Dre, 50Cent) and mastering facilities run
this one plugin on the master to achieve the 'mastered' result. It's
more of a tips and tricks thing or secret weapon for the guys who don't
want you to know what is really going on :) I guess the secret is out!
Lastly, I don't know if he is still in the biz but when we were cutting
records in the 90's for record labels, I was fortunate to work with Roger
Siebel or Seibel in Phoenix AZ and this guy was amazing!!! When we would
remix a track for like Sony and he would master it and the remix vinyl
would sound so much better that many DJ's would not play the original
vinyl but opt for our remix version because of the quality of the
mastering, and sometimes these were old school hip hop tracks that were
pretty dirty/gritty to begin with. Seibel Mastering was the facility and
Roger was always very fair. He is a lover of the art first.
What, exactly, changes were present and noticeable in the sound so good?
What is it that the plugin does to the audio that makes it sound like "a
hit". Just because Eminiem an Dr. Dre use it-- reportedly-- doesn't mean
it's not going to work so well on stuff that isn't hip-hop, etc etc. At
least not in my hands, knowing nothing about mastering.
So I'm basically looking for an engineer who will "open source" master: do
the work using JAMIN or whatever, give me the files used (i.e. *.jam
settings), and actually explain to me in some understandable format (and
which my ears can hear) what improvements, if any, he or she made to the
tracks, and why.
-ken
-------------------------
> On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 3:30 PM, Ken Restivo <ken(a)restivo.org> wrote:
> > We're almost done with a 12-track, 40-minute-long CD, recorded
> > partially in Ardour and mixed entirely in Ardour.
> >
> > We should probably get it mastered. However, "pro" mastering houses
> > want like $500 for a CD. We haven't made that much money in a year. I
> > think we spent a total of $80 on recording it. So, not likely that
> > we'll be justify big bucks to get it mastered.
> >
> > I suppose I could run it through Jamin myself, and just hope for the
> > best, but I don't know squat about mastering.
> >
> > Are there any Linux-based mastering engineers around (i.e. on this
> > list) who'd want to take on a project like this, for a rate that we
> > might be able to actually justify? > >
> > -ken
drew
4:40 p.m.
On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 09:58:55AM -0400, drew Roberts wrote:
On Sunday 28 March 2010 19:13:03 Ken Restivo wrote:
In this case, it's unlikely that any of the tracks will be CC'ed.
So that's why I was asking about professional mastering services that use Linux or
Free Software.
We might free-as-in-beer a few tracks though.
-ken
On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 03:57:04PM -0700, Ronald
Stewart wrote:
Ken, it the license on the tracks is to be a cc Free one, it might be worth
your while posting the request to the forums at kompoz as well. Hi, Ron here....
Why not use Mike's great work with LinuxDSP?
Also, I mastered one of my remixes both on Indamixx AND a 10,000.00 Neve
Pre and although the Neve 'excited' the track and made for a bit of
hearing deeper sounds in the track it was hardly a 10 grand experience.
(Not advocating Indamixx here just noting my experience).
If I can provide another bit of input. I am not trying to sell you on
the Waves plugin L316 but I know for a fact that many super engineers
(one's producing for Eminem, Dre, 50Cent) and mastering facilities run
this one plugin on the master to achieve the 'mastered' result. It's
more of a tips and tricks thing or secret weapon for the guys who don't
want you to know what is really going on :) I guess the secret is out!
Lastly, I don't know if he is still in the biz but when we were cutting
records in the 90's for record labels, I was fortunate to work with Roger
Siebel or Seibel in Phoenix AZ and this guy was amazing!!! When we would
remix a track for like Sony and he would master it and the remix vinyl
would sound so much better that many DJ's would not play the original
vinyl but opt for our remix version because of the quality of the
mastering, and sometimes these were old school hip hop tracks that were
pretty dirty/gritty to begin with. Seibel Mastering was the facility and
Roger was always very fair. He is a lover of the art first.
What, exactly, changes were present and noticeable in the sound so good?
What is it that the plugin does to the audio that makes it sound like "a
hit". Just because Eminiem an Dr. Dre use it-- reportedly-- doesn't mean
it's not going to work so well on stuff that isn't hip-hop, etc etc. At
least not in my hands, knowing nothing about mastering.
So I'm basically looking for an engineer who will "open source" master: do
the work using JAMIN or whatever, give me the files used (i.e. *.jam
settings), and actually explain to me in some understandable format (and
which my ears can hear) what improvements, if any, he or she made to the
tracks, and why.
-ken
-------------------------
> On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 3:30 PM, Ken Restivo <ken(a)restivo.org> wrote:
> > We're almost done with a 12-track, 40-minute-long CD, recorded
> > partially in Ardour and mixed entirely in Ardour.
> >
> > We should probably get it mastered. However, "pro" mastering houses
> > want like $500 for a CD. We haven't made that much money in a year. I
> > think we spent a total of $80 on recording it. So, not likely that
> > we'll be justify big bucks to get it mastered.
> >
> > I suppose I could run it through Jamin myself, and just hope for the
> > best, but I don't know squat about mastering.
> >
> > Are there any Linux-based mastering engineers around (i.e. on this
> > list) who'd want to take on a project like this, for a rate that we
> > might be able to actually justify? 
4:34 a.m.
On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 03:30:58PM -0700, Ken Restivo wrote :
We're almost done with a 12-track, 40-minute-long
CD, recorded partially in Ardour and mixed entirely in Ardour.
We should probably get it mastered. However, "pro" mastering houses want like
$500 for a CD. We haven't made that much money in a year. I think we spent a total of
$80 on recording it. So, not likely that we'll be justify big bucks to get it
mastered.
I suppose I could run it through Jamin myself, and just hope for the best, but I
don't know squat about mastering.
Are there any Linux-based mastering engineers around (i.e. on this list) who'd want
to take on a project like this, for a rate that we might be able to actually justify?
Hi,
I'm part of a studio which do mastering with Jamin (and which can also
use TL-Audio to "warm up" signals) => http://studio.ammd.net
However, this studio belongs to a label, and we only work for the label
artists (so that we're sure that the production remains free art with
time!).
Don't know exactly how we can help you, but we surely can and want, so
just contact us : orl@ammd[dot]justfillthegoodextension or
charly@ammd[dot]justfillthegoodextension.
At least, I think you may send us your bounces, and we can look to what
we would do on it, and send it back to you (or send the jamin file back
to you).
Mastering is not such a "magical thing"!
-ken
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-user mailing list
Linux-audio-user(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-user
--
Aurélien
5:42 a.m.
Ken Restivo wrote:
We're almost done with a 12-track, 40-minute-long
CD, recorded partially in Ardour and mixed entirely in Ardour.
We should probably get it mastered. However, "pro" mastering houses want like
$500 for a CD. We haven't made that much money in a year. I think we spent a total of
$80 on recording it. So, not likely that we'll be justify big bucks to get it
mastered.
I suppose I could run it through Jamin myself, and just hope for the best, but I
don't know squat about mastering.
Are there any Linux-based mastering engineers around (i.e. on this list) who'd want
to take on a project like this, for a rate that we might be able to actually justify?
-ken
Quentin Harley's guide for mastering with Linux tools is also worth
checking out:
http://www.64studio.com/howto-mastering
Tapani
6:34 a.m.
On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 10:42:46AM +0300, Tapani Sysimets? wrote:
Ken Restivo wrote:
Thanks.
One of the things I love about the Linux world, was recently brought home to me by my bass
player, who also works in some punk bands-- he noted that I do things in a very
"DIY" way.
I guess it's hard to get more DIY than making your own software, or operating system,
for that matter. DIY culture is so deep in the Linux world that I didn't even notice
it, much as fish probably don't notice water. Until of course I stepped out for a
moment.
So it's nice that I posted a request looking to hire someone to master tracks, and
instead I got a bunch of very helpful links and advice on how instead, to just study up
and learn how to DIY it myself.
So, why not, I guess I'll do that. For much less than the price of a single mastering
session, I could probably buy some decent monitors, and learn how to use JAMIN (and
whatever else) properly.
Thanks again all.
-ken
We're almost done with a 12-track,
40-minute-long CD, recorded partially in Ardour and mixed entirely in Ardour.
We should probably get it mastered. However, "pro" mastering houses want like
$500 for a CD. We haven't made that much money in a year. I think we spent a total of
$80 on recording it. So, not likely that we'll be justify big bucks to get it
mastered.
I suppose I could run it through Jamin myself, and just hope for the best, but I
don't know squat about mastering.
Are there any Linux-based mastering engineers around (i.e. on this list) who'd want
to take on a project like this, for a rate that we might be able to actually justify?
-ken
Quentin Harley's guide for mastering with Linux tools is also worth
checking out:
http://www.64studio.com/howto-mastering
11:40 a.m.
Are there any Linux-based mastering engineers around (i.e. on this list)
who'd want to take on a project like this, for a rate that we might be able
to actually justify?
Hi Ken,
I'm a sound engineer based in Italy and i work at the Kubistudio, a FLOSS
based studio estabilished in Milan. I have some experience with mastering
so, if you agree, i could try with one song first and if you like the result
we could continue the collaboration for the whole record.
Take care
Giorgio Baù
Sound engineer
giorgio(a)kubistudio.it
www.kubistudio.it
www.myspace.com/kubistudio
12:04 p.m.
On Monday 29 March 2010 04:32:55 Ken Restivo wrote:
So, why not, I guess I'll do that. For much less
than the price of a single
mastering session, I could probably buy some decent monitors, and learn how
to use JAMIN (and whatever else) properly.
With your ears? Or am I mis-remembering a recent thread? ~;-)
Thanks again all.
-ken
drew
12:56 p.m.
On 29/03/2010, drew Roberts <zotz(a)100jamz.com> wrote:
On Monday 29 March 2010 04:32:55 Ken Restivo wrote:
I consider mastering a whole different game. It doesn't come with
knowledge, but with knowledge and more experience, and a facility
worth more than I can earn in a year. You've got to have at least 2
different rooms and a car stereo, not to mention a number of different
monitors and speakers ranging from $10 to $1000++.
So most of us actually do submasters, or leave it up to someone who
has been mastering for the last 20 years (more than $500).
And the best part is, for really good mixes, the only thing to master
would be the level, so the engineer just inserts one of those
plug-ins, pushes the fader up, and tells you it's done. First-hand
experience.
--
GPG/PGP ID: B42DDCAD
So, why not, I guess I'll do that. For much
less than the price of a
single
mastering session, I could probably buy some decent monitors, and learn
how
to use JAMIN (and whatever else) properly.
With your ears? Or am I mis-remembering a recent thread? ~;-)
>
> Thanks again all.
4:33 p.m.
On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 10:56:46PM +0800, Ray Rashif wrote:
On 29/03/2010, drew Roberts <zotz(a)100jamz.com>
wrote:
Ding-ding-ding-ding!! That's what I suspected all along, and my reading so far
confirms it.
So far, it seems like what is today called "mastering", is what back in the day,
used to call MIXING. Keeping the levels consistent. Making sure all the frequency ranges
are well-represnented. Hauling out any annoying peaks or resonances. Resolving conflicts
between sounds in a frequency range. I believe this should all be done with faders and EQ
and compressors IN THE MIX.
And, yes, to do it properly, it helps to have years of experience and lots of expensive
equipment. But that used to be called MIXING, and it happened before printing to 2-track
30ips tape and handing that to the mastering engineer (who would hand the mastered tape to
a cutting engineer, who'd make an acetate test pressing and hand that back to you).
So far, from everything I've read recently (and remember from way back then),
mastering was just making sure the needle didn't jump out of the grooves when ths
vynil LP was pressed-- squeezing the dynamic and frequency ranges to deal with the
limitations of vynil.
I suspect that once the CD era came along, mastering engineers found themselves more or
less out of a job, until the home and project studio explosion, when people would walk in
with all kinds of crappy mixes done by amateurs on lousy equipment, and the mastering
engineers found a new source of income in trying to fix these lousy mixes at the mastering
stage. Which I could imagine would definitely not be easy, and would require a tremendous
amount of skill and expertise (and patience).
And then of course we got into the "loudness wars" era, where everything is
supposed to have all its sounds between -2 and 0 db. "Make it sound louder than
so-and-so's record".
But back to your point, I agree: if the mixes are well-done, mastering should just be
maybe applying a final blast of compression using the engineer's favorite
compressor-of-choice. Done, that'll be US$500 please.
It seems to me, again from the reading I've done, that if the mix sounds good on
shitty iPod earbuds and 1cm-diameter laptop speakers, then it's mission accomplished,
since thet's what everyone is going to listen to it on anyway. Unless of course
you're mixing for clubs, in which case mix it on a bangin loud club system with a
subwoofer to make sure it works there, or for film or theatre, in which case it's best
to mix it on those systems, etc etc..
So AFAICT our audience will be listening on iPods and laptops (I'll check with the
guys to to make sure). If so, I think I'll go that route: get the mixes as good as I
can get them, then run it through JAMIN set to grab just the highest peaks in each of the
frequency ranges, and call it done.
-ken
On Monday 29 March 2010 04:32:55 Ken Restivo
wrote:
I consider mastering a whole different game. It doesn't come with
knowledge, but with knowledge and more experience, and a facility
worth more than I can earn in a year. You've got to have at least 2
different rooms and a car stereo, not to mention a number of different
monitors and speakers ranging from $10 to $1000++.
So most of us actually do submasters, or leave it up to someone who
has been mastering for the last 20 years (more than $500).
And the best part is, for really good mixes, the only thing to master
would be the level, so the engineer just inserts one of those
plug-ins, pushes the fader up, and tells you it's done. First-hand
experience.
So, why not, I guess I'll do that. For much
less than the price of a
single
mastering session, I could probably buy some decent monitors, and learn
how
to use JAMIN (and whatever else) properly.
With your ears? Or am I mis-remembering a recent thread? ~;-)
>
> Thanks again all. 
4:38 p.m.
On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 2:31 PM, Ken Restivo <ken(a)restivo.org> wrote:
It seems to me, again from the reading I've done,
that if the mix sounds good on shitty iPod earbuds and 1cm-diameter laptop speakers, then
it's mission accomplished, since thet's what everyone is going to listen to it on
anyway. Unless of course you're mixing for clubs, in which case mix it on a bangin
loud club system with a subwoofer to make sure it works there, or for film or theatre, in
which case it's best to mix it on those systems, etc etc..
just this morning, i was driving in the car and listening to The
Pineapple Thief (track: Shoot First, from "Tightly Unwound"). I was
*amazed* at how terrible some sections of its sound in the car,
whereas in the studio or via ipod earphones, its pretty awesome. when
i say terrible, i mean "hurts my ears terrible".
you simply can't be making this kind of assumption, i claim. a good
mastering job makes sure that it sounds OK on *all* likely listening
systems.
--p
4:42 p.m.
On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 02:38:29PM -0400, Paul Davis wrote:
On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 2:31 PM, Ken Restivo
<ken(a)restivo.org> wrote:
Or a good mixing job.
-ken
It seems to me, again from the reading I've
done, that if the mix sounds good on shitty iPod earbuds and 1cm-diameter laptop speakers,
then it's mission accomplished, since thet's what everyone is going to listen to
it on anyway. Unless of course you're mixing for clubs, in which case mix it on a
bangin loud club system with a subwoofer to make sure it works there, or for film or
theatre, in which case it's best to mix it on those systems, etc etc..
just this morning, i was driving in the car and listening to The
Pineapple Thief (track: Shoot First, from "Tightly Unwound"). I was
*amazed* at how terrible some sections of its sound in the car,
whereas in the studio or via ipod earphones, its pretty awesome. when
i say terrible, i mean "hurts my ears terrible".
you simply can't be making this kind of assumption, i claim. a good
mastering job makes sure that it sounds OK on *all* likely listening
systems.
5:48 p.m.
On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 02:38:29PM -0400, Paul Davis wrote:
you simply can't be making this kind of
assumption, i claim. a good
mastering job makes sure that it sounds OK on *all* likely listening
systems.
According to my supervisor at the time I was doing mixes
all days, it was *my* job to ensure things sounded well
on all kind of systems and at all levels. And doing it
while mixing gives you a lot more freedom to do it right
than trying to 'fix' a stereo signal.
Ciao,
--
FA
O tu, che porte, correndo si ?
E guerra e morte !
1 Apr
1 Apr
10:03 p.m.
On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 09:44:20PM +0200, fons(a)kokkinizita.net wrote:
On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 02:38:29PM -0400, Paul Davis
wrote:
Well a friend was kind enough to lend me his expensive studio monitors (Fostex PM-2), and,
listening to my mixes on them, they sound like ass. Sure enough, there are tons of
problems in the high-midrange region that my crappy headphones and Cambridge SoundWorks
home stereo just were not turning up. So I've been spending the last few days
re-EQ'ing, re-compressing, and re-leveling.
If I had enormous amounts of money laying around, I'd probably invest in some
Ultrasone headphones and some KRK monitors.
Thanks to everyone for their advice and ideas. Still haven't decided what to do
regarding mastering, but leaning towards just getting something going in JAMIN for now and
maybe remastering later on if we make enough money to justify it.
-ken
you simply can't be making this kind of
assumption, i claim. a good
mastering job makes sure that it sounds OK on *all* likely listening
systems.
According to my supervisor at the time I was doing mixes
all days, it was *my* job to ensure things sounded well
on all kind of systems and at all levels. And doing it
while mixing gives you a lot more freedom to do it right
than trying to 'fix' a stereo signal.
2 Apr
2 Apr
9:05 p.m.
On Thu, Apr 01, 2010 at 05:01:30PM -0700, Ken Restivo wrote:
On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 09:44:20PM +0200,
fons(a)kokkinizita.net wrote:
Mixing on headphones is *really* one thing to be avoided.
I'll do it only if there's no 'mixing' at all involved,
e.g. recording classical music with just a stereo pair,
and even then it can give you a completely shifted picture.
Most home systems are designed to be flattering rather
than revealing, that makes them sell, so mixing on those
is a bad idea as well.
On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 02:38:29PM -0400, Paul
Davis wrote:
Well a friend was kind enough to lend me his expensive studio monitors (Fostex PM-2),
and, listening to my mixes on them, they sound like ass. Sure enough, there are tons of
problems in the high-midrange region that my crappy headphones and Cambridge SoundWorks
home stereo just were not turning up. So I've been spending the last few days
re-EQ'ing, re-compressing, and re-leveling. you simply can't be making this kind of
assumption, i claim. a good
mastering job makes sure that it sounds OK on *all* likely listening
systems.
According to my supervisor at the time I was doing mixes
all days, it was *my* job to ensure things sounded well
on all kind of systems and at all levels. And doing it
while mixing gives you a lot more freedom to do it right
than trying to 'fix' a stereo signal.
If I had enormous amounts of money laying around,
I'd probably invest in some Ultrasone headphones and some KRK monitors.
Forget the headphones. Put your money into a pair of good
small near-field monitors, and learn to mix on those.
Regarding the more general mastering issue, you can make
a recording sound acceptable on a cheap car radio, and maybe
there are reasons to do that, but it will be a compromise.
The result will be that it doesn't sound as well as it could
on a decent system.
My usual approach was to mix on a pair of quite small near-
field boxes, occasionaly check for problems on the big studio
monitors, but keep focussed on the small ones. When those
sounded right, record it. Then switch to the big ones, and
of course that would sound spectacular. And then, if there
was some time left, improve the mix on those by undoing the
things done to make the mix work on the cheap boxes. The
result would be a sound that was *less* spectacular, but
in the long term, just better.
Ciao,
--
FA
O tu, che porte, correndo si ?
E guerra e morte !
1 Apr
1 Apr
5:03 a.m.
On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 02:38:29PM -0400, Paul Davis wrote :
On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 2:31 PM, Ken Restivo
<ken(a)restivo.org> wrote:
I deepy unagree with that, just because (at least) it's totally
impossible to get such a thing. What would sound *really* OK on an iPOD
will probably sound like an iPOD on most of the system.
Universality is a "sans-issue" goal.
Last but not least, I've been working with several mastering ingeneers,
some of them using waves plugins (in Wavelab or this T* thing under
Mac), some others (more expensive) using Sadie systems, and so on.
And some others working with JAMIN, too (including me).
What I finally found is that the money you spent in a "*good* mastering
engineer, you lose it in the time he will spent on your music. So if you
play (or record) a very standard music (like very classic punk rock, or
whatever), he probably will give you something you might be happy with.
However, I doubt you won't have reached such a point with more time and
less money. And it assumed, anyway, that your bounces were already
really well-mixed (I mean, equilibrium OK, "montage" OK, and on so on)
If you play something a bit more special (including
different kind of masters all over the CD), it's just inept to give 500$
to a engineer which will pass 3-4 hours on it (so listening, in the best
prevision, two times your whole piece, one to discover, one for master
settings).
I repeat it, mastering is not such a magical thing, exactly like mix.
The fact is that there are so much legends, habits, uses, and so on,
that everybody is scared of doing anything, fearing what people may
think of it. Just let you ears work, and when you find it cool, it looks
like you reach something quite fine.
Actually, you HAVE to listen to your master on several systems, so that
you might see if there are some "acceptable" devices on which it just
sounds crappy (considering all the causes of this crappy sound, your
engine noise in a car, Loudspeaker fat low-mid resonance, ...).
To end up, all experiences mentionned above lead to CD publication,
distributed worldwidely, and also in digital. Not a review, not a
purchaser, not a fan just told us anything about sound when we changed
our way of mastering. (Actually, I should precise that some people
complained when we mastered by this very skilled Sadie user -which
works for Universal/Virgin/Naive...- that the CD was too loud and get
their Hi-Fi system to distord... Nice, thanks.....).
DIY is the way, I'm sure of it!
By the way, the proposal I made to you to work a bit on your songs is
unlikely to happen, as it's not going to be free art, if I understood
all.
See you.
PS : some words in French that I couldn't translate.
--
Aurélien
It seems to me, again from the reading I've
done, that if the mix sounds good on shitty iPod earbuds and 1cm-diameter laptop speakers,
then it's mission accomplished, since thet's what everyone is going to listen to
it on anyway. Unless of course you're mixing for clubs, in which case mix it on a
bangin loud club system with a subwoofer to make sure it works there, or for film or
theatre, in which case it's best to mix it on those systems, etc etc..
just this morning, i was driving in the car and listening to The
Pineapple Thief (track: Shoot First, from "Tightly Unwound"). I was
*amazed* at how terrible some sections of its sound in the car,
whereas in the studio or via ipod earphones, its pretty awesome. when
i say terrible, i mean "hurts my ears terrible".
you simply can't be making this kind of assumption, i claim. a good
mastering job makes sure that it sounds OK on *all* likely listening
systems. 
29 Mar
29 Mar
5:24 p.m.
On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:31:45 -0700
Ken Restivo <ken(a)restivo.org> wrote:
So far, it seems like what is today called
"mastering", is what back in
the day, used to call MIXING.
As I've been fond of saying for years, quoting someone whose name I have
forgotten (but is probably either Brian Eno or Mitch Easter), mastering
is what makes a record sound like a record.
If the mixing was brilliantly done, it's likely to be little more than
some light compression to make the entire recording sound consistent, but
it also brings EQing and other sonic treatments into the mix when needed.
Side note: when my son's band took their album to the mastering studio,
they got tremendously excited when the engineer decided that what it
needed was a dump to an Ampex reel-to-reel to add some of that good old
fashioned tape compression. Damned if he wasn't right, too. They spent
around a grand to get it mastered, and the engineer also helped them
work in the connecting sounds they use to "glue" the tracks together.
They were skeptical going into the process that the mastering would make
a real audible difference besides more compression, but they left feeling
it was $1000 well-spent. It sounds fantastic now.
--
======================================================================
Joe Hartley - UNIX/network Consultant - jh(a)brainiac.com
Without deviation from the norm, "progress" is not possible. - FZappa
5:43 p.m.
On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 11:31:45AM -0700, Ken Restivo wrote:
Ding-ding-ding-ding!! That's what I suspected all
along, and my reading so far confirms it.
So far, it seems like what is today called
"mastering", is what back in the day, used to call MIXING. Keeping the levels
consistent. Making sure all the frequency ranges are well-represnented. Hauling out any
annoying peaks or resonances. Resolving conflicts between sounds in a frequency range. I
believe this should all be done with faders and EQ and compressors IN THE MIX.
And, yes, to do it properly, it helps to have years of experience and lots of expensive
equipment. But that used to be called MIXING, and it happened before printing to 2-track
30ips tape and handing that to the mastering engineer (who would hand the mastered tape to
a cutting engineer, who'd make an acetate test pressing and hand that back to you).
So far, from everything I've read recently (and remember from way back then),
mastering was just making sure the needle didn't jump out of the grooves when ths
vynil LP was pressed-- squeezing the dynamic and frequency ranges to deal with the
limitations of vynil.
I suspect that once the CD era came along, mastering engineers found themselves more or
less out of a job, until the home and project studio explosion, when people would walk in
with all kinds of crappy mixes done by amateurs on lousy equipment, and the mastering
engineers found a new source of income in trying to fix these lousy mixes at the mastering
stage. Which I could imagine would definitely not be easy, and would require a tremendous
amount of skill and expertise (and patience).
And then of course we got into the "loudness wars" era, where everything is
supposed to have all its sounds between -2 and 0 db. "Make it sound louder than
so-and-so's record".
But back to your point, I agree: if the mixes are well-done, mastering should just be
maybe applying a final blast of compression using the engineer's favorite
compressor-of-choice. Done, that'll be US$500 please.
Couldn't agree more.
Ciao,
--
FA
O tu, che porte, correndo si ?
E guerra e morte !
30 Mar
30 Mar
7:37 p.m.
On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 3:30 PM, Ken Restivo <ken(a)restivo.org> wrote:
We're almost done with a 12-track, 40-minute-long
CD, recorded partially in Ardour and mixed entirely in Ardour.
We should probably get it mastered. However, "pro" mastering houses want like
$500 for a CD. We haven't made that much money in a year. I think we spent a total of
$80 on recording it. So, not likely that we'll be justify big bucks to get it
mastered.
I suppose I could run it through Jamin myself, and just hope for the best, but I
don't know squat about mastering.
Are there any Linux-based mastering engineers around (i.e. on this list) who'd want
to take on a project like this, for a rate that we might be able to actually justify?
-ken
Hi Ken,
First, good luck with your work. I hope it all comes out well.
I guess I'm sort of the odd man out here. I see mastering a bit
differently than it usually gets talked about here. That's OK I guess,
but just warning you up front. I've only been involved with a few
project that we professionally mastered, and they were done by pretty
expensive places. That said the mastering engineers did some really
great work. So I'd say if you can afford it (which I cannot) then it
was a good place to spend money from my experience.
The things we felt we got from professional mastering:
1) A more consistent product across all types of listening
environments. (As stated by others, high end stereos, low end stereos,
radio, cars, etc.)
2) A new set of ears that listened to the songs as a group and helped
with the order they should appear in, or helped with the overall
sounds so that one song supported the next. this gave us some good
inputs.
3) Access to equipment that we couldn't afford, mostly in the form of
high end compressors and limiters.
Reading that I've done would suggest that a good way to master
these days is to provide the mastering engineer from 4-6 stubs per
song - things like lead vocal, backup vocals, drums, keyboards,
strings, whatever, premixed with whatever processing makes sense in
the mix. The mastering engineer then takes these groups and uses his
own equipment to give the proper sort of dynamics that will make them
work. A good mastering engineer isn't going to change the song but
rather build a final house using your building blocks. It's not his
job to create the blocks - just to put them together in a gentle but
appropriate way.
Anyway, as I said, I think I'm seeing this from a different
perspective so don't take me too seriously, especially since what I'm
talking about costs serious bucks which few of us around here (most
especially me!) have.
Cheers,
Mark
1 Apr
1 Apr
5:07 a.m.
On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 02:37:20PM -0700, Mark Knecht wrote :
On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 3:30 PM, Ken Restivo
<ken(a)restivo.org> wrote:
That's a real point. However, it also leads to "people who knows less
accurately the structure/aims/feelings of the piece".
We're almost done with a 12-track,
40-minute-long CD, recorded partially in Ardour and mixed entirely in Ardour.
We should probably get it mastered. However, "pro" mastering houses want like
$500 for a CD. We haven't made that much money in a year. I think we spent a total of
$80 on recording it. So, not likely that we'll be justify big bucks to get it
mastered.
I suppose I could run it through Jamin myself, and just hope for the best, but I
don't know squat about mastering.
Are there any Linux-based mastering engineers around (i.e. on this list) who'd want
to take on a project like this, for a rate that we might be able to actually justify?
-ken
Hi Ken,
First, good luck with your work. I hope it all comes out well.
I guess I'm sort of the odd man out here. I see mastering a bit
differently than it usually gets talked about here. That's OK I guess,
but just warning you up front. I've only been involved with a few
project that we professionally mastered, and they were done by pretty
expensive places. That said the mastering engineers did some really
great work. So I'd say if you can afford it (which I cannot) then it
was a good place to spend money from my experience.
The things we felt we got from professional mastering:
1) A more consistent product across all types of listening
environments. (As stated by others, high end stereos, low end stereos,
radio, cars, etc.)
2) A new set of ears that listened to the songs as a group and helped
with the order they should appear in, or helped with the overall
sounds so that one song supported the next. this gave us some good
inputs.
3) Access to equipment that we couldn't afford, mostly in the form of
high end compressors and limiters.
See my previous mail concerning that.
(but be aware I use Line6 amp simulators with a Leduc bass, which is, in
some way, kind of a heresy!!!)
--
Aurélien
31 Mar
31 Mar
8:24 a.m.
On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 12:30 AM, Ken Restivo <ken(a)restivo.org> wrote:
We're almost done with a 12-track, 40-minute-long
CD, recorded partially in
Ardour and mixed entirely in Ardour.
We should probably get it mastered. However, "pro" mastering houses want
like $500 for a CD. We haven't made that much money in a year. I think we
spent a total of $80 on recording it. So, not likely that we'll be justify
big bucks to get it mastered.
I suppose I could run it through Jamin myself, and just hope for the best,
but I don't know squat about mastering.
Are there any Linux-based mastering engineers around (i.e. on this list)
who'd want to take on a project like this, for a rate that we might be able
to actually justify?
This could be a benefit of the community too of course. Some mastering
engineer who is willing to take a project like this (and earn money with
it).
\r
5351
days inactive
5356
days old
linux-audio-user@lists.linuxaudio.org
23 comments
13 participants
participants (13)
-
Aurelien -
drew Roberts -
Folderol -
fons＠kokkinizita.net -
Giorgio - Audiophilo -
Joe Hartley -
Ken Restivo -
Mark Knecht -
Paul Davis -
Ray Rashif -
Ronald Stewart -
rosea grammostola -
Tapani Sysimetsä