9 Oct
2003
9 Oct
'03
12:46 p.m.
Hi,
isn't this a linux list? ;-)
Try Winamp 2.x, the newer versions have included
ogg support and there is a plug-in for the older
verions.
Winamp 3.x is crap.
Regards,
Joachim
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Mark Knecht [mailto:mknecht@controlnet.com]
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 9. Oktober 2003 16:07
An: Linux-Audio-User
Betreff: [linux-audio-user] ogg player for Windows?
Hi,
Windows Media Player doesn't handle ogg files. Is there a Windows app
that would allow my to listen to ogg files?
(That other hijacked thread has an ogg link, but I couldn't bear to
hijack the thread in yet another direction!) ;-)
Thanks,
Mark
9 Oct
9 Oct
1:27 p.m.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Joachim Backhaus wrote:
| Hi,
|
| isn't this a linux list? ;-)
I'm sorry too :)
|
| Try Winamp 2.x, the newer versions have included
| ogg support and there is a plug-in for the older
| verions.
|
| Winamp 3.x is crap.
|
| Regards,
| Joachim
|
| -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
| Von: Mark Knecht [mailto:mknecht@controlnet.com]
| Gesendet: Donnerstag, 9. Oktober 2003 16:07
| An: Linux-Audio-User
| Betreff: [linux-audio-user] ogg player for Windows?
|
|
| Hi,
| Windows Media Player doesn't handle ogg files. Is there a Windows app
| that would allow my to listen to ogg files?
|
| (That other hijacked thread has an ogg link, but I couldn't bear to
| hijack the thread in yet another direction!) ;-)
Actually, it's very easy to listen to ogg files with media player. You
need the direct filter for that:
http://tobias.everwicked.com/oggds.htm
Otherwise, give this cool player a try:
http://foobar2000.org/
- --
Robin Y. Millette (aka Lord D. Nattor)
http://rym.waglo.com
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7:13 p.m.
Hi,
On Thursday 09 October 2003 15:30, Joachim Backhaus wrote:
isn't this a linux list? ;-)
Yes, and the question is a highly pertinent one if you think about it for a
moment. I manage a music website - using Linux entirely nowadays - I'd dearly
love to scrap all the .mp3 files in favour of .oggs but it occurs to me that
this would mean /most/ of my readers won't listen to the music - it's fairly
unlikely that I'm going to be able to persuade the majority of them to
download /anything/ regardless of how easy any of us think it is to do.
-my2p-
tim hall
7:51 p.m.
Hallo,
tim hall hat gesagt: // tim hall wrote:
I'd dearly love to scrap all the .mp3 files in
favour of .oggs but
it occurs to me that this would mean /most/ of my readers won't
listen to the music - it's fairly unlikely that I'm going to be able
to persuade the majority of them to download /anything/ regardless
of how easy any of us think it is to do.
This is even worse on MacOS. I didn't find a single functional free
Ogg player for OS9 yet, which some of my friends run.
ciao
--
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
7:58 p.m.
Hi,
On Thursday 09 October 2003 15:30, Joachim Backhaus wrote:
Tim,
I completely agree. I've been a Windows user for what, 15 years now?. I
have 5 PCs at home. I've dealt with enough buggy Windows audio software over
the years, so I download and install almost nothing unless I have some form
of assurance from people I trust that it's good stuff that won't mess my
system up. Even with that experience today is the first time I've listened
to an .ogg on any Windows PC.
Granted, I'm a careful guy, but I think from your perspective it's way
more difficult. I've known for a long time what an .ogg is, but when you
come across one Windows Media Player doesn't tell the casual user anything
about making it work. It just says it won't play it. You can attempt to put
instructions on-line, but careful people like me probably won't use them
unless there's something important about what we want to listen to. Worse is
that something goes wrong and people blame you. That's really bad for
business I'm sure.
And on the other hand, Linux based musicians who *want* their music to be
heard are cutting their nose off not making it extremely available through
mp3s. Frankly, independent of the perceived advantages of .ogg over mp3
(open source, sounds better, no licensing issues or royalty payments) it's
just good business to make your product usable by more people. That leads to
good stuff. Forcing people to go to .ogg seems like it's backwards to the
open source movement.
Mark
isn't this a linux list? ;-)
Yes, and the question is a highly pertinent one if you think
about it for a
moment. I manage a music website - using Linux entirely nowadays
- I'd dearly
love to scrap all the .mp3 files in favour of .oggs but it occurs
to me that
this would mean /most/ of my readers won't listen to the music -
it's fairly
unlikely that I'm going to be able to persuade the majority of them to
download /anything/ regardless of how easy any of us think it is to do.
-my2p-
tim hall
8:58 p.m.
Hallo,
Mark Knecht hat gesagt: // Mark Knecht wrote:
And on the other hand, Linux based musicians who
*want* their music to be
heard are cutting their nose off not making it extremely available through
mp3s. Frankly, independent of the perceived advantages of .ogg over mp3
(open source, sounds better, no licensing issues or royalty payments) it's
just good business to make your product usable by more people. That leads to
good stuff. Forcing people to go to .ogg seems like it's backwards to the
open source movement.
I disagree. I see a necessity in trying to force people to use ogg or
any other free (as speech) codec, before "digital rights protected"
codecs get more widely used. It's politics, but I think it important.
Mp3 is not an alternative here, because there already are more
powerful commercial and DRM enabled codecs available and it is an
important task to not let these take over.
ciao
--
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
10:29 p.m.
Frank Barknecht wrote:
Hallo,
Mark Knecht hat gesagt: // Mark Knecht wrote:
I back you on this Frank. It's roughly equivalent to gpl'ing code. At
least from a philosophical perspective if not legal. Anyone who tries to
pass off an open source ogg release as their own music is just lame but
they should be encouraged to sample it and rework it to their hearts
content. I just wish flac was more widely accepted but that ain't gonna
happen.
Imagine if all cdplayers understood flac instead of cdda...
--
Patrick Shirkey - Boost Hardware Ltd.
Http://www.boosthardware.com
Http://www.djcj.org - The Linux Audio Users guide
========================================
Being on stage with the band in front of crowds shouting, "Get off! No!
We want normal music!", I think that was more like acting than anything
I've ever done.
Goldie, 8 Nov, 2002
The Scotsman
And on the other hand, Linux based musicians
who *want* their music to be
heard are cutting their nose off not making it extremely available through
mp3s. Frankly, independent of the perceived advantages of .ogg over mp3
(open source, sounds better, no licensing issues or royalty payments) it's
just good business to make your product usable by more people. That leads to
good stuff. Forcing people to go to .ogg seems like it's backwards to the
open source movement.
I disagree. I see a necessity in trying to force people to use ogg or
any other free (as speech) codec, before "digital rights protected"
codecs get more widely used. It's politics, but I think it important.
Mp3 is not an alternative here, because there already are more
powerful commercial and DRM enabled codecs available and it is an
important task to not let these take over.
11:50 p.m.
On Thu, 2003-10-09 at 15:46, Patrick Shirkey wrote:
I back you on this Frank. It's roughly equivalent to gpl'ing code. At
least from a philosophical perspective if not legal. Anyone who tries to
pass off an open source ogg release as their own music is just lame but
they should be encouraged to sample it and rework it to their hearts
content. I just wish flac was more widely accepted but that ain't gonna
happen.
Patrick,
I didn't understand your point. I didn't think we were talking about
passing other people's music off as our own. I thought we were saying
that Windows users cannot listen to ogg files without making adjustments
to their systems.
I guess I just didn't follow your point.
Cheers,
Mark
Frank Barknecht wrote:
> Hallo,
> Mark Knecht hat gesagt: // Mark Knecht wrote:
>
>
>> And on the other hand, Linux based musicians who *want* their music to be
>>heard are cutting their nose off not making it extremely available through
>>mp3s. Frankly, independent of the perceived advantages of .ogg over mp3
>>(open source, sounds better, no licensing issues or royalty payments) it's
>>just good business to make your product usable by more people. That leads to
>>good stuff. Forcing people to go to .ogg seems like it's backwards to the
>>open source movement.
>
>
> I disagree. I see a necessity in trying to force people to use ogg or
> any other free (as speech) codec, before "digital rights protected"
> codecs get more widely used. It's politics, but I think it important.
> Mp3 is not an alternative here, because there already are more
> powerful commercial and DRM enabled codecs available and it is an
> important task to not let these take over.
Frank,
I acknowledge your right to have this opinion, but it isn't going to
change the basic fact that if a Windows user doesn't know how to listen
to your ogg, he isn't going to hear it.
I think the real job to be done is to make ogg a standard that's
accepted by M$ one fo these days and just included in their Media Player
releases, so the user doesn't have to figure this stuff out. As I said,
I went 15 years without bothering until today. (Of course, I am a bit
slow!) ;-)
Mark
10 Oct
10 Oct
12:30 a.m.
I think the real job to be done is to make ogg a
standard that's
accepted by M$ one fo these days and just included in their Media Player
releases, so the user doesn't have to figure this stuff out. As I said,
open formats are complete anathema to microsoft. They will
*never* *ever* support ogg until the US government does its job
properly.
with wma becoming the standard for commercial releases, its very
sad.
personally i feel its important to lead by example, while at
the same time recognising that not everyone is in a position to
be able to do the same...
greetz
--
Tim Orford
2:38 a.m.
On Thu, 2003-10-09 at 18:55, Tim Orford wrote:
Yes, sadly quite true...
I think the
real job to be done is to make ogg a standard that's
accepted by M$ one fo these days and just included in their Media Player
releases, so the user doesn't have to figure this stuff out. As I said,
open formats are complete anathema to microsoft. They will
*never* *ever* support ogg until the US government does its job
properly.
with wma becoming the standard for commercial releases, its very
sad.
Yes...
personally i feel its important to lead by example, while at
the same time recognising that not everyone is in a position to
be able to do the same...
Sure. No problem. However, don't necessarily think everyone wants to be
an example. I've posted mp3 + ra in the past. I could add .ogg to that
in the future to support the cause without cutting off my own nose,
right?
Take care,
Mark
4:31 a.m.
Mark Knecht wrote:
Sure. No one will stop you...selll hout... You could always add a brief
explanation of what ogg is and why it exists to give your audience the
chance to make a conscious choice instead of just going for the format
they have been told to use by big brother...
--
Patrick Shirkey - Boost Hardware Ltd.
Http://www.boosthardware.com
Http://www.djcj.org - The Linux Audio Users guide
========================================
Being on stage with the band in front of crowds shouting, "Get off! No!
We want normal music!", I think that was more like acting than anything
I've ever done.
Goldie, 8 Nov, 2002
The Scotsman
personally i feel its important to lead by
example, while at
the same time recognising that not everyone is in a position to
be able to do the same...
Sure. No problem. However, don't necessarily think everyone wants to be
an example. I've posted mp3 + ra in the past. I could add .ogg to that
in the future to support the cause without cutting off my own nose,
right?
4:59 a.m.
<SNIP> You could always add a brief
explanation of what ogg is and why it exists to give your audience the
chance to make a conscious choice instead of just going for the format
they have been told to use by big brother...
I kinda like that one. that's even not too bad on the marketing side - you
can get that niche that likes to be ahead of the pc game, or ahead of big
brother - especially if your image is that matrix revolution type thing.
gotta make it easy though. hmmm....
2:17 p.m.
On Fri, Oct 10, 2003 at 01:48:44PM +0900, Patrick Shirkey wrote:
Sure. No one will stop you...selll hout... You could
always add a brief
explanation of what ogg is and why it exists to give your audience the
chance to make a conscious choice instead of just going for the format
they have been told to use by big brother...
That's exactly what I'm trying to do. MS isn't going to include OGG in
their player unless users are aware that it's a feature worth having,
and that won't happen if they'd never heard of it. We have to start
somewhere. My site has both MP3 and Ogg files on it and I'm at pains to
(a) to explain what Ogg is and (b) to make it clear that it isn't a
linux-only format (yes, people do believe that)
Actually the isuue of DRM and that Ogg will never be affected by it
might be a good point to make in that context.
--
Anahata
anahata(a)treewind.co.uk -+- http://www.treewind.co.uk
Home: 01638 720444 Mob: 07976 263827
3:26 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] That whole mp3 vs. ogg vs. wma vs. yomamma thing
The biggest internet music demographic, be it legal or not, is adolescent
kids in suburbia. As an adolescent kid in suburbia with 3 adolescent
siblings, I can tell you with confidence from experience in my house and
with friends that .mp3 is the king of internet music formats by at least
an order of magnitude.
People in my realm get internet music from three types of locations, in
descending order of frequency:
1) P2P (mainly KaZaA)
2) mp3.com et al
3) Ripped CDs
In all cases, mp3 is the lingua franca, the de facto standard. Formats
such as wma and ra are considered laughable, they sound so much worse
until the file size reaches gargantuan proportions. The only people using
such formats are 'Tools of the Man', so to speak, and as you can see from
the above list, none of the real music listeners give two craps about
them. Posting in ogg isn't that big a deal, winamp can play them and I'm
pretty sure the internal player in KaZaA can also. These kids aren't as
hesitant as most grownups either, if you tell them that "you need to
download and run X to use superior format Y" they'll do it.
The problem, as I see it, is distribution. To take advantage of the big
daddy, P2P, people gotta know who you are and want your stuff in advance.
You can try using misleading filenames or info tags so that your stuff
gets accidentaly downloaded, but I personally just delete stuff like
that, so I wouldn't recommed it. You have a better chance of getting
heard by option 2, the music websites, if someone is doing genre
browsing, but then you're going to have to use mp3. As for CD ripping...
well, if that even becomes an option then we've already won IMHO.
In my perfect world, everyone would use ogg or flac or some other equally
libre format. In order to help realize that goal, we need to gain
musical clout so that the kids look up to us, and then choose to
distribute solely in formats that we endorse. We gotta have that clout
first, however, and we aren't gonna get that without compromising. A
good solution, in my pea brain, is to setup an account with something
like mp3.com and post a few _good_ songs (the songs have to be _good_ or
else we're dead in the water). If you get the kid's attention, they'll
check out your personal artist page, from which you can link to your
homepage where they can get "even more and newer" music in the "vastly
superior and unrestrained" ogg format. The songwriting is going to be the
biggest factor, IMHO. Without kickin' tunes, nothing else matters.
Period. Get good songs, get them distributed, get popularity, get power,
establish ogg as the new lingua franca for the hip and rebellious music
community.
Peace,
=Pete
--
You can only run configure at the top level of the Ardour source tree.
You don't want to know why this is true. Don't try to work around it.
3:44 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] That whole mp3 vs. ogg vs. wma vs. yomamma thing
nobody taught ME all those big fancy words when *I* was an ado-adol-a -
teenager ;) ;)
seriously though. Thanks for this. Word from the street. I have a feeling
that this is some of the more valuable info we could get.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Houston Poetry Slam Team
www.houstonpoetryslam.com
NQuit Records
www.nquit.com
---------------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pete Bessman" <ninjadroid(a)ml1.net>
To: <linux-audio-user(a)music.columbia.edu>
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 12:10 PM
Subject: [linux-audio-user] That whole mp3 vs. ogg vs. wma vs. yomamma thing
The biggest internet music demographic, be it legal or
not, is adolescent
kids in suburbia. As an adolescent kid in suburbia with 3 adolescent
siblings, I can tell you with confidence from experience in my house and
with friends that .mp3 is the king of internet music formats by at least
an order of magnitude.
People in my realm get internet music from three types of locations, in
descending order of frequency:
1) P2P (mainly KaZaA)
2) mp3.com et al
3) Ripped CDs
In all cases, mp3 is the lingua franca, the de facto standard. Formats
such as wma and ra are considered laughable, they sound so much worse
until the file size reaches gargantuan proportions. The only people using
such formats are 'Tools of the Man', so to speak, and as you can see from
the above list, none of the real music listeners give two craps about
them. Posting in ogg isn't that big a deal, winamp can play them and I'm
pretty sure the internal player in KaZaA can also. These kids aren't as
hesitant as most grownups either, if you tell them that "you need to
download and run X to use superior format Y" they'll do it.
The problem, as I see it, is distribution. To take advantage of the big
daddy, P2P, people gotta know who you are and want your stuff in advance.
You can try using misleading filenames or info tags so that your stuff
gets accidentaly downloaded, but I personally just delete stuff like
that, so I wouldn't recommed it. You have a better chance of getting
heard by option 2, the music websites, if someone is doing genre
browsing, but then you're going to have to use mp3. As for CD ripping...
well, if that even becomes an option then we've already won IMHO.
In my perfect world, everyone would use ogg or flac or some other equally
libre format. In order to help realize that goal, we need to gain
musical clout so that the kids look up to us, and then choose to
distribute solely in formats that we endorse. We gotta have that clout
first, however, and we aren't gonna get that without compromising. A
good solution, in my pea brain, is to setup an account with something
like mp3.com and post a few _good_ songs (the songs have to be _good_ or
else we're dead in the water). If you get the kid's attention, they'll
check out your personal artist page, from which you can link to your
homepage where they can get "even more and newer" music in the "vastly
superior and unrestrained" ogg format. The songwriting is going to be the
biggest factor, IMHO. Without kickin' tunes, nothing else matters.
Period. Get good songs, get them distributed, get popularity, get power,
establish ogg as the new lingua franca for the hip and rebellious music
community.
Peace,
=Pete
--
You can only run configure at the top level of the Ardour source tree.
You don't want to know why this is true. Don't try to work around it.
12 Oct
12 Oct
8:49 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] That whole mp3 vs. ogg vs. wma vs. yomamma thing
fredagen den 10 oktober 2003 19.10 skrev Pete Bessman:
....
The problem, as I see it, is distribution. To take
advantage of the big
daddy, P2P, people gotta know who you are and want your stuff in advance.
You can try using misleading filenames or info tags so that your stuff
gets accidentaly downloaded, but I personally just delete stuff like
that, so I wouldn't recommed it. You have a better chance of getting
heard by option 2, the music websites, if someone is doing genre
browsing, but then you're going to have to use mp3. As for CD ripping...
well, if that even becomes an option then we've already won IMHO.
In my perfect world, everyone would use ogg or flac or some other equally
libre format. In order to help realize that goal, we need to gain
musical clout so that the kids look up to us, and then choose to
distribute solely in formats that we endorse. We gotta have that clout
first, however, and we aren't gonna get that without compromising. A
good solution, in my pea brain, is to setup an account with something
like mp3.com and post a few _good_ songs (the songs have to be _good_ or
else we're dead in the water). If you get the kid's attention, they'll
check out your personal artist page, from which you can link to your
homepage where they can get "even more and newer" music in the "vastly
superior and unrestrained" ogg format. The songwriting is going to be the
biggest factor, IMHO. Without kickin' tunes, nothing else matters.
Period. Get good songs, get them distributed, get popularity, get power,
establish ogg as the new lingua franca for the hip and rebellious music
community.
Well spoken! I think this is not only related to ogg, it's related to most of
the technology in the linux audio scene. We need to show people that it can
actually be used to create great stuff.
IMPO Linux audio isn't ready for the average Windows/Mac-user, but there is
actually great stuff out there, and I bet you can use it to produce something
that sounds great to listen to, without having to buy a lot of expensive
hardware. But how do we catch people's interest? Right now, I'm not sure
we're doing that (or perhaps I've been missing something. In that case, point
me in a good direction).
Personally, I went into linux audio with the intention to actually produce
something that sounds equally good compared to stuff I've made with other,
proprietary, apps, but I find myself getting more and more stuck into
programming, not creating music ("I just need this little feature, then I'm
satisfied, oh, and this little feature too... Gotta fix that... And why isn't
this working?....."). Since I'm fond of both types of activities, I'm not
complaining. I'm enjoying myself. A lot. But there's not a lot music
produced.
I think it would be worth lots to have a great showcase of things created with
only free software. To actually have a bunch of living proof that shows what
is actually possible to do, in the current state of linux audio software.
High quality stuff (I guess one could argue a lot about what high quality
stuff is, though). That speaks stronger to the "ordinary music lover" than a
list of technical features of programs and file formats. I wish that all the
audio apps would put up links to GOOD stuff actually produced using the apps.
Not just "this is a sound created by a sine wave, a resonance filter and
yaddayaddayadda" (even though I find such things cool, myself). Or perhaps
(horrible thought), there isn't any such stuff? Are we actually only using
the software to create "Absolute Sinus x" over and over again? Most of my
audio friends seem to think that. I would love to prove them wrong.
Is there such a showcase anywhere? I know there is good material out there
made with Ardour, etc, but is it enough to make a showcase of? I bet there
are a lot of warez-using hobbyist musicians that would love to switch, if
they only believed there actually is a free alternative. Who wouldn't mind to
get their hands a little dirty, if they only knew they could actually produce
something that sounds ok in the end. The more ppl we get interested in these
things, the better.
/Mathias
9:07 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] That whole mp3 vs. ogg vs. wma vs. yomamma thing
Mathias Lundgren wrote:
IMPO Linux audio isn't ready for the average Windows/Mac-user, but there is
IMO this will never be a possiblity. The average user is more interested
in the TV concept. In order for electronic music to progress these
people are not going to be the heart of the scene.
They will however be the dancers and the listeners that make it
worthwhile for us to produce music.
There is another school of thought which wants to use Linux apps for
professional multimedia. Depending on whether you are the boss or the
worker you may want to have extremely easy to use tools or you may want
to have tools which are not so easy to use therefore ensuring job security.
--
Patrick Shirkey - Boost Hardware Ltd.
Http://www.boosthardware.com
Http://www.djcj.org - The Linux Audio Users guide
========================================
Being on stage with the band in front of crowds shouting, "Get off! No!
We want normal music!", I think that was more like acting than anything
I've ever done.
Goldie, 8 Nov, 2002
The Scotsman
9:30 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] That whole mp3 vs. ogg vs. wma vs. yomamma thing
On Sun, 12 Oct 2003 12:32:41 +0200
Mathias Lundgren <mathias_lundgren(a)bredband.net> wrote:
I think it would be worth lots to have a great
showcase of things created with
only free software. To actually have a bunch of living proof that shows what
is actually possible to do, in the current state of linux audio software.
High quality stuff (I guess one could argue a lot about what high quality
stuff is, though). That speaks stronger to the "ordinary music lover" than a
list of technical features of programs and file formats. I wish that all the
audio apps would put up links to GOOD stuff actually produced using the apps.
Not just "this is a sound created by a sine wave, a resonance filter and
yaddayaddayadda" (even though I find such things cool, myself). Or perhaps
(horrible thought), there isn't any such stuff? Are we actually only using
the software to create "Absolute Sinus x" over and over again? Most of my
audio friends seem to think that. I would love to prove them wrong.
I have to agree. I have heard a few dozen tracks made with Linux software, and while they
certainly possess artistic and technical merit, I didn't hear anything that I wanted
to listen to a second time. IMHO, until we produce at least a few examples of music which
could be released by a major label, we simply will *not* be taken seriously.
The good news is that most of the tools are in place now, and I suspect that there are a
lot of people (like me) who are motivated to create commercially viable art with Linux,
but are in the process of discovering and exploring these tools right now. I think a lot
of new people are coming into the Linux audio community these days, some of them
undoubtedly with extensive studio recording and music production backgrounds, and it is my
hope that as they become familiar with the tools over the next year or so, we'll begin
to see a proliferation of high-quality Linux-made recordings. :)
|)
|)enji
1:16 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] That whole mp3 vs. ogg vs. wma vs. yomamma thing
Benjamin Flaming wrote:
I have to agree. I have heard a few dozen tracks made with Linux
software, and while they certainly possess artistic and technical
merit, I didn't hear anything that I wanted to listen to a second time.
You need to look around a bit more. Part of the fun is the journey to
get to the destination.
IMHO, until we produce at least a few examples of music
which could be
released by a major label, we simply will *not* be taken seriously.
How do you quantify this? If we are to take the recent discussions as a
vague example of the attitude people have towards open source sound or
linux audio, we are unlikely to ever hear that any major artist uses
tools created in/by this community.
The good news is that most of the tools are in place
now, and I
suspect that there are a lot of people (like me) who are motivated to
create commercially viable art with Linux, but are in the process of
discovering and exploring these tools right now. I think a lot of new
people are coming into the Linux audio community these days, some of
them undoubtedly with extensive studio recording and music production
backgrounds, and it is my hope that as they become familiar with the
tools over the next year or so, we'll begin to see a proliferation of
high-quality Linux-made recordings. :)
Maybe it is already happening. Just in areas of production most
listeners will never find out about, or are even interested in.
Have you noticed that nearly all the new movies with any computer geek
has the geek using a form of x windows? It ain't running on a M$ or mac
setup.
"The revolution will not be televised"....
--
Patrick Shirkey - Boost Hardware Ltd.
Http://www.boosthardware.com
Http://www.djcj.org - The Linux Audio Users guide
========================================
Being on stage with the band in front of crowds shouting, "Get off! No!
We want normal music!", I think that was more like acting than anything
I've ever done.
Goldie, 8 Nov, 2002
The Scotsman
2:08 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] That whole mp3 vs. ogg vs. wma vs. yomamma thing
You need to look around a bit more. Part of the fun is
the journey to
get to the destination.
true.
but personally i find that there is such an *insanely* large amount of music
around that i dont have time to even listen to the obvious stuff, let
alone spent time searching out obscure stuff that may vary from great to
truely awful :-)
IMHO, until we produce at least a few examples of
music which could be
released by a major label, we simply will *not* be taken seriously.
How do you quantify this? If we are to take the recent discussions as a
vague example of the attitude people have towards open source sound or
linux audio, we are unlikely to ever hear that any major artist uses
tools created in/by this community. Have you noticed that nearly all the new movies with
any computer geek
has the geek using a form of x windows? It ain't running on a M$ or mac
setup.
I always enjoy that!
although the Enterprise 'computer', despite looking like the Ion wm,
is really a Director app i'm told :-)
cheers
--
Tim Orford
3:56 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] That whole mp3 vs. ogg vs. wma vs. yomamma thing
What, exactly, do you mean by music that could be released by a major
label? That really has nothing to do with the tools used to record,
mix, and master the music. It has to do with the music and the
performers. It also has to do with how the song was mixed and
mastered. The tools are available in Linux to do this. I'm waiting for
Ron Parker to wade in on this subject since he is running a working
studio. Check out http://myweb.cableone.net/eviltwin69/gmc2.ogg. This
is sort of a blues tune. Bruce Iglauer at Alligator Records (largest
blues label in the world) liked it. I don't think he really cared what
it was recorded, mixed, or mastered on. Unfortunately, as with all
bands, that one folded due to it's own internal problems. If you want
to find some music done with Linux you need to check out Dave Phillips'
Linux Sound and MIDI page - http://linux-sound.org/. Specifically the
Linux Music On-line section.
Jan
On Sun, 2003-10-12 at 10:15, Tim Orford wrote:
dont discount the large percentage of big budget releases that are
made not by the artist but by a producer in combination with an
engineer. There are many good producers and engineers who are fully
aware of what tools are available irrespective of what other people
use. Some of them will use linux when the tools do the job they require.
Most linux tools are not designed to be used in a commercial enviroment
where you are paying $1000/day for a studio. Some of them are not
far off tho.
personally it irks me that pros are no longer catered for by
commercial software as the user base is too small for it to be
profitable. Instead they are stuck with crap like Protools.
You need to
look around a bit more. Part of the fun is the journey to
get to the destination.
true.
but personally i find that there is such an *insanely* large amount of music
around that i dont have time to even listen to the obvious stuff, let
alone spent time searching out obscure stuff that may vary from great to
truely awful :-)
IMHO, until we produce at least a few examples of
music which could be
released by a major label, we simply will *not* be taken seriously.
How do you quantify this? If we are to take the recent discussions as a
vague example of the attitude people have towards open source sound or
linux audio, we are unlikely to ever hear that any major artist uses
tools created in/by this community. Have you noticed that nearly all the new movies
with any computer geek
has the geek using a form of x windows? It ain't running on a M$ or mac
setup.
I always enjoy that!
although the Enterprise 'computer', despite looking like the Ion wm,
is really a Director app i'm told :-)
cheers
--
Tim Orford
4:18 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] That whole mp3 vs. ogg vs. wma vs. yomamma thing
On Sun, 2003-10-12 at 10:17, Jan Depner wrote:
What, exactly, do you mean by music that could be
released by a major
label? That really has nothing to do with the tools used to record,
mix, and master the music. It has to do with the music and the
performers. It also has to do with how the song was mixed and
mastered. The tools are available in Linux to do this. I'm waiting for
Ron Parker to wade in on this subject since he is running a working
studio. Check out http://myweb.cableone.net/eviltwin69/gmc2.ogg. This
is sort of a blues tune. Bruce Iglauer at Alligator Records (largest
blues label in the world) liked it. I don't think he really cared what
it was recorded, mixed, or mastered on. Unfortunately, as with all
bands, that one folded due to it's own internal problems. If you want
to find some music done with Linux you need to check out Dave Phillips'
Linux Sound and MIDI page - http://linux-sound.org/. Specifically the
Linux Music On-line section.
Jan
Jan,
I like the tune. Good job, and that counts whether this was done on
Linux or not.
Cheers,
Mark
4:40 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] That whole mp3 vs. ogg vs. wma vs. yomamma thing
Thanks Mark. That one is a bizarre hybrid. Recorded on an Alesis ADAT
system, mixed on some type of hardware mixer (not sure exactly what),
and mastered in Linux using JAMin. The Fuzzy Dice demo stuff
(http://myweb.cableone.net/eviltwin69/fuzzy.html) was all Linux -
Ardour, JAMin, Audacity (trim, fade in/out, and ogg encoding). That was
done with a much earlier version of Ardour. The latest (0.9beta5) is
pretty darn awesome. I can't wait till Paul starts selling the manual.
I definitely want one!
Jan
On Sun, 2003-10-12 at 13:02, Mark Knecht wrote:
On Sun, 2003-10-12 at 10:17, Jan Depner wrote:
What, exactly, do you mean by music that could be
released by a major
label? That really has nothing to do with the tools used to record,
mix, and master the music. It has to do with the music and the
performers. It also has to do with how the song was mixed and
mastered. The tools are available in Linux to do this. I'm waiting for
Ron Parker to wade in on this subject since he is running a working
studio. Check out http://myweb.cableone.net/eviltwin69/gmc2.ogg. This
is sort of a blues tune. Bruce Iglauer at Alligator Records (largest
blues label in the world) liked it. I don't think he really cared what
it was recorded, mixed, or mastered on. Unfortunately, as with all
bands, that one folded due to it's own internal problems. If you want
to find some music done with Linux you need to check out Dave Phillips'
Linux Sound and MIDI page - http://linux-sound.org/. Specifically the
Linux Music On-line section.
Jan
Jan,
I like the tune. Good job, and that counts whether this was done on
Linux or not.
Cheers,
Mark
4:28 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] That whole mp3 vs. ogg vs. wma vs. yomamma thing
Uffda. Sorry about that. It was 6:30 in the morning, and I hadn't been to bed yet
;)
Mostly, I'm just frustrated by the examples provided on the web sites for open-source
synths and drum machine apps. I should have either kept my mouth shut, though, or written
a less nebulous explanation of what I'm hoping for.
Sorry.
|)
|)enji
On 12 Oct 2003 12:17:29 -0500
Jan Depner <eviltwin69(a)cableone.net> wrote:
What, exactly, do you mean by music that could be
released by a major
label? That really has nothing to do with the tools used to record,
mix, and master the music. It has to do with the music and the
performers. It also has to do with how the song was mixed and
mastered. The tools are available in Linux to do this. I'm waiting for
Ron Parker to wade in on this subject since he is running a working
studio. Check out http://myweb.cableone.net/eviltwin69/gmc2.ogg. This
is sort of a blues tune. Bruce Iglauer at Alligator Records (largest
blues label in the world) liked it. I don't think he really cared what
it was recorded, mixed, or mastered on. Unfortunately, as with all
bands, that one folded due to it's own internal problems. If you want
to find some music done with Linux you need to check out Dave Phillips'
Linux Sound and MIDI page - http://linux-sound.org/. Specifically the
Linux Music On-line section.
Jan
4:52 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] That whole mp3 vs. ogg vs. wma vs. yomamma thing
0630 huh. You must have been playing a gig. I got home at 0430 this
morning. I know what you mean as far as drum machine apps are
concerned. I haven't found one yet that I'm really all that happy
with. If you find a good one let us know. No need to apologize here.
The linux audio lists - audio user, alsa, jack, ardour, jamin, etc are
about the most civilized mailing lists I've ever seen. If you really
want to get seriously flamed go post anything on prosoundweb. Those
guys are brutal ;-) The Mixerman chronicles are well worth the read
though if you can stand all of your laugh muscles getting sore.
Jan
On Sun, 2003-10-12 at 13:15, Benjamin Flaming wrote:
Uffda. Sorry about that. It was 6:30 in the morning,
and I hadn't been to bed yet ;)
Mostly, I'm just frustrated by the examples provided on the web sites for open-source
synths and drum machine apps. I should have either kept my mouth shut, though, or written
a less nebulous explanation of what I'm hoping for.
Sorry.
|)
|)enji
On 12 Oct 2003 12:17:29 -0500
Jan Depner <eviltwin69(a)cableone.net> wrote:
> What, exactly, do you mean by music that could be released by a major
> label? That really has nothing to do with the tools used to record,
> mix, and master the music. It has to do with the music and the
> performers. It also has to do with how the song was mixed and
> mastered. The tools are available in Linux to do this. I'm waiting for
> Ron Parker to wade in on this subject since he is running a working
> studio. Check out http://myweb.cableone.net/eviltwin69/gmc2.ogg. This
> is sort of a blues tune. Bruce Iglauer at Alligator Records (largest
> blues label in the world) liked it. I don't think he really cared what
> it was recorded, mixed, or mastered on. Unfortunately, as with all
> bands, that one folded due to it's own internal problems. If you want
> to find some music done with Linux you need to check out Dave Phillips'
> Linux Sound and MIDI page - http://linux-sound.org/. Specifically the
> Linux Music On-line section.
>
> Jan
5:06 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] That whole mp3 vs. ogg vs. wma vs. yomamma thing
On Sun, Oct 12, 2003 at 12:17:29PM -0500, Jan Depner wrote:
What, exactly, do you mean by music that could be
released by a major
label? That really has nothing to do with the tools used to record,
mix, and master the music. It has to do with the music and the
performers. It also has to do with how the song was mixed and
mastered. The tools are available in Linux to do this. I'm waiting for
Ron Parker to wade in on this subject since he is running a working
studio. Check out http://myweb.cableone.net/eviltwin69/gmc2.ogg. This
is sort of a blues tune. Bruce Iglauer at Alligator Records (largest
blues label in the world) liked it. I don't think he really cared what
[...]
sorry for any confusion. Just to clarify:
when i refer to "major labels" (which i didnt), i mean
Universal, Warners, Sony, and BMG.
Ron is a shining example to us all. Personally i make
european pop music which requires a lot more from your
system than just capturing, editing, and playing back audio
through a desk + outboard. European music is much more electronic
than US stuff. It makes me laugh that people in the US even have
an 'electronica' category.
With the exception of vocals, there are no "performances"
in the conventional sense. Most of the sounds are generated
on the machine and need to be kept live to be able to
make last minute changes. Personally I couldnt even manage without a
large amount of
hardware dsp. This is a worst case scenario of course,
but if you are being paid you need to be able to cope with that.
Its quite a difficult requirement to meet, and i think its
an amazing testament to Free Software development that we can even
think of getting there. I'm talking about the equivalent of replacing
a 96 ch ssl with everything that goes with it, which is the
level that i infer when people talk about "major releases".
However that is not to say that you cant do great stuff with very
little equipment, its just that when the budget is big you
tend to have lots of equipment at your disposal, for good or ill.
But this is all my own personal perspective and i dont neccesarily
want to impose it on anyone else. Just goes to show that there
is a v diverse range of people here i guess :-)
cheers
--
Tim Orford
5:59 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] That whole mp3 vs. ogg vs. wma vs. yomamma thing
On Sun, 2003-10-12 at 13:30, Tim Orford wrote:
Ron is a shining example to us all. Personally i make
european pop music which requires a lot more from your
system than just capturing, editing, and playing back audio
through a desk + outboard. European music is much more electronic
than US stuff. It makes me laugh that people in the US even have
an 'electronica' category.
Yeah, I can see that. I've never been all that into the electronica
stuff. I'm more of the grab your axe (of choice) and play kind of guy.
Not that I don't appreciate the electronic stuff (when it's good).
With the exception of vocals, there are no
"performances"
in the conventional sense.
I have to disagree with that. The way you put together what you
hear/sample; that is, your vision of what you're trying to create *is* a
performance. It may take longer because you do it in pieces but it is
no less relevant than BB King playing a guitar. What I was saying was
that if you took someone with the best equipment in the world and no
musical vision (that would be me trying to make electronica music ;-)
you'd get crap (GIGO). Take someone who knows what they're doing, give
them Linux tools and they'll create something good. My point is that it
isn't the tools that make the "major label" quality it's the
artist/engineer.
Jan
13 Oct
13 Oct
6:29 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] That whole mp3 vs. ogg vs. wma vs. yomamma thing
Tim Orford wrote:
when i refer to "major labels" (which i
didnt), i mean
Universal, Warners, Sony, and BMG
sorry, but those labels hardly ever release music that's worth listening...
I'd rather tzadik, mego, Empreigntes Digitales, staalplaat etc... And with
those labels, anything can, in fact, happen...
--
_
__ __ (_)___ Michal Seta
/ \/ \ _/^ _|
/ V |_ \ @creazone.32k.org
(___/V\___|_|___/
http://www.[creazone]|[noonereceiving].32k.org
7:50 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] That whole mp3 vs. ogg vs. wma vs. yomamma thing
Absolutely, these days the Record industry is more screwed than ever
before in its history, you simply cannot stand a chance of getting signed
unless you're a boy band, or a girl band, basically fake rnb made by
all-singing, all-dancing "fame" type 16 year old kids. i swear to god, if
you're over 16 years old these days you simply won't be signed. A bigger
reason that the industry going under is the focus on the teeny bopper
audience at the expense of any other. There happens to be a huge audience
for creative music here even in the US, but the problem is that the
audiences go to see the established names, many of whom are pushing 60-70
and ignore young, or unknown artists, so those of us with tons of talent
who do creative music simply don't exist to most people, but if you hear
my ripping jazz guitar licks I think you'll see there's just tons and tons
of talented creative musicians who simply can't get gigs or recording
because they're not a "name", but this has nothing to do with the quality
of the music, its all about a small crowd of entertainers and business
people having highjacked our whole culture, and as a creative artist I see
Linux as a means of rebellion, allowing me to make more unique, original
music, not based on the same software and patches that everyone else uses
to make their same-y music.
On Mon, 13 Oct 2003, Michal Seta wrote:
Tim Orford wrote:
when i refer to "major labels" (which i
didnt), i mean
Universal, Warners, Sony, and BMG
sorry, but those labels hardly ever release music that's worth listening...
I'd rather tzadik, mego, Empreigntes Digitales, staalplaat etc... And with
those labels, anything can, in fact, happen...
--
_
__ __ (_)___ Michal Seta
/ \/ \ _/^ _|
/ V |_ \ @creazone.32k.org
(___/V\___|_|___/
http://www.[creazone]|[noonereceiving].32k.org
10:28 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] That whole mp3 vs. ogg vs. wma vs. yomamma thing
On Mon, 2003-10-13 at 17:34, Brian Redfern wrote:
Absolutely, these days the Record industry is more
screwed than ever
before in its history, you simply cannot stand a chance of getting signed
unless you're a boy band, or a girl band, basically fake rnb made by
all-singing, all-dancing "fame" type 16 year old kids. i swear to god, if
you're over 16 years old these days you simply won't be signed. A bigger
Well, some friends of mine just signed to Palm. There is still hope of
talented, hardworking bands getting signed. Besides, there are always
the minor labels. Thank god for K Records, Kindercore, and Barsuk
Records.
Taybin
11:59 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] That whole mp3 vs. ogg vs. wma vs. yomamma thing
On Mon, Oct 13, 2003 at 08:14:05PM -0400, Taybin Rutkin wrote:
Well, some friends of mine just signed to Palm. There
is still hope of
talented, hardworking bands getting signed. Besides, there are always
the minor labels. Thank god for K Records, Kindercore, and Barsuk
Records.
The minor labels are probably much better for you in the long haul
as an artist. Being on a major doesn't guarantee you anything, in
fact if you're *lucky* you will merely fail to make any money.
Some acquaintances of mine put out two records on RCA, one in '96
and one in '98, and despite a great live show, some good
reviews and some "modern rock" airplay here and there, they got no
promotional backup - e.g. they'd find out their song had been played
regularly on a radio station in an area they could have easily travelled
to & performed, but they'd be told about this long *after* the song had
been cycled out of airplay. The general impression was that nobody
at the label was paying attention.
And they got off pretty easy, they just got dropped after
the second album failed to do much of anything.
For a real horror story read those prosoundweb "mixerman diaries"
that somebody posted a day or two ago. So horrible it's almost funny.
It could be subtitled "How to fail in the record industry by spending
2 million dollars on total shit."
- PW
--
Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
Look! Up in the sky! It's SILICO PUMA FROM SWEDEN!
(random hero from isometric.spaceninja.com)
14 Oct
14 Oct
2:51 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] That whole mp3 vs. ogg vs. wma vs. yomamma thing
--- Paul Winkler <pw_lists(a)slinkp.com> wrote:
On Mon, Oct 13, 2003 at 08:14:05PM -0400, Taybin
Rutkin wrote:
For me, the reality of running a sound business hurts
like a hammer slapped upside the head. It's hard to
design and execute any business plan. All I really
want to do is arrange and perform music with my
friends.
I think if all our bands had a Col. Parker (of Elvis
fame) in our camps, we'd never miss the opportunity to
tour into a market where our material is getting radio
play. I don't think the management that comes with a
label contract is the same thing you get from a
personal band manager.
What little I observe of KISS tells me that Gene
Simmons is a hell of a businessman. The guy breeds
success. In fact, it's easy to imagine that he breeds
alot.
My studio business partner experienced some success
while signed to an independent lable. I saw BMI
royalty checks of up to $40,000.00 USD from S. Afrika
to Finland and everywhere inbetween. There were no
mechanical royalties. When they tossed the indie label
owner into prison for embezzlement they seized an
estate that included; large home, sports cars, SSL
mixers, etc, etc. All of it purchased from revenues of
their product. What happened to the seized estate? We
don't know and it's unlikely we ever will.
Related to that deal were publishing revenues
originally owned by Motown but transfered to the major
that purchased them. Several years went by without
anyone even knowing that a publishing royalty existed.
It was discovered by accident during the embezzlment
investigations. Even after discovery it took a couple
years to collect. The label, when asked why the
publishing royalty hadn't been delivered, replied, "we
didn't have your mailing address."
I think bands need talented, trustworthy and motivated
business persons if they want to make money. But my
ultimate point is, I'm gonna go play the drums!
ron
Well, some friends of mine just signed to Palm.
There is still hope of
talented, hardworking bands getting signed.
Besides, there are always
the minor labels. Thank god for K Records,
Kindercore, and Barsuk
Records.
The minor labels are probably much better for you in
the long haul
as an artist. Being on a major doesn't guarantee you
anything, in
fact if you're *lucky* you will merely fail to make
any money. Some acquaintances of mine put out two records on
RCA, one in '96
and one in '98, and despite a great live show, some
good
reviews and some "modern rock" airplay here and
there, they got no
promotional backup - e.g. they'd find out their song
had been played
regularly on a radio station in an area they could
have easily travelled
to & performed, but they'd be told about this long
*after* the song had
been cycled out of airplay. The general impression
was that nobody
at the label was paying attention.
And they got off pretty easy, they just got dropped
after
the second album failed to do much of anything.
For a real horror story read those prosoundweb
"mixerman diaries"
that somebody posted a day or two ago. So horrible
it's almost funny.
It could be subtitled "How to fail in the record
industry by spending
2 million dollars on total shit."
- PW
--
Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
Look! Up in the sky! It's SILICO PUMA FROM SWEDEN!
(random hero from isometric.spaceninja.com)
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com
12:50 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] That whole mp3 vs. ogg vs. wma vs. yomamma thing
sorry, but those labels hardly ever release music
that's worth
listening...
Ok, I wasn't going to say anything, but now I can't help it :-)
Thank you for saying that. Please understand that I am a hobbyist
not a career musician, so making money at music is not as big a deal
for me as it may be for some. At some point I made a decision to not
pursue a career in the music industry b/c the industry so often seems
to take away much of the art (just like every other industry). So I
pursued another career that hopefully supports my music hobby.
Unfortunately, I often find myself distracted at my day job by
music-related diversions (as I am now).
Anyway, my point is, so much of what I do musically is an attempt to
not conform totally to the mass-produced norm. For example, a couple
of years ago I needed a Strat-style guitar. The last thing I wanted
to do was buy a Strat because *everybody* has a Strat. So I bought a
customized G&L, which you might argue is the same thing, but really,
it's not. It's just different enough to make a personal statement.
For me Linux is the same way. My DAW has the oppurtunity to be *my
DAW*, not somebody (or everybody) else's Protools or Cakewalk. And
that applies both sonically and visually. As a producer (and I use
the term very loosely) that personalization factor is very important
to me.
It's not so much about non-conformity as it is about creativity.
There's a point where the commercial offerings stop creating because
they have something that's functional and it costs so much with such
high risk to be creative that they are not willing to go there. The
open source people don't have so much on the line and are willing to
exercise their creativity a lot more. If it flops, we just throw it
away and work on something else. So you get all the cool synth
packages that have come out and really unique things like Jack
So it might not ever be palatable to the masses because it's too
innovative. It's the same reason why Creed will always sell more
tickets than Dream Theater, but I will always listen to DT more than
I will Creed. Creativity vs. following trends. Have I totally
missed the point?
OTOH, the tools, like the music needs to be commercially viable, at
least for those who choose to make their living off of it. And I
think it could be and someday will be. It would be a shame for all
this cool innovation to only be accessible to programmers --
especially since many of the developers are going out of their way to
make it accessible to non-programmers.
I'll stop rambling now.
Greg
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com
1:09 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] (non)conformity, was Re: That whole mp3 vs. ogg vs. wma vs. yomamma thing
On Tue, Oct 14, 2003 at 07:34:14AM -0700, Greg Reddin wrote:
Anyway, my point is, so much of what I do musically is
an attempt to
not conform totally to the mass-produced norm. For example, a couple
of years ago I needed a Strat-style guitar. The last thing I wanted
to do was buy a Strat because *everybody* has a Strat. So I bought a
customized G&L, which you might argue is the same thing, but really,
it's not.
heheh, I am currently taking this to one of its logical conclusions:
http://www.slinkp.com/bass/custom_bass
it's fun!
--
Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
Look! Up in the sky! It's THE LIPSTICK!
(random hero from isometric.spaceninja.com)
2:11 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] (non)conformity, was Re: That whole mp3 vs. ogg vs. wma vs. yomamma thing
heheh, I am currently taking this to one of its
logical
conclusions:
http://www.slinkp.com/bass/custom_bass
it's fun!
Man, the similarities between those images and my mental image of the
guitar I wanted are striking. The G&L I ended up with has the
Blueburst finish (standard color of the Commanche, but on a Legacy)
with chrome hardware. I went with a maple neck though I almost got
ebony and sometimes wish I had.
I'm currently thinking about modding my Sovtek amp head into a combo
instead of buying "everybody else's Fender tube amp" :-)
Greg
--
Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
Look! Up in the sky! It's THE LIPSTICK!
(random hero from isometric.spaceninja.com)
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com
7:40 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] (non)conformity, was Re: That whole mp3 vs. ogg vs. wma vs. yomamma thing
heheh - you're late to the dance Paul -
http://myweb.cableone.net/eviltwin69/two_guitars.jpg
The one on the left I made in 1989 the one on the right was made in 1999
with four more in between. All hand made, neck-thru, oil and wax
finish. They''re getting a little worn but I play them both in bands.
I would suggest you get Melvyn Hiscock's book - Make Your Own Electric
Guitar. Check out http://www.stewmac.com they have pretty much anything
you need. Do the inlay yourself - it's a lot easier than it looks (you
do need a Dremel router though). There's a great book on it at Stew
Mac. Building a guitar is about as rewarding an experience as you can
have - have fun.
Jan
On Tue, 2003-10-14 at 09:47, Paul Winkler wrote:
On Tue, Oct 14, 2003 at 07:34:14AM -0700, Greg Reddin
wrote:
Anyway, my point is, so much of what I do
musically is an attempt to
not conform totally to the mass-produced norm. For example, a couple
of years ago I needed a Strat-style guitar. The last thing I wanted
to do was buy a Strat because *everybody* has a Strat. So I bought a
customized G&L, which you might argue is the same thing, but really,
it's not.
heheh, I am currently taking this to one of its logical conclusions:
http://www.slinkp.com/bass/custom_bass
it's fun!
--
Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
Look! Up in the sky! It's THE LIPSTICK!
(random hero from isometric.spaceninja.com)
15 Oct
15 Oct
2:27 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] (non)conformity, was Re: That whole mp3 vs. ogg vs. wma vs. yomamma thing
On Tue, Oct 14, 2003 at 04:01:16PM -0500, Jan Depner wrote:
heheh - you're late to the dance Paul -
http://myweb.cableone.net/eviltwin69/two_guitars.jpg
The one on the left I made in 1989 the one on the right was made in 1999
with four more in between. All hand made, neck-thru, oil and wax
finish. They''re getting a little worn but I play them both in bands.
hey, those are nice!
but I'm not that ambitious with woodworking - I've built enough things
to know that I just can't handle the fine work. I can do functional, but
I can't do smooth and pretty. So I'm getting other people to do that
stuff - I'm just designing it and I might end up wiring my own
preamp / active EQ.
--
Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
Look! Up in the sky! It's ULTRA TORCH OF SOULS!
(random hero from isometric.spaceninja.com)
8:26 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] (non)conformity, was Re: That whole mp3 vs. ogg vs. wma vs. yomamma thing
You ought to take a look at that book. It just looks hard, it's really
pretty easy. The only tool that's a must is a 6" jointer. Other tools
- clamps, router, dremel router, surform, drill, sander, jig saw,
straight edge. Nice to have - band saw, table saw or radial arm saw.
Absolute must - tons of sandpaper and elbow grease.
Jan
On Tue, 2003-10-14 at 23:05, Paul Winkler wrote:
On Tue, Oct 14, 2003 at 04:01:16PM -0500, Jan Depner
wrote:
heheh - you're late to the dance Paul -
http://myweb.cableone.net/eviltwin69/two_guitars.jpg
The one on the left I made in 1989 the one on the right was made in 1999
with four more in between. All hand made, neck-thru, oil and wax
finish. They''re getting a little worn but I play them both in bands.
hey, those are nice!
but I'm not that ambitious with woodworking - I've built enough things
to know that I just can't handle the fine work. I can do functional, but
I can't do smooth and pretty. So I'm getting other people to do that
stuff - I'm just designing it and I might end up wiring my own
preamp / active EQ.
--
Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
Look! Up in the sky! It's ULTRA TORCH OF SOULS!
(random hero from isometric.spaceninja.com)
9:11 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] (non)conformity, was Re: That whole mp3 vs.ogg vs. wma vs. yomamma thing
Jan,
I've already happily wasted probably 2 hours going through that web site
and dreaming about doing this. It looks like great fun, but beyond my
abilities...
I was sort of surprised that this is not really an inexpensive way to get
an instrument put together, compared to buying one. I always sort of assume
that doing it yourself should not be terribly expensive, but in this case
that cost of the parts seems like it could be more expensive. Worth it if
you know how it's going to turn out. Very little resale value for
instruments like this. (I think...)
Also, to get a Strat body shape, or a Tele body shape, don't you really
need to have the power tools to cut the body wood? Or maybe I could take it
somewhere and pay someone to do that?
I know nothing about this sort of stuff.
With all that in mind, how does one who's never done anything like this
take the leap? What's the chance of getting an instrument that stacks up to
the production stuff? I'd do it if I thought I could do something
approaching the quality of an Alembic.
Cheers,
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: linux-audio-user-admin(a)music.columbia.edu
[mailto:linux-audio-user-admin@music.columbia.edu]On Behalf Of Jan
Depner
Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 2:48 PM
To: Audio-User
Subject: Re: [linux-audio-user] (non)conformity, was Re: That whole mp3
vs.ogg vs. wma vs. yomamma thing
You ought to take a look at that book. It just looks hard, it's really
pretty easy. The only tool that's a must is a 6" jointer. Other tools
- clamps, router, dremel router, surform, drill, sander, jig saw,
straight edge. Nice to have - band saw, table saw or radial arm saw.
Absolute must - tons of sandpaper and elbow grease.
Jan
On Tue, 2003-10-14 at 23:05, Paul Winkler wrote:
On Tue, Oct 14, 2003 at 04:01:16PM -0500, Jan
Depner wrote:
> heheh - you're late to the dance Paul -
> http://myweb.cableone.net/eviltwin69/two_guitars.jpg
>
> The one on the left I made in 1989 the one on the right was
made in 1999
> with four more in between. All hand made,
neck-thru, oil and wax
> finish. They''re getting a little worn but I play them both
in
bands.
hey, those are nice!
but I'm not that ambitious with woodworking - I've built enough things
to know that I just can't handle the fine work. I can do
functional, but
I can't do smooth and pretty. So I'm
getting other people to do that
stuff - I'm just designing it and I might end up wiring my own
preamp / active EQ.
--
Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
Look! Up in the sky! It's ULTRA TORCH OF SOULS!
(random hero from isometric.spaceninja.com)
16 Oct
16 Oct
2:33 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] (non)conformity, was Re: That whole mp3 vs.ogg vs. wma vs. yomamma thing
On Wed, Oct 15, 2003 at 03:54:31PM -0700, Mark Knecht wrote:
With all that in mind, how does one who's never
done anything like this
take the leap? What's the chance of getting an instrument that stacks up to
the production stuff? I'd do it if I thought I could do something
approaching the quality of an Alembic.
probably not likely on the first go-round.
However, assembling a bolt-on guitar from ready-made parts is within
the abilities of anybody who's built a PC :-)
Lots of sources, e.g. http://www.warmoth.com
But yes, DIY guitars are not particularly cheap. Economy of scale is the
big deal. Consider that a custom hand-made bass from a reputable builder
could easily cost you $3000 to $5000. I'm trying to keep
my project around $1300 and it's going to be tricky.
--
Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
Look! Up in the sky! It's UGLY-FEMUR HATTER!
(random hero from isometric.spaceninja.com)
15 Oct
15 Oct
9:14 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] (non)conformity, was Re: That whole mp3 vs. ogg vs. wma vs. yomamma thing
On Wed, Oct 15, 2003 at 04:47:35PM -0500, Jan Depner wrote:
You ought to take a look at that book. It just looks
hard, it's really
pretty easy. The only tool that's a must is a 6" jointer. Other tools
- clamps, router, dremel router, surform, drill, sander, jig saw,
straight edge. Nice to have - band saw, table saw or radial arm saw.
Absolute must - tons of sandpaper and elbow grease.
You forgot the most important: lots of time and patience.
I am short on both these days. If I do it all myself it won't be done for years.
I'd like to be playing this bass in early 2004 :-)
--
Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
Look! Up in the sky! It's THE DEVIANT DEPRESSION!
(random hero from isometric.spaceninja.com)
14 Oct
14 Oct
3:18 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] That whole mp3 vs. ogg vs. wma vs. yomamma thing
Anyway, my point is, so much of what I do musically is an attempt to
not conform totally to the mass-produced norm. For example, a couple
of years ago I needed a Strat-style guitar. The last thing I wanted
to do was buy a Strat because *everybody* has a Strat. So I bought a
customized G&L, which you might argue is the same thing, but really,
it's not. It's just different enough to make a personal statement.
For me Linux is the same way. My DAW has the oppurtunity to be *my
DAW*, not somebody (or everybody) else's Protools or Cakewalk. And
that applies both sonically and visually. As a producer (and I use
the term very loosely) that personalization factor is very important
to me.
My apartment in San Jose was burglarized in 1980. I lost a 1979 Gibson RD
Artist (not a great guitar) and a 1937 Gibson Super 400. (Which was an
immensely great guitar.) I had the same issues about buying a Strat, so I
went with a 1980 or 81 G&L F-100 Series II and have never looked back. This
one is not mine, but looks identical.
http://www.guitarsbyleo.com/PICS/F100/GGF10081.JPG
<SNIP>
I'll stop rambling now.
Greg
I enjoyed the ramble!
- Mark
5:59 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] That whole mp3 vs. ogg vs. wma vs. yomamma thing
I went with a 1980 or 81 G&L F-100 Series II and
have never looked
back. This
one is not mine, but looks identical.
http://www.guitarsbyleo.com/PICS/F100/GGF10081.JPG
That is a very nice-looking guitar. Made back in G&L's heyday when
Leo was still with us too. I suspect that my guitar will not age
quite as well as that one, but I'm very happy with it.
Greg
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The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
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7:32 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] That whole mp3 vs. ogg vs. wma vs. yomamma thing
That is a very nice-looking guitar. Made back in G&L's heyday when
Leo was still with us too. I suspect that my guitar will not age
quite as well as that one, but I'm very happy with it.
Greg
Mine's actually in pretty good shape, other than a single ding in the
varnish it got years ago. It's sort of nice to know that you bought the
guitar early enough in the companies history that Leo might have been around
watching it get made.
About 2 years ago I took it to a professional to have the frets looked after
and to get it setup and intonated. The guitar plays wonderfully. It is a G&L
though, so it certainly has it's own tone. Not a Strat, but in the same
area. It can scream when it needs too.
Today I pick up a Les Paul and it feels so strange. I played an SG the other
day that I really liked. I haven't tried too many of the new brands. I still
intend to get an old Rickenbacker one of these days, like George played, and
some day an Alembic bass probably. Lots of great instruments out there.
Cheers,
Mark
15 Oct
15 Oct
noon
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Guitars (WAS: That whole mp3 vs. ogg vs. wma vs. yomamma thing)
I still
intend to get an old Rickenbacker one of these days, like George
played,
Yes, a Ric will be my next guitar :-)
Greg
__________________________________
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The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com
1:10 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] That whole mp3 vs. ogg vs. wma vs. yomamma thing
Greg Reddin wrote:
Have I totally
missed the point?
not at all. You said what I was too lazy to elaborate about :)
OTOH, the tools, like the music needs to be commercially viable, at
least for those who choose to make their living off of it. And I
think it could be and someday will be. It would be a shame for all
this cool innovation to only be accessible to programmers --
especially since many of the developers are going out of their way to
make it accessible to non-programmers.
I will risk a little exaggeration but I think I could relate the people who
now use the tools available in linux (at whatever degree of useability they
are) to those who poioneered the analog production and music making
techniques in the 20's 30's 40's 50's. Look how long it took from the
first
piece of 'electroacoustic/acousmatic' music piece in the 30's (Pierre Henry
et Pierre Shaeffer) to use of sampling (as the only sound source) in the pop
music (70's?) and even now there are no artists that come to mind (among the
most selling ones) who do it nearly as creatively as those 2 guys did in the
30's (save, perhaps, for some of the more 'experimental' pieces of Aphex
Twins). I can see, 40 years from now, linux as _the_ platform for sound
recording/production/performance... or rather some derivative...
--
_
__ __ (_)___ Michal Seta
/ \/ \ _/^ _|
/ V |_ \ @creazone.32k.org
(___/V\___|_|___/
http://www.[creazone]|[noonereceiving].32k.org
13 Oct
13 Oct
11:58 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] That whole mp3 vs. ogg vs. wma vs. yomamma thing
Tim Orford <tim(a)orford.org> wrote:
Ron is a shining example to us all. Personally i make
european pop music which requires a lot more from your
system than just capturing, editing, and playing back audio
through a desk + outboard. European music is much more electronic
than US stuff. It makes me laugh that people in the US even have
an 'electronica' category.
It's just that here most "real" electronica is constrained to academia or
to
experimental/artsy categories ...None of which makes any money. {Actually, that
whole conceptual genre has fallen into real disfavor recently.}
We have that whole rock/blues and jazz legacy to deal with as well {as opposed
to the watered down, imitative stuff that comes from that side of the pond.} The
American public has come to value things like depth and quality and a certain
"earthiness" that you just don't get with "Eurodisco."
{Tho' you really couldn't tell it by looking at our charts. ... A few minutes
on the streets or in some of our backwoods clubs would convince you.}
With the exception of vocals, there are no
"performances"
in the conventional sense. Most of the sounds are generated
on the machine and need to be kept live to be able to
make last minute changes. Personally I couldnt even manage without a
14 Oct
14 Oct
12:29 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] That whole mp3 vs. ogg vs. wma vs. yomamma thing
On Mon, 2003-10-13 at 18:40, Rick Taylor wrote:
It's just that here most "real"
electronica is constrained to academia or to
experimental/artsy categories ...None of which makes any money. {Actually, that
whole conceptual genre has fallen into real disfavor recently.}
Well, amongst our happy family of Linux Audio Users right here on this
list we have at least one very accomplished Electronica composer by the
name of Natasha Barrett. I purchased one of her CDs (yes, it was
actually available here in the US) and really dig it. I've listened to
it at least a dozen times in the last 2 weeks. (Be forwarned, it is
abstract in nature, but deliciously so...)
Natasha - please forgive me if I should not refer to your work as
'Electronica'. To my mind (and ear) it goes in that basic area, but I
probably don't have the education to try and classify it any further.
All I'll say is that at least this composer's work has not fallen into
disfavor with me.
We have that whole rock/blues and jazz legacy to deal with as well {as opposed
to the watered down, imitative stuff that comes from that side of the pond.} The
American public has come to value things like depth and quality and a certain
"earthiness" that you just don't get with "Eurodisco."
This statement in a week when the Top 10, for the first time in History,
was completely comprised of all Black artists. Yes, our charts, and
apparently our brethren, have gone a different direction.
{Tho' you really couldn't tell it by looking at our charts. ... A few minutes
on the streets or in some of our backwoods clubs would convince you.}
1:27 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] That whole mp3 vs. ogg vs. wma vs. yomamma thing
Mark Knecht <markknecht(a)comcast.net> wrote:
Personally, I like "artsy" {My tastes tend towards non-newagey Tangerine Dream
{Mars Polaris, Tangram, Poland, the old stuff, the dance mixes, most of the new
stuff}, mid period Jarre, Zappa, Synthpop, Group 87, New Romantic, Krautrock,
Early Floyd, jazz crossover stuff like Groove Armada... the Haflers, noise and
most concrete. Most dance stuff and industrial just sort of bores me.} Is this
available online?
Seen this place? http://www.newmusicjukebox.org/
I'm not quite sure what this means.
On Mon, 2003-10-13 at 18:40, Rick Taylor wrote:
It's just
that here most "real" electronica is constrained to academia or to
experimental/artsy categories ...None of which makes any money. {Actually,
that>
whole conceptual genre has fallen into real disfavor recently.}
Well, amongst our happy family of Linux Audio Users right here on this
list we have at least one very accomplished Electronica composer by the
name of Natasha Barrett. I purchased one of her CDs (yes, it was
actually available here in the US) and really dig it. I've listened to
it at least a dozen times in the last 2 weeks. (Be forwarned, it is
abstract in nature, but deliciously so...)
Natasha - please forgive me if I should not refer to your work as
'Electronica'. To my mind (and ear) it goes in that basic area, but I
probably don't have the education to try and classify it any further.
All I'll say is that at least this composer's work has not fallen into
disfavor with me. We have that
whole rock/blues and jazz legacy to deal with as well {as
opposed> to the watered
down, imitative stuff that comes from that side of the
pond.} The> American public has come to value things like depth and quality and
a certain> "earthiness" that you just don't get with
"Eurodisco."
This statement in a week when the Top 10, for the first time in History,
was completely comprised of all Black artists. Yes, our charts, and
apparently our brethren, have gone a different direction. {Tho' you
really couldn't tell it by looking at our charts. ... A few
minutes> on the
streets or in some of our backwoods clubs would convince you.}
3:51 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] That whole mp3 vs. ogg vs. wma vs. yomamma thing
We have
that whole rock/blues and jazz legacy to deal with as well {as
opposed> to the
watered down, imitative stuff that comes from pond.} The> American public has come to value
things like depth
and quality and
a certain> "earthiness" that you just
don't get with "Eurodisco."
This statement in a week when the Top 10, for the first time in History,
was completely comprised of all Black artists. Yes, our charts, and
apparently our brethren, have gone a different direction.
I'm not quite sure what this means.
{Tho' you really couldn't tell it by looking at our charts. ... A few
minutes> on the streets or in some of our backwoods clubs would 
15 Oct
15 Oct
4:45 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] That whole mp3 vs. ogg vs. wma vs. yomamma thing
Mark Knecht wrote / a écrit:
Hi Mark, hi all.
I'm not a native english speaker, so perhaps I totally misunderstand this sentence,
but anyway there I go:
Talking this way about a color (of a skin I believe) and music is really disturbing me.
Isn't Rock, blues and jazz are all coming from "black" people, even if today
there is mainly white people playing this music?
Rap is actually played by black musicians, but isn't Eminem a white boy? Looking at
the past, I can predict that in twenty-thirty years, hip-hop, rap and so-called R&B
will be played by white musicians. At this time, black musicians may be well playing
something new that some white musicians will hate...
So again, if I misunderstand the tone/sense of the Mark's Knecht text, sorry for
jumping on this like this.
Disclaimer: I'm white and there are colored people in my family. I'm leaving in
France.
cheers
GuyCLO~
-------------------------------------
#219055 http://counter.li.org
-------------------------------------
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/guy.clotilde/
-------------------------------------
Change your Linux PC in a powerful RythmStation,
with holborn's GMORGAN:
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/guy.clotilde/GMORGAN/
-------------------------------------
The Wright brothers were not the first to fly...they were the first to LAND.
My
unintelligible comment about black artists was only that this week
everything on
the radio is hip hop, rap or what passes taday as R&B, even
though I have a hard time equatig Beyonce Knowles, no matter how good
looking or talented she is, with R&B. Nothing on commercially driven radio
around her has anythign to do with, again, "that whole rock/blues and jazz
legacy".
14 Oct
14 Oct
3:07 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] That whole mp3 vs. ogg vs. wma vs. yomamma thing
That's not totally accurate, the US audience is just super into "retro",
hearing bands rehash all the styles of old. You've got a much better
chance of making it playing in a cover band than trying to do original
music, but really if you listen to what a very commercial producer like
Timbaland is doing, he's really pushing things by bringing in indian
samples and african/indian style pecussion, played by hand.
Most Linux artists are either academics who teach linux music for a
living, or indie hackers like me. However I'm demoing terminatorX at
SCALE this year and I'm lookign at writing some terminatorX articles for
Dj magazines, so I haven't given up on my own music, but if you look at
sucessfully underground artists liek Nels Cline, it takes years and
years of relentless dedication to just get by.
Part of that is that musicians are mostly limiting themselves to
thinking in terms of releasing only audio.
For me I'm really getting into video art and am working hard to climb
the learning curve on everything, learning to use Blender and building
opengl stuff to release dvd's and 3D gamesfor $$.
The thing is if you look at the statistics, DVD's sales are really the
thing that's cutting down on CD sales, more people are buying movies
instead of albums. So the thing to do is release you own DVD's for $$,
because people are more willing to pay $20 for an exxperimental DVD than
$5 for a CD.
On Mon, 2003-10-13 at 18:40, Rick Taylor wrote:
Tim Orford <tim(a)orford.org> wrote:
Ron is a shining example to us all. Personally i
make
european pop music which requires a lot more from your
system than just capturing, editing, and playing back audio
through a desk + outboard. European music is much more electronic
than US stuff. It makes me laugh that people in the US even have
an 'electronica' category.
It's just that here most "real" electronica is constrained to academia or
to
experimental/artsy categories ...None of which makes any money. {Actually, that
whole conceptual genre has fallen into real disfavor recently.}
We have that whole rock/blues and jazz legacy to deal with as well {as opposed
to the watered down, imitative stuff that comes from that side of the pond.} The
American public has come to value things like depth and quality and a certain
"earthiness" that you just don't get with "Eurodisco."
{Tho' you really couldn't tell it by looking at our charts. ... A few minutes
on the streets or in some of our backwoods clubs would convince you.}
>With the exception of vocals, there are no "performances"
>in the conventional sense. Most of the sounds are generated
>on the machine and need to be kept live to be able to
>make last minute changes. Personally I couldnt even manage without a
12 Oct
12 Oct
5:38 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] That whole mp3 vs. ogg vs. wma vs. yomamma thing
Hi,
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com
Instead they are stuck with crap like Protools.
LoL, aint it the truth!
I find it encouraging that so many people are
convinced they need Protools. That reality is a wide
open door of opportunity for LAD. I try not to think
about this as a commercial opportunity even though I
make my living as an engineer, producer and studio
owner. For me it's about the music and friendships.
LAD people have some great tools and we're gonna make
alot of new friends because we've got something to
share. Think about it this way, the next musician is
your blood brother/sister. What do you want for your
sister? I want herto be free. We're gonna "turn on"
alot of people.
We have the silver version of a multi-platinum single
hanging on the wall of our studio--the original tracks
were produced by my partner. That piece of crap was
produced with an 8bit sampler. I'll eat monkey farts
for breakfast before I recommend that my sister
purchase Protools and succomb to the "man".
Incidentally, my pallet is a little more sophisticated
than animal excrement--it's all about the Kraft
Mac&Cheese for this dawg.
During Novemeber my band will begin producing its new
album. I've done a couple of real fun productions over
the years and this one promises to be Mac&Cheese with
a glass of cold milk. My friends who will work on this
album all know about LAD. They are excited, in part
because of your tools and philosiphy. My friends and I
are like tractor repairmen who do not feel good about
buying new axels. We feel good when we fire up the
welder and fix the broken parts ourselves. We've got
everything in common with the tractor repairman. We
need that satisfaction.
I know this community is gonna produce alot of good
music.
When the delta blues musicians sang, "my baby done me
wrong," baby was a reference to the plantation owner
(I learned that on TV and know it to be the truth,
hehe). Those men were not obbsesed with how baby had
hurt their feelings. They were outraged by how their
owners were destroying their families. Those people
produced some important music. Perhaps my owner can't
physically intimidate me. However, they have
controlled my intellectual and property freedoms and
they've ignored me. I hate being ignored and that BS
stops here! LoL
Well, there I go opening my big mouth. Again! I'll go
wipe the grease off some dirty wrenches and cease with
the annoying diatribe.
ron
Have you
noticed that nearly all the new movies
with any computer geek
has the geek using a form of x windows? It
ain't
running on a M$ or mac
setup.
I always enjoy that!
although the Enterprise 'computer', despite looking
like the Ion wm,
is really a Director app i'm told :-)
cheers
--
Tim Orford
13 Oct
13 Oct
3:16 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] That whole mp3 vs. ogg vs. wma vs. yomamma thing
Hi
On Sun, 12 Oct 2003 12:22:54 -0700 (PDT), R Parker wrote / a écrit:
When the delta blues musicians sang, "my baby done me
wrong," baby was a reference to the plantation owner
(I learned that on TV and know it to be the truth,
hehe). Those men were not obbsesed with how baby had
hurt their feelings. They were outraged by how their
owners were destroying their families. Those people
produced some important music. Perh
Interesting food for thought. Sort of new light through old windows. Thanks.
GuyCLO~
-----------------------------------------------
#219055 http://counter.li.org
-----------------------------------------------
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/guy.clotilde/index.html
-----------------------------------------------
Change your Linux PC in a Rythm Station with holborn's GMORGAN:
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/guy.clotilde/GMORGAN/index.html
-----------------------------------------------
12 Oct
12 Oct
5:20 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] That whole mp3 vs. ogg vs. wma vs. yomamma thing
On Sunday 12 October 2003 10:59, Patrick Shirkey wrote:
has the geek using a form of x windows? It ain't
running on a M$ or mac
Or even x window! <g,d,&r>
"The revolution will not be televised"....
Ahh,
The revolution will not be brought to you from Redmond.
You will not be asked where you want to go today
The revolution will not show you ads
featuring colorful butterflies
It will not be based on a bloated IDE
It will not laugh in the face of Posix compliancy
The revolution will not be televised.
Brother.
13 Oct
13 Oct
3:53 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] That whole mp3 vs. ogg vs. wma vs. yomamma thing
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Sunday 12 October 2003 20:51, Larry Troxler wrote:
Ahh,
The revolution will not be brought to you from Redmond.
You will not be asked where you want to go today
The revolution will not show you ads
featuring colorful butterflies
It will not be based on a bloated IDE
It will not laugh in the face of Posix compliancy
The revolution will not be televised.
Brother.
Could you license these lyrics under the GFDL?
- --
GNU/Linux in education book project: http://book.schoolforge.net
Public key 0xFD82303B
key FP 0A65 5E83 F44F 47A5 3DFC 19C5 7779 E411 FD82 303B
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux)
iD8DBQE/iuGqd3nkEf2CMDsRAnjOAJ419dRPdWLKXGA2HGexk/Gm5QEvxACgmfzm
47u/1IOGpM3GyJR4XRFUneA=
=IF7m
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
10 Oct
10 Oct
7:13 a.m.
I've posted mp3 + ra in the past. I could add .ogg
to that
in the future to support the cause without cutting off my own nose,
right?
Sure - what we do is provide .ogg as standard and .mp3 as the inferior
alternative, legacy format. That begs the question 'what's better
about Ogg?' to which the answer is 'faster download and less storage
space for you, less bandwidth used for me'. Saving bandwith will be
appreciated by people hosting music sites.
I figure arguments about sound quality are lost on people who listen
to music on iPods or those little plastic speakers that you get free
with the computer. The same would go for discussion on patents for
people who use Windows; they are not really interested. But faster
downloads due to smaller file size - everyone can appreciate that.
Cheers
Daniel
12:19 p.m.
On Fri, Oct 10, 2003 at 09:58:14AM +0100, Daniel James wrote:
Sure - what we do is provide .ogg as standard and .mp3
as the inferior
alternative, legacy format. That begs the question 'what's better
about Ogg?' to which the answer is 'faster download and less storage
space for you, less bandwidth used for me'. Saving bandwith will be
appreciated by people hosting music sites.
I figure arguments about sound quality are lost on people who listen
to music on iPods or those little plastic speakers that you get free
with the computer. The same would go for discussion on patents for
people who use Windows; they are not really interested. But faster
downloads due to smaller file size - everyone can appreciate that.
i kind of agree, but filesize is not a unique advantage of ogg.
The marketing guy will come along and say 'use wma then'.
There are reputedly marginally better codecs than ogg (aac?),
but ogg has one single unique advantage: Freedom. I'm not
convinced that promoting it on any other grounds will be successful
in the long term.
"The clever combatant imposes his will on the enemy, but does not allow
the enemy's will to be imposed on him."
Sun Tzu. 400BC.
cheers :-)
--
Tim Orford
12:41 p.m.
i kind of agree, but filesize is not a unique
advantage of ogg.
I meant compared to MP3.
The marketing guy will come along and say 'use wma
then'.
That's marketing guys for you. DRM music formats aren't actually very
popular, are they?
ogg has one single unique advantage: Freedom. I'm
not
convinced that promoting it on any other grounds will be successful
in the long term.
I'd agree - I was thinking strictly short-term, as the post-MP3
formats jostle for position.
Cheers
Daniel
12:56 p.m.
i kind of
agree, but filesize is not a unique advantage of ogg.
I meant compared to MP3.
The marketing guy will come along and say
'use wma then'.
That's marketing guys for you. DRM music formats aren't actually very
popular, are they? ogg has one single unique advantage: Freedom.
I'm not
convinced that promoting it on any other grounds will be successful
in the long term.
I'd agree - I was thinking strictly short-term, as the post-MP3
formats jostle for position.
1:20 p.m.
i think wma usage could be more popular than
it first appears if you hang out in 'cool' circles...
Certainly .wma seems to be taking off for web offerings from major
labels, probably due to the promise of DRM. But I wonder what
proportion of music on people's hard drives is in .wma format.
Cheers
Daniel
14 Oct
14 Oct
7:03 p.m.
On Friday 10 October 2003 05:22, Mark Knecht wrote:
Sure. No problem. However, don't necessarily think
everyone wants to be
an example. I've posted mp3 + ra in the past. I could add .ogg to that
in the future to support the cause without cutting off my own nose,
right?
Right. That's precisely what I _am_ doing. :-)
http://glastonburymusic.org.uk/tim/
Frank does have a point, I must confess. If I'd been able to run MUSH under
Windows I might never have migrated (I _know_ that's got nothing to do with
music :-). However, I could _play_ MUSH under Windows. There's a balance
there, somewhere.
Never Give Up
tim hall
15 Oct
15 Oct
3:02 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] hammerhead works under wine
I've got the hammerhead step sampler working under wine, audio recording
and all:
http://www.threechords.com/hammerhead/
10:02 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] hammerhead works under wine
Brian Redfern wrote:
I've got the hammerhead step sampler working under
wine, audio recording
and all:
http://www.threechords.com/hammerhead/
Nice. Installation went smooth as silk and the app plays well. Have you
noticed that WINE now supports JACK ?
If you have the time, try LeafDrums2 and let me know how it works for
you. I had it playing very well under RH 7.2 and WINE but now it just
hangs (I'm now on PlanetC's RH 9).
== dp
10 Oct
10 Oct
4:26 a.m.
Mark Knecht wrote:
You were also suggesting that if we don't provide music in mp3 format we
are missing out on a huge market.
ogg format comes with less political bs than any of the other major file
formats and if a user can't figure out how to listen to one that's just
too bad. If you've only got blue chips and the slot machines want red
chips you either don't play or you go and get red chips right?
I wouldn't buy an mp3 anyway and wouldn't sell any music that wasn't at
least cd quality, so providing mp3's is not a high priority for me.
One of the ways that Linux audio will appeal to people is by retaining a
certain amount of exclusivity. That's what makes it cool. If we end up
with millions of people all playing the same cheesey noises with Linux
apps then we've lost IMO.
--
Patrick Shirkey - Boost Hardware Ltd.
Http://www.boosthardware.com
Http://www.djcj.org - The Linux Audio Users guide
========================================
Being on stage with the band in front of crowds shouting, "Get off! No!
We want normal music!", I think that was more like acting than anything
I've ever done.
Goldie, 8 Nov, 2002
The Scotsman
I back you on this Frank. It's roughly
equivalent to gpl'ing code. At
least from a philosophical perspective if not legal. Anyone who tries to
pass off an open source ogg release as their own music is just lame but
they should be encouraged to sample it and rework it to their hearts
content. I just wish flac was more widely accepted but that ain't gonna
happen.
Patrick,
I didn't understand your point. I didn't think we were talking about
passing other people's music off as our own. I thought we were saying
that Windows users cannot listen to ogg files without making adjustments
to their systems.
I guess I just didn't follow your point.
4:55 a.m.
ogg format comes with less political bs than any of
the other major file
formats and if a user can't figure out how to listen to one that's just
too bad. If you've only got blue chips and the slot machines want red
chips you either don't play or you go and get red chips right?
this is a classic marketing mistake (not that we're in the game of marketing
on this list) - experience I've had is, unless you're Michael Jackson or
Eminem, if they've got blue chips and you only take red chips, they go home,
you starve, next time, you come accepting blue, you eat. as a person, I
love .ogg - as a business man, it's not even worth my time. I'll probably
share songs with people i meet in this community using .ogg - on the
website, it'll be mp3s (or both - both is always a good thing)
I wouldn't buy an mp3 anyway and wouldn't sell
any music that wasn't at
least cd quality, so providing mp3's is not a high priority for me.
yep. me too. another experience of mine is, mp3s don't sell. it's like
selling dub tapes. dub tapes are what the consumer makes off of your high
quality CD and passes around. they ain't gonna pay for 'em. when they're
ready to buy, they'll buy a CD. mp3s are for promotion, period. which is
it that's crumbling now, emusic.com? starting to raise their fees and stop
allowing unlimited downloads. every site on the internet that paid
musicians through charging for downloads has implemented charging musicians
for the service. napster is reopening on a charge basis. see how long that
shit lasts.
eh. 2cents. anybody wanna buy a CD?
www.nquit.com
;)
11 Oct
11 Oct
1:50 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] ogg player for Windows?
"Aaron Trumm" <aaron(a)nquit.com> wrote:
> I wouldn't buy an mp3 anyway and wouldn't
sell any music that wasn't at
> least cd quality, so providing mp3's is not a high priority for me.
But I would pay for a service that provided good quality mp3s of music I like
without my having to search through tons of bands I don't.
for the service. napster is reopening on a charge
basis. see how long that
shit lasts.
Hopefully it will go.
10 Oct
10 Oct
1:16 p.m.
You were also suggesting that if we don't provide music in mp3 format we
are missing out on a huge market.
I don't think I was suggesting that at all, but I'm not clear as to who the
'we' is in your sentence above.
My point was that *if* an individual musician *wants* people to hear his
music, then *he/she* has choices to make. If *he/she* chooses to release
only in .ogg format, then *he/she* lives with the consequences of that
decision. That is *his/her* right.
In the original case, where Tim (I think) stated he'd like to dump mp3s from
his site, but he was worried that people would stop listening, he is simply
stating facts as he sees them and my point is supporting his contention.
I defend your right to choose any format you'd like. I have no problem with
that. Do you have a problem with me choosing mp3s and reaching more people
more easily? Maybe that's the contention here...
ogg format comes with less political bs than any of the other major file
formats and if a user can't figure out how to listen to one that's just
too bad. If you've only got blue chips and the slot machines want red
chips you either don't play or you go and get red chips right?
As a user, absolutely. As a business man who is paid based on how many
people play on my slot machine, I might want to buy a machine that will
accept both red and blue chips, right? I make more money. I think Tim may
provide both mp3 and oog, but he's saying that 99% of the people out there
listen to the mp3s.
I wouldn't buy an mp3 anyway and wouldn't sell any music that wasn't at
least cd quality, so providing mp3's is not a high priority for me.
I won't buy one either.
One of the ways that Linux audio will appeal to
<ADD> certain, technical </ADD>
people is by retaining a
certain amount of exclusivity. That's what makes it cool.
<ADD> for certain types of people. </ADD>
If we end up
with millions of people all playing the same cheesey noises with Linux
apps then we've lost IMO.
I think we are in totally different head spaces. If the next great cheesy
pop star comes from the Linux world to replace <you enter current cheesy pop
starts name here>, and the new cheesy pop star only has music in .ogg
format, will people EVER hear this new cheesy pop star so that *he/she* can
become big and dominate our media? I think not, but you are free to
disagree.
In my mind technology is about making like *easier* and *better* for people,
not more difficult. If, in someone else's mind, life is about making
political statements, then I defend their right to do that. However, few
make a difference in my life, but that's just me. I think you're in a
different place which is cool.
With best regards,
Mark
11 Oct
11 Oct
8:07 a.m.
Mark Knecht wrote:
We as in musicians who intend to make money out of their work.
Who cares? :)
You were also
suggesting that if we don't provide music in mp3 format we
are missing out on a huge market.
I don't think I was suggesting that at all, but I'm not clear as to who the
'we' is in your sentence above.
I defend your right to choose any format you'd
like. I have no problem with
that. Do you have a problem with me choosing mp3s and reaching more people
more easily? Maybe that's the contention here...
No I was taking a tangent on your line of conversation that Frank was
pointing to. You replied...
If we end up
with millions of people all playing the same cheesey noises with Linux
apps then we've lost IMO.
I think we are in totally different head spaces. If the next great cheesy
pop star comes from the Linux world to replace <you enter current cheesy pop
starts name here>, and the new cheesy pop star only has music in .ogg
format, will people EVER hear this new cheesy pop star so that *he/she* can
become big and dominate our media? I think not, but you are free to
disagree.
In my mind technology is about making like *easier*
and *better* for people,
not more difficult.
That's a professional focus which may not apply to development of open
source. Technology is also to make things possible which were not before.
If, in someone else's mind, life is about making
political statements, then I defend their right to do that. However, few
make a difference in my life, but that's just me. I think you're in a
different place which is cool.
Yep. Seoul is different to San Fran. No denying that.
--
Patrick Shirkey - Boost Hardware Ltd.
Http://www.boosthardware.com
Http://www.djcj.org - The Linux Audio Users guide
========================================
Being on stage with the band in front of crowds shouting, "Get off! No!
We want normal music!", I think that was more like acting than anything
I've ever done.
Goldie, 8 Nov, 2002
The Scotsman
10 Oct
10 Oct
3:16 p.m.
Hallo,
Mark Knecht hat gesagt: // Mark Knecht wrote:
I acknowledge your right to have this opinion, but
it isn't going to
change the basic fact that if a Windows user doesn't know how to listen
to your ogg, he isn't going to hear it.
You're right, but this doesn't bother me for my music. I have a link
to foobar2000.org on my site for all my Windows friends. I hope I can
promote it this way.
This is a whole other ballpark when it comes to "commercial" use. I
work for a public radio station's website and we support 3 formats for
live streams: RA, MP3 and WMA. WMA has by far the worst sound quality
but still is the most popular stream.
We sometimes get mails by open source advocates like me who ask for an
ogg stream. But as streams cost a lot of money and as ogg players
aren't in widespread we don't plan to support ogg in the near future.
It would be too much effort for us without really getting more
listeners by this action. It's a pity, but that's the way it is.
To me this is one more reason to advocate ogg where I can.
I think the real job to be done is to make ogg a
standard that's
accepted by M$ one fo these days and just included in their Media Player
releases, so the user doesn't have to figure this stuff out. As I said,
I went 15 years without bothering until today. (Of course, I am a bit
slow!) ;-)
I don't think this will happen, but mp3 wasn't supported in earlier
Windows OSes almost everone has some kind of Winamp installed now. I'd
like that to happen with Ogg somehow, too. Winamp coming with ogg
plugin is a good chance.
ciao
--
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
3:50 p.m.
But as streams cost a lot of money and as ogg players
aren't in widespread we don't plan to support ogg in the near
future.
There is the matter of the radio station or whatever keeping its
options open so it doesn't get screwed by the vendor. I'm sure Virgin
Radio has figured this one out.
Surely the cost of streams is in proportion to the number of users, if
the software is free beer?
As for .wma being the most popular, that's probably due to tight OS
integration and the fact that so many users just have what came with
the machine when they bought it. It's up to broadcasters to recommend
better quality and performance formats if they want competitive
advantage.
Cheers
Daniel
4 p.m.
This is a whole other ballpark when it comes to
"commercial" use. I
work for a public radio station's website and we support 3 formats for
live streams: RA, MP3 and WMA. WMA has by far the worst sound quality
but still is the most popular stream.
Isn't this just because it's what Windows Media Player tries to get first,
if the user doesn't ask for anything specific? It's coming out of the GUI
pages in Media Player directly. Users see what looks like a web page
(probably is a web page for all I know) and those web pages, programmed by
M$, are asking for WMA, so that's what most people get.
I think an underlying aspect of this whole conversation is that users do not
know what they are getting, and they frankly really don't care what they are
getting. They just get it in a mindless way, like TV. It ain't perfect, but
it works.
(BTW - Cheers to you for helping support Public Radio in any way, shape or
form. Can you help me figure out why KQED.org will no longer stream audio to
my windows desktop?) Did M$ figure out I use my XP machine to support the
Linux world and decide to cause me problems?) ;-)
I don't think this will happen, but mp3 wasn't supported in earlier
Windows OSes almost everone has some kind of Winamp installed now. I'd
like that to happen with Ogg somehow, too. Winamp coming with ogg
plugin is a good chance.
Yep, possibly.
5:48 p.m.
Hallo,
Mark Knecht hat gesagt: // Mark Knecht wrote:
Not in our case, see our streaming popup here:
http://www.dradio.de/streaming/pop_up.html
They have the choice without any recommendation by our side.
ciao
--
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
This is a
whole other ballpark when it comes to "commercial" use. I
work for a public radio station's website and we support 3 formats for
live streams: RA, MP3 and WMA. WMA has by far the worst sound quality
but still is the most popular stream.
Isn't this just because it's what Windows Media Player tries to get first,
if the user doesn't ask for anything specific?
8:35 p.m.
Isn't this
just because it's what Windows Media Player tries to
get first,
if the user doesn't ask for anything
specific?
Not in our case, see our streaming popup here:
http://www.dradio.de/streaming/pop_up.html
They have the choice without any recommendation by our side.
2:17 p.m.
On Thu, Oct 09, 2003 at 10:38:04PM +0100, tim hall wrote:
Yes, and the question is a highly pertinent one if you
think about it for a
moment. I manage a music website - using Linux entirely nowadays - I'd dearly
love to scrap all the .mp3 files in favour of .oggs but it occurs to me that
this would mean /most/ of my readers won't listen to the music
I also have a website with some of my music on it.
My little push in the direction of open source is that you can download
the "demo" tracks as MP3, but if you can be bothered with Ogg you
are rewarded with the ability to download an entire album!
--
Anahata
anahata(a)treewind.co.uk -+- http://www.treewind.co.uk
Home: 01638 720444 Mob: 07976 263827
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days inactive
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linux-audio-user@lists.linuxaudio.org
76 comments
27 participants
participants (27)
-
Aaron Trumm -
Anahata -
Benjamin Flaming -
Brian Redfern -
Burkhard Woelfel -
Daniel James -
Dave Phillips -
Frank Barknecht -
Greg Reddin -
Guy Clotilde -
Guy Daniel CLOTILDE
-
Jan Depner -
Joachim Backhaus -
Larry Troxler -
Mark Knecht -
Mark Knecht -
Mathias Lundgren -
Michal Seta -
Patrick Shirkey -
Paul Winkler -
Pete Bessman -
R Parker -
Rick Taylor -
Robin Y. Millette -
Taybin Rutkin -
tim hall -
Tim Orford