29 Mar
2015
29 Mar
'15
5:17 p.m.
Hi,
It seems to me that the Behringer folks have done a Linux version of
all their editors for their entire range of digital mixers and also
Android versions of the GUIs. I'm pretty impressed!
That's a complete different way of doing it compared to for example
Mackie and Line6, who avoid to even take the word Linux in the mouth
officially - that's the way I feel it anyway. Well, Line6 discovered a
while back that something called Android exists and provided Android
GUIs for some of their products.
If I understand everything right the X32 can be connected to a Linux PC
and then the channels are discovered by Alsa and can be used by Jack.
Have anyone here tested the X Air series?
Jostein
29 Mar
29 Mar
5:56 p.m.
Not yet but it is high on my list. let us know if you beat me to it.
Steve
On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 05:16:52PM +0200, Jostein Chr. Andersen wrote:
Hi,
It seems to me that the Behringer folks have done a Linux version of
all their editors for their entire range of digital mixers and also
Android versions of the GUIs. I'm pretty impressed!
That's a complete different way of doing it compared to for example
Mackie and Line6, who avoid to even take the word Linux in the mouth
officially - that's the way I feel it anyway. Well, Line6 discovered
a while back that something called Android exists and provided
Android GUIs for some of their products.
If I understand everything right the X32 can be connected to a Linux
PC and then the channels are discovered by Alsa and can be used by
Jack. Have anyone here tested the X Air series?
Jostein
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30 Mar
30 Mar
7:43 a.m.
On Sun, 29 Mar 2015, Jostein Chr. Andersen wrote:
Beware, this message is kind of scrambled as I started it after reading
the x18 manual and have edited it as I found new sources of info which I
have tried to note.
While I am quite happy just now with the D66 as an AI, I am well aware
that it's days are numbered. The computer I am using it on is less than a
year old and has a PCI slot. But either it or the D66 may get faulty and I
will be looking at something new. I was thinking that something like the
allen & heath QU series mixers would make a good AI and now the X32 looks
to add to the mix. Either one would give me a lot more I/O than 6 plus a
control surface better than the MCP for about the same price as an 8i/o AI
plus ADAT to expand to 16i/o plus an MCP controller (looking at the
16input models on both).
It seems to me that the Behringer folks have done a
Linux version of all
their editors for their entire range of digital mixers and also Android
versions of the GUIs. I'm pretty impressed!
All the work has already been done. A look at the "Quick start manual" is
quite instructive. This is really a USB2 Audio IF with mixer engine. There
are a number of Audio IF's that already have similar things in them, but
they have not generally been controlable from Linux. This is MIDI
controlable and the various control apps seem to use MIDI (over IP) to
control the mixer. As I say, there are a lot of these kinds of apps around
already and at least some of them are open source.
Note: Maybe not, see below after I did some more reading. The X32 linux
edit/controler release notes say it uses OSC. The X Air release notes do
not say anything at all. Neither application comes with any manual at
all... But, After running and playing around with these apps and
restarting them I noticed that changes I had made on first run were still
there... On further investigation, I found ~/.X18-Edit.init and the
contents look a lot like OSC commands (ch/01/mix ON -5.4 ON +0 - this is
with the fader at -5.4)
The manual does include the MIDI implementation. Everything is CC
controled (HUI/MCP uses notes, pitch wheel and cc) Faders are 7 bit
(0-127). There is something called X OSC which is done via sysex They say
"text based OSC". There is no mention of metering at all.
After Downloading and running the X air Linux mixer app, I am not sure it
uses the MIDI in the chart. There is nothing that says what it does do but
after reading the X32 stuff, it may be OSC. The mixer app does include
everything, much more than the MIDI implementation shows.
If I understand everything right the X32 can be
connected to a Linux PC and
then the channels are discovered by Alsa and can be used by Jack. Have anyone
here tested the X Air series?
It (X AIR) is a class compliant USB2 IF. I am guessing that if they have
"Linux" listed they have tested it. It is interesting that win is listed as:
Windows 7 or higher
Apple:
Mac OSX 10.6.8 or higher/iOS 7 or higher
Linux is just:
Linux
The X32 mixer has no mention of Linux in the manual and the mention of the
Linux/Android controllers is at the bottom of the web page as well (with
the windows control app) while the older copy farther up mentions only OSX
and iOS. So the Linux app is something new. The release notes for the X32
say it uses OSC for commumication. The MIDI setup seem to be the first 8
channels only in HUI/MCP/cc modes, plus whatever controls have "learned".
So the MIDI part on this one is to allow the mixer to be used as a control
surface. It does not look like MIDI controls the rest of the mixer. The
Linux edit control does not come with a manual (runs ok though) and the
OSC commands are not given... I imagine an OSC monitor could pick them up
pretty quick though. (I think the OSC commands are in the *init files)
The two apps are worth downloading just to see how they are put together
and to see the different ways they have of presenting the same data.
--
Len Ovens
www.ovenwerks.net
8:01 a.m.
Forgot to add, it comes with Tracktion. The Linux version seems to work
fine. I am supposed to be able to unlock it for free, but when I try to it
asks for payment options and I am not willing to give credit info when not
paying. Tracktion is not good enough to switch for me. The jack
implementation is a bit odd. The one interesting thing it did do was to
recognise my Yamaha DD11 channel 16 is really drums and map them to
channel 10 when I recorded them. But it sends channel 16 right through on
monitor mode.
Still, I have been playing with it and bitwig. It is nice to see the
options available for Linux.
--
Len Ovens
www.ovenwerks.net
8:14 a.m.
On 2015-03-30 08:01, Len Ovens wrote:
Forgot to add, it comes with Tracktion. The Linux
version seems to
work fine. I am supposed to be able to unlock it for free, but when I
try to it asks for payment options and I am not willing to give
credit
info when not paying. Tracktion is not good enough to switch for me.
The jack implementation is a bit odd. The one interesting thing it
did
do was to recognise my Yamaha DD11 channel 16 is really drums and map
them to channel 10 when I recorded them. But it sends channel 16
right
through on monitor mode.
Still, I have been playing with it and bitwig. It is nice to see the
options available for Linux.
Thanks Len for your informative answers, they are very helpful! I'm
going to mix and record a Jazz festival in Stockholm in the beginning of
August, so I'm checking the options.
Jostein
11:11 a.m.
On 03/30/2015 01:42 AM, Len Ovens wrote:
On Sun, 29 Mar 2015, Jostein Chr. Andersen wrote:
Beware, this message is kind of scrambled as I started it after reading
the x18 manual and have edited it as I found new sources of info which I
have tried to note.
While I am quite happy just now with the D66 as an AI, I am well aware
that it's days are numbered. The computer I am using it on is less than
a year old and has a PCI slot. But either it or the D66 may get faulty
and I will be looking at something new. I was thinking that something
like the allen & heath QU series mixers would make a good AI and now the
X32 looks to add to the mix. Either one would give me a lot more I/O
than 6 plus a control surface better than the MCP for about the same
price as an 8i/o AI plus ADAT to expand to 16i/o plus an MCP controller
(looking at the 16input models on both).
So do these mixers give 16, 18 and 32 discreet input channels over USB
(recognized by ALSA) or are only their AUX/MAIN outputs sent over USB
to the computer?
David
3:10 p.m.
On Mon, 30 Mar 2015, David Santamauro wrote:
So do these mixers give 16, 18 and 32 discreet input
channels over USB
(recognized by ALSA) or are only their AUX/MAIN outputs sent over USB to the
computer?
The channels are routable. That is you can choose what (if anything) goes
to the USB line. However, I do not know if the USB xceiver can be set to
only send a few lines. Routing only 8 channels to USB may mean that there
are 32 USB lines but only audio on 8. It seems the X32 may not come with
USB out of the box, that may be an extra card. It comes with AES50 OOTB.
The Xair does have USB, 18 i/o. There are 11 points on the channel strip
where the audio can be routed from including raw from the ADC to post
fader. You can also choose Aux in, fx in and out, bus and mains. The Setup
page seems to suggest USB can be set to 18 or 2 i/o.
With reguard to the X32, their web page says:
"We’ve also made the X32 even more flexible, with swappable expansion
cards for connecting to other multi-channel audio networking via USB,
ADAT, MADI and Dante protocols, in addition to the onboard ULTRANET and
AES50 connectivity."
Then:
"A wide array of X-Expansion Cards can easily be used in place of the
pre-installed X-USB card to release the power of X32 into existing MADI*,
Dante* and ADAT networks."
So it does come with the USB card installed. The mixer app does not show
the USB IF... I guess it checks what is actually there first. But the
routing looks to be raw in only. The routing is much harder to
understand... but a lot more i/o to deal with.
If I was buying one, I would be tempted to walk into the local music store
with a laptop and try it out.
--
Len Ovens
www.ovenwerks.net
3:23 p.m.
On Mon, 30 Mar 2015, Len Ovens wrote:
have USB, 18 i/o. There are 11 points on the channel
strip where the audio
can be routed from including raw from the ADC to post fader. You can also
This seems to be not true. I think the indicators just tell you that a
channel to USB, comes from before the strip. You can hit the other parts
of the strip only by using a bus.
--
Len Ovens
www.ovenwerks.net
3:43 p.m.
On 03/30/2015 09:10 AM, Len Ovens wrote:
On Mon, 30 Mar 2015, David Santamauro wrote:
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/XR16
The product description for the X16(air) says:
"X Air Series 16-input StageBox/Rackmount Digital Mixer for iOS/Android
Devices with 8 Programmable Midas Preamps, Integrated Wi-Fi Module,
2-channel USB Interface, and Rackmount Ears"
==> 2-channel USB Interface
So a simple stereo audio interface.
So do these mixers give 16, 18 and 32 discreet
input channels over USB
(recognized by ALSA) or are only their AUX/MAIN outputs sent over USB
to the computer?
The channels are routable. That is you can choose what (if anything)
goes to the USB line. However, I do not know if the USB xceiver can be
set to only send a few lines. Routing only 8 channels to USB may mean
that there are 32 USB lines but only audio on 8. It seems the X32 may
not come with USB out of the box, that may be an extra card. It comes
with AES50 OOTB. The Xair does have USB, 18 i/o. There are 11 points on
the channel strip where the audio can be routed from including raw from
the ADC to post fader. You can also choose Aux in, fx in and out, bus
and mains. The Setup page seems to suggest USB can be set to 18 or 2 i/o. If I was buying one, I would be tempted to walk into
the local music
store with a laptop and try it out.
Indeed.
11:07 p.m.
On Mon, 30 Mar 2015, David Santamauro wrote:
On 03/30/2015 09:10 AM, Len Ovens wrote:
I was looking at the X(R)18. Which acording to Sweetwater has 16 i/o but
on the Behringer site says 18/18. I would hope the manufacture is the
right one. Actually, the sweetwater site says 16 USB channels in one place
and 18 io half a page away... so I can see both numbers at the same time.
:P
The XR16 on the other hand appears not to do USB interface at all. Rather
it allows one to record audio dirrect to USB drive. That is it has a host
port but not a client port so far as I can tell. So for using it as an
audio IF, the X18 or XR18 are the minimum requirement. $200 more for the
USB IF.
Not a bad price I guess, for me the idea of buying a mixer over an AI is
to get the control surface. So $700 plus $600, $1300 for the xr1800 with 9
motor faders or $1500 for The x32 Producer with 17 faders and 32USB i/o,
16 Mic pre, 6 more line inputs and 16 outputs with no extra gear. (I may
be off, I also see another Talkback input, but don't know the quality of
the pre) The motor faders are set up as 8 input strips (with banking), 8
bus strips (may be otherwise asignable as VCA control) and one master.
This would not be a full MCP controller, but then Ardour is a long way
from using the whole of an MCP surface anyway. The OSC part may be better
though it would require middleware to work with Ardour.
On the other hand, I do want to try some things in control surface design
so by the time I am ready to buy I may not need/want another surface.
--
Len Ovens
www.ovenwerks.net
with AES50 OOTB. The Xair does have USB, 18 i/o.
There are 11 points on
the channel strip where the audio can be routed from including raw from
the ADC to post fader. You can also choose Aux in, fx in and out, bus
and mains. The Setup page seems to suggest USB can be set to 18 or 2 i/o.
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/XR16
The product description for the X16(air) says:
"X Air Series 16-input StageBox/Rackmount Digital Mixer for iOS/Android
Devices with 8 Programmable Midas Preamps, Integrated Wi-Fi Module, 2-channel
USB Interface, and Rackmount Ears"
==> 2-channel USB Interface
So a simple stereo audio interface. 
11:20 p.m.
On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 5:07 PM, Len Ovens <len(a)ovenwerks.net> wrote:
then Ardour is a long way from using the whole of an
MCP surface anyway.
?? We support the entire protocol. I have an SSL Nucleus and Ardour can use
every button and every knob and fader. What are you thinking of?
31 Mar
31 Mar
12:49 a.m.
On Mon, 30 Mar 2015, Paul Davis wrote:
then Ardour is a long way from using the whole
of an MCP surface
anyway.
?? We support the entire protocol. I have an SSL Nucleus and Ardour can use every
button and every knob and fader. What are you thinking of?
--------------------------------------------------
There is a lot of writing below, so in case you don't make it all the way
through (thats ok BTW). I just want to say that I am not complaining
either about the state of Ardour or the speed with which work is being
done. I am delighted to have what I have and with what works that allows
me to record and mix music. I am not suggesting in any way that any of
these things are priority, which is why I have never complained about
them. I have looked at the code in this area, but c++ and I don't seem to
get along. I can't follow it that well, let alone create patches though I
would like to. I would probably just waste people's time debugging my
badly written code. I do c ok if it's simple.
--------------------------------------------------
Ok, I may be mistaken on some things. I don't seem to be able to get the
SOLO off to work. The ones for each channel work fine, but by my notes
90 5A 7F should turn off all SOLOs. It didn't seem to do anything. My
thought was that it would do the same as the big flashing solo button on
the Ardour transport pannel. The other thing that seems odd is that the
"Logic Control User's Manual" says that when using the bank select, the
last bank should include up to the last channel. So if there are 18
channels, and a bank is 8 channels, there should be 1-8, 9-16 and 11-18.
So far so good, then it says that banking backwards the banks should
always start an even number of banks from the beginning. So 11-18, 9-16,
and 1-8. What happens to me is that I have 11-16, 3-10 and 1-8. (actually
I was using banks of 5, but the idea is the same) The other thing that
does not do as I would expect is the channel sellect button does not make
that channel selected on the mixer GUI (and the editor too for that
matter) Also, even aside from a control surface I would think making a
track selected (as from the edit window) should force the same track in
the mix window to be visible (scroll right or left till that channel is in
the visible part of the mixer window). I would even go so far as to
suggest that it should at least be selectable that whatever bank is valid
on the control surface should have all channels visible as well (if
possible). The really important parts like fader moves, channel buttons
and transports do work very well. It is enough for me to work with as I
don't have all the buttons anyway. I don't have an LCD display (it's
comming).
Now I may not have the latest version either 3.5.something (and it may
have been older when I was testing these things). So some of these things
may be fixed. Also some of the things I think make sense, may not really.
Note that all of the things I noted above are mouse clicks outside of the
menuing system (solo lamp, selecting a track, moving the view point of the
GUI) and most MIDI mappable things are from the menu list. KB short cuts
can not be assigned to them either.
Speaking of selecting... (this is GUI related) An example here would make
sense:
Channel one has an Eq plugin.(in this case) and the context menu will show
me the available controls that I can have showing. Ok, now I select
channel two. The mix strip has red around it and the editor window shows
channel two as selected as well. now I right click in the plugin area of
channel two and hover over the controls menu selection and I see the EQ
controls from channel one still. Now I know there is no Eq plugin in
channel two so I am ok, but if there was, I would assume I was looking at
the eq for channel two and might adjust it which would be bad.
These are just a few quick things from top of my head just now. (the MIDI
filtering for input MIDI either doesn't filter or doesn't do what I
expect.. I tried to separate a MIDI stream into 16 tracks allowing one
channel per track)
--
Len Ovens
www.ovenwerks.net
30 Mar
30 Mar
11:22 p.m.
On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 02:07:15PM -0700, Len Ovens wrote:
I was looking at the X(R)18. Which acording to
Sweetwater has 16 i/o
but on the Behringer site says 18/18. I would hope the manufacture
is the right one. Actually, the sweetwater site says 16 USB channels
in one place and 18 io half a page away... so I can see both numbers
at the same time. :P
just a quick remark on USB and Behringer. At my new workplace our
boss, in a fit of enlightment and for reasons only known to himself,
decided to buy a cheap Behringer mixer with a USB interface. Nobody
here needs it and it remained in its box for months.
Some week ago I had some spare time and decided to have a look at
it. Connected the USB to my Linux workstation and connected some
headphones to the mixer. Result: with all faders down and just
the HP volume turned up there was a high level 50/100 Hz in the
headphones. Removing the USB connection was enough to stop it.
I put the thing back in its carton box, and the box back into
the corner of the lab where I found it.
Ciao,
--
FA
A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia.
It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris
and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)
31 Mar
31 Mar
1 a.m.
On Mon, 30 Mar 2015, Fons Adriaensen wrote:
Some week ago I had some spare time and decided to
have a look at
it. Connected the USB to my Linux workstation and connected some
headphones to the mixer. Result: with all faders down and just
the HP volume turned up there was a high level 50/100 Hz in the
headphones. Removing the USB connection was enough to stop it.
Good to know. The last mixer I bought I went through channel by channel
and each control looking odd things like that. I would have thought there
should be no analog Audio anywhere near the USB.
--
Len Ovens
www.ovenwerks.net
9:51 p.m.
Fons Adriaensen <fons(a)linuxaudio.org> schrieb am Mo., 30. März 2015 um
23:22 Uhr:
just a quick remark on USB and Behringer.[...] decided to buy a cheap
Behringer mixer with a USB interface. [...]Result: with all faders down
and just the HP volume turned up there was a high level 50/100 Hz in the
headphones.
So what kind of message are you exactly trying to deliver?
I guess most anyone here knows about Behringer's reputation. And (most?)
everyone who has been working with the X32 series agrees that this is not
the Behringer we used to know. On the contrary, everyone I've been talking
to is in high praise of this series. There actually seems to be a pre-Midas
and a post-Midas Behringer. (Their recent speakers are getting good
reviews, too, btw.)
I have the impression that the X18 is closer to the X32 range than to
pre-Midas Behringer. But I can't back this in any way.
--Felix
30 Mar
30 Mar
6:22 p.m.
On Mon, 30 Mar 2015 06:10:00 -0700 (PDT)
Len Ovens <len(a)ovenwerks.net> wrote:
On Mon, 30 Mar 2015, David Santamauro wrote:
FWIW, I use an X32 to record my band. It does come with both FW and
class compliant USB interface, and I regularly record 32 channels from
it using jack/linux. Haven't tried to use it as a control surface..
--
Joakim
So do these mixers give 16, 18 and 32 discreet
input channels over
USB (recognized by ALSA) or are only their AUX/MAIN outputs sent
over USB to the computer?
The channels are routable. That is you can choose what (if anything)
goes to the USB line. However, I do not know if the USB xceiver can
be set to only send a few lines. Routing only 8 channels to USB may
mean that there are 32 USB lines but only audio on 8. It seems the
X32 may not come with USB out of the box, that may be an extra card.
It comes with AES50 OOTB. The Xair does have USB, 18 i/o. There are
11 points on the channel strip where the audio can be routed from
including raw from the ADC to post fader. You can also choose Aux in,
fx in and out, bus and mains. The Setup page seems to suggest USB can
be set to 18 or 2 i/o.
With reguard to the X32, their web page says:
"We’ve also made the X32 even more flexible, with swappable expansion
cards for connecting to other multi-channel audio networking via USB,
ADAT, MADI and Dante protocols, in addition to the onboard ULTRANET
and AES50 connectivity."
Then:
"A wide array of X-Expansion Cards can easily be used in place of the
pre-installed X-USB card to release the power of X32 into existing
MADI*, Dante* and ADAT networks."
So it does come with the USB card installed. The mixer app does not
show the USB IF... I guess it checks what is actually there first.
But the routing looks to be raw in only. The routing is much harder
to understand... but a lot more i/o to deal with.
If I was buying one, I would be tempted to walk into the local music
store with a laptop and try it out.
6:25 p.m.
On 2015-03-30 18:22, Joakim Hernberg wrote:
...
FWIW, I use an X32 to record my band. It does come
with both FW and
class compliant USB interface, and I regularly record 32 channels
from
it using jack/linux. Haven't tried to use it as a control surface..
That is worth everything! :-)
6:26 p.m.
On Mon, 30 Mar 2015 18:22:17 +0200
Joakim Hernberg <jhernberg(a)alchemy.lu> wrote:
FWIW, I use an X32 to record my band. It does come
with both FW and
class compliant USB interface, and I regularly record 32 channels from
it using jack/linux.
Is this using USB or FireWire?
--
======================================================================
Joe Hartley - UNIX/network Consultant - jh(a)brainiac.com
Without deviation from the norm, "progress" is not possible. - FZappa
6:31 p.m.
On Mon, 30 Mar 2015 12:26:23 -0400
Joe Hartley <jh(a)brainiac.com> wrote:
On Mon, 30 Mar 2015 18:22:17 +0200
Joakim Hernberg <jhernberg(a)alchemy.lu> wrote:
I'm using USB as my laptop has no FW inteface.
--
Joakim
FWIW, I use an X32 to record my band. It does
come with both FW and
class compliant USB interface, and I regularly record 32 channels
from it using jack/linux.
Is this using USB or FireWire?
6:34 p.m.
On Mon, 30 Mar 2015 18:31:12 +0200
Joakim Hernberg <jhernberg(a)alchemy.lu> wrote:
On Mon, 30 Mar 2015 12:26:23 -0400
Joe Hartley <jh(a)brainiac.com> wrote:
That really is fantastic news, these mixers sound better and better.
The touch surface controls are not my cup of tea, but I've got a BCF2000
and I bet it's fairly easy to get it working with an X32 device.
--
======================================================================
Joe Hartley - UNIX/network Consultant - jh(a)brainiac.com
Without deviation from the norm, "progress" is not possible. - FZappa
On Mon, 30 Mar 2015 18:22:17 +0200
Joakim Hernberg <jhernberg(a)alchemy.lu> wrote:
I'm using USB as my laptop has no FW inteface. FWIW, I use an X32 to record my band. It does
come with both FW and
class compliant USB interface, and I regularly record 32 channels
from it using jack/linux.
Is this using USB or FireWire?
3318
days inactive
3320
days old
linux-audio-user@lists.linuxaudio.org
19 comments
9 participants
participants (9)
-
David Santamauro -
Felix Homann -
Fons Adriaensen -
Joakim Hernberg -
Joe Hartley -
Jostein Chr. Andersen -
Len Ovens -
Paul Davis -
Steve Downes