10 Feb
2013
10 Feb
'13
12:17 p.m.
On 02/10/2013 01:59 AM, gerald.mwangi(a)gmx.de wrote:
hi gerald!
<strong disagreement next 5 miles, and likely some alligators crossing>
What sucks: the workflow does not feel organic! Can
you say that
bringing down an idea alone with multiple instruments (sequentially
recording all instruments, including synths) to disk is as easy as
recording it with a band on an 8track machine? No!
as someone who has done his share of 8track reel-to-reel recording:
BWAHAHAHAHAAAHAAAA.
compare:
* clean and degauss tape heads
* find some empty tape (at something like 90 € per half hour)
* thread the tape
* lay down test tones
* (optional) wrestle with your noise reduction
* level, arm, roll
to:
* start jack
* start ardour with 8-track template
* level, arm, roll
when it comes to editing and mixing, the whole comparison becomes
ridiculously unbalanced. and i'm not even talking sound quality yet.
and if you want to include the setup and configuration of a bare-bones
machine, then please also include the soldering iron and oscilloscope :)
don't get me wrong, gerald, this isn't meant as personal criticism, and
your input is certainly appreciated, but this statement just doesn't
hold water.
And just saying that
it is not possible with other OS's is no excuse. The linux audio
experience has to feel like just picking up an instrument (complex
synths included) and a band to jam in the idea.
<snip>
But, and this a big but: as I don't need nor want
documentation to get a
tone out of my guitar/ my voice, I don't want documentation to handle
linux audio!
dude. you have practised your guitar for years. at some point, that
surely involved reading documentation, or at least very thorough and
systematic exploration on your part.
if you were to claim that guitars are needlessly complex and you are
entitled to just grab one and go, hard-working guitarists would be
rightfully offended and laugh at you.
a studio workflow is no different. it takes practice and respect to
master. why does everybody and their grandma just assume that when they
suck at recording, it must be the studio's fault? that is kind of
offending to hard-working recording engineers. ;)
The whole ecosystem has to be integrated and simple to
be
operated at the ease of a few clicks with no prior knowledge! To the
same extent as it is open to all.
no. no. no. i don't want to be limited to a three-stringed guitar
because people can only count "one, two, many".
stuff that works without prior knowledge or some will to study is
usually boring, and ineffective. it's cool for a week, and then you
outgrow it.
now i'm all ears when it comes to discussing workflow and how to
streamline stuff - after all, professional studio work is all about
workflow. but i don't like blanket statements that threaten to make
software too simplistic for more demanding work.
best,
jörn
--
Jörn Nettingsmeier
Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487
Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio)
Tonmeister VDT
http://stackingdwarves.net
10 Feb
10 Feb
1:06 p.m.
New subject: So what do you think sucks about Linux audio ?
On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 12:17:34PM +0100, Jörn Nettingsmeier wrote:
and if you want to include the setup and configuration
of a
bare-bones machine, then please also include the soldering iron and
oscilloscope :)
And a calibrated test tape and lots of time. I remember aligning
24-track machines. It's done after everyone's gone to the bar or
diner and you're left alone to get you studio ready for the next
day, hoping to get some sleep before it starts. It's no fun,
certainly not compared to recording or mixing some nice music.
stuff that works without prior knowledge or some will
to study is
usually boring, and ineffective. it's cool for a week, and then you
outgrow it.
Assuming you grow, or want to.
Ciao,
--
FA
A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia.
It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris
and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)
2:38 p.m.
New subject: So what do you think sucks about Linux audio ?
On Sun, 2013-02-10 at 12:17 +0100, Jörn Nettingsmeier wrote:
Jörn, you seemingly don't care about a wide spread variety of humans
with completely different traits, abilities and weaknesses.
On 02/10/2013 01:59 AM, gerald.mwangi(a)gmx.de wrote:
hi gerald!
<strong disagreement next 5 miles, and likely some alligators crossing>
It does at least hold water for naive musicians. They buy a 8 track
machine and a tape. To thread the tape is a real manually event, so they
understand how to do it. They don't need to set up and to use a Computer
with Linux (or any other OS), no need to learn anything, to handle any
issues.
Cleaning and degaussing indeed is a PITA. Fortunately I can't remember
when I last time used my demagnetizing device to degauss heads.
Noise reduction quality and sound quality depend to calibration,
something that usually can't be done at home and it only will fit to one
spread of one type of tape from one vendor. If the calibration is ok,
the sound isn't less good than a digital recording.
Usually you can't use the tape directly, but you have to record SMPTE
first. However, for some musicians a 8-track analog tape recorder or any
very simple _digital_ HD recorder is much, much easier to use than a
computer.
What sucks: the workflow does not feel organic!
Can you say that
bringing down an idea alone with multiple instruments (sequentially
recording all instruments, including synths) to disk is as easy as
recording it with a band on an 8track machine? No!
as someone who has done his share of 8track reel-to-reel recording:
BWAHAHAHAHAAAHAAAA.
compare:
* clean and degauss tape heads
* find some empty tape (at something like 90 € per half hour)
* thread the tape
* lay down test tones
* (optional) wrestle with your noise reduction
* level, arm, roll
to:
* start jack
* start ardour with 8-track template
* level, arm, roll
when it comes to editing and mixing, the whole comparison becomes
ridiculously unbalanced. and i'm not even talking sound quality yet.
and if you want to include the setup and configuration of a bare-bones
machine, then please also include the soldering iron and oscilloscope :)
don't get me wrong, gerald, this isn't meant as personal criticism, and
your input is certainly appreciated, but this statement just doesn't
hold water. And just
saying that
it is not possible with other OS's is no excuse. The linux audio
experience has to feel like just picking up an instrument (complex
synths included) and a band to jam in the idea.
<snip>
But, and this a big but: as I don't need nor
want documentation to get a
tone out of my guitar/ my voice, I don't want documentation to handle
linux audio!
dude. you have practised your guitar for years. at some point, that
surely involved reading documentation, or at least very thorough and
systematic exploration on your part.
if you were to claim that guitars are needlessly complex and you are
entitled to just grab one and go, hard-working guitarists would be
rightfully offended and laugh at you. a studio workflow is no different. it takes practice
and respect to
master. why does everybody and their grandma just assume that when they
suck at recording, it must be the studio's fault? that is kind of
offending to hard-working recording engineers. ;)
A guitar player don't need to be able to build a guitar. A hobby audio
engineer don't need to know how the gear does work, assumed the hobby
engineer does use stand alone devices and isn't interested in
maintaining the gear, because sound quality isn't that important.
Using Linux, keeping the workflow can become a PITA, just by updating
the DE ;), there are no updates for a 8 track analog recorder.
IMO the issue is "stand alone" vs "computer".
Regards,
Ralf
The whole ecosystem has to be integrated and
simple to be
operated at the ease of a few clicks with no prior knowledge! To the
same extent as it is open to all.
no. no. no. i don't want to be limited to a three-stringed guitar
because people can only count "one, two, many".
stuff that works without prior knowledge or some will to study is
usually boring, and ineffective. it's cool for a week, and then you
outgrow it.
now i'm all ears when it comes to discussing workflow and how to
streamline stuff - after all, professional studio work is all about
workflow. but i don't like blanket statements that threaten to make
software too simplistic for more demanding work. 
11 Feb
11 Feb
10:55 a.m.
New subject: So what do you think sucks about Linux audio ?
On 02/10/2013 02:37 PM, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
On Sun, 2013-02-10 at 12:17 +0100, Jörn Nettingsmeier
wrote:
Jörn, you seemingly don't care about a wide spread variety of humans
with completely different traits, abilities and weaknesses.
Hi, Thumbs up for this reply. And I finally found the "plain text"
Button, oh stupid me ;-)
Although I said before, I'm a PhD student and a SW Dev in computer
vision (for those interested:
http://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/charon-suite,
http://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/charon-suite/wiki/Developer-Update), I
deliberately switch to "user-mode" turning off all my dev-knowledge to
think about the problems of Linux audio from a (hopefully) radical
different point of view.
I'm an avid guitar player for 20 years now, but my first aha experience
was approx 10 min after holding the instrument in my hands for the first
time in my life: my first 2 finger power-accord. After 30 min I had a
rough version of smoke on the water (tr,tr,trrr,..,tr,tr,t,trrr).
Hell I've got that in mind as if it was yesterday.
And I didn't need a manual for that.
I have deep respect for all that you, the linux audio devs have
achieved. It's just that sometimes I wish that I could approach linux
audio with the naiveness and intuition of a kid, and still get those
impressive results I get now.
If my ideas seem childish, non professional, let me know, so I wont bug
you anymore
Ciao,
Gerald
On 02/10/2013 01:59 AM, gerald.mwangi(a)gmx.de
wrote:
hi gerald!
<strong disagreement next 5 miles, and likely some alligators crossing>
It does at least hold water for naive musicians. They buy a 8 track
machine and a tape. To thread the tape is a real manually event, so they
understand how to do it. They don't need to set up and to use a Computer
with Linux (or any other OS), no need to learn anything, to handle any
issues.
Cleaning and degaussing indeed is a PITA. Fortunately I can't remember
when I last time used my demagnetizing device to degauss heads.
Noise reduction quality and sound quality depend to calibration,
something that usually can't be done at home and it only will fit to one
spread of one type of tape from one vendor. If the calibration is ok,
the sound isn't less good than a digital recording.
Usually you can't use the tape directly, but you have to record SMPTE
first. However, for some musicians a 8-track analog tape recorder or any
very simple _digital_ HD recorder is much, much easier to use than a
computer.
What sucks: the workflow does not feel organic!
Can you say that
bringing down an idea alone with multiple instruments (sequentially
recording all instruments, including synths) to disk is as easy as
recording it with a band on an 8track machine? No!
as someone who has done his share of 8track reel-to-reel recording:
BWAHAHAHAHAAAHAAAA.
compare:
* clean and degauss tape heads
* find some empty tape (at something like 90 € per half hour)
* thread the tape
* lay down test tones
* (optional) wrestle with your noise reduction
* level, arm, roll
to:
* start jack
* start ardour with 8-track template
* level, arm, roll
when it comes to editing and mixing, the whole comparison becomes
ridiculously unbalanced. and i'm not even talking sound quality yet.
and if you want to include the setup and configuration of a bare-bones
machine, then please also include the soldering iron and oscilloscope :)
don't get me wrong, gerald, this isn't meant as personal criticism, and
your input is certainly appreciated, but this statement just doesn't
hold water. And just
saying that
it is not possible with other OS's is no excuse. The linux audio
experience has to feel like just picking up an instrument (complex
synths included) and a band to jam in the idea.
<snip>
But, and this a big but: as I don't need nor
want documentation to get a
tone out of my guitar/ my voice, I don't want documentation to handle
linux audio!
dude. you have practised your guitar for years. at some point, that
surely involved reading documentation, or at least very thorough and
systematic exploration on your part.
if you were to claim that guitars are needlessly complex and you are
entitled to just grab one and go, hard-working guitarists would be
rightfully offended and laugh at you. a studio workflow is no different. it takes
practice and respect to
master. why does everybody and their grandma just assume that when they
suck at recording, it must be the studio's fault? that is kind of
offending to hard-working recording engineers. ;)
A guitar player don't need to be able to build a guitar. A hobby audio
engineer don't need to know how the gear does work, assumed the hobby
engineer does use stand alone devices and isn't interested in
maintaining the gear, because sound quality isn't that important.
Using Linux, keeping the workflow can become a PITA, just by updating
the DE ;), there are no updates for a 8 track analog recorder.
IMO the issue is "stand alone" vs "computer".
Regards,
Ralf
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-user mailing list
Linux-audio-user(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-user
The whole ecosystem has to be integrated and
simple to be
operated at the ease of a few clicks with no prior knowledge! To the
same extent as it is open to all.
no. no. no. i don't want to be limited to a three-stringed guitar
because people can only count "one, two, many".
stuff that works without prior knowledge or some will to study is
usually boring, and ineffective. it's cool for a week, and then you
outgrow it.
now i'm all ears when it comes to discussing workflow and how to
streamline stuff - after all, professional studio work is all about
workflow. but i don't like blanket statements that threaten to make
software too simplistic for more demanding work.
4239
days inactive
4240
days old
linux-audio-user@lists.linuxaudio.org
3 comments
4 participants
participants (4)
-
Fons Adriaensen -
Gerald Mwangi -
Jörn Nettingsmeier -
Ralf Mardorf