15 Jan
2014
15 Jan
'14
10:13 p.m.
Hello LAD/LAU members:
I teach introduction to western music courses at a local
community college, and one thing I have to deal with is
students cheating by using a smart phone during the
exam. Sure, I am in the room and occasionally walk
down the aisles, but these enterprising students are still
often able to hide a smart phone from me.
The way these smart phone cheaters are usually caught
is when answering an essay question, they usually
look up the topic on Wikipedia and copy word for word
several sentences.
On these exams, there are a few audio identifications,
and recently one student did a surprising thing.
The audio example was from Pierrot Lunaire, and not only did
answer the question by writing down the title and composer but
she ALSO WROTE DOWN the title and composer of a track by Webern
which was on the original CD that I ripped the Schoenberg
from.
To summarize, from an mp3/ogg file that was put on-line
of one track from a CD, the student was able to identify
_other_ tracks from the CD that were not put on-line.
How did the student do this? Here are links to the two sound
files that the students had access to:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/66qkorouak19gpu/07_20th-pilu_p03_15-18.mp3
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z17qoxey9ju4lei/07_20th-pilu_p03_15-18.ogg
Are there some tags embedded in these files? How would I
be able to see these tags myself?
If there are no embedded tags, how did this student obtain
this information?
Thanks; Ivan
15 Jan
15 Jan
10:17 p.m.
I did not mean to send HTML. Here is a plain text version.
Hello LAD/LAU members:
I teach introduction to western music courses at a local
community college, and one thing I have to deal with is
students cheating by using a smart phone during the
exam. Sure, I am in the room and occasionally walk
down the aisles, but these enterprising students are still
often able to hide a smart phone from me.
The way these smart phone cheaters are usually caught
is when answering an essay question, they usually
look up the topic on Wikipedia and copy word for word
several sentences.
On these exams, there are a few audio identifications,
and recently one student did a surprising thing.
The audio example was from Pierrot Lunaire, and not only did
answer the question by writing down the title and composer but
she ALSO WROTE DOWN the title and composer of a track by Webern
which was on the original CD that I ripped the Schoenberg
from.
To summarize, from an mp3/ogg file that was put on-line
of one track from a CD, the student was able to identify
_other_ tracks from the CD that were not put on-line.
How did the student do this? Here are links to the two sound
files that the students had access to:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/66qkorouak19gpu/07_20th-pilu_p03_15-18.mp3
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z17qoxey9ju4lei/07_20th-pilu_p03_15-18.ogg
Are there some tags embedded in these files? How would I
be able to see these tags myself?
If there are no embedded tags, how did this student obtain
this information?
Thanks; Ivan
10:29 p.m.
On Wed, 15 Jan 2014 13:17:50 -0800 (PST)
Ivan K <ivan_521521(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
I did not mean to send HTML. Here is a plain text version.
Hello LAD/LAU members:
I teach introduction to western music courses at a local
community college, and one thing I have to deal with is
students cheating by using a smart phone during the
exam. Sure, I am in the room and occasionally walk
down the aisles, but these enterprising students are still
often able to hide a smart phone from me.
The way these smart phone cheaters are usually caught
is when answering an essay question, they usually
look up the topic on Wikipedia and copy word for word
several sentences.
On these exams, there are a few audio identifications,
and recently one student did a surprising thing.
The audio example was from Pierrot Lunaire, and not only did
answer the question by writing down the title and composer but
she ALSO WROTE DOWN the title and composer of a track by Webern
which was on the original CD that I ripped the Schoenberg
from.
To summarize, from an mp3/ogg file that was put on-line
of one track from a CD, the student was able to identify
_other_ tracks from the CD that were not put on-line.
How did the student do this? Here are links to the two sound
files that the students had access to:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/66qkorouak19gpu/07_20th-pilu_p03_15-18.mp3
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z17qoxey9ju4lei/07_20th-pilu_p03_15-18.ogg
Are there some tags embedded in these files? How would I
be able to see these tags myself?
If there are no embedded tags, how did this student obtain
this information?
Thanks; Ivan
There are on-line resources that can identify a reasonable fragment of music,
and return plenty of information about it. She obviously knew this!
--
Will J Godfrey
http://www.musically.me.uk
Say you have a poem and I have a tune.
Exchange them and we can both have a poem, a tune, and a song.
10:35 p.m.
On Wed, 15 Jan 2014 13:13:07 -0800 (PST)
Ivan K <ivan_521521(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
Are there some tags embedded in these files? How
would I
be able to see these tags myself?
If there are no embedded tags, how did this student obtain
this information?
I don't see anything that jumps out as a recognizable tag in either file
but all I did was to run "strings" against it.
There are apps like Shazam or SoundHound that can identify a piece of
music by listening to it. I can see an app giving a false ID, or multiple
choices if it's not sure, or a database at the back end having incorrect
information and offering both tracks up, especially if it's built off
of album track listings.
--
======================================================================
Joe Hartley - UNIX/network Consultant - jh(a)brainiac.com
Without deviation from the norm, "progress" is not possible. - FZappa
16 Jan
16 Jan
2:32 p.m.
On Wed, 15 Jan 2014 13:13:07 -0800 (PST)
Ivan K <ivan_521521(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
Hello LAD/LAU members:
I teach introduction to western music courses at a local
community college, and one thing I have to deal with is
students cheating by using a smart phone during the
exam. Sure, I am in the room and occasionally walk
down the aisles, but these enterprising students are still
often able to hide a smart phone from me.
The way these smart phone cheaters are usually caught
is when answering an essay question, they usually
look up the topic on Wikipedia and copy word for word
several sentences.
On these exams, there are a few audio identifications,
and recently one student did a surprising thing.
The audio example was from Pierrot Lunaire, and not only did
answer the question by writing down the title and composer but
she ALSO WROTE DOWN the title and composer of a track by Webern
which was on the original CD that I ripped the Schoenberg
from.
To summarize, from an mp3/ogg file that was put on-line
of one track from a CD, the student was able to identify
_other_ tracks from the CD that were not put on-line.
How did the student do this? Here are links to the two sound
files that the students had access to:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/66qkorouak19gpu/07_20th-pilu_p03_15-18.mp3
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z17qoxey9ju4lei/07_20th-pilu_p03_15-18.ogg
Are there some tags embedded in these files? How would I
be able to see these tags myself?
If there are no embedded tags, how did this student obtain
this information?
Thanks; Ivan
Another possibility:
There is also the possibility that the student was not cheating.
True, given the information you provided it seems unlikely, and you may
have additional indicators, but I'd simply ask her why she wrote down
that other track.
In my humble opinion, you won't ged rid of smartphone cheats unless you
use a different mode of examination. It just shows that factoid
checking is an anachronism.
Regards,
Philipp
--
JID: murks(a)jit.si
3:41 p.m.
Ivan K <ivan_521521(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
To summarize, from an mp3/ogg file that was put
on-line
of one track from a CD, the student was able to identify
_other_ tracks from the CD that were not put on-line.
The Shazam app for iphone will do this pretty easily if the audio is
being played out loud. It works even in pretty poor listening
environments, such as loud restaurants. In a quiet exam room it should
have no trouble :)
Thanks,
Bill Gribble
18 Jan
18 Jan
12:19 p.m.
On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 09:41:28AM -0500, Bill Gribble wrote:
Ivan K <ivan_521521(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
Wow! Why are students even allowed smart phones at an exam?
--
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the
oppressing." --- Malcolm X
To summarize, from an mp3/ogg file that was put
on-line
of one track from a CD, the student was able to identify
_other_ tracks from the CD that were not put on-line.
The Shazam app for iphone will do this pretty easily if the audio is
being played out loud. It works even in pretty poor listening
environments, such as loud restaurants. In a quiet exam room it should
have no trouble :) 
2:28 p.m.
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On 18.01.2014 12:19, Chris Bannister wrote:
Wow! Why are students even allowed smart phones at an
exam?
It's even in the name: SMART phones. If they are allowed you basically
test the intelligence of the phone and not of the student ;D
Flo
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2:56 p.m.
On 18 January 2014 13:28, Florian Paul Schmidt <mista.tapas(a)gmx.net> wrote:
It's even in the name: SMART phones. If they are
allowed you basically
test the intelligence of the phone and not of the student ;D
Hahaha .. smart phones are not intelligent! Reminds of a quote from
Steve Grand (Creation) -
"Here’s a thought experiment; take one super, hyper intelligent, chess
computer like Deep Blue, say, and take one domestic rabbit - this is
what happens when you ask a rabbit to play chess. They’re not very
good at it. The Queen’s opening gambit gets them every time. So on
that basis, chess computers are far more intelligent than rabbits but
if you swap the experiment around and try throwing them both into a
bucket of water, it strikes me that the one who's really the most
intelligent is the one who figures out how not to drown. Now I’ve
tried this experiment loads of times now and chess computers just
don’t get it - it’s cost me a fortune. "
It's no different to the fact that in my high school maths exams we
were allowed to use calculators. Intelligence is not knowledge, it is
the *application* of knowledge. If the exam requires no intelligence,
it's not a very good exam!
2c
Best wishes,
Neil
--
Neil C Smith
Artist : Technologist : Adviser
http://neilcsmith.net
Praxis LIVE - open-source intermedia development - www.praxislive.org
Digital Prisoners - interactive spaces and projections -
www.digitalprisoners.co.uk
OpenEye - the web, managed - www.openeye.info
3:14 p.m.
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On 18.01.2014 14:55, Neil C Smith wrote:
On 18 January 2014 13:28, Florian Paul Schmidt
<mista.tapas(a)gmx.net> wrote:
Yeah, I was just making a pun. Forgive me :D
Flo
It's even in the name: SMART phones. If they
are allowed you
basically test the intelligence of the phone and not of the
student ;D
Hahaha .. smart phones are not intelligent! Reminds of a quote
from Steve Grand (Creation) -
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7:24 p.m.
On Saturday 18 January 2014 12:58:06 Neil C Smith did opine:
And exams so written, were in fact not written by truly intelligent people,
who know the difference. I don't think its unreasonable to expect the test
composer to have an IQ 50 points higher than the student either. If he
runs into a student whose IQ beats his/hers, he/she _will_ know it very
quickly. If he/she gets pushed to compose problems which push the gifted
student even further, then they are both enriched mentally by that effort.
I'm sorry if that reflects poorly on the composer of that particular exam,
but what you want, is not to test the memory of the test taker, but to test
their powers of deduction. It can be a fine line. Calculators, since they
are so refined for a $20 bill these days, I would allow, but would take
extreme pains to present the problem in a manner that is not directly
translatable to the order of button pushes needed to solve the problem.
That's just handing them the answer. Shame on the test composer.
I learned to do square roots on paper, probably something over 70 years
ago, but today I'd have to use a calculator AND the answer would have to
make sense (based on a basic idea of what it should be, gained from that
experience) before I'd write it down verbatim today. Same with trig or
either form of log (log10, logE)functions.
Cheers, Gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
Required reading:
<http://culturalslagheap.wordpress.com/2014/01/12/elemental/>
<lux> if macOS is for the computer illiterate, then windoze is for the
computer masochists
A pen in the hand of this president is far more
dangerous than 200 million guns in the hands of
law-abiding citizens.
On 18 January 2014 13:28, Florian Paul Schmidt
<mista.tapas(a)gmx.net>
wrote:
It's even
in the name: SMART phones. If they are allowed you basically
test the intelligence of the phone and not of the student ;D
Hahaha .. smart phones are not intelligent! Reminds of a quote from
Steve Grand (Creation) -
"Here’s a thought experiment; take one super, hyper intelligent, chess
computer like Deep Blue, say, and take one domestic rabbit - this is
what happens when you ask a rabbit to play chess. They’re not very
good at it. The Queen’s opening gambit gets them every time. So on
that basis, chess computers are far more intelligent than rabbits but
if you swap the experiment around and try throwing them both into a
bucket of water, it strikes me that the one who's really the most
intelligent is the one who figures out how not to drown. Now I’ve
tried this experiment loads of times now and chess computers just
don’t get it - it’s cost me a fortune. "
It's no different to the fact that in my high school maths exams we
were allowed to use calculators. Intelligence is not knowledge, it is
the *application* of knowledge. If the exam requires no intelligence,
it's not a very good exam!
2c
Best wishes,
Neil 
10:48 p.m.
On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 01:24:22PM -0500, Gene Heskett wrote:
I'm sorry if that reflects poorly on the composer
of that particular exam,
but what you want, is not to test the memory of the test taker, but to test
their powers of deduction.
Even so, students taking a course on the history of Western classical
music should be able to identify Pierrot Lunaire without requiring
internet resources. More so if during the course they had the opportunity
to hear it. And I don't agree with the idea that knowledge (as opposed to
the application of it) is a thing of the past. If I had to look up every
equation I use on Wikipedia I'd consider myself to be a very lousy DSP
programmer.
I learned to do square roots on paper, probably
something over 70 years
ago, but today I'd have to use a calculator AND the answer would have to
make sense
You'd be surprised to know the percentage of people that would
accept *any* result from a calculator, even if it doesn't make
sense at all.
When I was in high school most math or physics teachers would
accept an error in the calculations for an exam problem if the
logic of the solution was right. But I had one who didn't. His
reasoning was that if you make a stupid calculation error as an
engineer, the result would be as useless as if you didn't grasp
the problem at all. The bridge would collapse or the airplane
would fall out of the sky. And he was right. Remember the 10^8
dollar NASA Mars probe that got lost because JPL was using
imperial units while NASA expected metric ones ?
Ciao,
--
FA
A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia.
It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris
and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)
11:29 p.m.
On Saturday 18 January 2014 17:16:38 Fons Adriaensen did opine:
Scary isn't it?
On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 01:24:22PM -0500, Gene Heskett
wrote:
That sort of musical knowledge is definitely out of my field of relative
expertise. Above my pay grade IOW. :)
I'm sorry if that reflects poorly on the
composer of that particular
exam, but what you want, is not to test the memory of the test taker,
but to test their powers of deduction.
Even so, students taking a course on the history of Western classical
music should be able to identify Pierrot Lunaire without requiring
internet resources. More so if during the course they had the
opportunity to hear it. And I don't agree with the idea that knowledge
(as opposed to the application of it) is a thing of the past. If I had
to look up every equation I use on Wikipedia I'd consider myself to be
a very lousy DSP programmer.
That may reflect on the diffs in our ages as much as anything else, Fons.
Approaching 80 yo, I'd probably make a lousy DSP programmer.
I learned to
do square roots on paper, probably something over 70
years ago, but today I'd have to use a calculator AND the answer
would have to make sense
You'd be surprised to know the percentage of people that would
accept *any* result from a calculator, even if it doesn't make
sense at all. When I was in high school most math or physics
teachers would
accept an error in the calculations for an exam problem if the
logic of the solution was right. But I had one who didn't. His
reasoning was that if you make a stupid calculation error as an
engineer, the result would be as useless as if you didn't grasp
the problem at all. The bridge would collapse or the airplane
would fall out of the sky. And he was right. Remember the 10^8
dollar NASA Mars probe that got lost because JPL was using
imperial units while NASA expected metric ones ?
Yes, the ultimate forehead slapper, a 100 Billion dollar one. But nobody's
head was paraded around on a pike over it either. That is almost as sad.
Only we, the taxpayer paid for JPL's mistake AFAIK. It should have been
common knowledge that the biggest contributor to JPL's payroll had been
mandating metric units for decades when that little "forehead slapper"
occurred.
Ciao,
Cheers Fons, Gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
Required reading:
<http://culturalslagheap.wordpress.com/2014/01/12/elemental/>
Stult's Report:
Our problems are mostly behind us. What we have to do now is
fight the solutions.
A pen in the hand of this president is far more
dangerous than 200 million guns in the hands of
law-abiding citizens.
19 Jan
19 Jan
12:42 a.m.
On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 05:29:16PM -0500, Gene Heskett wrote:
It should have been
common knowledge that the biggest contributor to JPL's payroll had been
mandating metric units for decades when that little "forehead slapper"
occurred.
No just common knowledge. In the space business you can't create
even the most trivial piece of hardware, software, or process
without having an Interface Control Document for it. And those
ICDs are reviewed. Yet the interface between JPL and NASA was
apparently 'undefined'...
Ciao,
--
FA
A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia.
It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris
and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)
12:59 a.m.
On Saturday 18 January 2014 18:53:25 Fons Adriaensen did opine:
On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 05:29:16PM -0500, Gene Heskett
wrote:
Having visited the JPL site, admittedly in the 1959 time frame, I came away
with the impression they had some phenomenally long noses to look down to
see normal people. They were a force to be reckoned with at the time since
we were in the middle of building a bird to give John Glenn his first ride.
That and a "damn the torpedo's, all ahead flank to the engine room"
attitude.
Cheers, Gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
Required reading:
<http://culturalslagheap.wordpress.com/2014/01/12/elemental/>
If you suspect that this message may have been intercepted or amended,
please call the sender.
A pen in the hand of this president is far more
dangerous than 200 million guns in the hands of
law-abiding citizens.
It should have been
common knowledge that the biggest contributor to JPL's payroll had
been mandating metric units for decades when that little "forehead
slapper" occurred.
No just common knowledge. In the space business you can't create
even the most trivial piece of hardware, software, or process
without having an Interface Control Document for it. And those
ICDs are reviewed. Yet the interface between JPL and NASA was
apparently 'undefined'...
Ciao, 
18 Jan
18 Jan
11:37 p.m.
On Sat, 2014-01-18 at 21:48 +0000, Fons Adriaensen wrote:
Even so, students taking a course on the history of
Western classical
music should be able to identify Pierrot Lunaire without requiring
internet resources.
:)
When I was a teenager I loved Schönberg and I still like a lot of his
his music today, but you can't expect everybody to love the same things.
I illegal copied a CD of Pierrot Lunaire I lent from a library to a
consumer cassette recorder using Dolby C some years ago, when I already
was an adult.
I still own this recording, but don't own a recorder to play it :D.
No, you can't expect that the kids are aware of Pierrot Lunaire. C'mon
it's freakish music and the lyrics are sad :p.
Regards,
Weiße Wäscherin im Mondschein :p
11:50 p.m.
On Sat, 2014-01-18 at 23:37 +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
On Sat, 2014-01-18 at 21:48 +0000, Fons Adriaensen
wrote:
Pardon after using Google I'm aware of my mistake, it isn't the "weiße
Wäscherin", but the "blasse Wäscherin" ;).
Even so, students taking a course on the history
of Western classical
music should be able to identify Pierrot Lunaire without requiring
internet resources.
:)
When I was a teenager I loved Schönberg and I still like a lot of his
his music today, but you can't expect everybody to love the same things.
I illegal copied a CD of Pierrot Lunaire I lent from a library to a
consumer cassette recorder using Dolby C some years ago, when I already
was an adult.
I still own this recording, but don't own a recorder to play it :D.
No, you can't expect that the kids are aware of Pierrot Lunaire. C'mon
it's freakish music and the lyrics are sad :p.
Regards,
Weiße Wäscherin im Mondschein :p
19 Jan
19 Jan
12:05 a.m.
FWIW I prefer some jazz interpretations of Schönberg, e.g. by the Vienna
Art Orchestra and it's too funny, since I planned to do an old school
like hip hop song using samples of the Vienna Art Orchestra.
I was uncertain to do it, but now I'm less uncertain :), I at least
likely will cover the Vienna Art Orchestra instead of using samples.
3:09 p.m.
I learned to
do square roots on paper, probably something over 70 years
ago, but today I'd have to use a calculator AND the answer would have to
make sense
You'd be surprised to know the percentage of people that would
accept *any* result from a calculator, even if it doesn't make
sense at all.
When I was in high school most math or physics teachers would
accept an error in the calculations for an exam problem if the
logic of the solution was right. But I had one who didn't. His
reasoning was that if you make a stupid calculation error as an
engineer, the result would be as useless as if you didn't grasp
the problem at all. The bridge would collapse or the airplane
would fall out of the sky. And he was right. Remember the 10^8
dollar NASA Mars probe that got lost because JPL was using
imperial units while NASA expected metric ones ?
5:08 p.m.
On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 03:08:42PM +0100, tim wrote:
Do you think it was more likely a communications problem? e.g. a bigwig
protecting his interests dealing with his European counterpart by not
informing the appropriate "departments/sections" of all the details.
--
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the
oppressing." --- Malcolm X
would fall out
of the sky. And he was right. Remember the 10^8
dollar NASA Mars probe that got lost because JPL was using
imperial units while NASA expected metric ones ?
maybe the engineers payed too much attention on getting all the
computations right :)
errors happen, most of us are humans. the question is mainly how to
catch and avoid them: programming languages can easily do dimensional
analysis at compile-time if the dimensions are encoded into the type system. 
6:18 p.m.
New subject: OT: Pierrot Lunaire (was: Re: Exam Cheating investigation)
Sat, 18 Jan 2014 21:48:33 +0000,
Fons Adriaensen <fons(a)linuxaudio.org> a écrit :
On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 01:24:22PM -0500, Gene Heskett
wrote:
Pierrot Lunaire is indeed easy to identify; it's the best known
historical example of Sprechgesang, and even as a little boy I knew that
about Schönberg, without formal training in music. I'm 50, so it was
much easier at the time to be exposed to contemporary music (even on my
side of the Atlantic), simply because it was playing on public radios
and televisions. Now that mass medias are complete vassals of the
so-called "pop culture", and that most other styles of music are being
"specialized" and channelled, very few "normal" people are exposed
to such "elitist" bits of knowledge. It's the consequence of the
"evolution" of electronic mass-medias, from generalist radios and
televisions to the Internet, where everything is "monetized" with an
"app". I wondered what McLuhan would have said...
Anyway, to summarize: rap is the new Sprechgesang, rythmic and
monotone. I don't know much about it, and I would fail miserably at any
exam.
Ralf Mardorf <ralf.mardorf(a)alice-dsl.net> a écrit :
I'm sorry if that reflects poorly on the
composer of that
particular exam, but what you want, is not to test the memory of
the test taker, but to test their powers of deduction.
Even so, students taking a course on the history of Western classical
music should be able to identify Pierrot Lunaire without requiring
internet resources. More so if during the course they had the
opportunity to hear it. No, you can't expect that the kids are aware of
Pierrot Lunaire.
C'mon it's freakish music and the lyrics are sad :p.
There's a whole lot of sad music that kids enjoy.
FWIW I prefer some jazz interpretations of Schönberg,
e.g. by the
Vienna Art Orchestra and it's too funny, since I planned to do an old
school like hip hop song using samples of the Vienna Art Orchestra.
Is hip hop already "old school"? The excellent Vienna Art Orchestra
must be old school too, since it was funded in 1977... I hope to see
them again (last time was more than 10 years ago).
I was uncertain to do it, but now I'm less
uncertain :), I at least
likely will cover the Vienna Art Orchestra instead of using samples.
The sampling culture is dissolving general culture: I often ask people
to identify samples used in pop music; they usually can't, identifying
only the song using the sample, as music recognition services would
probably do (to be verified).
Culture, especially since the 90's, is an industrial activity based on
"artifical scarcity", and sampling is one of the method used to
monetize on the lack of general culture. That said, you can identify
samples years after hearing them for the first time.
--
Marc
8:27 p.m.
New subject: OT: Pierrot Lunaire (was: Re: Exam Cheating investigation)
On Sun, 2014-01-19 at 12:17 -0500, Marc Lavallée wrote:
I'm 50
and I'm 47. This is the point. When we were young and turned on the
radio at night they played Arnold Schönberg, Bill Laswell, ..., Vienna
Art Orchestra. Today they play Lady Gaga and the Black Eyed Peas, this
crap has nothing in common with music. The kids don't know music,
because people of your and my age make the play lists for the radio.
8:33 p.m.
New subject: OT: Pierrot Lunaire (was: Re: Exam Cheating investigation)
On Sun, 2014-01-19 at 20:27 +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
On Sun, 2014-01-19 at 12:17 -0500, Marc Lavallée
wrote:
PS: So we shouldn't ask what's wrong with the kids. The question should
be, what's wrong with the folks of our generation who decide what music
is played on the radio. Btw. Celtic Frost made a nice cover version of
Mexican Radio :).
I'm 50
and I'm 47. This is the point. When we were young and turned on the
radio at night they played Arnold Schönberg, Bill Laswell, ..., Vienna
Art Orchestra. Today they play Lady Gaga and the Black Eyed Peas, this
crap has nothing in common with music. The kids don't know music,
because people of your and my age make the play lists for the radio. 
9:08 p.m.
New subject: OT: Pierrot Lunaire (was: Re: Exam Cheating investigation)
On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 12:27 PM, Ralf Mardorf
<ralf.mardorf(a)alice-dsl.net> wrote:
On Sun, 2014-01-19 at 12:17 -0500, Marc Lavallée
wrote:
Huh?
Maybe they played Schoenberg where you live ... but I never heard of
this kind of stuff until much later in my life when I did some serious
musical studies. Maybe not serious enough ... I think that Schoenberg
and other of that ilk are no better than the rap you mentioned earlier
and are really just examples of folks showing how smart they (thing)
they are.
But, when I was growing up the radio featured the Everly Bros, Beatles, etc.
--
**** Listen to my FREE CD at http://www.mellowood.ca/music/cedars ****
Bob van der Poel ** Wynndel, British Columbia, CANADA **
EMAIL: bob(a)mellowood.ca
WWW: http://www.mellowood.ca
I'm 50
and I'm 47. This is the point. When we were young and turned on the
radio at night they played Arnold Schönberg, Bill Laswell, ..., Vienna
Art Orchestra. Today they play Lady Gaga and the Black Eyed Peas, this
crap has nothing in common with music. The kids don't know music,
because people of your and my age make the play lists for the radio.
9:15 p.m.
New subject: OT: Pierrot Lunaire (was: Re: Exam Cheating investigation)
On Sun, 2014-01-19 at 13:08 -0700, Bob van der Poel wrote:
On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 12:27 PM, Ralf Mardorf
<ralf.mardorf(a)alice-dsl.net> wrote:
The WDR, a German radio station, had a program called "Open House", when
I was around 14 years old they played all kinds of "less popular" music,
not at prime time, but during the night and the early morning. Btw. I
was and I'm still a fan of the Beatles :) and I love old school hip hop.
On Sun, 2014-01-19 at 12:17 -0500, Marc Lavallée
wrote:
Huh?
Maybe they played Schoenberg where you live ... but I never heard of
this kind of stuff until much later in my life when I did some serious
musical studies. Maybe not serious enough ... I think that Schoenberg
and other of that ilk are no better than the rap you mentioned earlier
and are really just examples of folks showing how smart they (thing)
they are.
But, when I was growing up the radio featured the Everly Bros, Beatles, etc. I'm 50
and I'm 47. This is the point. When we were young and turned on the
radio at night they played Arnold Schönberg, Bill Laswell, ..., Vienna
Art Orchestra. Today they play Lady Gaga and the Black Eyed Peas, this
crap has nothing in common with music. The kids don't know music,
because people of your and my age make the play lists for the radio.
9:32 p.m.
New subject: OT: Pierrot Lunaire (was: Re: Exam Cheating investigation)
On Sunday 19 January 2014 15:23:35 Ralf Mardorf did opine:
On Sun, 2014-01-19 at 13:08 -0700, Bob van der Poel
wrote:
The Everley Bros., one of which just passed a week or so back, did some
truly phenomenal work before you were a gleam in Daddies eye. I am sure
you can find some poorly recorded videos on youtube. They even had a tv
show, till they got into a spat, live on tv, and one of them walked off the
set, and they never sang together again. And the planet is musically
poorer because of it.
Cheers, Gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
Required reading:
<http://culturalslagheap.wordpress.com/2014/01/12/elemental/>
A guy has to get fresh once in a while so a girl doesn't lose her
confidence.
A pen in the hand of this president is far more
dangerous than 200 million guns in the hands of
law-abiding citizens.
On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 12:27 PM, Ralf Mardorf
<ralf.mardorf(a)alice-dsl.net> wrote:
The WDR, a German radio station, had a program called "Open House", when
I was around 14 years old they played all kinds of "less popular" music,
not at prime time, but during the night and the early morning. Btw. I
was and I'm still a fan of the Beatles :) and I love old school hip hop.
On Sun, 2014-01-19 at 12:17 -0500, Marc Lavallأ©e
wrote:
Huh?
Maybe they played Schoenberg where you live ... but I never heard of
this kind of stuff until much later in my life when I did some serious
musical studies. Maybe not serious enough ... I think that Schoenberg
and other of that ilk are no better than the rap you mentioned earlier
and are really just examples of folks showing how smart they (thing)
they are.
But, when I was growing up the radio featured the Everly Bros,
Beatles, etc. I'm 50
and I'm 47. This is the point. When we were young and turned on the
radio at night they played Arnold Schأ¶nberg, Bill Laswell, ...,
Vienna Art Orchestra. Today they play Lady Gaga and the Black Eyed
Peas, this crap has nothing in common with music. The kids don't
know music, because people of your and my age make the play lists
for the radio. 
20 Jan
20 Jan
10:57 a.m.
New subject: OT: Pierrot Lunaire (was: Re: Exam Cheating investigation)
On 19 January 2014 21:32, Gene Heskett <gheskett(a)wdtv.com> wrote:
The
Everley Bros., one of which just passed a week or so back, did some
truly phenomenal work before you were a gleam in Daddies eye. I am sure
you can find some poorly recorded videos on youtube. They even had a tv
show, till they got into a spat, live on tv, and one of them walked off the
set, and they never sang together again. And the planet is musically
poorer because of it.
Come now, the reunion was in 1983, get with the times already ;)
Arve
3:22 p.m.
New subject: OT: Pierrot Lunaire (was: Re: Exam Cheating investigation)
On Monday 20 January 2014 09:04:48 Arve Barsnes did opine:
On 19 January 2014 21:32, Gene Heskett
<gheskett(a)wdtv.com> wrote:
I knew there had been a re-union of sorts, but no more of their close
harmony was published that I am aware of. More of it would, IMO, sell well
even today. I of course know well that voices are fragile things, and by
1983, its possible the "magic" was gone. I quit our church choir about 10
years back when I no longer had the control to do the double-bass part my
voice is best at since about 1947. I was usually an octave below the bass
line in the hymnals. And I could have fun back in the day drowning out the
bass fellow of the Oakridge Boys when they were doing Elvira too. :)
Cheers, Gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
Required reading:
<http://culturalslagheap.wordpress.com/2014/01/12/elemental/>
I've enjoyed just about as much of this as I can stand.
A pen in the hand of this president is far more
dangerous than 200 million guns in the hands of
law-abiding citizens.
The Everley Bros., one of which just passed a
week or so back, did
some truly phenomenal work before you were a gleam in Daddies eye. I
am sure you can find some poorly recorded videos on youtube. They
even had a tv show, till they got into a spat, live on tv, and one of
them walked off the set, and they never sang together again. And the
planet is musically poorer because of it.
Come now, the reunion was in 1983, get with the times already ;)
Arve 
3:35 p.m.
New subject: OT: Pierrot Lunaire (was: Re: Exam Cheating investigation)
On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 9:21 AM, Gene Heskett <gheskett(a)wdtv.com> wrote:
I knew there had been a re-union of sorts, but no more
of their close
harmony was published that I am aware of. More of it would, IMO, sell well
even today.
You might waste a few minutes tracking the sales of "Foreverly", a recent
release from Billy Joe Armstong (lead singer of Green Day) and Norah Jones.
It is a bit redundant given the continued existence of the actual Everly
Brothers' recordings, but if you're into that sort of vocal harmony, it is
far from unpleasant.
5:01 p.m.
New subject: OT: Pierrot Lunaire (was: Re: Exam Cheating investigation)
On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 9:21 AM, Gene Heskett
<gheskett(a)wdtv.com> wrote:
I knew there had been a re-union of sorts, but no more of their close
harmony was published that I am aware of. More of it would, IMO, sell well
even today.
Sometime in the late '90s or early '00s, they toured with Simon and
Garfunkel. I attended the Auburn Hills, MI show, and can attest that the
magic was still there.
--
Rick Green
We, the People of the United States of America, reject the U.S. Supreme Court's
Citizens United ruling, and move to amend our Constitution to firmly establish
that money is not speech, and that human beings, not corporations, are persons
entitled to constitutional rights.
http://www.MoveToAmend.org
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-user mailing list
Linux-audio-user(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-user
5:14 p.m.
New subject: OT: Pierrot Lunaire (was: Re: Exam Cheating investigation)
On 20 January 2014 17:01, Rick Green <rtg(a)aapsc.com> wrote:
On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 9:21 AM, Gene Heskett
<gheskett(a)wdtv.com> wrote:
assume
can't have been all bad since there was more than one, and they
continued playing.
I knew there had been a re-union of sorts,
but no more of their
close
harmony was published that I am aware of. More of it would, IMO,
sell well
even today.
Sometime in the late '90s or early '00s, they toured with Simon and
Garfunkel. I attended the Auburn Hills, MI show, and can attest that the
magic was still there.
Also, they released several studio albums after the re-union, which I
5:24 p.m.
New subject: OT: Pierrot Lunaire (was: Re: Exam Cheating investigation)
On Monday 20 January 2014 11:23:39 Arve Barsnes did opine:
assume can't have been all bad since there was more than one, and they
continued playing.
Sounds like I need to dig thru the bins at Wallies the next time I am
there. Provided it has the CD logo on it, I'll buy it.
Cheers, Gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
Required reading:
<http://culturalslagheap.wordpress.com/2014/01/12/elemental/>
The bugs you have to avoid are the ones that give the user not only
the inclination to get on a plane, but also the time.
-- Kay Bostic
A pen in the hand of this president is far more
dangerous than 200 million guns in the hands of
law-abiding citizens.
On 20 January 2014 17:01, Rick Green
<rtg(a)aapsc.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 9:21 AM, Gene Heskett <gheskett(a)wdtv.com>
wrote:
I knew there had been a re-union of sorts, but
no more of their
close
harmony was published that I am aware of. More of it would,
IMO,
sell well
even today.
Sometime in the late '90s or early '00s, they toured with Simon and
Garfunkel. I attended the Auburn Hills, MI show, and can attest that
the magic was still there.
Also, they released several studio albums after the re-union, which I
5:23 p.m.
New subject: OT: Pierrot Lunaire (was: Re: Exam Cheating investigation)
On Monday 20 January 2014 11:17:51 Rick Green did opine:
Gosh, I would very much liked to have been there. Unforch, in those days,
I was busier than that famous cat, on the equally famous tin roof, keeping
a tv station on the air.
Cheers, Gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
Required reading:
<http://culturalslagheap.wordpress.com/2014/01/12/elemental/>
Do you think your mother and I should have lived comfortably so long
together if ever we had been married?
A pen in the hand of this president is far more
dangerous than 200 million guns in the hands of
law-abiding citizens.
> On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 9:21 AM, Gene Heskett
<gheskett(a)wdtv.com>
wrote:
I knew
there had been a re-union of sorts, but no more of their
close harmony was published that I am aware of. More of it
would, IMO, sell well even today.
Sometime in the late '90s or early '00s, they toured with Simon and
Garfunkel. I attended the Auburn Hills, MI show, and can attest that
the magic was still there. 
25 Feb
25 Feb
7:12 p.m.
New subject: OT: Pierrot Lunaire (was: Re: Exam Cheating investigation)
On Sun, 2014-01-19 at 12:17 -0500, Marc Lavallée wrote:
Pierrot Lunaire is indeed easy to identify
In the Internet I found a nice wallpaper for my Jwm desktop.
http://picpaste.com/pics/Pierrot_lunaire-Melodrama_von_Sch__nberg.-zdSoXgwa…
A few years later after Schönberg painted (IMO his music is better than
his paintings are), he perhaps would have painted in a similar way.
19 Jan
19 Jan
7:22 a.m.
On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 01:55:42PM +0000, Neil C Smith wrote:
On 18 January 2014 13:28, Florian Paul Schmidt
<mista.tapas(a)gmx.net> wrote:
The difference between "lettuce play chess" and "let us play chess"
can
make a considerable difference in this case.
--
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the
oppressing." --- Malcolm X
It's even in the name: SMART phones. If they
are allowed you basically
test the intelligence of the phone and not of the student ;D
Hahaha .. smart phones are not intelligent! Reminds of a quote from
Steve Grand (Creation) -
"Here’s a thought experiment; take one super, hyper intelligent, chess
computer like Deep Blue, say, and take one domestic rabbit - this is
what happens when you ask a rabbit to play chess. They’re not very
good at it. The Queen’s opening gambit gets them every time. 
9:41 p.m.
On Sun, 19 Jan 2014 19:22:01 +1300
Chris Bannister <cbannister(a)slingshot.co.nz> wrote:
On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 01:55:42PM +0000, Neil C Smith
wrote:
Oh well done that man!
--
Will J Godfrey
http://www.musically.me.uk
Say you have a poem and I have a tune.
Exchange them and we can both have a poem, a tune, and a song.
On 18 January 2014 13:28, Florian Paul Schmidt
<mista.tapas(a)gmx.net> wrote:
The difference between "lettuce play chess" and "let us play chess"
can
make a considerable difference in this case. It's even in the name: SMART phones. If they
are allowed you basically
test the intelligence of the phone and not of the student ;D
Hahaha .. smart phones are not intelligent! Reminds of a quote from
Steve Grand (Creation) -
"Here’s a thought experiment; take one super, hyper intelligent, chess
computer like Deep Blue, say, and take one domestic rabbit - this is
what happens when you ask a rabbit to play chess. They’re not very
good at it. The Queen’s opening gambit gets them every time. 
16 Jan
16 Jan
6:02 p.m.
On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 02:32:14PM +0100, Philipp Überbacher wrote:
On Wed, 15 Jan 2014 13:13:07 -0800 (PST)
Ivan K <ivan_521521(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
Or you could do your exams in a Faraday cage in the basement of the building.
-ken
Hello LAD/LAU members:
I teach introduction to western music courses at a local
community college, and one thing I have to deal with is
students cheating by using a smart phone during the
exam. Sure, I am in the room and occasionally walk
down the aisles, but these enterprising students are still
often able to hide a smart phone from me.
The way these smart phone cheaters are usually caught
is when answering an essay question, they usually
look up the topic on Wikipedia and copy word for word
several sentences.
On these exams, there are a few audio identifications,
and recently one student did a surprising thing.
The audio example was from Pierrot Lunaire, and not only did
answer the question by writing down the title and composer but
she ALSO WROTE DOWN the title and composer of a track by Webern
which was on the original CD that I ripped the Schoenberg
from.
To summarize, from an mp3/ogg file that was put on-line
of one track from a CD, the student was able to identify
_other_ tracks from the CD that were not put on-line.
How did the student do this? Here are links to the two sound
files that the students had access to:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/66qkorouak19gpu/07_20th-pilu_p03_15-18.mp3
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z17qoxey9ju4lei/07_20th-pilu_p03_15-18.ogg
Are there some tags embedded in these files? How would I
be able to see these tags myself?
If there are no embedded tags, how did this student obtain
this information?
Thanks; Ivan
Another possibility:
There is also the possibility that the student was not cheating.
True, given the information you provided it seems unlikely, and you may
have additional indicators, but I'd simply ask her why she wrote down
that other track.
In my humble opinion, you won't ged rid of smartphone cheats unless you
use a different mode of examination. It just shows that factoid
checking is an anachronism.
8:11 p.m.
On 01/16/2014 07:02 AM, Ken Restivo wrote:
On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 02:32:14PM +0100, Philipp
Überbacher wrote:
Or you could put in a cell phone jammer:
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=cell+phone+jammer
Or you could think out some way to resolve the problem that education
seeks to evaluate an individual on individual achievement while in the
business world you'll be expected to ask others for information and
answers, and work together to succeed as a team.
--
David
gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
http://dancingtreefrog.com
On Wed, 15 Jan 2014 13:13:07 -0800 (PST)
Ivan K <ivan_521521(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
Or you could do your exams in a Faraday cage in the basement of the building.
-ken Hello LAD/LAU members:
I teach introduction to western music courses at a local
community college, and one thing I have to deal with is
students cheating by using a smart phone during the
exam. Sure, I am in the room and occasionally walk
down the aisles, but these enterprising students are still
often able to hide a smart phone from me.
The way these smart phone cheaters are usually caught
is when answering an essay question, they usually
look up the topic on Wikipedia and copy word for word
several sentences.
On these exams, there are a few audio identifications,
and recently one student did a surprising thing.
The audio example was from Pierrot Lunaire, and not only did
answer the question by writing down the title and composer but
she ALSO WROTE DOWN the title and composer of a track by Webern
which was on the original CD that I ripped the Schoenberg
from.
To summarize, from an mp3/ogg file that was put on-line
of one track from a CD, the student was able to identify
_other_ tracks from the CD that were not put on-line.
How did the student do this? Here are links to the two sound
files that the students had access to:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/66qkorouak19gpu/07_20th-pilu_p03_15-18.mp3
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z17qoxey9ju4lei/07_20th-pilu_p03_15-18.ogg
Are there some tags embedded in these files? How would I
be able to see these tags myself?
If there are no embedded tags, how did this student obtain
this information?
Thanks; Ivan
Another possibility:
There is also the possibility that the student was not cheating.
True, given the information you provided it seems unlikely, and you may
have additional indicators, but I'd simply ask her why she wrote down
that other track.
In my humble opinion, you won't ged rid of smartphone cheats unless you
use a different mode of examination. It just shows that factoid
checking is an anachronism. 
17 Jan
17 Jan
10:32 p.m.
Cell phone jamming is illegal for the most part, I believe.
I suggest you redesign your testing and set different (i.e., positive
educational) goals for it.
In my experience good teachers usually know pretty well how students
individually and collectively are doing, as long as the classroom is
participative, not just a lecture.
You might use testing to see how the students are using what they have
learned to solve problems as they would in the real world.
Welcome smartphones to the process and give lots of credit for contributing
to the process. (You can use your own smartphone for that.)
Then you can publish articles about it and become a dean or vice president
and spend the rest of your career fund-raising. (No good deed unpunished
was probably invented in academia.)
Just kidding (mostly).
Pete
On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 11:11 AM, david <gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
On 01/16/2014 07:02 AM, Ken Restivo wrote:
On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 02:32:14PM +0100, Philipp
Überbacher wrote:
Or you could put in a cell phone jammer:
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=cell+phone+jammer
Or you could think out some way to resolve the problem that education
seeks to evaluate an individual on individual achievement while in the
business world you'll be expected to ask others for information and
answers, and work together to succeed as a team.
--
David
gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
http://dancingtreefrog.com
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-user mailing list
Linux-audio-user(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-user
On Wed, 15 Jan 2014 13:13:07 -0800 (PST)
Ivan K <ivan_521521(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
Hello LAD/LAU members:
Or you could do your exams in a Faraday cage in the basement of the
building.
-ken
I teach introduction to western music courses at a local
community college, and one thing I have to deal with is
students cheating by using a smart phone during the
exam. Sure, I am in the room and occasionally walk
down the aisles, but these enterprising students are still
often able to hide a smart phone from me.
The way these smart phone cheaters are usually caught
is when answering an essay question, they usually
look up the topic on Wikipedia and copy word for word
several sentences.
On these exams, there are a few audio identifications,
and recently one student did a surprising thing.
The audio example was from Pierrot Lunaire, and not only did
answer the question by writing down the title and composer but
she ALSO WROTE DOWN the title and composer of a track by Webern
which was on the original CD that I ripped the Schoenberg
from.
To summarize, from an mp3/ogg file that was put on-line
of one track from a CD, the student was able to identify
_other_ tracks from the CD that were not put on-line.
How did the student do this? Here are links to the two sound
files that the students had access to:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/66qkorouak19gpu/07_20th-pilu_p03_15-18.mp3
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z17qoxey9ju4lei/07_20th-pilu_p03_15-18.ogg
Are there some tags embedded in these files? How would I
be able to see these tags myself?
If there are no embedded tags, how did this student obtain
this information?
Thanks; Ivan
Another possibility:
There is also the possibility that the student was not cheating.
True, given the information you provided it seems unlikely, and you may
have additional indicators, but I'd simply ask her why she wrote down
that other track.
In my humble opinion, you won't ged rid of smartphone cheats unless you
use a different mode of examination. It just shows that factoid
checking is an anachronism.
3925
days inactive
3966
days old
linux-audio-user@lists.linuxaudio.org
39 comments
22 participants
participants (22)
-
Arve Barsnes -
Bill Gribble -
Bob van der Poel -
Chris Bannister -
david -
Florian Paul Schmidt -
Fons Adriaensen -
Gene Heskett -
Ivan K -
Joe Hartley -
Ken Restivo -
Marc Lavallée -
Neil C Smith -
Paul Davis -
Pete Wright -
Philipp Überbacher -
Ralf Mardorf -
Ralf Mardorf -
Rick Green -
tim -
Will Godfrey -
Wolfgang Woehl