25 Feb
2003
25 Feb
'03
2:43 p.m.
"Darren Landrum" <consul(a)studioconsul.net> wrote:
I would like to reiterate how much I like the sound
you got form the
drums. It sounds so natural, and quite perfect for the type of music
you're doing.
-- Darren
> Jan \Evil Twin\ Depner
> Anthony,
>
> I used two cheap (Marshall) overhead condenser mics for the
> drums (about 2 meters up and slighty back of the
> drummer) and a Shure SM57 on the kick.
One thing I wanted to point out (that they taught us in the recording
classes I took) was that in the (above) setup, it's important to put
the mics in a "cross pattern" (like an X). The heads of the mics need
to be 45 degrees apart from each other. If you don't then you can get
"phase cancellations". It has to do with the the amount of time it
takes sound to hit one mic and then the other. If the mics are _not_ at
a 45 degree position, then they can be close enough to cause one mic
to pick up the sound source and the other one to pick up the _same_
sound source (just milliseconds later). And when you have the same exact
sound being offsetted by only milliseconds, you get "phasing". In fact,
that exactly how you get the (guitar) effect they call "phasing".... by taking a
sound and offsetting the same sound by just a few milliseconds.
I think (if my memory serves me well) that the 45 degree angle isolates each mic to the
point were it can't pick up the same sound in each mic.
Actually, Jan may have some kind of knack for this thing, because we were taught that (the
tecnique jan used) was the way to go if you only have 3 mics - (two overhead and one for
the kick drum). In fact, I think Jan's choice to use condencers for overhead and sm57
on the kick is a good choice. But please trust me. If you don't do the cross pattern
you (could) hear unwanted sounds (and/or dropouts).
While I'm at it... that whole recording sounds great.
Rocco
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25 Feb
25 Feb
4:16 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Need help - hardware recommendations
On Tue, Feb 25, 2003 at 01:34:57PM -0500, linuxmedia4(a)netscape.net wrote:
One thing I wanted to point out (that they taught us
in the recording
classes I took) was that in the (above) setup, it's important to put
the mics in a "cross pattern" (like an X). The heads of the mics need
to be 45 degrees apart from each other. If you don't then you can get
"phase cancellations".
It's good to have a 45 degree angle, but I think you're getting a bit
confused here. To avoid phase cancellation, especially if/when the
result is mixed to mono (which you have to allow for in the profession
because the product's going to go out on AM radio etc.) you want the
mics *coincident* i.e. as close as possible, hence often crossed with
one above the other.
The 45 degree angle with a standard cardiod mics produces a forward
facing cardiod pattern in the mono mix and gets the optimum stereo
picture. Pointing further apart you get a hole in the middle and pointing
closer you just make it narrower.
But then there's ORTF where you put the mic heads apart and facing 120
degrees away from each other, which breaks all the above rules and yet
some people swear by it for gettin a room ambient right. But not for
drum kits, so I digress...
--
Anahata
anahata(a)treewind.co.uk -+- http://www.treewind.co.uk
Home: 01638 720444 Mob: 07976 263827
5:01 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Need help - hardware recommendations
On Tue, Feb 25, 2003 at 01:34:57PM -0500, linuxmedia4(a)netscape.net wrote:
One thing I wanted to point out (that they taught us
in the recording
classes I took) was that in the (above) setup, it's important to put
the mics in a "cross pattern" (like an X).
well, sometimes...
The heads of the mics need
to be 45 degrees apart from each other. If you don't then you can get
"phase cancellations".
I never went to recording classes, but ...
Phase cancellations have at least as much to do with mic position
as with mic angle. angling the mics is not a magic solution.
Most cardioid mics have plenty of pickup at 90 degrees.
It sounds like what you're describing is the classic "X/Y" stereo
mic technique, with a pair of cardioids placed so that
* The mics are angled 90 degrees relative to each other, and
45 degrees relative to "center"
* The mic heads are placed as close together as possible.
but there are other "classic" stereo techniques... mid-side,
spaced pair (usually omni), binaural...
you'll see plenty of top-tier engineers recording
drum kits with a pair of cardioid overheads over opposite
sides of the drum kit and pointed more or less parallel,
which would fit in the "spaced pair" category though most
often it seems cardioids are used instead of omni.
check the rec.audio.pro FAQ for more good info on stereo micing.
(and tons of other stuff.)
http://recordist.com/rap-faq/current
check questions 10.1 and 10.2.
and here's a great rambling usenet post about minimalist drum miking,
a lot of it targeted for rock recording but the basic ideas would apply
to lots of stuff:
http://www.mercenary.com/3micdrumstuf.html
and here's a great article about unorthodox drum recording tricks:
http://emusician.com/ar/emusic_underground_drum_sounds/
It has to do with the the amount of time it
takes sound to hit one mic and then the other.
right, that's why position is important.
But please trust me. If you don't do the cross
pattern you (could) hear unwanted sounds (and/or dropouts).
dropouts?? what on earth does mic technique have to do with dropouts?
--
Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
8 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Need help - hardware recommendations
Thanks. I have to admit, I got the mic idea from a recording magazine.
An engineer was saying that he only ever uses two overhead condenser
mics on drums and occasionally a mic on the kick. His point was that
drums are *an* instrument, not a collection of instruments and that you
should hear them that way. I thought that sounded pretty reasonable
(plus I only have the two condenser mics;). I guess if your drummer is
bad enough that you need to mic every drum/cymbal and try to fix it in
the mix you need to get a better drummer. I did have the mics set at
45. I had heard that somewhere as well. I can't recall where though.
Jan
On Tue, 2003-02-25 at 12:34, linuxmedia4(a)netscape.net wrote:
"Darren Landrum"
<consul(a)studioconsul.net> wrote:
I would like to reiterate how much I like the
sound you got form the
drums. It sounds so natural, and quite perfect for the type of music
you're doing.
-- Darren
> Jan \Evil Twin\ Depner
> Anthony,
>
> I used two cheap (Marshall) overhead condenser mics for the
> drums (about 2 meters up and slighty back of the
> drummer) and a Shure SM57 on the kick.
One thing I wanted to point out (that they taught us in the recording
classes I took) was that in the (above) setup, it's important to put
the mics in a "cross pattern" (like an X). The heads of the mics need
to be 45 degrees apart from each other. If you don't then you can get
"phase cancellations". It has to do with the the amount of time it
takes sound to hit one mic and then the other. If the mics are _not_ at
a 45 degree position, then they can be close enough to cause one mic
to pick up the sound source and the other one to pick up the _same_
sound source (just milliseconds later). And when you have the same exact
sound being offsetted by only milliseconds, you get "phasing". In fact,
that exactly how you get the (guitar) effect they call "phasing".... by taking
a sound and offsetting the same sound by just a few milliseconds.
I think (if my memory serves me well) that the 45 degree angle isolates each mic to the
point were it can't pick up the same sound in each mic.
Actually, Jan may have some kind of knack for this thing, because we were taught that
(the tecnique jan used) was the way to go if you only have 3 mics - (two overhead and one
for the kick drum). In fact, I think Jan's choice to use condencers for overhead and
sm57 on the kick is a good choice. But please trust me. If you don't do the cross
pattern you (could) hear unwanted sounds (and/or dropouts).
While I'm at it... that whole recording sounds great.
Rocco
__________________________________________________________________
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7948
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linux-audio-user@lists.linuxaudio.org
3 comments
4 participants
participants (4)
-
Anahata -
Jan "Evil Twin" Depner -
linuxmedia4＠netscape.net -
Paul Winkler