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Re: [LAD] [LAU] Just an information about the state of affairs - Re: forking (was Re: Aeolus)

by Ralf Mardorf

Didn't came through the lists. -------- Forwarded Message -------- From: Ralf Mardorf To: linux-audio-user(a)lists.linuxaudio.org, linux-audio-dev <linux-audio-dev(a)lists.linuxaudio.org> Subject: Re: [LAU] [LAD] Just an information about the state of affairs - Re: forking (was Re: Aeolus) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2013 11:37:48 +0200 On Sun, 2013-09-22 at 11:14 +0200, Felix Homann wrote: > Fons, I think you should still clarify your position on using your > code [snip] In this case I'm on Fons site. He explained it more than one time, so there isn't the need to repeat it again and again. There are several mails from Fons similar to the following, explaining his point of view. -------- Forwarded Message -------- From: Fons Adriaensen <fons(a)linuxaudio.org> To: J. Liles <malnourite(a)gmail.com> Cc: lad <linux-audio-dev(a)lists.linuxaudio.org> Subject: Re: [LAD] forking (was Re: Aeolus) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 21:28:39 +0000 On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 01:50:41PM -0700, J. Liles wrote: > On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 1:24 PM, Fons Adriaensen <fons(a)linuxaudio.org>wrote: > > > 'Convenient' is the key word here. Some people only think > > of what's 'convenient' to them, everything else is too much > > for their simple minds. > > > > > Fons, you have to admit that with comments like that, you're making it > rather hard for those of us trying to be on your side in this matter. You don't have to be 'on my side'. > Help me understand how this is an evolved, logical response, One of the designed-in qualities of Aeolus is that it respects, as much as is possible within the context of a software emulation, the traditions of organ building. Which are very conservative, anti-technology and whatever you want, like it or not. Any changes that violate that principle, no matter how convenient to the average user, destroy that quality and consequently harm my interests as an author. Maybe you find that difficult to understand, but that's how it is. Maybe the free software community fails to understand that, in which case I feel completely justified not to contribute to it.

11 years, 9 months

forking

by tom＠trellis.ch

hi there, i've read the aeolus / fork mails with interest and it seems like an outburst of opinions (which is good!). my view is a bit less of technical nature. i can't judge if code a is better or worse than b, i can only make out a difference in using it. that said, the broad field of users and their needs should be considered in this discussion. there are a few non-technical aspects that needs to be understood in order to tackle it more sensitively. -very talented people can lack (like others) the ability to communicate "well" with others, whatever that might mean -there are different kinds of "forks". to judge if it's a "bad" or a "good" fork one must look at it in a differentiated way -"bad" can be "good" for others and vice versa -Linux people are a minority concerning the OS in use. this group is further split to smaller partitions. There are many fundamentals that people use to differentiate themselves. the great benefits of the variety also have the "me cool gentoo - you stupid ubuntu" effect. looking at extreme "fork" cases to analyze the effects (*why* one does fork not listed here): -dude forks projext x from author y and makes a piece of crap out of it -author sees his work dragged to dirt, while still being mentioned as author -author sees his reputation at risk -dude forks project x from author y (a piece of crap) and makes butter out of it -author feels that dude thinks he knows everyting better -author might loose control if fork gains more interest than the original -dude forks project x from author y, changes some indendations, and put himself as main author -author feels like dude is using author's work to adorn himself with borrowed plumes wihtout added value -dude forks project x from author y, puts it to a public repository where it appears as the main project (and not as a fork) -author feels like dude is using author's work to adorn himself with borrowed plumes wihtout added value -dude forks project x from author y, makes commercially a fortune with it, without much changes -author feels like dude is making money of of author's work while author migh have no interest or success doing so facit: -anyone can do bad things if he/she just want's to bitch around -there are some unwritten / non-license-dependant gentleman's agreements how to fork and communicate -the art is to make use of the power that forks can offer -i think there are only few hostile forks out there my personal experience with forks is limited to basially two projects, one of which is ardour. i personally see it as a working prototype and a way to dive into the code base (and doing it wrong). there was never an issue with ardour's main author paul davis, he even gives hints (if the schedule allows it), knowing that many modifications are of questionable coding quailty or of no interest for him / ardour master. as a last word, we should not forget that doing forks in a sourcetree is by the word a natural thing to happen. <- my 1 cent cheers, thomas

11 years, 9 months

GPL under pressure

by Ralf Mardorf

My last words to and perhaps reading of the threads about the evil that someone forked a project from Fons, that was GPL'ed by Fons and nobody else. Nobody showed a violation of the GPL by Maurizio M. Gavioli, just a mistake he seemingly is willing to correct after I contacted him, something Fons could have done too. Humans tend to make mistakes. If Fons makes a mistake it's ok, if somebody else makes a mistake she/he is bad, should shut up, should stop forking a project, should be fired. Fons made a mistake, he chose the GPL, while he disagrees with the GPL. And now I read to often "please, please Fons, continue writing GPL'ed software, we will reinterpret the GPL for you". Fons is free to stop contributing or to continue contributing by using another license, but if he chose the GPL, he's the only one to blame and not Maurizio M. Gavioli. Calling him simple-minded (because he is one of those Fons was talking about, even while he didn't use Maurizio's name) is offending netiquette, not forking the project is offending netiquette. "Aeolus is meant to emulate a pipe organ, including the limits of a real one. It's not meant to be a backend to some sequencer or notation software, or a general-purpose additive synthesiser." - Fons Maurizio M. Gavioli seems to fork it, for usage with notation software. Any discussion about something that should be wrong with doing this, is a shame and does harm the GPL. Regards, Ralf

11 years, 9 months

Forking JackMix

by Dr Nicholas J Bailey

Ha, it seems I submitted news about a fork right into a firestorm! Well, I've done it, take it or leave it. For the record, I did email Arnold Krille several times without getting a reply, which is fine because there isn't a law which says he has to answer emails from me. Also, the (C) on that software says -2007, so I went ahead. It probably wasn't a good time in retrospect. But hey, the last digest was full of people ranting about forks, plus my post about actually having done one. 1. Code didn't do what I wanted. 2. Made code do what I wanted. 3. Released code (3) is the whole point of FOSS isn't it? I didn't intend to upset Arnold or anybody else, but the only way I'm taking my "fork" off github is if Arnold thinks it's good enough to make it mainstream, which would be an honour and a privilege. Also, it was more than a week's work (mostly understanding the existing code base), which means I reckon I deserve a place on the author list. If Fons thinks I'm a "dog pissing on a lampost or some juvenile spraying his tags on someone else's property", we'll have to agree to differ. I still really hope Arnold is going to let me ask him some questions about his code! I don't actually know anything about what caused all the fuss in the first place, but it's a bit of a shame when people fall out. Politics... blegh! Nick/. Science and Music Research Group, Glasgow, Scotland.

11 years, 9 months

Aeolus

by Fons Adriaensen

Hello all, It has come to my attention that there are ATM at least two 'forks' of Aeolus. The first by the MuseScore team, the second by one Maurizio Gavioli. Neither of them even had the decency to let me know of their work, and both are taking Aeolus in a direction I do not approve of. Gavioli has even added his 'copyright' to the sources of the libraries that Aeolus depends on but which are not part of its source distribution. Apparently the intention is to release incompatible versions of those as well. If this is typical for the attitude taken by the Linux Audio community then my motivation to contribute to it will take a serious blow. As announced previously, there will be a fully reworked release of Aeolus next year (on the occasion of its 10th birthday). Apart from major improvements to the audio code it will be completely OSC controlled. None of this will be compatible with the forks of course, they'll find themselves instantly obsolete. And I will make sure that this sort of thing won't happen again, even if that means a more restrictive license. Ciao, -- FA A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia. It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)

11 years, 9 months

Re: [LAD] Community Interaction and Working Together

by Harry van Haaren

On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 4:18 PM, Brian Sorahan <bsorahan(a)haivision.com>wrote: > I've been wishing for a free Reason-killer ever since starting to use > linux. I actually haven't used Reason since version 4-ish so that is my > reference point (I'm sure it is much more [powerful|bloated] now) > I've never had a proper go at Reason, but I know that Carla is a "rack" type plugin-host: perhaps combining that with Seq24 might get you quite far along? Anyway, noted! -Harry

11 years, 9 months

Re: [LAD] USB device dmesg error

by Clemens Ladisch

tom(a)trellis.ch wrote: > -> the "Couldn't open device" looks suspicious I guess you are not root. > bmAttributes 37 > Transfer Type Isochronous > Synch Type Asynchronous > Usage Type Implicit feedback Data >> I guess this is one of the devices that use implicit feedback >> synchronization, which is very buggy in the current driver. As far as >> I know, only Jack works with these devices. > > Huh? How could that work with JACK if it doesn't with ALSA? Jack uses ALSA; that driver code was tested only with Jack, and expects the playback and capture streams to be opened at the same time. > Btw, this is what i get when trying to start JACK with it: > > ATTENTION: The capture device "hw:0,0" is already in use. The following > applications are using your soundcard(s) so you should check them and > stop them as necessary before trying to start JACK again: > > jackd (process ID 2341) Even more bugginess. Maybe try the other Jack. A patch series that should fix the bugs was posted on alsa-devel: http://mailman.alsa-project.org/pipermail/alsa-devel/2013-August/065744.html Regards, Clemens

11 years, 9 months

[Fwd: Re: USB device dmesg error]

by tom＠trellis.ch

---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: Re: [LAD] USB device dmesg error From: tom(a)trellis.ch Date: Fri, September 20, 2013 15:52 To: "Clemens Ladisch" <clemens(a)ladisch.de> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hei Clemens, thanks for your reply. > tom(a)trellis.ch wrote: >> i'm trying to use a Roland R-26 as audio interface (USB). >> >> I saw it is now officially supported in the alsa-driver repo log > > This support is not complete. > > Please show the output of "lsusb -v" for this device. the output i get is: --- Couldn't open device, some information will be missing Bus 001 Device 007: ID 0582:013e Roland Corp. Device Descriptor: bLength 18 bDescriptorType 1 bcdUSB 2.00 bDeviceClass 255 Vendor Specific Class bDeviceSubClass 0 bDeviceProtocol 255 bMaxPacketSize0 64 idVendor 0x0582 Roland Corp. idProduct 0x013e bcdDevice 0.00 iManufacturer 1 iProduct 2 iSerial 0 bNumConfigurations 1 Configuration Descriptor: bLength 9 bDescriptorType 2 wTotalLength 124 bNumInterfaces 3 bConfigurationValue 1 iConfiguration 0 bmAttributes 0x80 (Bus Powered) MaxPower 500mA Interface Descriptor: bLength 9 bDescriptorType 4 bInterfaceNumber 0 bAlternateSetting 0 bNumEndpoints 0 bInterfaceClass 255 Vendor Specific Class bInterfaceSubClass 255 Vendor Specific Subclass bInterfaceProtocol 0 iInterface 0 Interface Descriptor: bLength 9 bDescriptorType 4 bInterfaceNumber 1 bAlternateSetting 0 bNumEndpoints 0 bInterfaceClass 255 Vendor Specific Class bInterfaceSubClass 2 bInterfaceProtocol 2 iInterface 0 ** UNRECOGNIZED: 06 24 f1 01 00 00 Interface Descriptor: bLength 9 bDescriptorType 4 bInterfaceNumber 1 bAlternateSetting 1 bNumEndpoints 1 bInterfaceClass 255 Vendor Specific Class bInterfaceSubClass 2 bInterfaceProtocol 2 iInterface 0 ** UNRECOGNIZED: 07 24 01 01 00 01 00 ** UNRECOGNIZED: 0b 24 02 01 02 04 18 01 44 ac 00 Endpoint Descriptor: bLength 7 bDescriptorType 5 bEndpointAddress 0x0d EP 13 OUT bmAttributes 5 Transfer Type Isochronous Synch Type Asynchronous Usage Type Data wMaxPacketSize 0x0038 1x 56 bytes bInterval 1 Interface Descriptor: bLength 9 bDescriptorType 4 bInterfaceNumber 2 bAlternateSetting 0 bNumEndpoints 0 bInterfaceClass 255 Vendor Specific Class bInterfaceSubClass 2 bInterfaceProtocol 1 iInterface 0 Interface Descriptor: bLength 9 bDescriptorType 4 bInterfaceNumber 2 bAlternateSetting 1 bNumEndpoints 1 bInterfaceClass 255 Vendor Specific Class bInterfaceSubClass 2 bInterfaceProtocol 1 iInterface 0 ** UNRECOGNIZED: 07 24 01 07 00 01 00 ** UNRECOGNIZED: 0b 24 02 01 02 04 18 01 44 ac 00 Endpoint Descriptor: bLength 7 bDescriptorType 5 bEndpointAddress 0x8e EP 14 IN bmAttributes 37 Transfer Type Isochronous Synch Type Asynchronous Usage Type Implicit feedback Data wMaxPacketSize 0x0038 1x 56 bytes bInterval 1 --- -> the "Couldn't open device" looks suspicious > >> $ aplay a.wav >> Playing WAVE 'rabe_babe.wav' : Signed 16 bit Little Endian, Rate 44100 >> Hz, Stereo >> >> -> there are no errors, but it stays like this (a.wav is a few seconds) >> forever and there is no volume indication "from PC" on the device. >> >> $ arecord -f cd b.wav >> Recording WAVE 'b.wav' : Signed 16 bit Little Endian, Rate 44100 Hz, >> Stereo >> >> -> no errors but the file is empty (44 bytes), the device shows active >> mic >> level "to PC" > > I guess this is one of the devices that use implicit feedback > synchronization, which is very buggy in the current driver. As far as > I know, only Jack works with these devices. > Huh? How could that work with JACK if it doesn't with ALSA? Btw, this is what i get when trying to start JACK with it: -- ub64@ub64:~/tmp$ aplay -l **** List of PLAYBACK Hardware Devices **** card 0: R26AUDIO [R-26(AUDIO)], device 0: USB Audio [USB Audio] Subdevices: 1/1 Subdevice #0: subdevice #0 ub64@ub64:~/tmp$ lsof /dev/snd/* ub64@ub64:~/tmp$ ps aux | grep jack ub64 2340 0.0 0.0 10856 884 pts/1 S+ 15:50 0:00 grep --color=auto jack ub64@ub64:~/tmp$ jackd -d alsa -r 44100 -p 1024 -n 3 -d hw:0,0 jackdmp 1.9.8 Copyright 2001-2005 Paul Davis and others. Copyright 2004-2011 Grame. jackdmp comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY This is free software, and you are welcome to redistribute it under certain conditions; see the file COPYING for details no message buffer overruns no message buffer overruns no message buffer overruns JACK server starting in realtime mode with priority 10 control device hw:0 control device hw:0 audio_reservation_init Acquire audio card Audio0 creating alsa driver ... hw:0,0|hw:0,0|1024|3|44100|0|0|nomon|swmeter|-|32bit control device hw:0 ATTENTION: The capture device "hw:0,0" is already in use. The following applications are using your soundcard(s) so you should check them and stop them as necessary before trying to start JACK again: jackd (process ID 2341) Cannot initialize driver JackServer::Open() failed with -1 Failed to open server -- > > Regards, > Clemens > Ciao, Thomas

11 years, 9 months

Re: [LAD] Community Interaction and Working Together

by michel dominique

On ven. 20/09/13 14:50 , Harry van Haaren <harryhaaren(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > Harry, could you please post some links, when you have seen the > frustration you're talking about? > I'd much prefer focus on improving from where we are: not highlighting > where communication may have broken down. > > I'd also like to get feedback from users, about what tools are needed most: > plugins, synths, effects? Yet-Another-DAW? > If any of the above, please provide details / intended use-case. A monophonic real time note to MIDI converter. The main issue will be different instruments will have different harmonic contents for the same note, and this content can change with time especially during the attack. That imply some kind of visualization of the signal will be needed to fix the parameters of the algorithm for a given instrument. It will be a great plugin/patch for Fons coming wonderful oscilloscope. Dominique > > Cheers from a sunny Ireland, -Harry > _______________________________________________ > Linux-audio-dev mailing list > Linux-audio-dev(a)lists.linuxaudio.org > http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev [1] > > > > Links: > ------ > [1] > http://awebmail.vtx.ch/parse.php?redirect=http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listi > nfo/linux-audio-dev >

11 years, 9 months

Re: [LAD] Aeolus

by michel dominique

On jeu. 19/09/13 17:50 , IOhannes m zmoelnig <zmoelnig(a)iem.at> wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On 2013-09-19 05:31, hermann meyer wrote: > >> > > I'm sad to hear that. :-( Please don't let you lead from the things > > you didn't like, let you lead from the things you like instead. I > > guess then it's necessary to let you know that we use /as well/ a > > fork of your work, the zita-convolver library, in the guitarix > > project. But we leave your copyright untouched, and the fork will > > only come in use, when the user set a explicit compile flag. We > > didn't promote it, or force the fork. Ordinary your original code > > is in use. We do it to use ffmpeg instead fftw3 FFT, which perform > > better on ARM devices. > > but this sounds like the perfect opportunity to not do a simple fork, > but to send patches to upstream so fons' aeolus could support both > fftw3 and ffmpeg FFTs. > it might be a win-win situation, where not only more than just the > original aeolus users can profit from fons' work (because you use his > code) but also more than just your users can profit from your work > (because you changes are included into upstream aeolus). I fully agree. As the main fvwm-crystal developer, I know how hard it can be to get good users returns. I find it scary if even developers cannot share with each others. I begun to write my own fvwm-crystal functions because I wanted them, and when I was done, I contacted upstream. At first, I get no answer, so I done a fork. Some months later, it was a discussion about my fork on fvwm-crystal email list, and that time I get in touch with upstream, and my work was incorporated into Crystal. Form there, I am now the main contributor. It is not always easy, but so is life. As the main fvwm-crystal developer, I just don't have the time to check what can be the special requirements of each distribution or each user that use it. And I find it very sad when they make modifications and don't contribute them. From users, I can understand that very well, but from developers, I think they just miss a very important point about FOS : a community is always about solidarity. That imply we must communicate more with each other. I think this is a big problem, and not only related to Fons work, or the LAD, but to the whole community. And it is not easy to solve if developers that make patches just say nothing to the original developers. We are living in an individualistic society, so are commercial softwares, but with FOS, peoples must really take on them to communicate more about what they are doing, that especially when they are making interesting patches or forks. Dominique > > fmasdr > IOhannes > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.14 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Icedove - http://www.enigmail.net/ [1] > > iEYEARECAAYFAlI7D0UACgkQkX2Xpv6ydvTc+gCdGdTegTkJmgsRvZ5xz39AyxCe > VEIAnRFYLyRpmcUOUsPZ8jsZ5ceuo21g > =v6Hr > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > _______________________________________________ > Linux-audio-dev mailing list > Linux-audio-dev(a)lists.linuxaudio.org > http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev [2] > > > > Links: > ------ > [1] http://awebmail.vtx.ch/parse.php?redirect=http://www.enigmail.net/ > [2] > http://awebmail.vtx.ch/parse.php?redirect=http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listi > nfo/linux-audio-dev >

11 years, 9 months

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Linux-audio-dev