27 May
2020
27 May
'20
3:57 a.m.
Hello,
TC Electronic has a lot of pedals that use their toneprint technology.
They have recently released a new device called the Plethora X5 which slots
5 TC pedal 'models' into a single virtual 'board' and supports 128
'boards'
stored in the Plethora. Visit YouTube for a plethora (sorry) of videos on
the device over the last couple of months.
I purchased one of these devices. It works well (so far). It's Linux
internally running 4.9.47-rt37.
Sadly there are a couple of rather disappointing issues:
1) Nothing new but TC doesn't support Linux with their TonePrint editor. I
see some reports of users running the app with Wine but I cannot be
bothered to do that so I'm using it on a Win10 laptop where my excessive
Native Instruments investments reside. This is manageable but not
preferable for me.
2) The biggest issue - there is apparently no way to back up your settings
which reside in the Plethora X5. The TonePrint editor communicates with the
Plethora over USB or BlueTooth but apparently acting as little more than a
monitor. You can create and edit settings for each of the 5 pedal models
you are running in a single board but it seems the only way to store them
is in the Plethora itself. My (very limited) initial investigation leads me
to believe that there are no data files left on the Windows machine and all
data is only in the Plethora X5. Therefore, be it fire, theft or accident,
if something goes wrong with your Plethora all of your personally created
sounds are lost. (I'm waiting for confirmation of this from TC Electronic
but so far I cannot see why this wouldn't be true.)
Anyway, I'm not a coder but I am technical. If there's someone out there
with an interest of working on some sort of Linux TonePrint support please
get in touch.
Cheers,
Mark Knecht
markknecht(a)gmail.com
28 May
28 May
3:31 p.m.
On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 04:57:14PM -0700, Mark Knecht wrote:
I purchased [a TC Electronic Plethora X5]. It works
well (so far).
It's Linux internally running 4.9.47-rt37.
I'm curious: how do you know which kernel your Plethora X5 uses?
Also, do you know which microprocessor(s)/FPGA(s) the Plethora X5 uses?
I'm partly asking because I wonder if the X5 might be able to run
software from Mod Devices or vice versa. Mod Devices makes ARM-based
multi-FX guitar pedals that run Linux: akin to the X5 but using
LADSPA/LV2 plugins instead of TonePrint ones: https://moddevices.com
Finally, do you know if TC Electronic has published any of the source
code relevant to the Plethora X5? If they are distributing GPL'ed
software (e.g. as X5 firmware updates), then they may need to publish it
by law. See for example:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gpl-violations.org#Notable_victories
Access to the source code would make it easier for developers to enhance
the X5's functionality and to fix shortcomings like the one you describe
below.
The biggest issue - there is apparently no way to back
up your
settings which reside in the Plethora X5. The TonePrint editor
communicates with the Plethora over USB or BlueTooth but apparently
acting as little more than a monitor. You can create and edit settings
for each of the 5 pedal models you are running in a single board but
it seems the only way to store them is in the Plethora itself. My
(very limited) initial investigation leads me to believe that there
are no data files left on the Windows machine and all data is only in
the Plethora X5.
If you plug the Plethora X5 into a Linux box via USB, how does it
present itself to the host?
# Run this on your GNU/Linux box with the X5 not connected:
lsusb --tree > /tmp/lsusb_x5_disconnected.txt
# Run this on your GNU/Linux with your X5 powered up and connected
# to it via USB but everything else the same as above:
lsusb --tree > /tmp/lsusb_x5_connected.txt
# Copy the output of this command and paste it into a reply to this
# email:
diff /tmp/lsusb_x5_disconnected.txt /tmp/lsusb_x5_connected.txt
Therefore, be it fire, theft or accident, if something
goes wrong with
your Plethora all of your personally created sounds are lost. (I'm
waiting for confirmation of this from TC Electronic but so far I
cannot see why this wouldn't be true.)
Please can you update this thread with TC Electronic's reply when you
receive it?
Thanks.
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6:08 p.m.
On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 4:31 AM Sam Kuper <sampablokuper(a)posteo.net> wrote:
On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 04:57:14PM -0700, Mark Knecht wrote:
The front panel menu system:
Global->About->BSP-> Linux 4.9.47-rt37 2019-12-20.C23818C
Granted, I cannot prove that because it says the above that it's really
running Linux, but I'd guess it is.
I purchased [a TC Electronic Plethora X5]. It
works well (so far).
It's Linux internally running 4.9.47-rt37.
I'm curious: how do you know which kernel your Plethora X5 uses?
Also, do you know which microprocessor(s)/FPGA(s) the
Plethora X5 uses?
No idea at this time. Also no idea about A/D & D/A.
In my mind the unit is essentially a 1 channel DAW that can handle 5
plugins as well as an insert bus that can be put anywhere in the chain.
Running plugin modules, be they LADSPA or whatever is more or less how I
see the design.
I'm partly asking because I wonder if the X5 might
be able to run
software from Mod Devices or vice versa. Mod Devices makes ARM-based
multi-FX guitar pedals that run Linux: akin to the X5 but using
LADSPA/LV2 plugins instead of TonePrint ones: https://moddevices.com
Finally, do you know if TC Electronic has published any of the source
code relevant to the Plethora X5?
<SNIP>
I haven't looked hard for any of that but I also haven't seen it in the
manual or on their website.
<SNIP>
If you plug the Plethora X5 into a Linux box via USB,
how does it
present itself to the host?
# Run this on your GNU/Linux box with the X5 not connected:
lsusb --tree > /tmp/lsusb_x5_disconnected.txt
# Run this on your GNU/Linux with your X5 powered up and connected
# to it via USB but everything else the same as above:
lsusb --tree > /tmp/lsusb_x5_connected.txt
# Copy the output of this command and paste it into a reply to this
# email:
diff /tmp/lsusb_x5_disconnected.txt /tmp/lsusb_x5_connected.txt
mark@science:~$ diff /tmp/lsusb_x5_disconnected.txt
/tmp/lsusb_x5_connected.txt
10a11,13
|__ Port 2: Dev 3, If 0, Class=Audio,
Driver=snd-usb-audio, 480M
|__ Port 2: Dev 3, If 1, Class=Audio, Driver=snd-usb-audio, 480M
|__ Port 2: Dev 3, If 2, Class=Mass Storage, Driver=usb-storage, 480M
mark@science:~$
In Windows when you plug the device in your get a explorer window. Dropping
a firmware update into that window and power cycling does the firmware
upgrade automatically.
<SNIP>
A first response from TC Electronic via a moderator named 'TC-Mike' is that
the ability to backup the device is 'on the roadmap'.
I asked about general timeframe but have received no response.
Cheers,
Mark
7:12 p.m.
On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 07:08:25AM -0700, Mark Knecht wrote:
Thanks. All I could find on the TC Electronic website was this page,
which attempts to foist an EULA on anyone who downloads the firmware:
https://www.tcelectronic.com/Categories/Tcelectronic/Guitar/Effects-Process…
I've sent an email to license-violation at gpl-violations.org to let
them know.
I'm not sure it would be wise for anyone to spend time trying to
reverse-engineer the X5 if its source code might be forthcoming. Trying
to get the source code seems a better use of effort in the first
instance.
(N.B.: I do not know whether TC Electronic is in fact violating the GPL,
nor whether it will ever publish its source code for the X5. Sadly, nor
can I help on that front beyond what I have already done, since I don't
hold copyright on any code in the Linux kernel nor do I own an X5. My
participation in this email thread has been on the basis that I would
like to see more audio equipment running and/or made compatible with
GNU/Linux, and on the basis that if the X5 were made more interoperable
with GNU/Linux then I might be interested in owning one.)
On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 4:31 AM Sam Kuper wrote:
Thanks.
On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 04:57:14PM -0700, Mark
Knecht wrote:
The front panel menu system:
Global->About->BSP-> Linux 4.9.47-rt37 2019-12-20.C23818C I purchased [a TC Electronic Plethora X5]. It
works well (so far).
It's Linux internally running 4.9.47-rt37.
I'm curious: how do you know which kernel your Plethora X5 uses? Finally, do
you know if TC Electronic has published any of the source
code relevant to the Plethora X5?
I haven't looked hard for any of that but I also haven't seen it in the
manual or on their website. mark@science:~$ diff /tmp/lsusb_x5_disconnected.txt
/tmp/lsusb_x5_connected.txt
10a11,13
Thanks.
Since the X5 presents a USB mass storage device to the OS and uses
that to upgrade the firmware, at least you should be able to upgrade the
X5's firmware from your GNU/Linux box.
That firmware upgrade path might provide opportunities for future
reverse engineering attempts. (In addition to searching the PCB for
JTAG headers, etc.)
I wonder how the Windows software communicates with the X5, though.
That's not obvious from the lsusb output. A reverse engineer might need
to intercept/sniff the USB traffic between the X5 and a Windows host to
figure that out.
|__ Port 2: Dev 3, If 0, Class=Audio,
Driver=snd-usb-audio, 480M
|__ Port 2: Dev 3, If 1, Class=Audio, Driver=snd-usb-audio, 480M
|__ Port 2: Dev 3, If 2, Class=Mass Storage, Driver=usb-storage, 480M
mark@science:~$
In Windows when you plug the device in your get a explorer window.
Dropping a firmware update into that window and power cycling does the
firmware upgrade automatically. A first response from TC Electronic via a moderator
named 'TC-Mike' is
that the ability to backup the device is 'on the roadmap'.
I asked about general timeframe but have received no response.
Thanks for the follow-up.
--
A: When it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: When is top-posting a bad thing?
() ASCII ribbon campaign. Please avoid HTML emails & proprietary
/\ file formats. (Why? See e.g. https://v.gd/jrmGbS ). Thank you.
8:03 p.m.
On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 8:12 AM Sam Kuper <sampablokuper(a)posteo.net> wrote:
<SNIP>
Since the X5 presents a USB mass storage device to the OS and uses
that to upgrade the firmware, at least you should be able to upgrade the
X5's firmware from your GNU/Linux box.
Sure, but that's probably not going to happen very often, at least in terms
of new firmware coming from TC. WRT to hacking the whole platform to reuse
the hardware under Linux it's a possibility but at $500 sort of expensive
if it goes haywire.
That firmware upgrade path might provide opportunities
for future
reverse engineering attempts. (In addition to searching the PCB for
JTAG headers, etc.)
Agreed/ Completely possible. I suppose there's some opportunity to reverse
engineer the firmware starting with instruction sets and what not but it's
of no immediate interest to me. Being a hardware guy myself I'd be more
interested in starting from scratch but your link to ModDevices suggests an
easier starting place than designing my own hardware.
I wonder how the Windows software communicates with
the X5, though.
That's not obvious from the lsusb output. A reverse engineer might need
to intercept/sniff the USB traffic between the X5 and a Windows host to
figure that out.
I set up WireShark as it's reported to sniff USB. Under Linux I got some
packets. Under Windows I haven't made much progress yet but it's early days.
Cheers,
Mark
8:46 p.m.
On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 09:02:36AM -0700, Mark Knecht wrote:
It may help to run your Windows instance not on bare metal but in a VM
(e.g. under GNU/Linux with KVM; or Xen; or maybe even just Qemu or
VirtualBox). I believe this should let you use the host OS to
inspect/sniff the USB traffic being sent between the guest OS and the
USB device. This sort of thing:
https://wiki.wireshark.org/CaptureSetup/USB
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/117474/how-to-sniff-a-usb-port-under-wi…
https://www.earth.li/~noodles/blog/2012/10/kvm-usbmon-wireshark-win.html
https://www.devalias.net/devalias/2018/05/13/usb-reverse-engineering-down-t…
Good luck!
--
A: When it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: When is top-posting a bad thing?
() ASCII ribbon campaign. Please avoid HTML emails & proprietary
/\ file formats. (Why? See e.g. https://v.gd/jrmGbS ). Thank you.
On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 8:12 AM Sam Kuper wrote:
[..] Being a hardware guy myself I'd be more interested in starting
from scratch but your link to ModDevices suggests an easier starting
place than designing my own hardware.
You might like this thread ("Do any Guitar pedal makers offer Linux
support?"): https://linuxmusicians.com/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=20284
Also: https://blokas.io/pisound/ (Only 12-bit ADC/DAC, though.)
I wonder how
the Windows software communicates with the X5, though.
That's not obvious from the lsusb output. A reverse engineer might
need to intercept/sniff the USB traffic between the X5 and a Windows
host to figure that out.
I set up WireShark as it's reported to sniff USB. Under Linux I got
some packets. Under Windows I haven't made much progress yet but it's
early days.
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