5 Aug
2009
5 Aug
'09
4:41 a.m.
Hallo,
here's an excellent read about Kim Casone (of .microsound and this list, too)
switching from Mac to Linux:
http://createdigitalmusic.com/2009/08/04/linux-music-workflow-switching-fro…
(URL in one line)
Great work, Kim!
Ciao
--
Frank
5 Aug
5 Aug
5:14 a.m.
Gosh, that's quite a BIG endorsement for Linux Audio.
I note, interestingly, that even though in Linux circles (at LAC for
instance), people keep mentioning MS Windows as a rival OS,
for us it's really Apple and OSX that constitutes competition these
days from the proprietary side of things.
I am very happy to see this. One thing I thought was missing
from his text was what did he replace MaxMSP with. I was
wanting to read PD somewhere, but could not find it anywhere.
Victor
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Barknecht" <fbar(a)footils.org>
To: <linux-audio-user(a)lists.linuxaudio.org>
Cc: <linux-audio-dev(a)lists.linuxaudio.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 9:41 AM
Subject: [LAD] Kim did the switch to Linux
Hallo,
here's an excellent read about Kim Casone (of .microsound and this list,
too)
switching from Mac to Linux:
http://createdigitalmusic.com/2009/08/04/linux-music-workflow-switching-fro…
(URL in one line)
Great work, Kim!
Ciao
--
Frank
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-dev mailing list
Linux-audio-dev(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
5:25 a.m.
Hallo,
victor hat gesagt: // victor wrote:
I am very happy to see this. One thing I thought was
missing
from his text was what did he replace MaxMSP with. I was
wanting to read PD somewhere, but could not find it anywhere.
I think, Kim is just not using Max nor Pd anymore in his current workflow. I
also guess, that once his workflow changes again, he'll come back to Pd. :)
Ciao
--
Frank
5:57 a.m.
victor wrote:
I note, interestingly, that even though in Linux
circles (at LAC for
instance), people keep mentioning MS Windows as a rival OS,
for us it's really Apple and OSX that constitutes competition these
days from the proprietary side of things.
A lot of professional studios changed from MacOS to Windows and more and
more of the professional studios still change from MacOS to Windows.
This isn't an opinion by me, but what I hear if I get in contact with
people I know from my jobs I did some years ago. A lot of devices e.g.
measuring instruments changed and still change from Linux to Windows.
I'm unemployed but still know people who still work in those businesses.
I know, there are some famous examples where companies change to Linux,
but this isn't the standard.
I'm positively surprised that people at LAC realize the state of the art
for real-time audio in the proprietary world. It makes me feel good that
I keep staying at Linux, while I read this. For home recording Windows
in any case has been all the time the competition from the proprietary side.
To get more companies interested in supporting their hardware for Linux,
it isn't a help to blur facts by ideologies.
Don't get me wrong, I do not know who you are thinking off with "us", so
you might be right, but the OS presumed dead is on the rise again.
I know people where I can guarantee that for their needs Linux is the
best OS and the second best OS is XP, but they like to use Vista and
some of them like to use XP, while barely one is using Linux.
For real-time audio there are a lot of technical reasons that make
people stay away from Linux, but for most other usage it isn't the
technical side that let people use Windows and MacOS instead of Linux,
even if it's 100% clear that there are a lot of needs where Linux is the
better OS ;).
7:19 a.m.
On 5 Aug 2009, at 10:57, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
victor wrote:
That may well depend on where in the world you're based, it doesn't
seem to be the case in the UK. I'm still in touch with a number of non-
geeky music people here, and they pretty much all use Macs.
- Steve
I note, interestingly, that even though in Linux
circles (at LAC for
instance), people keep mentioning MS Windows as a rival OS,
for us it's really Apple and OSX that constitutes competition these
days from the proprietary side of things.
A lot of professional studios changed from MacOS to Windows and more
and
more of the professional studios still change from MacOS to Windows.
This isn't an opinion by me, but what I hear if I get in contact with
people I know from my jobs I did some years ago. A lot of devices e.g.
measuring instruments changed and still change from Linux to Windows.
I'm unemployed but still know people who still work in those
businesses.
I know, there are some famous examples where companies change to
Linux,
but this isn't the standard.
8:32 a.m.
Steve Harris wrote:
On 5 Aug 2009, at 10:57, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
I worked for e.g. Brauner and have still contact to some people who work
for companies like this. The largest market for professional audio are
the UK and the USA, this are the countries where the most wanted studios
and audio engineers for commerce are. Even in Germany most people prefer
Lady Gaga instead of German independent music and in the USA there's
Hollywood, there are no other countries such important for proprietary
stuff like the UK and the USA. Never heard any thing about Lady Gaga,
maybe she's using MacOS or Linux ;). When I was working for such
companies some years ago, the studios preferred MacOS, that's true. I
don't have any insight myself any more, but I can't belief that what a
friend and credible people reported me will be wrong. In Germany there
are a lot of small professional or semi-professional Studios, that use
Apple + Pro Tools, but "it's said" that charts and film industry changed
to Windows, very often by using latest Steinberg Software.
For desktop computers in Germany I now by my own observations, that
Windows is in the top position. And in addition Windows is used with
cracks and expensive bought software. FLOSS or good less expensive
software for Windows seldom is used. If I would use Windows, I e.g.
would use GIMP there too, but most people are using a cracked or a
bought version of Photoshop. It might be that Photoshop has some
features GIMP don't has, but I know full-time Comic Artists who changed
from MacOs to Windows and they stay at Photoshop, just because of being
afraid that FLOSS or less expensive software would cause more troubles.
The original cause for them to choose Apple instead of PCs were similar
prejudices. Apple was and is more expensive, that's why it must be
better and "everybody knows how buggy Windows and Intel" were ;). Today
they understand that Apple is expensive, makes more trouble for most
needs, so they changed to Windows. Windows can be buggy, Intel CPUs
never were more buggy than other CPUs and compatibility between Macs is
the most worse and most expensive somebody can imagine. Maybe not for
computer freaks, but for users.
Is there any better software (not heed the philosophy of FLOSS) than the
Steinberg software for home recording and professional recording?
Excepted for people with special needs, who don't need many features,
there sure is Linux and other Mac and Windows software that's very good.
For professional usage there are still some products that have a more
prestigious name, but Steinberg.
I always hear about Nuendo on Windows as the most common solution for
studios. For home recording it might be Cubase because of widely spread
cracks.
I very seldom hear about Windows with other software or Mac or Linux for
audio work.
I don't know any statistics. It's possible that I'm wrong, but I'm
convinced I'm right ;). So, no stuff for a dispute, but it would be
interesting to know the truth.
Your impression has nothing to do, with the fact that you are a POSIX
man yourself and that you might have a lot of friends that prefer POSIX,
e.g. Linux or for proprietary software Apple? Btw., what software do you
think or know do most people use for audio on Mac?
Dunno. If you or anybody else like to reply, this might be something
that should be done off-list ;).
Cheers,
Ralf
victor wrote:
That may well depend on where in the world you're based, it doesn't
seem to be the case in the UK. I'm still in touch with a number of
non-geeky music people here, and they pretty much all use Macs.
- Steve I note, interestingly, that even though in Linux
circles (at LAC for
instance), people keep mentioning MS Windows as a rival OS,
for us it's really Apple and OSX that constitutes competition these
days from the proprietary side of things.
A lot of professional studios changed from MacOS to Windows and more and
more of the professional studios still change from MacOS to Windows.
This isn't an opinion by me, but what I hear if I get in contact with
people I know from my jobs I did some years ago. A lot of devices e.g.
measuring instruments changed and still change from Linux to Windows.
I'm unemployed but still know people who still work in those businesses.
I know, there are some famous examples where companies change to Linux,
but this isn't the standard. 
9:08 a.m.
Hi,
On 05.08.2009, at 14:32, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>> A lot of professional studios changed from
MacOS to Windows and
>> more and
>> more of the professional studios still change from MacOS to Windows.
>> This isn't an opinion by me, but what I hear if I get in contact
>> with
>> people I know from my jobs I did some years ago. A lot of devices
>> e.g.
>> measuring instruments changed and still change from Linux to
>> Windows.
>> I'm unemployed but still know people who still work in those
>> businesses.
>> I know, there are some famous examples where companies change to
>> Linux,
>> but this isn't the standard.
>
> That may well depend on where in the world you're based, it doesn't
> seem to be the case in the UK. I'm still in touch with a number of
> non-geeky music people here, and they pretty much all use Macs.
It also depends at which group of people you're looking etc.
I don't know any statistics. It's possible
that I'm wrong, but I'm
convinced I'm right ;). So, no stuff for a dispute, but it would be
interesting to know the truth.
Your impression has nothing to do, with the fact that you are a POSIX
man yourself and that you might have a lot of friends that prefer
POSIX,
e.g. Linux or for proprietary software Apple? Btw., what software do
you
think or know do most people use for audio on Mac?
For OSX the top three are Logic, Live and ProTools. For Windows the
top two are Cubase and Live. Overall there are more OSX than Windows
users, since the switch to Intel based OSX systems the gap is steadily
increasing. Again this depends on which user group and territory
you're looking. So probably everybody's numbers / feelings are
correct, you just need to pick the right parameters when defining the
group of people you're looking at ;-)
Best,
Florian
9:58 a.m.
Florian Schirmer wrote:
For OSX the top three are Logic, Live and ProTools.
For Windows the
top two are Cubase and Live. Overall there are more OSX than Windows
users, since the switch to Intel based OSX systems the gap is steadily
increasing. Again this depends on which user group and territory
you're looking. So probably everybody's numbers / feelings are
correct, you just need to pick the right parameters when defining the
group of people you're looking at ;-)
Even if Gerhard Lengeling is a pioneer for the C64 and the first Atari
software, since Steinberg's Cubase for the Atari I don't like C-Lab any
more, resp. Emagic. Logic IMO is a PITA, I once had it on a borrowed
Mac. I agree that here in Germany Digidesign is widely spreaded. I know
the name Ableton, but never have seen Live.
victor wrote:
In my assessment, while Windows XP was usable for RT
audio,
Vista is not.
Now Vista should be usable (! for audio without other applications on
the same Vista), people only lament about the design, that's what I
heard. I had XP Pro and ! 98se and both were fine with Cubase, but this
installations only were used for audio, anything else was done with
Linux. I guess Windows will be unstable for real-time audio, if you
install Microsoft Office Suite, surf the web etc..
in Ireland still is digidesign+OSX
Still a combination that is often used in Germany too, but the reports I
got by trustful people were about changes from Digidesign on OSX to
Nuendo on Windows.
In any case, I have not seen better RT performance
than a well-tuned,
well-spec'd patched Linux system.
Until now it's impossible on my machine to use combinations of audio
recordings from Linux sequencer played external MIDI equipment in
combination with Linux sequencer played external MIDI equipment that
isn't recorded on audio track, because sync is impossible, because of
too much MIDI jitter. I need to do this because my sound card hasn't
enough audio IOs to record the whole external MIDI setup at once to
individual audio tracks.
I didn't test if this is possible by using Windows on my machine,
someday I'll test it.
With my audio hardware on two computers Linux needed, needs much more
resources. Chipsets, BIOS versions etc. become much more often a pain
when using Linux, than when using Windows. I do recommend Linux for
nearly every usage and I ask people also to test Linux for real-time
audio, but I won't recommend Linux for real-time audio.
9:13 a.m.
In my assessment, while Windows XP was usable for RT audio,
Vista is not. So I am surprised to hear that people using commercial
media apps prefer it to OSX, which supports audio and media much
more integrally (and Apple seems to have deliberately invested in
development for this side of the OS).
But I really don't know much of the commercial world, apart from
studio recording, which AFAIK in Ireland still is digidesign+OSX
based.
In any case, I have not seen better RT performance than a well-tuned,
well-spec'd patched Linux system. IMHO it beats any competition.
And as Kim Cascone says, if you are going to invest time in setting up
a system properly, you may as well go Linux. (This is something I
could never understand about certain companies: they would buy
Microsoft software, employ full-time staff to maintain it and many
of them would even pay for MS support. If you are investing the time
of your staff to support a bought closed-source product, you may
as well not invest the money too).
Victor
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ralf Mardorf" <ralf.mardorf(a)alice-dsl.net>
To: "victor" <Victor.Lazzarini(a)nuim.ie>
Cc: <linux-audio-dev(a)lists.linuxaudio.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 10:57 AM
Subject: Re: [LAD] Kim did the switch to Linux
victor wrote:
I note, interestingly, that even though in Linux
circles (at LAC for
instance), people keep mentioning MS Windows as a rival OS,
for us it's really Apple and OSX that constitutes competition these
days from the proprietary side of things.
A lot of professional studios changed from MacOS to Windows and more and
more of the professional studios still change from MacOS to Windows. This
isn't an opinion by me, but what I hear if I get in contact with people I
know from my jobs I did some years ago. A lot of devices e.g. measuring
instruments changed and still change from Linux to Windows. I'm unemployed
but still know people who still work in those businesses. I know, there
are some famous examples where companies change to Linux, but this isn't
the standard.
I'm positively surprised that people at LAC realize the state of the art
for real-time audio in the proprietary world. It makes me feel good that I
keep staying at Linux, while I read this. For home recording Windows in
any case has been all the time the competition from the proprietary side.
To get more companies interested in supporting their hardware for Linux,
it isn't a help to blur facts by ideologies.
Don't get me wrong, I do not know who you are thinking off with "us", so
you might be right, but the OS presumed dead is on the rise again.
I know people where I can guarantee that for their needs Linux is the best
OS and the second best OS is XP, but they like to use Vista and some of
them like to use XP, while barely one is using Linux.
For real-time audio there are a lot of technical reasons that make people
stay away from Linux, but for most other usage it isn't the technical side
that let people use Windows and MacOS instead of Linux, even if it's 100%
clear that there are a lot of needs where Linux is the better OS ;). 
12:19 p.m.
Frank Barknecht wrote:
here's an excellent read about Kim Casone (of
.microsound and this list, too)
switching from Mac to Linux:
http://createdigitalmusic.com/2009/08/04/linux-music-workflow-switching-fro…
(URL in one line)
Yup, that also hit the Slashdot frontpage last night.
http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/08/04/2131224
--
Dr. Albert Gr"af
Dept. of Music-Informatics, University of Mainz, Germany
Email: Dr.Graef(a)t-online.de, ag(a)muwiinfa.geschichte.uni-mainz.de
WWW: http://www.musikinformatik.uni-mainz.de/ag
3:54 p.m.
From TFA:
--8<----------------------------------
Go to System->Preferences->Sound, click on the Devices tab, and check
out the pulldown menu next to ‘Sound Events’ at the top of the panel.
You will see various acronyms, possibly including cryptic-looking
technologies like OSS, ESD, ALSA, JACK, and Pulse Audio. These acronyms
represent a byzantine tangle of conflicting technologies that over time,
and due to political reasons or backwards compatibility, have ended up
cohabiting with one another. ‘Frankenstein’ might be an accurate
metaphor here.
Thankfully, there is a simpler way, which is the combination of ALSA [a
high-performance, kernel-level audio and MIDI system] and JACK [a system
for creating low-latency audio, MIDI, and sync connections between
applications and computers]. The battle-scarred among us have learned to
ignore all the other audio cruft bolted on to Ubuntu and just use ALSA
and JACK. One can think of the ALSA/JACK stack, the heart of most pro
Linux studios, as the Core Audio of Linux and in my opinion Jack should
be the first thing installed on any musicians laptop. I’d go so far as
to suggest placing it in the Startup Applications so it’s always
running.
-------------------8<--------------------------------------------------
4:16 p.m.
On Wed, 2009-08-05 at 21:53 +0200, Jens M Andreasen wrote:
IMO without a ton of effort Jack could, and should, be turned into a
viable default installation audio system (or the bottom layer of such a
system, at least). The desktop guys certainly aren't ever going to get
it right.
The above problem is a very real one as far as people's perception of
GNU/Linux as an audio system. What a mess. We can do better.
-dr
From TFA:
--8<----------------------------------
Go to System->Preferences->Sound, click on the Devices tab, and check
out the pulldown menu next to ‘Sound Events’ at the top of the panel.
You will see various acronyms, possibly including cryptic-looking
technologies like OSS, ESD, ALSA, JACK, and Pulse Audio. These acronyms
represent a byzantine tangle of conflicting technologies that over time,
and due to political reasons or backwards compatibility, have ended up
cohabiting with one another. ‘Frankenstein’ might be an accurate
metaphor here.
Thankfully, there is a simpler way, which is the combination of ALSA [a
high-performance, kernel-level audio and MIDI system] and JACK [a system
for creating low-latency audio, MIDI, and sync connections between
applications and computers]. The battle-scarred among us have learned to
ignore all the other audio cruft bolted on to Ubuntu and just use ALSA
and JACK. One can think of the ALSA/JACK stack, the heart of most pro
Linux studios, as the Core Audio of Linux and in my opinion Jack should
be the first thing installed on any musicians laptop. I’d go so far as
to suggest placing it in the Startup Applications so it’s always
running.
-------------------8<-------------------------------------------------- 
6:15 p.m.
David Robillard wrote:
On Wed, 2009-08-05 at 21:53 +0200, Jens M Andreasen
wrote:
IMO without a ton of effort Jack could, and should, be turned into a
viable default installation audio system (or the bottom layer of such a
system, at least). The desktop guys certainly aren't ever going to get
it right.
The above problem is a very real one as far as people's perception of
GNU/Linux as an audio system. What a mess. We can do better.
-dr
Linux audio is a total mess... a normal human being can't work with pro
audio on Linux, unless he/she spent hours and hours to learn the little
tricks or he has an expert available who helps him...
I spent 5 hours last week to help somebody to get his (pro) audio
working on Linux... He says to his girlfriend, you better spend a 1000
euro's for such a white macbook, then things just work...
I don't know if I can really recommend Linux for pro audio to normal
human beings... at least I should say, you need a lot of time, not easy
give up on things and a lot of patience...
I don't know if there is a connection between LAD and the distro
builders, but it seems there is need for change somewhere...
Kim did the switch (nice article), but he has an other background then
most of the people who works on Desktops and in studios...
\r
From TFA:
--8<----------------------------------
Go to System->Preferences->Sound, click on the Devices tab, and check
out the pulldown menu next to ‘Sound Events’ at the top of the panel.
You will see various acronyms, possibly including cryptic-looking
technologies like OSS, ESD, ALSA, JACK, and Pulse Audio. These acronyms
represent a byzantine tangle of conflicting technologies that over time,
and due to political reasons or backwards compatibility, have ended up
cohabiting with one another. ‘Frankenstein’ might be an accurate
metaphor here.
Thankfully, there is a simpler way, which is the combination of ALSA [a
high-performance, kernel-level audio and MIDI system] and JACK [a system
for creating low-latency audio, MIDI, and sync connections between
applications and computers]. The battle-scarred among us have learned to
ignore all the other audio cruft bolted on to Ubuntu and just use ALSA
and JACK. One can think of the ALSA/JACK stack, the heart of most pro
Linux studios, as the Core Audio of Linux and in my opinion Jack should
be the first thing installed on any musicians laptop. I’d go so far as
to suggest placing it in the Startup Applications so it’s always
running.
-------------------8<--------------------------------------------------
6:53 p.m.
2009/8/5 Grammostola Rosea <rosea.grammostola(a)gmail.com>om>:
Linux audio is a total mess... a normal human being
can't work with pro
audio on Linux, unless he/she spent hours and hours to learn the little
tricks or he has an expert available who helps him...
What is the purpose of telling this mailing list this?
I spent 5 hours last week to help somebody to get his
(pro) audio
working on Linux... He says to his girlfriend, you better spend a 1000
euro's for such a white macbook, then things just work...
unless of course you need to use an aggregate device and inadvertently
use an app that resets the sample rate and you lose one "side" of the
device (playback or capture). or maybe you just use a mac mini with
the defaults and notice totally crappy sound quality (clicks and ticks
everywhere) that don't go away until you buy a new audio interface or
reboot regularly. or you run the OS X update utility and the new wifi
drivers kill audio latency. or you already have a firewire interface
and you forget to notice that the macbook you just bought doesn't have
firewire anymore. etc. etc. etc.
I don't know if I can really recommend Linux for
pro audio to normal
human beings... at least I should say, you need a lot of time, not easy
give up on things and a lot of patience...
then get off this list and leave us to our playthings. or better yet,
spend time critiquing the current state of the "out of the box"
experience with the people who **actually provide** the out of the
box experience.
I don't know if there is a connection between LAD
and the distro
builders, but it seems there is need for change somewhere...
Kim did the switch (nice article), but he has an other background then
most of the people who works on Desktops and in studios...
Maybe Kim is precisely representative of the sort of the user LAD-ers
are interested in. Maybe not. What purpose does your email serve? Do
you think that anyone on this list is not ACUTELY aware of the
situation you are describing?
6 Aug
6 Aug
5:43 a.m.
Paul Davis wrote:
Why do you make this noise?
Why do you make this noise?
This is why I know so many people who never ever will use Linux, because
of noise like yours Paul.
For flame-wars please reply off-list ;). I'll ignore it :).
Ralf
2009/8/5 Grammostola Rosea
<rosea.grammostola(a)gmail.com>om>:
Maybe he just replied to another mail and wanted to point out some
problems that are the cause, that there are so less people using Linux
real-time audio. I guess a developers list isn't a bad place to do it.
I don't have the impression that he wanted to attack you ;).
Linux audio is a total mess... a normal human
being can't work with pro
audio on Linux, unless he/she spent hours and hours to learn the little
tricks or he has an expert available who helps him...
What is the purpose of telling this mailing list this?
I spent 5
hours last week to help somebody to get his (pro) audio
working on Linux... He says to his girlfriend, you better spend a 1000
euro's for such a white macbook, then things just work...
unless of course you need to use an aggregate device and inadvertently
use an app that resets the sample rate and you lose one "side" of the
device (playback or capture). or maybe you just use a mac mini with
the defaults and notice totally crappy sound quality (clicks and ticks
everywhere) that don't go away until you buy a new audio interface or
reboot regularly. or you run the OS X update utility and the new wifi
drivers kill audio latency. or you already have a firewire interface
and you forget to notice that the macbook you just bought doesn't have
firewire anymore. etc. etc. etc.
I don't
know if I can really recommend Linux for pro audio to normal
human beings... at least I should say, you need a lot of time, not easy
give up on things and a lot of patience...
then get off this list and leave us to our playthings. or better yet,
spend time critiquing the current state of the "out of the box"
experience with the people who **actually provide** the out of the
box experience.
I don't
know if there is a connection between LAD and the distro
builders, but it seems there is need for change somewhere...
Kim did the switch (nice article), but he has an other background then
most of the people who works on Desktops and in studios...
Maybe Kim is precisely representative of the sort of the user LAD-ers
are interested in. Maybe not. What purpose does your email serve? Do
you think that anyone on this list is not ACUTELY aware of the
situation you are describing? 
6:01 a.m.
On 08/06/2009 04:43 PM, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
This is why I know so many people who never ever will use Linux, because
of noise like yours Paul.
And your point is what exactly? That Paul should give a toss about those
people? That he or others on this list should just accept the continual
negative feedback from yourself and Gram? That Linux focused mailing
lists are is not suitable places for the people you know to get support
for technical issues?
I know lots of people who will never intentionally use Linux because
they don't know what it is.
I also know lots of people who will never use Linux because they can't
handle the pace and requirements that come with running a Linux Audio
system for professional use.
I also know lots of people who would rather pay me or someone else with
technical expertise to manage their system for them.
I also know lots of people who are unable or too cheap to pay me or
someone with technical expertise to manage their system for them and
most of them still ask me for help at every opportunity.
Some anti Linux people like to promote the idea that Linux people are
less open to their needs than people on other platforms. It seems to me
that this attitude comes from a limited understanding of how the open
source community works.
It's a fairly simple concept. Basically anyone who is unable to help
themselves shouldn't use Linux unless they are prepared to learn how.
That includes learning how to communicate effectively to the people that
are putting in the effort to make things work.
Patrick Shirkey
Boost Hardware Ltd
For flame-wars please reply off-list ;). I'll
ignore it :).
Ralf
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-dev mailing list
Linux-audio-dev(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
6:19 a.m.
Patrick Shirkey wrote:
On 08/06/2009 04:43 PM, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
Gram? You mean me? Continual
negative feedback? Sorry but that's not
what I deserve. Dive into the archives if you want ;)
And I restated my critique in my last message, so I will not apologize
again ;)
Time for some positive things now... let's make some music... 100% on
GNU/Linux :)
\r
This is why I know so many people who never ever will use Linux, because
of noise like yours Paul.
And your point is what exactly? That Paul should give a toss about
those people? That he or others on this list should just accept the
continual negative feedback from yourself and Gram?
7:20 a.m.
Patrick Shirkey wrote:
It seems to me that this attitude comes from a limited
understanding
of how the open source community works.
It differs to other open source communities, I agree and this might be a
problem for me, I agree. But I don't agree that most machines can be set
up to be fine with Linux audio. I mentioned that most people using Linux
don't use many recording techniques, that are common for home-recording
and professional recording.
At home I'm only using Linux! It's said that less than 1% desktop
computer users, including all non-audio users, are using Linux worldwide
in 2009. It's from a German report done by Linux folks. If developers
won't listen to users to understand their needs, the amount of users
will decrees.
What's bad with pointing out some issues?
Ralf
7:23 a.m.
Ralf Mardorf wrote:
Patrick Shirkey wrote:
decrease.
It seems to me that this attitude comes from a
limited understanding
of how the open source community works.
It differs to other open source communities, I agree and this might be a
problem for me, I agree. But I don't agree that most machines can be set
up to be fine with Linux audio. I mentioned that most people using Linux
don't use many recording techniques, that are common for home-recording
and professional recording.
At home I'm only using Linux! It's said that less than 1% desktop
computer users, including all non-audio users, are using Linux worldwide
in 2009. It's from a German report done by Linux folks. If developers
won't listen to users to understand their needs, the amount of users
will
What's bad with pointing out some issues?
Ralf
Pardon, my English is broken.
9:33 a.m.
Jens M Andreasen wrote:
On Thu, 2009-08-06 at 13:22 +0200, Ralf Mardorf
wrote:
Assembler for different processors.
Pardon, my English is broken.
Which reminds me:
* What is your favourite programming language?
* What kind of Linux Audio project are you currently
spending time upon?
I never programmed anything for Linux. I'm not able to do it and I don't
have the time to learn it.
This is really my last reply to this topic, I just replied to this one
too, because I've not seen it, because Patrick's mails are bad sorted by
Thunderbird, because of a time problem, dunno if this will be fixed by
ntpdate/sntp or if this is caused by another problem.
12:28 p.m.
On Thu, 2009-08-06 at 15:03 +0200, Jens M Andreasen wrote:
On Thu, 2009-08-06 at 13:22 +0200, Ralf Mardorf
wrote:
Hehe... does mailman support an entrance examination? :)
-dr
Pardon, my English is broken.
Which reminds me:
* What is your favourite programming language?
* What kind of Linux Audio project are you currently spending time upon? 
2:38 p.m.
David Robillard wrote:
On Thu, 2009-08-06 at 15:03 +0200, Jens M Andreasen
wrote:
i guess majordomo is what you're looking for :-D
On Thu, 2009-08-06 at 13:22 +0200, Ralf Mardorf
wrote:
Hehe... does mailman support an entrance examination? :) Pardon, my English is broken.
Which
reminds me:
* What is your favourite programming language?
* What kind of Linux Audio project are you currently spending time upon?
5:47 p.m.
> entrance examination? :)
>
I subscribed to the list, because I needed some information when I tried
to program for Linux audio. I guess you want people to learn how to
program for Linux audio. What you're looking for is an attitude test,
not a test about programming knowledge. I've got knowledge about
programming, not about programming for Linux. You don't like my
attitude, but I hope you like other people who have the attitude that
you want, even if they don't have programming knowledge. (This is
another issue, but not that one OS might or might not be good, better or
what ever, so I guess I should reply :p)
Should all people have the same attitude? Especially should all artist
have the same attitude? :D
Btw. on user lists a user don't get some needed information, e.g.
actually about what kernel is fine with rtirq and what kernel isn't fine
with it, so it can become impossible to set up an audio Linux, another
reason why I'm subscribed to this list.
I'm and other users are responsible for my/their Linux installations, we
should use all available sources to get knowledge. Some, me too, do so.
In addition now you expect from users that they also should have the
same attitude?
6:31 p.m.
On Thu, 2009-08-06 at 23:47 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
[snip several more paragraphs of blaaah
blaaah blaaaaaah]
What we're looking for is less completely irrelevant noise like this.
Particularly in response to jokes (blatant smileys and all).
Honestly...
-dr
> entrance
examination? :)
>
I subscribed to the list, because I needed some information when I tried
to program for Linux audio. I guess you want people to learn how to
program for Linux audio. What you're looking for is an attitude test,
not a test about programming knowledge.
12:25 p.m.
On Thu, 2009-08-06 at 11:43 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
Paul Davis wrote:
(Apologies in advance for speaking on behalf of another and using the
generic "we", but:)
Paul's point is that whining about the problem - the problem we are all
very much aware of - is not productive in any way.
People doing this have completely derailed this potentially useful
conversation (useful as in discussing of solutions) entirely, not Paul's
message.
I'll try again:
WE KNOW THERE IS A PROBLEM HERE. We also know that it's "not that bad"
once you set it up, or whatever. Hello? This is linux-audio-dev. We
know. Keep the generic whining about obvious things (or defending
things in response to such) on LAU where it belongs, please.
-dr
P.S. In general there is far too much user whining and wars going on in
here lately. Can we have linux-audio-DEV back, please?
2009/8/5 Grammostola Rosea
<rosea.grammostola(a)gmail.com>om>:
Maybe Kim is precisely representative of the sort of the user LAD-ers
are interested in. Maybe not. What purpose does your email serve? Do
you think that anyone on this list is not ACUTELY aware of the
situation you are describing?
This is why I know so many people who never ever will use Linux, because
of noise like yours Paul.
9:46 p.m.
On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 5:43 AM, Ralf Mardorf<ralf.mardorf(a)alice-dsl.net> wrote:
Why do you make this noise?
To illustrate that the often repeated claim that "things just work (on
OS X)" isn't actually trie.
Why do you make this noise?
because i am sick and tired of people complaining to *developers*
about the out-of-box experience when this is something that we do not
control.
Maybe he just replied to another mail and wanted to
point out some problems
that are the cause, that there are so less people using Linux real-time
audio. I guess a developers list isn't a bad place to do it.
I don't have the impression that he wanted to attack you ;).
The developers on this list are already perfectly aware of the issues.
Repeating them ad nauseam doesn't help solve them.
I spent 5 hours last week to help somebody to get his
(pro) audio
working on Linux... He says to his girlfriend, you better spend a 1000
euro's for such a white macbook, then things just work...
unless of course you need to use an aggregate device and inadvertently
use an app that resets the sample rate and you lose one "side" of the
device (playback or capture). or maybe you just use a mac mini with
the defaults and notice totally crappy sound quality (clicks and ticks
everywhere) that don't go away until you buy a new audio interface or
reboot regularly. or you run the OS X update utility and the new wifi
drivers kill audio latency. or you already have a firewire interface
and you forget to notice that the macbook you just bought doesn't have
firewire anymore. etc. etc. etc.
I don't know if I can really recommend Linux for
pro audio to normal
human beings... at least I should say, you need a lot of time, not easy
give up on things and a lot of patience...
then get off this list and leave us to our playthings. or better yet,
spend time critiquing the current state of the "out of the box"
experience with the people who **actually provide** the out of the
box experience.
7 Aug
7 Aug
3:59 a.m.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Just a funny story to this:
Some weeks ago I jammed with a friend, a convinced osx user, at home.
My all purpose notebook was running with openoffice firefox and
thunderbird and eclipse as I worked with it before, so there was a first
strange look from my friend: "Won't you close these for your audio
session?" "Nah why should I do that?"
I then started Zyn, Timemachine and Jamin to record the stuff which came
out of our Synths and connected my midi-keyboard via usb to zyn.
During the jam we came to the idea to connect the keyboard directly to
his spectralis for better note entry.
So he just removed it from its USB port to connect it to the spectralis
and got really pale and shocked.
I asked "What happend?"
"Well, doesn't removing the midi device crash the application? In OSX I
often have to disconnect it before because otherwise the app will
sometimes crash..."
Just had to grin :)
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Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
iEYEARECAAYFAkp70FAACgkQVC26eJ+o0+0TXgCfS7FB2AFaQ1e16k2thl4qQI4M
mBgAoJ2ToIenUbdkW1coTOQcY32FQEDs
=/xIp
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
5 Aug
5 Aug
6:54 p.m.
Linux audio is a total mess... a normal human being
can't work with pro
audio on Linux, unless he/she spent hours and hours to learn the little
tricks or he has an expert available who helps him...
I spent 5 hours last week to help somebody to get his (pro) audio
working on Linux... He says to his girlfriend, you better spend a 1000
euro's for such a white macbook, then things just work...
I don't know if I can really recommend Linux for pro audio to normal
human beings... at least I should say, you need a lot of time, not easy
give up on things and a lot of patience...
I don't know if there is a connection between LAD and the distro
builders, but it seems there is need for change somewhere...
People are moaning about Linux Audio for a while but should look at the
other systems, pro audio simply doesnt work on any (operating) system
without some involvement. Hard- and software are now very complex
systems and with all these small problems, its still not there.
Computers may work if you do some basic web browsing and writing a
letter but anything beyond is asking for trouble. If its gaming or video
editing or proaudio, the forums are full with horrorstorys for any
operating system. The expectations of the people, driven by shameless
glossy marketing, are not met and wont for the next couple of years.
The best solution is buying a turn-key system, prepared for the heavy
duty of shifting audio bits in a defined time. But it shifts the 5 hours
or more of labour and swearing to the seller and at least he or she
knows which hardware is in it, but work is still involved anyway.
64Studio had it right for a while with a rather smooth out-of the box
experience regarding low latency audio but I dont know where they are now.
Cheers,
Malte
--
----
media art + development
http://www.block4.com
6 Aug
6 Aug
1:52 a.m.
Am Donnerstag, den 06.08.2009, 00:54 +0200 schrieb Malte Steiner:
Hi
Yes, I don't understand why people mean linux audio is a mess, last
day's I have setup a new box with debian/sid and it took me a half day
to get a full featured rt audio/midi environment on the run. It's like
always in life, if you wont to use a tool, you must know how it work's.
There is no diff in this case to windos or mac. Only, when you have
already learn how one tool works, may you don't wont to learn how a
other tool work to receive the same results. So the price for the switch
to linux is a small piece of your brain witch you must open for basic
linux knowledge. :-)
hermann
Linux audio is
a total mess... a normal human being can't work with pro
audio on Linux, unless he/she spent hours and hours to learn the little
tricks or he has an expert available who helps him...
I spent 5 hours last week to help somebody to get his (pro) audio
working on Linux... He says to his girlfriend, you better spend a 1000
euro's for such a white macbook, then things just work...
I don't know if I can really recommend Linux for pro audio to normal
human beings... at least I should say, you need a lot of time, not easy
give up on things and a lot of patience...
I don't know if there is a connection between LAD and the distro
builders, but it seems there is need for change somewhere...
People are moaning about Linux Audio for a while but should look at the
other systems, pro audio simply doesnt work on any (operating) system
without some involvement. Hard- and software are now very complex
systems and with all these small problems, its still not there.
Computers may work if you do some basic web browsing and writing a
letter but anything beyond is asking for trouble. If its gaming or video
editing or proaudio, the forums are full with horrorstorys for any
operating system. The expectations of the people, driven by shameless
glossy marketing, are not met and wont for the next couple of years.
The best solution is buying a turn-key system, prepared for the heavy
duty of shifting audio bits in a defined time. But it shifts the 5 hours
or more of labour and swearing to the seller and at least he or she
knows which hardware is in it, but work is still involved anyway.
64Studio had it right for a while with a rather smooth out-of the box
experience regarding low latency audio but I dont know where they are now.
Cheers,
Malte 
2:04 a.m.
Sorry you got this twice Hermann, I am still used to the reply munging that
was gotten rid of some time ago.
On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 11:52 PM, hermann <brummer-(a)web.de> wrote:
Hi
Yes, I don't understand why people mean linux audio is a mess, last
day's I have setup a new box with debian/sid and it took me a half day
to get a full featured rt audio/midi environment on the run.
Its because, take for example OS X.... Hmm out of the box is capable of
pretty decent audio and midi for both professional and consumer
applications. No custom kernel, no need to worry about Flash working while
you are running your pro-audio application.
It took you half a day, I could probably do it in a few hours at most. But
I also have more than my fair share of knowledge on Linux administration and
specifically how to set up a realtime audio system for professional use.
Most people going into Linux do not know that, and that is why it is a
mess. There are distributions out there, sadly probably the best known
being Ubuntu Studio, that by default out of the box do not provide an
experience anywhere close to being ready for low latency performance. You
have to disable this sound system, and that sound system, and install Jack,
and then get Flash working with Jack(Iffy at best).
It isn't that Linux isn't capable of being used for professional audio, far
from it. I did for a long period of time and the only reason I still don't
is because I had a motherboard blow on me and haven't had the money to
replace that machine. It is because in order to get a basic experience of
decent performance for professional audio applications and still not cripple
most of the consumer applications out there, you have to dig into system
administration that most users are not willing or capable of doing.
It's like
always in life, if you wont to use a tool, you must know how it work's.
There is no diff in this case to windos or mac.
Yes there is. Mac I install and get going right then and there, no worry
about xruns because I don't have realtime preemption capable kernel, or I
don't have /etc/security/limits.conf correctly set up.
Look I am all in favor of LInux, but people need to realise how these things
affect newcomers to Linux as well, and if you can't see the reasoning behind
why people say these things, then there is other issues to sort out.
And before anyone says I am a Mac fanboi, please look me up some first, even
reading my earlier post in this thread. I truly believe Linux is more
capable once it is set up for realtime audio than Mac or Windows(Or probably
many others, I just don't have experience with all of them). But it is
getting to the point of having your system set up for that which is so
confusing for many users.
Seablade
6:26 a.m.
hermann wrote:
Hi
Yes, I don't understand why people mean linux audio is a mess, last
day's I have setup a new box with debian/sid and it took me a half day
to get a full featured rt audio/midi environment on the run. It's like
always in life, if you wont to use a tool, you must know how it work's.
There is no diff in this case to windos or mac. Only, when you have
already learn how one tool works, may you don't wont to learn how a
other tool work to receive the same results. So the price for the switch
to linux is a small piece of your brain witch you must open for basic
linux knowledge. :-)
hermann
With knowledge you need half a day, for Windows people without knowledge
need half an hour ;). But comparisons like this are useless. The
conclusion that people started with Windows and don't know Linux isn't
true for the scene were I'm from. We started with the C64 etc. and then
we used Linux only and because of troubles with real-time audio some
switched to Windows. As an audio engineer on work I had to work with
Microsoft and Apple and less trouble, at home I'm using Linux with lot
of troubles.
Ralf
6:33 a.m.
On 08/06/2009 05:26 PM, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
hermann wrote:
Again. What is your point? Many people use Linux Audio tools and
infrastructure for professional use everyday.
All you are saying is that Linux is difficult for you and your friends
to use and Microsoft is easy.
Why do you insist on continually saying this to the LAD list? We know
that there are limitations to the Linux Audio system. No one has ever
claimed otherwise.
Because you very rarely have useful feedback, as far as I can tell, you
are a troll.
Patrick Shirkey
Boost Hardware Ltd
Hi
Yes, I don't understand why people mean linux audio is a mess, last
day's I have setup a new box with debian/sid and it took me a half day
to get a full featured rt audio/midi environment on the run. It's like
always in life, if you wont to use a tool, you must know how it work's.
There is no diff in this case to windos or mac. Only, when you have
already learn how one tool works, may you don't wont to learn how a
other tool work to receive the same results. So the price for the switch
to linux is a small piece of your brain witch you must open for basic
linux knowledge. :-)
hermann
With knowledge you need half a day, for Windows people without knowledge
need half an hour ;). But comparisons like this are useless. The
conclusion that people started with Windows and don't know Linux isn't
true for the scene were I'm from. We started with the C64 etc. and then
we used Linux only and because of troubles with real-time audio some
switched to Windows. As an audio engineer on work I had to work with
Microsoft and Apple and less trouble, at home I'm using Linux with lot
of troubles.
7:34 a.m.
Patrick Shirkey wrote:
Many people use Linux Audio tools and infrastructure
for professional
use everyday.
Yes, less than 1% of all users are using Linux and this are many people,
because for audio there are more less people than for general usage.
And more than 99% people are less than less than 1% people. I do
understand now :D.
you are a troll.
Yes, I'm a troll.
So everybody is fine now?
The troll now will again help people to set up their Linux, instead of
calling them stupid or lazy or trolls.
Remember, I just defended Ross, because he didn't said something wrong,
I didn't started any negative posting.
Why didn't you wrote off-list? You made mountains out of molehills.
Isn't this trolling done by you?
Ralf
7:43 a.m.
On 08/06/2009 06:34 PM, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
Patrick Shirkey wrote:
This statistic is often reported but it is always referenced with a
disclaimer saying that they can't really tell how many people are using
Linux.
The truth is that millions of people use Linux for daily professional
use, millions more use it as a hobby platform and further millions more
use multi boot systems.
Many people use Linux Audio tools and
infrastructure for professional
use everyday.
Yes, less than 1% of all users are using Linux and this are many
people, because for audio there are more less people than for general
usage.
And more than 99% people are less than less than 1% people. I do
understand now :D.
If you don't stop trolling and continually harping on about how you find
Microsoft is easier to work with and Linux Audio has lots of problems
without actually contributing anything useful to advance the tools that
you find so lacking then I'm not the only one who will continue to have
a word for you.
Patrick Shirkey
Boost Hardware Ltd
you are a troll.
Yes, I'm a troll.
So everybody is fine now?
The troll now will again help people to set up their Linux, instead of
calling them stupid or lazy or trolls.
Remember, I just defended Ross, because he didn't said something
wrong, I didn't started any negative posting.
Why didn't you wrote off-list? You made mountains out of molehills.
Isn't this trolling done by you?
Ralf
8:01 a.m.
Patrick Shirkey wrote:
If you don't stop trolling and continually harping
on about how you
find Microsoft is easier to work with and Linux Audio has lots of
problems without actually contributing anything useful to advance the
tools that you find so lacking then I'm not the only one who will
continue to have a word for you.
This seems to be a problem of my broken English or anything else.
I don't say that I find Microsoft easier. I'm only using Linux at home.
I said that the averaged user has often problems with Linux and in
relation to that less problems with Apple and Microsoft. And I would
like to see more Linux folks to allow people to ask what they want to
ask and to help them instead of dismiss them to Google and to ignore the
user needs. I'm not a coder for Linux, I only can get in contact with
coders and I do this by developer lists, e.g. Rui added different timer
sources to Qtractor, because of me. I could argue with a lot of stuff,
but I guess there's no need to justify anything.
I did not write one line of code, but I found out a lot of issues and
reported those issues and some coders liked to get reports, maybe you
don't like reports, but I didn't write to you, so please calm down.
8:08 a.m.
On 08/06/2009 07:01 PM, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
Patrick Shirkey wrote:
That's a poor excuse. Your responses are often slanted towards Linux is
bad, I like microsoft for professional use and in the public lists that
you post on you rarely contribute anything useful.
If you don't stop trolling and continually
harping on about how you
find Microsoft is easier to work with and Linux Audio has lots of
problems without actually contributing anything useful to advance the
tools that you find so lacking then I'm not the only one who will
continue to have a word for you.
This seems to be a problem of my broken English or anything else.
I don't say that I find Microsoft easier.
WTF?
You did and you also said your friends do too.
You are a consumate troll. Now you are twisting and rewording your
reponses to match your needs.
I personally love this game so keep it coming.
Patrick Shirkey
Boost Hardware Ltd
8:10 a.m.
Am Donnerstag, den 06.08.2009, 12:26 +0200 schrieb Ralf Mardorf:
hermann wrote:
You will tell me that you could make a windows install in a half hour,
without knowledge ? And you find/buy/copy all applications you need for
a audio/midi session included ? But like you said, comparisons like this
are useless. The point is simple the people use windows or mac becasue
they use windows or mac, that's all. They only eat what they know.
And let me reaped, the price you have to pay for a linux pro audio box
is a small peace of your mind that you need to feat with the linux
knowledge base. If one is not willing to pay this price, linux isn't for
him/her. Then you have to pay the price windows or mac force you to pay.
hermann
Hi
Yes, I don't understand why people mean linux audio is a mess, last
day's I have setup a new box with debian/sid and it took me a half day
to get a full featured rt audio/midi environment on the run. It's like
always in life, if you wont to use a tool, you must know how it work's.
There is no diff in this case to windos or mac. Only, when you have
already learn how one tool works, may you don't wont to learn how a
other tool work to receive the same results. So the price for the switch
to linux is a small piece of your brain witch you must open for basic
linux knowledge. :-)
hermann
With knowledge you need half a day, for Windows people without knowledge
need half an hour ;). But comparisons like this are useless. The
conclusion that people started with Windows and don't know Linux isn't
true for the scene were I'm from. We started with the C64 etc. and then
we used Linux only and because of troubles with real-time audio some
switched to Windows. As an audio engineer on work I had to work with
Microsoft and Apple and less trouble, at home I'm using Linux with lot
of troubles.
Ralf
5:51 a.m.
Malte Steiner wrote:
People are moaning about Linux Audio for a while but
should look at the
other systems, pro audio simply doesnt work on any (operating) system
without some involvement. Hard- and software are now very complex
systems and with all these small problems, its still not there.
Computers may work if you do some basic web browsing and writing a
letter but anything beyond is asking for trouble. If its gaming or video
editing or proaudio, the forums are full with horrorstorys for any
operating system. The expectations of the people, driven by shameless
glossy marketing, are not met and wont for the next couple of years.
The best solution is buying a turn-key system, prepared for the heavy
duty of shifting audio bits in a defined time. But it shifts the 5 hours
or more of labour and swearing to the seller and at least he or she
knows which hardware is in it, but work is still involved anyway.
I don't agree. Most people go the illegal way by using a crack of Cubase
on Windows, in addition they install asio4all and that it is, everything
most times is fine and they have much more possibilities than all Linux
applications has got.
Linux shouldn't become like Windows ;), don't get me wrong. But for
Linux there are many unsolved issues, e.g. the hardware vendor troubles.
64Studio had it right for a while with a rather smooth
out-of the box
experience regarding low latency audio but I dont know where they are now.
Linux is the OS I recommend all people I know and 64 Studio is the
distro I recommend. 3.0-beta3 is fine out of the box for most needs,
it's the best 64 Studio they ever made, e.g. because they use JACK2 by
default, so no chip set will make JACK disconnect clients any more.
Ralf
8:41 a.m.
Ralf Mardorf schrieb:
Thats why I am against using cracked software, it hurts open source
and
just train the people for the expensive software packages like Photoshop
instead of Gimp. And then they show up on lists like this and says, that
all is easier on Windows or Mac, forgetting that they invest time in
learning the closed source plus they never installed a system from
scratch. When I was confronted with Windows the first time, it was
something like 3.1 or 3.11, I had to learn how to setup and administrate
it, the knowledge is not given for any system.
>With knowledge you need half a day, for Windows
people without knowledge need half an hour ;) .
This is a wrong, you can be happy
to have a basic windows system running
in a half hour without drivers and the important security bullshit
(because Microsoft cant get their act together). Then you start to hunt
down the proper drivers for your hardware and after that you install you
applications, it takes hours, with experience. I had to do it often for
Windows XP and doubt it got any better with Vista.
The best
solution is buying a turn-key system, prepared for the heavy
duty of shifting audio bits in a defined time. But it shifts the 5
hours or more of labour and swearing to the seller and at least he or
she knows which hardware is in it, but work is still involved anyway.
I don't agree. Most people go the illegal way by using a crack of Cubase
on Windows, in addition they install asio4all and that it is,
everything
most times is fine and they have much more possibilities than all Linux
applications has got.
Interapplication audio and midi transmission? I have my doubts.
Professional applications for free? Barly legal I guess.
Complete control of the visual experience and its wasting of CPU cycles?
Dream on.
--
----
media art + development
http://www.block4.com
9:24 a.m.
Malte Steiner wrote:
No, this is a misunderstanding, maybe because of my broken English. Yes,
I've got friends that find Windows easier to use, I don't use Windows
privately. I just try to explain that there are illegal ways to set up a
Windows easily and that for Linux this could be done legal and I
mentioned that 64 Studio does! I disagreed with Ross!
You misconduct and use stupid jargon like "troll", without trying to
understand what I have written.
This is a wrong, you can be happy to have a basic
windows system running
in a half hour without drivers and the important security bullshit
First: I'm not using Windows.
People who do use Windows just take one of those illegal Windows "All In
One" media, push a button and in less than 30 minutes they have got a
stable Windows XP Pro with security upgrades, drivers and without any
WGA problematic. After that they install asio4all and than they run a
cracked package to get their audio software.
Thats why I am against using cracked software, it
hurts open source and
just train the people for the expensive software packages like Photoshop
instead of Gimp.
Full ACK. I never wrote anything different. I don't understand why
people run Photoshop on Wine, I'm only using GIMP and I would use GIMP
too, if I would use Windows.
But even if this is bad, it's the comfort you can have for Windows.
That's a poor excuse. Your responses are often
slanted towards Linux
is bad, I like microsoft for professional use and in the public lists
that you post on you rarely contribute anything useful.
Didn't you blame Ross for my words? I often were balmed for words of
other people and again, I didn't started it here, I just defended Ross.
I don't say that I find Microsoft easier.
WTF?
You did and you also said your friends do too. I personally love this game so keep it coming.
It's not a game for me, I'm serious, because I like to have a legal
alternative for the averaged user, I like the idea of FLOSS, I
programmed FLOSS my self, Linux isn't the only FLOSS community.
This is my last reply to this issue, at the moment I'm helping people to
fix their Linux, so I'm short of time. I help them without comments to
use Google, this will make them using cracked Windows stuff instead and
this also would hurt FLOSS.
Btw. Patrick, please run ntpdate or sntp, it's hard to puzzle your
replies into the right order.
Ralf
9:55 a.m.
Patrick Shirkey wrote:
On 08/06/2009 11:24 PM, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
Phew ;) so you don't get me wrong :).
Now I should write that I know many people having time issues on Linux
too, but never on Windows :D. I'm just kidding, I never heard about
this. I run ntpdate manually, I enabled it being automated and I don't
like sntp, because I don't understand that there's the need to change
names for common commands ... but my favourite distro stays at ntpdate :).
Aaaargh, time to take a look at the clock.
It seems to be, that I have no time to annoy anybody now ;).
Btw. I subscribed to the list because I someone recommended it, while I
tried to program for Linux. But I never came above "Hello MIDI" ;).
Ralf
Btw. Patrick, please run ntpdate or sntp, it's hard to puzzle your
replies into the right order.
Gnome issue with time setting...
Thanks for pointing it out.
5:31 a.m.
Grammostola Rosea wrote:
David Robillard wrote:
You know that I completely agree not to recommend Linux real-time audio,
resp. it depends to the hardware and needs. 64 Studio 3.0-beta3 on my
machine is fine out of the box, excepted of the MIDI jitter sent to
external equipment and this wasn't solvable by using different sequencer
timer sources Rui added to Qtractor, just because of my troubles. Making
the USB MIDI device head of all MIDI devices by rtirq or anything else,
e.g. compiling and patching an individual kernel also didn't help for
other installations I tested.
I guess if somebody just want to use Ardour and Rosegarden or Qtractor
by using virtual synth only, this seems to work for most machines out of
the box by using 64 Studio. I guess for the beta there only needs to be
edit /etc/security/limits.conf if somebody wants to use Ardour.
I know a lot of people having the same trouble with JACK I had. JACK1
disconnected clients, but e.g. 64 Studio beta now comes with JACK2 out
of the box, so a newbie don't need to do anything, he won't run into
this trouble. Step by step some problems were solved.
There are some things missing for a Linux studio in the box, that is
available for Mac and Windows, but for people like me, having external
studio equipment this isn't a big problem.
If we don't no the needs of a user and what equipment he has got,
recommending Linux is impossible. For some machines there still seems to
be a problem to use the installers or they got troubles because even the
VESA driver isn't fine, but this isn't a problem just for real-time
audio Linux.
Ralf
OT: In theory the system timer for today's real-time kernels should be
the best solution, that's why Rui first made only this timer available
by Qtractor, but anyway, for my machine it's PCM playback, but even this
one isn't fine.
On Wed, 2009-08-05 at 21:53 +0200, Jens M
Andreasen wrote:
IMO without a ton of effort Jack could, and should, be turned into a
viable default installation audio system (or the bottom layer of such a
system, at least). The desktop guys certainly aren't ever going to get
it right.
The above problem is a very real one as far as people's perception of
GNU/Linux as an audio system. What a mess. We can do better.
-dr
Linux audio is a total mess... a normal human being can't work with pro
audio on Linux, unless he/she spent hours and hours to learn the little
tricks or he has an expert available who helps him...
I spent 5 hours last week to help somebody to get his (pro) audio
working on Linux... He says to his girlfriend, you better spend a 1000
euro's for such a white macbook, then things just work...
I don't know if I can really recommend Linux for pro audio to normal
human beings... at least I should say, you need a lot of time, not easy
give up on things and a lot of patience...
I don't know if there is a connection between LAD and the distro
builders, but it seems there is need for change somewhere...
Kim did the switch (nice article), but he has an other background then
most of the people who works on Desktops and in studios...
From TFA:
--8<----------------------------------
Go to System->Preferences->Sound, click on the Devices tab, and check
out the pulldown menu next to ‘Sound Events’ at the top of the panel.
You will see various acronyms, possibly including cryptic-looking
technologies like OSS, ESD, ALSA, JACK, and Pulse Audio. These acronyms
represent a byzantine tangle of conflicting technologies that over time,
and due to political reasons or backwards compatibility, have ended up
cohabiting with one another. ‘Frankenstein’ might be an accurate
metaphor here.
Thankfully, there is a simpler way, which is the combination of ALSA [a
high-performance, kernel-level audio and MIDI system] and JACK [a system
for creating low-latency audio, MIDI, and sync connections between
applications and computers]. The battle-scarred among us have learned to
ignore all the other audio cruft bolted on to Ubuntu and just use ALSA
and JACK. One can think of the ALSA/JACK stack, the heart of most pro
Linux studios, as the Core Audio of Linux and in my opinion Jack should
be the first thing installed on any musicians laptop. I’d go so far as
to suggest placing it in the Startup Applications so it’s always
running.
-------------------8<--------------------------------------------------
7 Aug
7 Aug
1:10 p.m.
2009/8/6 Grammostola Rosea <rosea.grammostola(a)gmail.com>om>:
I don't know if I can really recommend Linux for
pro audio to normal
human beings... at least I should say, you need a lot of time, not easy
give up on things and a lot of patience...
How much do normal human beings need pro audio production tools?
-Chuckk
--
http://www.badmuthahubbard.com
--
http://www.badmuthahubbard.com
4:25 p.m.
On Fri, 2009-08-07 at 20:10 +0300, Chuckk Hubbard wrote:
How much do normal human beings need pro audio
production tools?
According to Apple marketing research, about 10% of perfectly normal
human beings plays an instrument - mostly either guitar or keyboard -
and would also like to use their PC as a home or portable recording
studio. This is the story behind why "GarageBand" is included in their
default application suite.
You could argue that that application is not "pro" or something, but it
is still the same infrastructure that ticks behind it as it is for other
audio applications, which is what is the point in this context.
8:40 p.m.
On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 11:24 PM, Jens M
Andreasen<jens.andreasen(a)comhem.se> wrote:
On Fri, 2009-08-07 at 20:10 +0300, Chuckk Hubbard wrote:
I guess my thought was that people who want to use audio
professionally are less likely to make decisions based on what
requires the least effort, which seems to be the main bragging point
for OSX as well as the main complaint about Linux.
-Chuckk
--
http://www.badmuthahubbard.com
How much do normal human beings need pro audio
production tools?
According to Apple marketing research, about 10% of perfectly normal
human beings plays an instrument - mostly either guitar or keyboard -
and would also like to use their PC as a home or portable recording
studio. This is the story behind why "GarageBand" is included in their
default application suite.
You could argue that that application is not "pro" or something, but it
is still the same infrastructure that ticks behind it as it is for other
audio applications, which is what is the point in this context.
8:57 p.m.
Damn Reply-To-All, yet again.
On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 6:56 PM, Thomas Vecchione <seablaede(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:
On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 6:40 PM, Chuckk Hubbard <badmuthahubbard(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:
I guess my thought was that people who want to
use audio
professionally are less likely to make decisions based on what
requires the least effort, which seems to be the main bragging point
for OSX as well as the main complaint about Linux.
They are more likely to choose what works for them.
Which for many people OS X works for them out of the box. Linux doesn't
even come close at this point to doing so out of the box for most people.
So lets say I am an audio professional about to upgrade, ignoring financial
things for the moment for various reasons. I have a choice. I can either
go with OS X and get an experience that works out of the box for what I need
it to. Or I can go with Linux and spend hours learning a new OS and
tinkering with the commandline, before I can even start to work
professionally.
For many people there isn't much choice there.
Seablade
8 Aug
8 Aug
12:49 p.m.
On Sat, 2009-08-08 at 03:40 +0300, Chuckk Hubbard wrote:
On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 11:24 PM, Jens M
Andreasen<jens.andreasen(a)comhem.se> wrote:
I have met a lot of people into computer music over the years. I doubt
a single one of them would call themselves a "professional".
It's not 1975 anymore, recording things are used far, far more often by
"normal people" (musicians) than by Professional Recording
Engineers(R)(TM).
Either way, this line of thinking is nothing but an excuse. OK,
"professional" this and "professional" that. So what? Everything
should be unnecessarily difficult to set up and poorly built? Because
it's "professional"? No.
I call this nonsense EDD: excuse driven development. The world's
leading development methodology for creating garbage software.
-dr
On Fri, 2009-08-07 at 20:10 +0300, Chuckk Hubbard wrote:
I guess my thought was that people who want to use audio
professionally are less likely to make decisions based on what
requires the least effort, which seems to be the main bragging point
for OSX as well as the main complaint about Linux. How much do normal human beings need pro audio
production tools?
According to Apple marketing research, about 10% of perfectly normal
human beings plays an instrument - mostly either guitar or keyboard -
and would also like to use their PC as a home or portable recording
studio. This is the story behind why "GarageBand" is included in their
default application suite.
You could argue that that application is not "pro" or something, but it
is still the same infrastructure that ticks behind it as it is for other
audio applications, which is what is the point in this context.
11 Aug
11 Aug
10:07 a.m.
On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 7:49 PM, David Robillard<dave(a)drobilla.net> wrote:
On Sat, 2009-08-08 at 03:40 +0300, Chuckk Hubbard
wrote:
To be fair, what I responded to was cut out:
On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 11:24 PM, Jens M
Andreasen<jens.andreasen(a)comhem.se> wrote:
I have met a lot of people into computer music over the years. I doubt
a single one of them would call themselves a "professional".
It's not 1975 anymore, recording things are used far, far more often by
"normal people" (musicians) than by Professional Recording
Engineers(R)(TM).
Either way, this line of thinking is nothing but an excuse. OK,
"professional" this and "professional" that. So what? Everything
should be unnecessarily difficult to set up and poorly built? Because
it's "professional"? No.
I call this nonsense EDD: excuse driven development. The world's
leading development methodology for creating garbage software.
On Fri, 2009-08-07 at 20:10 +0300, Chuckk Hubbard wrote:
I guess my thought was that people who want to use audio
professionally are less likely to make decisions based on what
requires the least effort, which seems to be the main bragging point
for OSX as well as the main complaint about Linux. How much do normal human beings need pro audio
production tools?
According to Apple marketing research, about 10% of perfectly normal
human beings plays an instrument - mostly either guitar or keyboard -
and would also like to use their PC as a home or portable recording
studio. This is the story behind why "GarageBand" is included in their
default application suite.
You could argue that that application is not "pro" or something, but it
is still the same infrastructure that ticks behind it as it is for other
audio applications, which is what is the point in this context. I don't know if I can really recommend Linux for
pro audio to normal
human beings... at least I should say, you need a lot of time, not easy
give up on things and a lot of patience...
Maybe I misinterpreted what Ralf meant by pro audio.
It doesn't seem like much new is being said here. No one has tried to
claim that Linux is easier to use out-of-the-box than Mac OSX, though
some have hinted it could be as easy; I don't know as I don't use
Ubuntu nor a heavyweight window manager. No one has tried to claim
that OSX can be customized to perform as well as Linux with the right
know-how, though I've cleverly avoided actually saying it can't be. I
don't think it can, but I have no reason to try. I've argued that
people who take what they do pretty seriously shouldn't shy away from
spending more time in order to know their tools more deeply, and some
have said that the same people shouldn't shy away from spending more
money for intuitive software, or spending more money for faster
hardware rather than tuning one's OS.
What anyone chooses is up to them, but I can't bring myself to agree
that someone who wants to take their control of their music/audio to
the umpteenth level should shy away from learning to compile a kernel
and edit a few configuration files. Whether that person is what is
understood by "professional" is another question. Others would
understand by "professional" someone who doesn't spend time on
anything his paying clients won't notice.
-Chuckk
--
http://www.badmuthahubbard.com
6 Aug
6 Aug
12:07 a.m.
On 08/06/2009 03:16 AM, David Robillard wrote:
On Wed, 2009-08-05 at 21:53 +0200, Jens M Andreasen
wrote:
IMO without a ton of effort Jack could, and should, be turned into a
viable default installation audio system (or the bottom layer of such a
system, at least). The desktop guys certainly aren't ever going to get
it right.
The above problem is a very real one as far as people's perception of
GNU/Linux as an audio system. What a mess. We can do better.
AFAICT it's like 95% there already as far as the average user is
concerned. So the desktop guys you are referring to have got it and are
way ahead of anyone else in this respect.
Pulse is ubiquitous now. Jack was never intended to be the default audio
system for desktop use.
Let's just fix the interaction between pulse and jack and be done with it.
It's harmful to suggest that it things are less than they are as it just
makes people who have already invested a lot of effort get annoyed and
turned off.
Patrick Shirkey
Boost Hardware Ltd
From TFA:
--8<----------------------------------
Go to System->Preferences->Sound, click on the Devices tab, and check
out the pulldown menu next to ‘Sound Events’ at the top of the panel.
You will see various acronyms, possibly including cryptic-looking
technologies like OSS, ESD, ALSA, JACK, and Pulse Audio. These acronyms
represent a byzantine tangle of conflicting technologies that over time,
and due to political reasons or backwards compatibility, have ended up
cohabiting with one another. ‘Frankenstein’ might be an accurate
metaphor here.
Thankfully, there is a simpler way, which is the combination of ALSA [a
high-performance, kernel-level audio and MIDI system] and JACK [a system
for creating low-latency audio, MIDI, and sync connections between
applications and computers]. The battle-scarred among us have learned to
ignore all the other audio cruft bolted on to Ubuntu and just use ALSA
and JACK. One can think of the ALSA/JACK stack, the heart of most pro
Linux studios, as the Core Audio of Linux and in my opinion Jack should
be the first thing installed on any musicians laptop. I’d go so far as
to suggest placing it in the Startup Applications so it’s always
running.
-------------------8<--------------------------------------------------
-dr
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-dev mailing list
Linux-audio-dev(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
4:22 a.m.
Patrick Shirkey wrote:
On 08/06/2009 03:16 AM, David Robillard wrote:
+1
On Wed, 2009-08-05 at 21:53 +0200, Jens M
Andreasen wrote:
IMO without a ton of effort Jack could, and should, be turned into a
viable default installation audio system (or the bottom layer of such a
system, at least). The desktop guys certainly aren't ever going to get
it right.
The above problem is a very real one as far as people's perception of
GNU/Linux as an audio system. What a mess. We can do better.
AFAICT it's like 95% there already as far as the average user is
concerned. So the desktop guys you are referring to have got it and
are way ahead of anyone else in this respect.
Pulse is ubiquitous now. Jack was never intended to be the default
audio system for desktop use.
Let's just fix the interaction between pulse and jack and be done with it. From TFA:
--8<----------------------------------
Go to System->Preferences->Sound, click on the Devices tab, and check
out the pulldown menu next to ‘Sound Events’ at the top of the panel.
You will see various acronyms, possibly including cryptic-looking
technologies like OSS, ESD, ALSA, JACK, and Pulse Audio. These acronyms
represent a byzantine tangle of conflicting technologies that over time,
and due to political reasons or backwards compatibility, have ended up
cohabiting with one another. ‘Frankenstein’ might be an accurate
metaphor here.
Thankfully, there is a simpler way, which is the combination of ALSA [a
high-performance, kernel-level audio and MIDI system] and JACK [a system
for creating low-latency audio, MIDI, and sync connections between
applications and computers]. The battle-scarred among us have learned to
ignore all the other audio cruft bolted on to Ubuntu and just use ALSA
and JACK. One can think of the ALSA/JACK stack, the heart of most pro
Linux studios, as the Core Audio of Linux and in my opinion Jack should
be the first thing installed on any musicians laptop. I’d go so far as
to suggest placing it in the Startup Applications so it’s always
running.
-------------------8<--------------------------------------------------
It's harmful to suggest that it things are less than they are as it
just makes people who have already invested a lot of effort get
annoyed and turned off.
Linux audio is not bad, not at all... but for newbies it
can be pretty
difficult to get the right configuration, if would be nice if 'we' could
improve that, and yes fixing the interaction between pulse and jack is
maybe a large part of that and afaik it's already in progress and will
hit the coming distro releases...
So sorry if I sounded to negative... I just wanted to say that it isn't
always surprising that people don't convert easily to Linux for pro
audio... and that I would love to see that improving.
Kind regards,
\r
12:13 p.m.
On Thu, 2009-08-06 at 14:07 +0700, Patrick Shirkey wrote:
On 08/06/2009 03:16 AM, David Robillard wrote:
Pulse is also entirely useless for 'serious' audio use, making it not a
good audio system in general. It solves the desktop apps that go bonk
problem, no more. The latency is terrible, no patching, AFAIK no MIDI
involved whatsoever, daemon overhead without the potential advantages
thereof (synchronous, ala jack), etc.
On Wed, 2009-08-05 at 21:53 +0200, Jens M
Andreasen wrote:
IMO without a ton of effort Jack could, and should, be turned into a
viable default installation audio system (or the bottom layer of such a
system, at least). The desktop guys certainly aren't ever going to get
it right.
The above problem is a very real one as far as people's perception of
GNU/Linux as an audio system. What a mess. We can do better.
AFAICT it's like 95% there already as far as the average user is
concerned. So the desktop guys you are referring to have got it and
are way ahead of anyone else in this respect.
Pulse is ubiquitous now. Jack was never intended to be the default
audio system for desktop use. From TFA:
--8<----------------------------------
Go to System->Preferences->Sound, click on the Devices tab, and check
out the pulldown menu next to ‘Sound Events’ at the top of the panel.
You will see various acronyms, possibly including cryptic-looking
technologies like OSS, ESD, ALSA, JACK, and Pulse Audio. These acronyms
represent a byzantine tangle of conflicting technologies that over time,
and due to political reasons or backwards compatibility, have ended up
cohabiting with one another. ‘Frankenstein’ might be an accurate
metaphor here.
Thankfully, there is a simpler way, which is the combination of ALSA [a
high-performance, kernel-level audio and MIDI system] and JACK [a system
for creating low-latency audio, MIDI, and sync connections between
applications and computers]. The battle-scarred among us have learned to
ignore all the other audio cruft bolted on to Ubuntu and just use ALSA
and JACK. One can think of the ALSA/JACK stack, the heart of most pro
Linux studios, as the Core Audio of Linux and in my opinion Jack should
be the first thing installed on any musicians laptop. I’d go so far as
to suggest placing it in the Startup Applications so it’s always
running.
-------------------8<--------------------------------------------------
Let's just fix the interaction between pulse and
jack and be done with
it.
That is one solution.
It's harmful to suggest that it things are less
than they are
Read the user posts in this thread, or ths post that started it. Things
are as they are. Pretending everything is fantastic when it's not
doesn't help either.
Things are definitely not "fantastic" until a noob can run e.g.
hydrogen, run ardour, then record some things with a few clicks in their
cute little desktop menu. Most users don't go through the tedious
process of "setting up" everything, then writing blog posts, etc. etc.
They take one look, then decide "linux sucks for music", and go back to
Win/OSX.
This is currently a big, real problem - not an exaggeration on my part.
Neither pulse or jack solve the "THE audio system" problem, and they
don't work well together.
-dr
7 Aug
7 Aug
1:46 p.m.
Just two observations, only generally related:
If you have an OSX system without the installation discs, and you want
to install a free C/C++ compiler, the *only* way I have found is with
a download of several hundred MB from the official OSX website with
*lots* of extra stuff, examples, docs, developer's tools, for many
different languages. Surely won't matter for the majority of people
who would even consider Mac, but *why*? Why on earth would anyone make
that decision?? Especially considering that it's actually GPL software
created by someone else!
On whether Windows or Mac is more important in pro audio, I haven't
gotten so close to the "professional" audio world, but I went to a
pretty modern university, University of the Arts in Philadelphia, and
right as I was graduating they announced the decision to require ALL
students to purchase MacBooks with their own money. Not just music
students, but theater, dance, sculpture, etc., everyone! I don't know
if such a decision reflects a wide market trend in the art world (in
my mind that's impossible, the trend is towards Linux), but it
indicates some kind of power over Windows.
-Chuckk
On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 11:41 AM, Frank Barknecht<fbar(a)footils.org> wrote:
Hallo,
here's an excellent read about Kim Casone (of .microsound and this list, too)
switching from Mac to Linux:
http://createdigitalmusic.com/2009/08/04/linux-music-workflow-switching-fro…
(URL in one line)
Great work, Kim!
Ciao
--
Frank
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-dev mailing list
Linux-audio-dev(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
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http://www.badmuthahubbard.com
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days inactive
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linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org
57 comments
17 participants
participants (17)
-
Albert Graef -
Christian -
Chuckk Hubbard -
David Robillard -
Florian Schirmer -
Frank Barknecht -
Grammostola Rosea -
hermann -
Jens M Andreasen -
Jörn Nettingsmeier -
Malte Steiner -
Patrick Shirkey -
Paul Davis -
Ralf Mardorf -
Steve Harris -
Thomas Vecchione -
victor