hi Daniel Thanks for replying. I do hope you find this thread constructive. While we have a different emphasise on some things, i think our aims are broadly similar, and i dont mean to harangue you:-) actually i hesitate to send this mail as i guess it is preventing you from making your case properly. I think i made my initial point re open discussions, and the thread has mostly moved onto other areas that i dont have such strong feelings about. But anyway here goes..:-) On Wed, Jan 14, 2004 at 05:27:07PM +0000, Daniel James wrote: i dont see that. I think people are just expressing concern over developments which undermine the list. Its not about 'ownership' or 'rights', just about respect and building a commons. but I can understand some of the more serious players finding the list relatively amateurish, and desiring to move to a more serious front, but i hope that doesnt backfire. Personnally i would hate to see development fragmented any more than at present. I imagine this list is a good way to draw in new or potential developers. what do companies have if not money and resources? ok, i'm possibly using the word corporation wrongly. I will use the term large company instead. I have nothing against small companies, only large ones. And i agree that there is indeed some chance of an equitable relationship with a small company that doesnt have a large market share (and corresponding lack of influence). but i'm not clear which companies you are trying to court and why. i'll try and lighten up:-) of course. But the question is not whether it will happen but whether it should be encouraged. but large corps are where the money is. If you get a nice contract with IBM, Disney, Germany, you are set! so do you disagree that OSDL and CELF are aimed at large companies? I'm asking cos I dont know. i take it then that you want to target small companies? i certainly wouldnt say that. :-) you need developers before there can be users:-) i'm afraid i think we disagree on how useable the software is. Imo the really good software only covers some niches at present. I'm hesitant to go into details as that is a v tricky area of discussion!:-) sure but surely thats in addition to and somewhat separate from any other organisation/event? Sure they're expensive. Dont fight the 'enemy' on their own ground. The introduction of large sums of money can change anything, and usually not for the better. We have better weapons. neither of those two projects is completed yet, although jack nearly is. Just out of interest, are you a Rosegarden user? I do think that Jack is terrific, but its a hard sell against competing systems where the wiring is almost a behind the scenes feature of a highly polished user app. Jack is not enough. Yes the 'infrastructure' is pretty much there. Now its time to finish building on it. I'm afraid my experiments with Rosegarden were not encouraging. This is partly because it uses a model which i dont personally favour, but perhaps its time for me to give it another try... my point was that if the organisation is succesful then i will have to become a member if i want to have any infuence. If i disagree with the aims of the organisation and dont become a member then i will be excluded from many discussions and decisions that i perhaps have important opinions about. That is not neccesarily a bad thing, but i just want to see it done in the best possible way. a bit melodramatic perhaps:-) I just wanted to point out the potential negative effects that you had perhaps overlooked in your enthusiasm. i dont beleive there is a limited window. The effects of the GPL are only just beginning! It cant be stopped. Even if it coexists with proprietory systems, i am convinced that the successor to Linux will still be here in 20 years, and Jamin will be the default software in mastering houses worldwide. This will happen not because of promotion but because it is better. Too many people have seen the good life and cannot go back to proprietory software. i am reminded of the excellent Coen Bros film The Man Who Wasnt There. He had a good thing going but ruined it by being greedy. Of course you can find many more films with the opposite moral:-) anyway, the think the important isssues here are: 1-which companies are you courting and why? 2-is it yet the right time for promotion? Does the software really compete with proprietory products enough to justify major expenditure? (btw this is taking up way too much of my time today, so i'll probably have to go completely offline tomorrow:-)) thanks for listening:-) -- Tim Orford