18 Nov
2004
18 Nov
'04
5:49 p.m.
On Thu, 2004-11-18 at 16:09 +0100, Giuliano Pochini wrote:
No, it's not hard because there are a lot of
skilled people around, but
the card would be expensive. There was a thread about a project of "open
source" graphic card recently on lkml.
And I posted a [possibly OT] rant to that thread about how this was a
waste of time and how you could REALLY make a killing with open sound
hardware.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2004/10/23/292
I got one "right on, brother" response via private mail and that was it.
But then again half the kernel guys don't have sound cards in their
machines ;-)
Lee
18 Nov
18 Nov
6:32 p.m.
That is a damn good rant! I agree completely. Unfortunately I only do
software :-/
Jan
On Thu, 2004-11-18 at 14:16, Lee Revell wrote:
On Thu, 2004-11-18 at 16:09 +0100, Giuliano Pochini
wrote:
No, it's not hard because there are a lot of
skilled people around, but
the card would be expensive. There was a thread about a project of "open
source" graphic card recently on lkml.
And I posted a [possibly OT] rant to that thread about how this was a
waste of time and how you could REALLY make a killing with open sound
hardware.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2004/10/23/292
I got one "right on, brother" response via private mail and that was it.
But then again half the kernel guys don't have sound cards in their
machines ;-)
Lee
7:07 p.m.
On tor, 2004-11-18 at 15:16 -0500, Lee Revell wrote:
On Thu, 2004-11-18 at 16:09 +0100, Giuliano Pochini
wrote:
That was one h*ll of a comment! But I'll chime in: The problem is not
production cost. The problem is (from a salesmans point of view) what
are people willing to pay? And ..
People pay for ease of use! It is not so different from using session-
players that know their stuff. At least not costwise.
[ Of course, One of us could learn the Cello (given time ..), but
singing the soprano is a task I would not like to know ;) ]
No, it's not hard because there are a lot of
skilled people around, but
the card would be expensive. There was a thread about a project of "open
source" graphic card recently on lkml.
And I posted a [possibly OT] rant to that thread about how this was a
waste of time and how you could REALLY make a killing with open sound
hardware.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2004/10/23/292 I got one "right on, brother" response via
private mail and that was it.
But then again half the kernel guys don't have sound cards in their
machines ;-)
So much for the "Mp3 is killing the Industri" myth then? :))
Lee
--
Jens M Andreasen <jens.andreasen(a)chello.se>
19 Nov
19 Nov
1:12 p.m.
On Thu, 2004-11-18 at 15:16 -0500, Lee Revell wrote:
And I posted a [possibly OT] rant to that thread about
how this was a
waste of time and how you could REALLY make a killing with open sound
hardware.
I've been doing hardware design and device driver development as part of
my day work. Designing open source hardware is possible in theory, but I
can't see who would pay the expenses of the development. Software and
hardware required to develop a proper hardware costs thousands of euros.
Also each prototype manufacturing of the PCB is about 500€, and
components a few hundred (because not buying >1000 each). So yeah, it
would be possible for about 10000€ if not counting price for the work. I
don't have, nor willing to spend that kind of money for development of
open piece of hardware. Someone else would of course collect the money
from the sales of such hardware.
Software is different thing, you are mostly spending just time. I've
still put a few thousand euros of pure money to my software projects.
It's a different thing is someone is willing to sponsor such a project.
--
Jussi Laako <jussi.laako(a)pp.inet.fi>
3:19 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [Alsa-devel] Firewire Audio Card Support
On Fri, 2004-11-19 at 19:12 +0200, Jussi Laako wrote:
On Thu, 2004-11-18 at 15:16 -0500, Lee Revell wrote:
OK maybe you would not make a killing. I guess the real question is if
every LAU buys it, then how much do you need to make on each unit to be
worthwhile?
Compared to doing an open 3D graphics card, it sounds like a pretty good
deal. Bigger market, higher margins.
Lee
And I posted a [possibly OT] rant to that thread
about how this was a
waste of time and how you could REALLY make a killing with open sound
hardware.
I've been doing hardware design and device driver development as part of
my day work. Designing open source hardware is possible in theory, but I
can't see who would pay the expenses of the development. 
7:16 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [Alsa-devel] Firewire Audio Card Support
Lee Revell wrote:
On Fri, 2004-11-19 at 19:12 +0200, Jussi Laako wrote:
There's no law against providing windows & mac drivers for it too.
Simon Jenkins
On Thu, 2004-11-18 at 15:16 -0500, Lee Revell
wrote:
OK maybe you would not make a killing. I guess the real question is if
every LAU buys it, then how much do you need to make on each unit to be
worthwhile?
And I posted a [possibly OT] rant to that thread
about how this was a
waste of time and how you could REALLY make a killing with open sound
hardware.
I've been doing hardware design and device driver development as part of
my day work. Designing open source hardware is possible in theory, but I
can't see who would pay the expenses of the development.
3:50 p.m.
Jussi Laako wrote:
On Thu, 2004-11-18 at 15:16 -0500, Lee Revell wrote:
The expense could be spread around the participants, but yes, some
sponsorship
would be nice too.
And I posted a [possibly OT] rant to that thread
about how this was a
waste of time and how you could REALLY make a killing with open sound
hardware.
I've been doing hardware design and device driver development as part of
my day work. Designing open source hardware is possible in theory, but I
can't see who would pay the expenses of the development.
Software and
hardware required to develop a proper hardware costs thousands of euros.
So some of the work would have to be done by people who can access such
software/hardware at work.
Also each prototype manufacturing of the PCB is about
500€,
Pessimistic. I had to specify a single 6-layer board, 5 days delivery
and 100
component placements before I got an online quote approaching 500Euro. And
the price drops *fast* when you want a few more boards, a bit slower.
Its down
to 162Euro per board if you want 5 boards in 10 days. Its down to 55Euro per
board if you want 10 4-layer boards in 15 days. That's manufactured and
*assembled* (but not including the component cost). These are actual quotes
from an actual company who I've actually used.
and
components a few hundred (because not buying >1000 each).
OK...
So yeah, it
would be possible for about 10000€ if not counting price for the work.
Either you typed an extra zero here, or you're factoring in 9000+Euros for
development software and hardware, or you're expecting 10 generations of
prototype before it works, or something.
Yes, it would cost time and money, but I think you've overestimated the
per-developer cash cost.
I
don't have, nor willing to spend that kind of money for development of
open piece of hardware.
10000Euro? No, neither am I.
1500Euro? 1000Euro? Hmmmm......
Someone else would of course collect the money
from the sales of such hardware.
Maybe. Maybe not.
Software is different thing, you are mostly spending
just time. I've
still put a few thousand euros of pure money to my software projects.
It's a different thing is someone is willing to sponsor such a project.
Another option would be to find someone who'd pay us *not* to do it :)
Simon Jenkins
4:47 p.m.
On Fri, 2004-11-19 at 21:03 +0000, Simon Jenkins wrote:
Pessimistic. I had to specify a single 6-layer board,
5 days delivery
and 100 component placements before I got an online quote approaching
500Euro. And the price drops *fast* when you want a few more boards,
a bit slower. Its down to 162Euro per board if you want 5 boards in 10
days. Its down to 55Euro per board if you want 10 4-layer boards in 15
days. That's manufactured and *assembled* (but not including the
component cost). These are actual quotes from an actual company who I've
actually used.
Then it's way more cheaper at UK than it's here in Finland. What I've
been ordering the starting cost (for making the films, etc) is around
250€ and the board itself from 100 to 250€ for series of 1 board
depending on the size. Minimum line width and isolation 4-6 mils*
(because of high density chips). For two boards the cost of single board
about halves. This for 4-layer board, chemical tin, two silkscreens. For
hidden/buried vias the price goes higher because of laser drilling.
Proto boards may have to be assembled somewhere, as soldering BGA chips
by hand is a bit difficult.. ;)
>would be possible for about 10000€ if not counting
price for the work.
Either you typed an extra zero here, or you're
factoring in 9000+Euros for
development software and hardware, or you're expecting 10 generations of
prototype before it works, or something.
It contains the development software, IP blocks and cost of prototype
boards.
You can count 2000€ for license of some decent PCB CAD, 500-1000€ for
the FPGA development environment (incl. VHDL compiler and JTAG
programmer), about 2000€ for PCI-Express IP block. About 3 rounds of
prototype PCBs (3 * 500) and sack of components for the board (I think
Virtex or Stratix is around á 50€ for <10). You may also need USB,
Firewire or PCI-Ex bus analyzer and a logic analyzer, but after that the
cost goes over my figure. So I think 10k is a bit high, would be a safe
bet without too much risk for going over that in reality.
OK, the cost is around IP blocks + prototypes ~ 3700€ if your employer
allows you to use company's tools for the project. And in this case it
would be around 1700 if you are going to use 32-bit PCI and use some
ready bridge ASIC. But I think it would be stupid to start developing a
32-bit PCI card at this point when the 32-bit PCI bus is going away and
PCI-Express rather quickly replacing it.
Because something can go wrong you should have at least 20-25% margin. I
think there should be a reasonable margin for possible problems if that
kind of project is started, because what really pisses off is when you
run out of money just before hitting the goal...
Are we talking in the same context here?
* mil = 1/1000 of inch
--
Jussi Laako <jussi.laako(a)pp.inet.fi>
7:06 p.m.
Jussi Laako wrote:
You were talking about a slightly more difficult and expensive thing than I
was. I was thinking about:
1. A DSP implementation, not FPGA
2. A firewire interface, not PCI
3. Creating a "reference implementation" not a finished product.
Compiler cost would be a factor in choice of DSP.
The prototypes would be a platform for developing an open protocol, open
firmware (by which I meant the s/w in the DSP, not FPGA IP) and open
drivers.
Provided you stick to 4 layers a slightly misrouted first prototype can
usually be hand-modified to work. Ugly, but useable as a development
platform. So you could go straight to 5 boards (or however many
developers there are) on the first run, get them working and get on
with developing the software.
Once there was functioning h/w and s/w... well, things could go in any
number of directions.
Simon Jenkins
On Fri, 2004-11-19 at 21:03 +0000, Simon Jenkins
wrote:
My quotes included assembly. (But not BGA, for which they charge extra).
Min line width & isolation is 0.15mm, ie 5.91mils, ie just meets your
4-6 mil
requirement.
How it seems to work is: They paste everybody's boards together into a
super-
board, manufacture it, and then cut it up afterwards and send you your
bit. So
you can't have any weird requirements. The "5 days", "10 days" is
counted
from the scheduled day that they are starting their next batch, not from the
actual day of placing the order. (They start a 4-layer batch twice per week,
for example).
Pessimistic. I had to specify a single 6-layer
board, 5 days delivery
and 100 component placements before I got an online quote approaching
500Euro. And the price drops *fast* when you want a few more boards,
a bit slower. Its down to 162Euro per board if you want 5 boards in 10
days. Its down to 55Euro per board if you want 10 4-layer boards in 15
days. That's manufactured and *assembled* (but not including the
component cost). These are actual quotes from an actual company who I've
actually used.
Then it's way more cheaper at UK than it's here in Finland. What I've
been ordering the starting cost (for making the films, etc) is around
250€ and the board itself from 100 to 250€ for series of 1 board
depending on the size. Minimum line width and isolation 4-6 mils*
(because of high density chips). For two boards the cost of single board
about halves. This for 4-layer board, chemical tin, two silkscreens. For
hidden/buried vias the price goes higher because of laser drilling.
Proto boards may have to be assembled somewhere, as soldering BGA chips
by hand is a bit difficult.. ;)
>would be
possible for about 10000€ if not counting price for the work.
>
>
Either you typed an extra zero here, or you're
factoring in 9000+Euros for
development software and hardware, or you're expecting 10 generations of
prototype before it works, or something.
It contains the development software, IP blocks and cost of prototype
boards.
You can count 2000€ for license of some decent PCB CAD, 500-1000€ for
the FPGA development environment (incl. VHDL compiler and JTAG
programmer), about 2000€ for PCI-Express IP block. About 3 rounds of
prototype PCBs (3 * 500) and sack of components for the board (I think
Virtex or Stratix is around á 50€ for <10). You may also need USB,
Firewire or PCI-Ex bus analyzer and a logic analyzer, but after that the
cost goes over my figure. So I think 10k is a bit high, would be a safe
bet without too much risk for going over that in reality.
OK, the cost is around IP blocks + prototypes ~ 3700€ if your employer
allows you to use company's tools for the project. And in this case it
would be around 1700 if you are going to use 32-bit PCI and use some
ready bridge ASIC. But I think it would be stupid to start developing a
32-bit PCI card at this point when the 32-bit PCI bus is going away and
PCI-Express rather quickly replacing it.
Because something can go wrong you should have at least 20-25% margin. I
think there should be a reasonable margin for possible problems if that
kind of project is started, because what really pisses off is when you
run out of money just before hitting the goal...
Are we talking in the same context here?
9:43 p.m.
On Sat, 2004-11-20 at 00:19 +0000, Simon Jenkins wrote:
You were talking about a slightly more difficult and
expensive thing than I
was. I was thinking about:
1. A DSP implementation, not FPGA
2. A firewire interface, not PCI
3. Creating a "reference implementation" not a finished product.
I like the idea of a DSP-less reference implementation, then maybe a low
end and a high end DSP option. This has the side benefit of making the
choice of DSP more modular. Also some people just like DSPs, and some
people are into host signal processing...
Lee
20 Nov
20 Nov
12:02 a.m.
Lee Revell wrote:
On Sat, 2004-11-20 at 00:19 +0000, Simon Jenkins
wrote:
I was thinking of just enough DSP power to handle the protocol and to move
and buffer the data between I/O and host. I didn't mean actually doing audio
signal processing on the DSP itself, I just meant using one as a more
convenient
and accessible platform for developing the protocol than an FPGA.
Given the protocol someone might then come along and implement it in an
FPGA, or they might use a more powerful DSP and start doing some serious
signal processing on the board itself. They might even stick fairly
close to the
reference design if its any good. The real point of the development effort
would be an open protocol: The reference hardware design would just be a
means to that end.
Simon Jenkins
You were talking about a slightly more difficult
and expensive thing than I
was. I was thinking about:
1. A DSP implementation, not FPGA
2. A firewire interface, not PCI
3. Creating a "reference implementation" not a finished product.
I like the idea of a DSP-less reference implementation, then maybe a low
end and a high end DSP option. This has the side benefit of making the
choice of DSP more modular. Also some people just like DSPs, and some
people are into host signal processing...
19 Nov
19 Nov
7:23 p.m.
On Fri, 2004-11-19 at 21:03 +0000, Simon Jenkins wrote:
This book is few years old but it makes the hardware DSP development
side look pretty easy:
http://www.dspguide.com/ch29.htm
Does anyone know if this kit can still be had for $179?
Lee
Jussi Laako wrote:
Agreed, starting from scratch would be tough, unlike a software
company... But a few thousand Euros is a drop in the bucket to a company
with an existing revenue stream and some expertise in the area. That
was why I posted that rant to LKML, in hopes that some hardware people
were reading and would do the math.
(All this talk of Euros, sometimes I feel like the only American LAD...)
On Thu, 2004-11-18 at 15:16 -0500, Lee Revell
wrote:
The expense could be spread around the participants, but yes, some
sponsorship
would be nice too.
And I posted a [possibly OT] rant to that thread
about how this was a
waste of time and how you could REALLY make a killing with open sound
hardware.
I've been doing hardware design and device driver development as part of
my day work. Designing open source hardware is possible in theory, but I
can't see who would pay the expenses of the development.
Software and
hardware required to develop a proper hardware costs thousands of euros.
So some of the work would have to be done by people who can access such
software/hardware at work. 
7:41 p.m.
On Fri, Nov 19, 2004 at 04:19:06 -0500, Lee Revell wrote:
This book is few years old but it makes the hardware
DSP development
side look pretty easy:
http://www.dspguide.com/ch29.htm
Does anyone know if this kit can still be had for $179?
I think there $400 in units of 1000:
http://www.analog.com/processors/productsDatasheets/evaluationKits.html
I would guess more for single units.
- Steve
7105
days inactive
7106
days old
linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org
12 comments
6 participants
participants (6)
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Jan Depner -
Jens M Andreasen -
Jussi Laako -
Lee Revell -
Simon Jenkins -
Steve Harris