18 Jun
2010
18 Jun
'10
9:32 a.m.
Hello everybody!
When using an LV2 synth within a sequencer, I was told that the host has no
way to access audio which is produced by the plugin so such a basic thing as
rendering your whole project to wav appears to be impossible.
I want to ask if this is true and whether this can somehow be changed. In my
opinion, if the above is true, this is a very serious limitation of LV2.
--
Louigi Verona
http://www.louigiverona.ru/
18 Jun
18 Jun
10:03 a.m.
On Fri, 18 Jun 2010 11:32:54 +0400, Louigi Verona
<louigi.verona(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
Hello everybody!
When using an LV2 synth within a sequencer, I was told that the host has
no
way to access audio which is produced by the plugin so
such a basic
thing
as
rendering your whole project to wav appears to be impossible.
I want to ask if this is true and whether this can somehow be changed.
In
my opinion, if the above is true, this is a very
serious limitation of
LV2.
there's no limitation on lv2.
i think you misunderstood something, but any lv2 host has obvious access
to the audio stream produced by _any_ plugin. how could it be otherwise?
your question seems to pertain on rendering audio that is produced by midi
instrument plugins _faster_than_realtime_ .
i also think you are inferring from qtractor as the sequencer. that's
true: qtractor cannot render midi instruments audio in no other way than
real-time. so that for you to export the whole session (song or project)
you'll have to bounce (record) all midi instruments audio output into spare
audio tracks and then, when all is perfectly realigned to compensate for
round-trip delay, you can mix-down and export all audio tracks into a
single audio file.
theoretically, any jack-midi plugin host can do the faster-then-realtime
trick, thanks to the jack-freewheel mode of operation. alas, qtractor is
not a jack-midi host, although it does the freewheel dance to export audio,
as ardour2 does. speaking of which, ardour3 may well confirm this theory ;)
cheers
--
rncbc aka Rui Nuno Capela
rncbc(a)rncbc.org
10:16 a.m.
On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 12:02 PM, Rui Nuno Capela <rncbc(a)rncbc.org> wrote:
there's no limitation on lv2.
i think you misunderstood something, but any lv2 host has obvious access
to the audio stream produced by _any_ plugin. how could it be otherwise?
your question seems to pertain on rendering audio that is produced by midi
instrument plugins _faster_than_realtime_ .
i also think you are inferring from qtractor as the sequencer. that's
true: qtractor cannot render midi instruments audio in no other way than
real-time. so that for you to export the whole session (song or project)
you'll have to bounce (record) all midi instruments audio output into spare
audio tracks and then, when all is perfectly realigned to compensate for
round-trip delay, you can mix-down and export all audio tracks into a
single audio file.
theoretically, any jack-midi plugin host can do the faster-then-realtime
trick, thanks to the jack-freewheel mode of operation. alas, qtractor is
not a jack-midi host, although it does the freewheel dance to export audio,
as ardour2 does. speaking of which, ardour3 may well confirm this theory ;)
cheers
--
rncbc aka Rui Nuno Capela
rncbc(a)rncbc.org
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-dev mailing list
Linux-audio-dev(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
How is that done on Windows then? I never heard of any problems there? When
you use VST, it renders them fine
and Windows has no JACK.
ps: sorry if my questions are silly, I really am trying to understand
--
Louigi Verona
http://www.louigiverona.ru/
10:24 a.m.
Louigi Verona wrote:
On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 12:02 PM, Rui Nuno Capela <rncbc(a)rncbc.org
<mailto:rncbc@rncbc.org>> wrote:
there's no limitation on lv2.
i think you misunderstood something, but any lv2 host has obvious
access
to the audio stream produced by _any_ plugin. how could it be
otherwise?
your question seems to pertain on rendering audio that is produced
by midi
instrument plugins _faster_than_realtime_ .
i also think you are inferring from qtractor as the sequencer. that's
true: qtractor cannot render midi instruments audio in no other
way than
real-time. so that for you to export the whole session (song or
project)
you'll have to bounce (record) all midi instruments audio output
into spare
audio tracks and then, when all is perfectly realigned to
compensate for
round-trip delay, you can mix-down and export all audio tracks into a
single audio file.
theoretically, any jack-midi plugin host can do the
faster-then-realtime
trick, thanks to the jack-freewheel mode of operation. alas,
qtractor is
not a jack-midi host, although it does the freewheel dance to
export audio,
as ardour2 does. speaking of which, ardour3 may well confirm this
theory ;)
cheers
--
rncbc aka Rui Nuno Capela
rncbc(a)rncbc.org <mailto:rncbc@rncbc.org>
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-dev mailing list
Linux-audio-dev(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
<mailto:Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org>
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
How is that done on Windows then? I never heard of any problems there?
When you use VST, it renders them fine
and Windows has no JACK.
ps: sorry if my questions are silly, I really am trying to understand
Are you asking for doing a stereo mastering without playing and
recording the song? I wonder if this is needed. Anyway, I'm not sure if
I do understand what exactly you are asking for by the word 'rendering'.
Is the host Qtractor? And do DSSI plugs what you want? I guess 'we' do
misunderstand what you're asking for, by your first email.
12:13 p.m.
On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 12:24 PM, Ralf Mardorf
<ralf.mardorf(a)alice-dsl.net>wrote;wrote:
Louigi Verona wrote:
No, I mean hitting "Render all song to wav" and have everything in one file.
--
Louigi Verona
http://www.louigiverona.ru/
On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 12:02 PM, Rui Nuno Capela <rncbc(a)rncbc.org<mailtomailto:
rncbc(a)rncbc.org>> wrote:
there's no limitation on lv2.
i think you misunderstood something, but any lv2 host has obvious
access
to the audio stream produced by _any_ plugin. how could it be
otherwise?
your question seems to pertain on rendering audio that is produced
by midi
instrument plugins _faster_than_realtime_ .
i also think you are inferring from qtractor as the sequencer. that's
true: qtractor cannot render midi instruments audio in no other
way than
real-time. so that for you to export the whole session (song or
project)
you'll have to bounce (record) all midi instruments audio output
into spare
audio tracks and then, when all is perfectly realigned to
compensate for
round-trip delay, you can mix-down and export all audio tracks into a
single audio file.
theoretically, any jack-midi plugin host can do the
faster-then-realtime
trick, thanks to the jack-freewheel mode of operation. alas,
qtractor is
not a jack-midi host, although it does the freewheel dance to
export audio,
as ardour2 does. speaking of which, ardour3 may well confirm this
theory ;)
cheers
--
rncbc aka Rui Nuno Capela
rncbc(a)rncbc.org <mailto:rncbc@rncbc.org>
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-dev mailing list
Linux-audio-dev(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
<mailto:Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org>
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
How is that done on Windows then? I never heard of any problems there?
When you use VST, it renders them fine
and Windows has no JACK.
ps: sorry if my questions are silly, I really am trying to understand
Are you asking for doing a stereo mastering without playing and recording
the song? I wonder if this is needed. Anyway, I'm not sure if I do
understand what exactly you are asking for by the word 'rendering'. Is the
host Qtractor? And do DSSI plugs what you want? I guess 'we' do
misunderstand what you're asking for, by your first email.
1:52 p.m.
On Friday 18 June 2010 06:13:16 Louigi Verona wrote:
No, I mean hitting "Render all song to wav"
and have everything in one
file.
--
Louigi Verona
http://www.louigiverona.ru/
Perhapsjust use jack and hook it up to a simple stereo recorder?
all the best,
drew
2 p.m.
Excerpts from Louigi Verona's message of 2010-06-18 12:13:16 +0200:
On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 12:24 PM, Ralf Mardorf
<ralf.mardorf(a)alice-dsl.net>wrote;wrote:
So what you want is a downmix of the whole project into a stereo file?
Rui made clear that it's not possible with midi faster than realtime
because of something with alsa sequencer. Question is, can it do it in
realtime or do you need to record it with an external app (as
suggested).
--
Regards,
Philipp
--
"Wir stehen selbst enttäuscht und sehn betroffen / Den Vorhang zu und alle Fragen
offen." Bertolt Brecht, Der gute Mensch von Sezuan
Louigi Verona wrote:
No, I mean hitting "Render all song to wav" and have everything in one file.
On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 12:02 PM, Rui Nuno Capela <rncbc(a)rncbc.org<mailtomailto:
rncbc(a)rncbc.org>> wrote:
there's no limitation on lv2.
i think you misunderstood something, but any lv2 host has obvious
access
to the audio stream produced by _any_ plugin. how could it be
otherwise?
your question seems to pertain on rendering audio that is produced
by midi
instrument plugins _faster_than_realtime_ .
i also think you are inferring from qtractor as the sequencer. that's
true: qtractor cannot render midi instruments audio in no other
way than
real-time. so that for you to export the whole session (song or
project)
you'll have to bounce (record) all midi instruments audio output
into spare
audio tracks and then, when all is perfectly realigned to
compensate for
round-trip delay, you can mix-down and export all audio tracks into a
single audio file.
theoretically, any jack-midi plugin host can do the
faster-then-realtime
trick, thanks to the jack-freewheel mode of operation. alas,
qtractor is
not a jack-midi host, although it does the freewheel dance to
export audio,
as ardour2 does. speaking of which, ardour3 may well confirm this
theory ;)
cheers
--
rncbc aka Rui Nuno Capela
rncbc(a)rncbc.org <mailto:rncbc@rncbc.org>
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-dev mailing list
Linux-audio-dev(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
<mailto:Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org>
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
How is that done on Windows then? I never heard of any problems there?
When you use VST, it renders them fine
and Windows has no JACK.
ps: sorry if my questions are silly, I really am trying to understand
Are you asking for doing a stereo mastering without playing and recording
the song? I wonder if this is needed. Anyway, I'm not sure if I do
understand what exactly you are asking for by the word 'rendering'. Is the
host Qtractor? And do DSSI plugs what you want? I guess 'we' do
misunderstand what you're asking for, by your first email.
2:55 p.m.
Yes, recording by channeling audio into external app is an option, however
it has an inherent flow: if you have lots of synth loaded and playback is
not exactly perfect, you will not be able to record the tune without xruns
crippling right into the master mix. And so it would mean that you have to
do workarounds instead of just pressing one button and rendering the whole
song.
Again, this is, as far as I understand, the difference between what I call
acoustic and electronic methods of making music
(short definition, explaining what I mean is here, just so that we do not
misunderstand:
http://www.louigiverona.ru/?page=projects&s=writings&t=linux&a=…)
So far Linux Audio is aimed mostly at making acoustic type music. My mission
(hehe) is to draw attention of developers to another type of music which is
equally as important - electronic type music. And this type of music
requires non-real time work rather than real time. At least when it concerns
final rendering.
Cheers!
Louigi.
3:10 p.m.
On Friday 18 June 2010 08:55:16 Louigi Verona wrote:
And this type of music
requires non-real time work rather than real time. At least when it
concerns final rendering.
But in the case you are speaking of, slower than real time rather than faster
than real time right?
Resulting from too much processing needed for all the various tracks and
effects.
Cheers!
Louigi.
all the best,
drew
3:14 p.m.
On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 5:10 PM, drew Roberts <zotz(a)100jamz.com> wrote:
On Friday 18 June 2010 08:55:16 Louigi Verona wrote:
drew,
at this point I'd like to get an expert explanation of what is slower than
real time and faster than real time. I don't know what it means %)
--
Louigi Verona
http://www.louigiverona.ru/
And this type of music
requires non-real time work rather than real time. At least when it
concerns final rendering.
But in the case you are speaking of, slower than real time rather than
faster
than real time right?
Resulting from too much processing needed for all the various tracks and
effects.
Cheers!
Louigi.
all the best,
drew
3:19 p.m.
On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 05:14:31PM +0400, Louigi Verona wrote:
at this point I'd like to get an expert
explanation of what is slower than
real time and faster than real time. I don't know what it means %)
Put simply: if you have a 3mins song and rendering it to a file takes
exactly 3mins, then this is realtime. If it takes more than 3mins to
"calculate" the song, it's "slower than realtime", if it takes
less,
than it's "faster than realtime".
--
mail: adi(a)thur.de http://adi.thur.de PGP/GPG: key via keyserver
3:22 p.m.
On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 5:19 PM, Adrian Knoth <adi(a)drcomp.erfurt.thur.de>wrote;wrote:
On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 05:14:31PM +0400, Louigi
Verona wrote:
Adrian, thanks!
Well, typically, on Windows where a sequencer is an IME (Integrated Music
Environment) you would choose different quality settings of rendering and
that would define how fast it is. Sometimes it might be slower, sometimes
faster.
--
Louigi Verona
http://www.louigiverona.ru/
at this point I'd like to get an expert
explanation of what is slower
than
real time and faster than real time. I don't
know what it means %)
Put simply: if you have a 3mins song and rendering it to a file takes
exactly 3mins, then this is realtime. If it takes more than 3mins to
"calculate" the song, it's "slower than realtime", if it takes
less,
than it's "faster than realtime".
--
mail: adi(a)thur.de http://adi.thur.de PGP/GPG: key via keyserver
3:22 p.m.
Adrian, thanks!
Well, typically, on Windows where a sequencer is an IME (Integrated Music
Environment) you would choose different quality settings of rendering and
that would define how fast it is. Sometimes it might be slower, sometimes
faster.
ps: LMMS has that too
--
Louigi Verona
http://www.louigiverona.ru/
11:07 a.m.
On Fri, 18 Jun 2010 12:16:19 +0400, Louigi Verona wrote:
When
On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 12:02 PM, Rui Nuno Capela
wrote:
>
> there's no limitation on lv2.
>
> i think you misunderstood something, but any lv2 host has obvious
access
> to the audio stream produced by _any_ plugin. how
could it be
otherwise?
>
> your question seems to pertain on rendering audio that is produced by
> midi instrument plugins _faster_than_realtime_ .
>
> i also think you are inferring from qtractor as the sequencer. that's
> true: qtractor cannot render midi instruments audio in no other way
than
> real-time. so that for you to export the whole
session (song or
project)
> you'll have to bounce (record) all midi
instruments audio output into
> spare audio tracks and then, when all is perfectly realigned to
> compensate for round-trip delay, you can mix-down and export all audio
> tracks into a single audio file.
>
> theoretically, any jack-midi plugin host can do the
faster-then-realtime
> trick, thanks to the jack-freewheel mode of
operation. alas, qtractor
is
> not a jack-midi host, although it does the
freewheel dance to export
> audio, as ardour2 does. speaking of which, ardour3 may well confirm
this
theory ;)
How is that done on Windows then? I never heard of any problems there? you use VST, it renders them fine
and Windows has no JACK.
you're pervading the issue ;) don't do that! :)
alas, in case you did not read between the lines, *it is* a qtractor
limitation, one that i'm afraid won't go away any day soon. but it might,
some day, somehow ;)
ps: sorry if my questions are silly, I really am
trying to understand
if questions are silly answers should be sillier. are they?
cheers
--
rncbc aka Rui Nuno Capela
rncbc(a)rncbc.org
10:04 a.m.
On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 9:32 AM, Louigi Verona <louigi.verona(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hello everybody!
When using an LV2 synth within a sequencer, I was told that the host has no
way to access audio which is produced by the plugin so such a basic thing as
rendering your whole project to wav appears to be impossible.
This is obviously absurd. The host provides the plugin with a buffer
so the plugin can process it. The host then continues processing the
plugin data (thus accessing it) until it ultimately ends up delivering
it to the audio card driver, normally by means of an audio server like
alsa, pulse or jack.
Rendering to a file is perfectly possible within any plugin standard,
you just need a _host_ that dumps that data to a file instead of to an
audio server.
27 Jul
27 Jul
9:50 a.m.
I just read this question, processing tons of collected mails from all three lists.
Sorry for naivety or that I am trying to be cute, but in this case host should be unable
also to output sound from LV2 plugins. IMHO, any plugin, being a part of some host, can
only give it data and receive them from it.
Check me.
2:53 p.m.
On 2010.07.27. 9:50, Mike Cookson wrote:
I just read this question, processing tons of
collected mails from all three lists.
Sorry for naivety or that I am trying to be cute, but in this case host should be unable
also to output sound from LV2 plugins. IMHO, any plugin, being a part of some host, can
only give it data and receive them from it.
Check me.
Well, LADSPA (and afaik, LV2 also) plugins are made to exchange data
between the any host indiscriminately. They don't care where data comes
from (besides memory location) and they don't care what is done after
data is given back to host.
Since there are host software for various purposes, it is their problem
to output data in one way or another.
You can of course write "output plugin", but it kind of beats the
purpose. Since host must be aware of these "output plugins" they are not
"indiscriminate" to host and they "care" what happens to data.
Regards,
JohnLM
5266
days inactive
5305
days old
linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org
16 comments
9 participants
participants (9)
-
Adrian Knoth -
drew Roberts -
JohnLM -
Louigi Verona -
Luis Garrido -
Mike Cookson -
Philipp Überbacher -
Ralf Mardorf -
Rui Nuno Capela