Linux-audio-user February 2013

linux-audio-user@lists.linuxaudio.org

142 participants
178 discussions

Re: [LAU] [LAD] So what do you think sucks about Linux audio ?

by Ralf Mardorf

On Tue, 2013-02-05 at 12:34 -0800, Len Ovens wrote: > On Tue, February 5, 2013 8:10 am, Dave Phillips wrote: > > On 02/05/2013 10:42 AM, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > >> On Tue, 2013-02-05 at 10:37 -0500, Dave Phillips wrote: > >>> I've found a simple metric. Just open a Sweetwater catalog to the pages > >>> for computer audio interfaces and count the ones with Linux support. > >> How do you ensure that an audio device _really_ is supported? > >> > >> > > > > Hi Ralf, > > > > Well, since I don't really know what you really mean by "really" > > supported, I'll hazard my own method: > > > > if (device != FIREWIRE_DEVICE) > > check (ALSA && 4Front) > > print status > > else > > check FFADO > > print status > > endif > > > > Wrt USB: The snd-usb-audio module is an ALSA module, but class > > compliance makes things a little more difficult. My method wrt USB > > compatibility is to ask Clemens. :) > > Most good music stores will let you try before buying. I take my computer > right into the store and plug things in. It does mean I don't buy stuff > that requires extra tweaks... just stuff that "just works". > > This approach also lets those who run these stores know linux users are > out there and that they do buy based on "works with linux". In Germany there aren't much stores, but anyway, if you order hardware, you can give it back and then you get your money back. But that does mean that you always need to completely test the hardware when you buy it, something that isn't always possible. I bought my card, but completely tested it a year after I bought it. Regards, Ralf

13 years

Re: [LAU] [LAD] So what do you think sucks about Linux audio ?

by Ralf Mardorf

On Tue, 2013-02-05 at 12:15 -0500, Paul Davis wrote: > On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 11:55 AM, Jostein Chr. Andersen > <jostein(a)vait.se> wrote: > > > * A very geeky community. I see very often the answer: > "read the ALSA matrix" when a poor newbie or a > curious person asks for the best soundcards for Linux. > That something works in Linux does not mean > that it's good for AUDIO recording and studio work > in general. > > > so how does this look? > > > http://ardour.org/files/aspecs.png It's disgusting, regarding to similar recommendations I bought my RME HDSPe AIO, but my HDSPe AIO can't be used for >= 12 channels, since it's not completely supported for Linux. To recommend hardware that isn't supported is bad :(. Btw. as I mentioned several times before, RME was willing to help, but no ALSA developer was interested to answer any request. On Tue, 2013-02-05 at 21:19 +0400, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: > On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 9:15 PM, Paul Davis wrote: > > > so how does this look? > > > > http://ardour.org/files/aspecs.png > > As a Focusrite Saffire 24 user who needs to start JACK twice every > time and, since Ubuntu 12.10, restart every 30 minutes, I'd think > before recommending it to a Linux user :) Absolutely love their > hardware and their attitude to clients though. > > Alexandre Prokoudine > http://libregraphicsworld.org That's why I ask how to ensure what audio device _really_ is supported. The _recommended_ device I own isn't _really_ supported. HDSPe cards are recommended for >= 12 channels, but on Linux I only can use 2 ADAT IOs of the HDSPe AIO, the other ADAT IOs aren't available and the latency is very bad, but I anyway get xruns. On Tue, 2013-02-05 at 18:42 +0100, Jostein Chr. Andersen wrote: > On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 11:55 AM, Jostein Chr. Andersen > <jostein(a)vait.se>wrote: > > > > > * A very geeky community. I see very often the answer: > > > "read the ALSA matrix" when a poor newbie or a > > > curious person asks for the best soundcards for Linux. > > > That something works in Linux does not mean > > > that it's good for AUDIO recording and studio work > > > in general. > > > > > > > so how does this look? > > > > http://ardour.org/files/aspecs.png > > > Very nice, this is a very good answer, let's hope that this URL will be > anywhere! This is helpful for me too as I'm investing in new HW this > days, thanks! :-) Not very good, simply untrue! On Tue, 2013-02-05 at 20:56 +0300, Louigi Verona wrote: > In Linux Audio excellent response I get from Rui on his Qtractor I experienced the same :). Regards, Ralf

13 years

[LAU] e: So what do you think sucks about Linux audio / what i love about linuxaudio

by jordan

Hey, > It is not a technical point about only using free software ... it is a very real copyright issue. VST is owned by Steinberg so unless you are willing to ignore/reject Copyright and IP laws > (which would be really problematic regarding your other points about encouraging commercial software on Linux) then you are very limited in how VST can be distributed in Linux. To > change that you must convince Steinberg to change the license they offer. A freely distributed program obviously cannot pay Steinberg for every downloaded copy .. so no license .. so the > potential user must compile their own version of VST support. Vestige provides a replacement for Stienberg's VSTSDK, it's been widely used for some time now, by several projects (FST, FSTHost, LMMS, Ardour, etc, etc)... I use both Windows and Linux VSTs all of the time, I don't feel restricted by Steinberg. It's pretty simple, do not rely on their header, use Vestige and their is no problem. The last time i was required to get the VSTSDK from Steinberg was quite some time ago, like 2007-8 and that was to compile/use one specific application / corner case. The only time i (still) have actually need some headers from Steinberg is for WineASIO support (asio.h), which i barely use. You are only limited in how/what can be distributed if you plan on using the VSTSDK - which would mean you are in the position of WineASIO / ASIO SDK - the end-user must get the header (asio.h) and compile WineASIO him/herself. (but even that doesn't bother me, since it takes all of 3 minutes to do). So what do I think sucks about Linux audio ? - Lack of quality virtual instruments For me, if i was not able to run Windows VSTs in Linux (more specifically, VST instruments) then using Gnu/Linux for proaudio would be very unlikely / not doable. Don't get me wrong, there ARE some good apps / plugins and a few of the commercial offerings (like Loomer, Pianoeq, etc) are great - but there just aren't enough virtual instruments for my tastes, and even the ones that do exist tend to not cover some pretty standard / basic stuff - like midi program changes, midi-learn, midiCC, MTC, MidiClock, etc. ~ which imho are standards that should be implemented in ANY plugin, but since that often isn't the case for linux plugins ~ i am better off using Windows VSTs (since they tend to implement most/if not all of this stuff and more),, These areas tend to be more biggest 'sore spot' when it comes to linuxaudio... DAWs also used to be another sore spot for me, but over the last year or so, that is changing. Ardour3 has come along way (which is my preference) and if/when BitWig Studio is released for Linux - then i will have a tool that is geared for live/performance/interactive based approach (like Ableton Live). ~ which is something that i _really_ need. Since i tend to be more geared to playing/jamming live, than recording. but there are other problematic areas that i see, but am not so much affected by. Most have been covered by other people on the list; things like configuration/setup problems, apps missing features, workflow issues, etc. But these kinds of problems, i have personally worked through, for the most part. (but it did take some adjusting / time). So what do I *love* about Linux audio ? - customization / tweakability = there are lots of flexibilities to be had, that aren't as easily done (if at all) in Win/Mac environments. You can really tailor everything to be exactly how you want. - this (obviously) includes everything from the kernel to user-space. - plethra of commandline tools / apps that work without Xorg = this is very handy, if you are running a headless system, like a rackmount and/or some sort of 'audio server' that you are interacting with. Having apps that are built to be used in this fashion is great. there also happens to be a lot of cool commandline apps floating around, a couple examples that i enjoy are aseqkey (map midi-to-keystrokes), wiimidi (for hacking wii-devices, VERY powerful software), mplit (makes jack client / 16ch midi router/splitter) and i even use jack from the commandline (no qjackctl, when i want a GUI, i instead use JP-1 (linuxDSP) because it is simpler and is 1 window). - Support for non-native VST plugins / applications = I would have never migrated to using Linux (from Mac), if i had not been able to carry over some of my plugin suites / had proper virtual instruments to use with Jackd. (again, sure there are some good native plugins for linux, but not enough for my tastes, nor any other musician that i know personally, by any means). - Community = this is particularly great. It's often fairly easy to get help with solving issues and likewise it's often easy to get in touch with XYZ app developer; give feedback, offer suggestions (such as features, UI, etc) and/or have a bug looked at/fixed. I've had great success with this, with few exceptions. I've found that most developers appreciate a little feedback and suggestions - and if you are thoughtful and put some time into presenting your ideas and/or feedback, properly - more often than not - this will lead to something positive, such as inspiring / motivating the developer(s) to implement something that you've discussed, have some issue addressed, etc. ~ I find it interestng, as well because i never had much success chatting with Windows/Mac app developers, so for me, there seems to be a big difference here. anyway, i think the future is looking promising, but i personally feel that we need more interest from commercial vendors of virtual instruments ~ I could care less whether they are VSTs - ie: they could be *LV2*, as long as they are high-quality and *implement common stuff like midiCC, program changes, midiclock* ~ without these "bare essentials" covered, XYZ plugin that is lacking these features is for the most part, of no use / interest to me. (since, they have not been designed with idea that a 'player' might actually want to use a physical device to control the plugin. - regardless, lack of having *many* good (native) virtual instruments is problematic, imo. cheers Jordan

13 years

[LAU] So what do you think sucks about Linux audio ?

by Aurélien Leblond

My 2 cents of euro on the topic :) To start and give a bit of background, I'm a software developer and a "trained" musician. I have now been using only Linux for a little bit more than 10 years and started to produce music as a hobby 4-5 years ago (a bit of auto-promo, that's what I produced with Linux already https://soundcloud.com/a-violent-whisper). For my personal use, I setup a complete audio environment on 2 different laptops and every time had issues (sound card not compatible, configuring jack, etc), BUT comparing my experience with a friend of mine who went through the same experience on Windows, I believe we shared the same pain to arrive to a stable environment. In my case, even though it was painful to buy a new soundcard and find out it wasn't working, it was a great experience to work with Daniel Mack and get it to work (Daniel you are my savior! my FTU works perfectly now). Two years ago, because I'm a nerd and like to only play with the latest cool stuff, I decided to ditch LADSPA and switch purely to LV2. Did it take a while to have a setup comparable to AlsaModularSynth? Yes... But thanks to all the effort of David Robillard on Ingen and all is valuable help to get the ams module ported, I can enjoy it all now. I read on this forum a lot of complains about the LV2 format and I just don't get why... I was/still am a noob in writing audio plugins but I found coding with LV2/LVTK to be pretty simple and straight forward. The community involved on the LAD/LAU is just so great and it does feel like a "special experience" to be part of this (although I really wish sometimes we could simply use a forum instead of mailing list, but that's my personal taste I guess). Over the course of the past 5 years, things got so much better: - Ingen is just brilliant - I wish David would release it "officially" to get more people to use it! - A few weeks ago, I asked here how I could get my loops composition workflow to improve and thanks to the community discovered Giada which helped a lot, and I'm gonna write soon here about my experience on that (@Harry: very sorry but Luppp doesn't compile with the latest version of LV2 - will write to you soon about it) - I'm a trained drummer, and found Hydrogen just brilliant... People complain about the quality of the samples - I simply bought packs (I found the Wave Alchemy one to be good and cheap enough)... Now, I never EVER worked with Mac or Windows to produce music, so I really have nothing to compare. I have a friend who professionally produce music with mac and asked me if he should switch to Linux and I answered no for one simple reason: the guy is extremely used to his workflow on mac os and is very VERY impatient. He would try it for 5 minutes and ditch it because it doesn't look like what he knows already and it doesn't work as well as his current setup. He would have the exact same problem switching to Windows (or from Linux to Mac OS if it was what he was used to). I tried to use Cubase on a friend's computer once and found it was crap because it didn't look like Ardour :) :) :) Do I wish all the music software on Linux would be 100% stable, and Ardour 3 to be already released, and to Bitwig to already be there? I sure do :) Do I wish the futur was already yesterday, I do too! But strangely, I'm only bitching about the state of the music linux world when I'm on a bad composition day :) <sarcasm>My lack of insipiration cannot be my fault, it HAS to be my machine! </sarcasm>

13 years

Re: [LAU] [LAD] So what do you think sucks about Linux audio ?

by Alexandre Prokoudine

On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 4:29 PM, Thijs van severen wrote: > my conclusion is that it _is_ possible to attract new people, but you have > to invest a LOT of time into it. But when was it any different? :) Commercial software vendors like NI get so much attention, because they invested millions of dollars and thousands of man-years into marketing. _And_ that involves work by people with appropriate training. Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

13 years

Re: [LAU] [LAD] So what do you think sucks about Linux audio ?

by Dave Phillips

On 02/06/2013 10:24 PM, David Robillard wrote: > > ... We all complain > sometimes, but people who do nothing but complain are nothing but toxic. > > I hope this thread didn't go that way, but I'm sure as hell not going to > read it to find out ;) > > > So far so good, I'm happy to report. I have a lot to read and consider. And as always, thanks for your work on LV2, I'm a fan. Best, dp

13 years

[LAU] Announcing midisnoop-0.1.2!

by Devin Anderson

I'm happy to announce the release of midisnoop-0.1.2! midisnoop is a simple MIDI monitor and prober. You can use it to monitor a MIDI device and/or software, and to send MIDI messages to a MIDI port to see how the device/software responds. midisnoop supports both ALSA and JACK MIDI ports via the RtMidi library. Changes Since 0.1.0: * UI improvements. * Fixed a configure bug (reported by Robin Gareus). `midisnoop` is available at: http://midisnoop.googlecode.com/ Please report bugs using the issue tracker: http://code.google.com/p/midisnoop/issues/list If you like `midisnoop` and have ideas that can make it better and/or want to keep up with its progress, join the users group: http://groups.google.com/group/midisnoop-users If you're a developer and want to contribute to `midisnoop`, join the development group: http://groups.google.com/group/midisnoop-development Thanks, -- Devin Anderson surfacepatterns (at) gmail (dot) com blog - http://surfacepatterns.blogspot.com/ midisnoop - http://midisnoop.googlecode.com/ psinsights - http://psinsights.googlecode.com/ synthclone - http://synthclone.googlecode.com/

13 years

Re: [LAU] So what do you think sucks about Linux audio ?

by cunnilinux himself

> Assuming this an open question, I'll share my thoughts... > > I love Linux audio for its ideology and the huge efforts of its contributors > (something beyond my capabilities). But I do find I'm constantly' battling > against the elements'. > ... that's the point -Linux audio's stability varies from system to > system and that's the only negative thing about it compared to corporate > OS/Audio. windows is EXACTLY the same. some systems just work, some need moderate tweaking, some require constant fighting with software/hardware. > The majority of linux audio apps are such a mess to work with for the > majority of, let's say, pure musicians which in turn are not interested > at all in learning an OS to play music with a usb keyboard throug > Qsynth, record things with Ardour, use Guitarix, configure a soundcard, > etc etc... that's all. in the same time, many of them are able and willing to do VERY complex and special magic with cracked windows software to make it work :)))) in fact, it is NOT easier than making average linux system to work. the motivation is the difference. > usually it means to leech a thousand instruments/plugins from the > internet, fiddling around for them for some time, getting bored, having > no real idea of what you want your *artistic creation* to be, thinking > that the coolest compressor, not practising over and over, will give > you a good voice, thinking that the latest guitar FX will make your > crappy guitar playing gorgeous... > All of this in 90 % cases to come up with a '4 chord song' which > is just the remake of all other 4-chord songs out there. the cycle repeats. but there's one fundamental thing behind that. people want to have endless opportunities to pick some another cool thing that does some kind of fancy multimedia show. that's about how the whole modern economics works. > See, here is where expectations/assumptions are what leads to claims of > "linux audio sucks." First off, expecting a "clone" of a Windows > application is unrealistic for many reasons but the whole linux-on-desktop thing (and linux-on-DAW in particular) works just like cloning the (un)natural monopolist for decades!!11 to speak about audio production, critical mass of people involved to audio production believes that ableton+VST is the only possible & acceptable paradigm nowadays, so it should be cloned everyphere. as for me, i like linux because it's very easy to make it to be totally different... but who cares? :) and in general, linux audio suxx because very few people can answer one very basic question: «why linux audio?» p.s. and very few people can even imagine how much of their hardware run linux inside :))))))

13 years

Re: [LAU] [LAD] So what do you think sucks about Linux audio ?

by Gabbe Nord

Like said before, I think alot of user feedback could be gained if just there was a simple way to do it, and people got reminded. On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 7:25 PM, Michael Bechard <gothmagog(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > I second the frustration on a lack of user feedback... > > Michael > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Devin Anderson <surfacepatterns(a)gmail.com> > *To:* Dave Phillips <dlphillips(a)woh.rr.com> > *Cc:* linux-audio-user(a)lists.linuxaudio.org; > linux-audio-dev(a)lists.linuxaudio.org > *Sent:* Tuesday, February 5, 2013 11:09 AM > *Subject:* Re: [LAD] [LAU] So what do you think sucks about Linux audio ? > > Hi Dave, > > On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 6:58 AM, Dave Phillips <dlphillips(a)woh.rr.com> > wrote: > > > Not enough native plugins, esp. instruments. > > I think this is one of the key problems with Linux audio. Part of the > problem is that there is no clear mechanism for (non-developer) users > to create their own instruments. Many VSTs are constructed with > modular DSP programs like synthedit and flowstone (formerly > synthmaker). There's probably an opportunity here for Ingen or a new > graphical DSP program based on Faust to fill this hole. > > In general, I think that Linux audio has a lot of tools that help > users to create music, but not a lot of tools that help users create > their own tools (e.g. instruments, plugins, sample libraries, etc.) to > help others to create music. > > On the development side, I think Aurélien and others like him have the > right idea in taking instruments/plugins that are specific to a Linux > audio application and porting them to LV2. There's a lot of awesome > instruments that are specific to applications (e.g. ALSA Modular > Synth, LMMS, etc.) that would generally be more useful if they were > LV2 plugins. > > > Poor external/internal session management. > > Interacting with external hardware can be frustrating. Commercial > programs like Renoise account for external hardware in their workflows > (e.g. latency management, MIDI clock, MMC, etc.). Most Linux Audio > apps don't do this. > > > Too much conflict/fragmentation within the development community. > > I've been trying to write something about conflict and fragmentation > for the past 10 minutes. I think this is a complex issue. I'm not > able to find the words to communicate about it right now. > > > So, in your honest and bold opinion as user and/or developer, what do we > > lack most and what can we do without that we already have ? > > As a developer, I'm missing a couple things: > > 1.) User feedback. > > I can't stress this enough. I watch the download counts increase on > the applications I create, but I hardly ever get feedback. I'm > discouraged and frustrated by the lack of feedback. > > 2.) Non-code developers > > We have a lot of dedicated open source developers writing Linux audio > apps, plugins, etc., but I have yet to meet an open source UI > designer, or an open source graphic artist. I think a lot of the apps > we create could benefit from the feedback of a user interface > experience expert. > > There's probably more, but these are the two things that occur to me now. > > Dave, this is an important topic. Thanks for taking it on. > > -- > Devin Anderson > surfacepatterns (at) gmail (dot) com > > blog - http://surfacepatterns.blogspot.com/ > midisnoop - http://midisnoop.googlecode.com/ > psinsights - http://psinsights.googlecode.com/ > synthclone - http://synthclone.googlecode.com/ > _______________________________________________ > Linux-audio-dev mailing list > Linux-audio-dev(a)lists.linuxaudio.org > http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev > > > > _______________________________________________ > Linux-audio-dev mailing list > Linux-audio-dev(a)lists.linuxaudio.org > http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev > >

13 years

[LAU] #musicmadewithlinux on bbc?

by Patrick Shirkey

You tell me? http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01q1m0h Had a guest appearance from Hydrogen drum machine today too. Those hihats are unmistakable. ;-) -- Patrick Shirkey Boost Hardware Ltd

13 years

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Linux-audio-user February 2013