24 Mar
2009
24 Mar
'09
1:24 p.m.
Fons,
I'm having much enjoyment experimenting with Jconv, and have a further
question.
I've set up a multiple input output .conf, using your /impulse/copy
function.
It works really well, and i've been adding them up to my current test which
is 18 ins, and 18 outs, being 16 ER's, and 2 Tails. (more or less.)
This is with the "greathall". wav.
(And the naming function works a treat, and makes things easy to see and
identify quickly in a patchbay.)
There's a lot more to do, including tweaking the ER start and finish points,
but, and this is the Q:
I can set the jconv outs, to ardours ins, and pan them, so the ER 'image' is
in the same location aurally (roughly, for now) as the dry signal.
But is it possible to 'pan' the ER within the .conf itself, per in and out,
including the impulse/copy ins and outs?
Or can i only do this within Ardour, or another app?
At the moment, everything's coming out in the middle, and i'm considering
adding busses to create a panned sound image. (At this stage of template
building, anyway)
Alex.
--
Parchment Studios (It started as a joke...)
24 Mar
24 Mar
1:44 p.m.
On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 7:24 PM, alex stone <compose59(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Fons,
I'm having much enjoyment experimenting with Jconv, and have a further
question.
I've set up a multiple input output .conf, using your /impulse/copy
function.
It works really well, and i've been adding them up to my current test which
is 18 ins, and 18 outs, being 16 ER's, and 2 Tails. (more or less.)
This is with the "greathall". wav.
(And the naming function works a treat, and makes things easy to see and
identify quickly in a patchbay.)
There's a lot more to do, including tweaking the ER start and finish
points, but, and this is the Q:
I can set the jconv outs, to ardours ins, and pan them, so the ER 'image'
is in the same location aurally (roughly, for now) as the dry signal.
But is it possible to 'pan' the ER within the .conf itself, per in and out,
including the impulse/copy ins and outs?
Or can i only do this within Ardour, or another app?
At the moment, everything's coming out in the middle, and i'm considering
adding busses to create a panned sound image. (At this stage of template
building, anyway)
Alex.
--
Parchment Studios (It started as a joke...)
Paul,
as a follow on to this, i've been trying to figure out your multi channel
panning mechanism in Ardour's mixing strips.
So far no success.
How do i identify which in is going to which dot?
I tried it listening to signal, but nothing seems to change.
I'll definitely put this one down to user error, but i'm a bit stumped at
the moment.
2nd question.
In a multi channel buss, can i isolate signals in, and adjust the gain
accordingly, or is it just one gain to rule them all...?
Alex.
p.s.
Fons, with 18 ins, and 18 outs from one greathall.wav instance, i'm
averaging about 18% CPU use for Jconv when the music's running. (Verified in
Htop.)
I don't know if this info will help you at all in determining efficiency ,
but i'm doing all this on an AMD64 X2 5600+ with 4GB of ram (64bit 64Studio,
2.6.29 RT kernel), and i have RG, LS and Ardour going at the same time, with
a fairly hefty full orchestral template (72 audio outs from LS using 2.8GB
of RAM, with the same in Ardour tracks, and a further 18 busses as well. RG
is running 22 midi ports out, and all this happens 'live', driven from the
midi.). Total CPU use is averaging just under 40%, with the odd 48-55%
thrown in, in the busy sections. (Dual Core CPU.)
--
Parchment Studios (It started as a joke...)
2:28 p.m.
On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 07:44:28PM +0300, alex stone wrote:
On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 7:24 PM, alex stone
<compose59(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> I've set up a multiple input output .conf,
using your /impulse/copy
> function.
> It works really well, and i've been adding them up to my current test which
> is 18 ins, and 18 outs, being 16 ER's, and 2 Tails. (more or less.)
> This is with the "greathall". wav.
> (And the naming function works a treat, and makes things easy to see and
> identify quickly in a patchbay.)
>
> There's a lot more to do, including tweaking the ER start and finish
> points, but, and this is the Q:
>
> I can set the jconv outs, to ardours ins, and pan them, so the ER 'image'
> is in the same location aurally (roughly, for now) as the dry signal.
>
> But is it possible to 'pan' the ER within the .conf itself, per in and out,
> including the impulse/copy ins and outs?
>
> Or can i only do this within Ardour, or another app?
>
> At the moment, everything's coming out in the middle, and i'm considering
> adding busses to create a panned sound image. (At this stage of template
> building, anyway)
Alex, could you please explain what you are trying to do ? I'm asking
because I have a strong impresssion you are complicating your life
difficult by doing it in an upside-down way.
It never makes any sense to run 18 instances of the same
reverb - you can have the same result with just one.
as a follow on to this, i've been trying to figure
out your multi channel
panning mechanism in Ardour's mixing strips.
So far no success.
How do i identify which in is going to which dot?
I tried it listening to signal, but nothing seems to change.
I've tried to make sense of them many times and always
failed. If you want surround, you should have a look at
Ambisonic panning.
--
FA
Io lo dico sempre: l'Italia è troppo stretta e lunga.
2:52 p.m.
On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 8:24 PM, Fons Adriaensen <fons(a)kokkinizita.net>wrote;wrote:
On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 07:44:28PM +0300, alex stone
wrote:
It's an experiment into what happens when i use multiple instances of ER,
and try and position them 'over' the source.
Example
If my stage is 200 units wide, (100L, 100 R) my 1st violins will be about
50L. (Just as an example.)
That is, my dry signal in from LS is positioned at 50L.
I add a send in Ardour, on the 1st violins track, and send this out to Jconv
'multi' to input 1st VL 1. (Mono in.)
The Jconv ER 1st violins out is then brought back into Ardour, and it does
so dead centre, at 0, neither left, nor right.
In my experiment, i want to move that particular ER 'over' the 1st violins
to 50L, and then, using dry and ER gains, attempt to balance between the two
signals, and see what happens. (There's a further challenge here with depth,
but i'm just working with L/R position at the moment.)
And i'm experimenting with multiple ER's for each section/instrument.
I know this is probably completely daft, but i'm wondering (in my miserably
feeble user's mind) if it's possible to 'position' not only the dry
signal,
but some percentage of ER return signal as well, and test the results.
Multiply this out for a full orchestra, and on stage, we'd have several
ER's, each 'over' a spot on the stage.
I have no doubt this may be unfeasible aurally speaking, and the result may
not be usuable, or desirable, but it's part of my longer term thinking about
a complete positional soundscape for an entire orchestra, in which we can
move the dry and ER (or something) return sources around at will, and
'shape' the result, as a consequence of those moves. 1st violins on the
left, complete with ER (or something) return, 2nd violins on the right with
return, etc...
I guess in short form, i'm trying to take a portion of the whole IR, then
portions of the ER part, and spread them out over the stage, in compliment
with the corresponding dry signals.
Alex.
p.s. I still can't figure out these multi channel dots.....
--
Parchment Studios (It started as a joke...)
On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 7:24 PM, alex stone
<compose59(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> I've set up a multiple input output
.conf, using your /impulse/copy
> function.
> It works really well, and i've been adding them up to my current test
which
> is 18 ins, and 18 outs, being 16 ER's,
and 2 Tails. (more or less.)
> This is with the "greathall". wav.
> (And the naming function works a treat, and makes things easy to see
and
> identify quickly in a patchbay.)
>
> There's a lot more to do, including tweaking the ER start and finish
> points, but, and this is the Q:
>
> I can set the jconv outs, to ardours ins, and pan them, so the ER
'image'
> is in the same location aurally (roughly,
for now) as the dry signal.
>
> But is it possible to 'pan' the ER within the .conf itself, per in and
out,
> including the impulse/copy ins and outs?
>
> Or can i only do this within Ardour, or another app?
>
> At the moment, everything's coming out in the middle, and i'm
considering
> adding busses to create a panned sound
image. (At this stage of
template
> building, anyway)
Alex, could you please explain what you are trying to do ? I'm asking
because I have a strong impresssion you are complicating your life
difficult by doing it in an upside-down way.
It never makes any sense to run 18 instances of the same
reverb - you can have the same result with just one.
as a follow on to this, i've been trying to
figure out your multi channel
panning mechanism in Ardour's mixing strips.
So far no success.
How do i identify which in is going to which dot?
I tried it listening to signal, but nothing seems to change.
I've tried to make sense of them many times and always
failed. If you want surround, you should have a look at
Ambisonic panning.
--
FA
Io lo dico sempre: l'Italia è troppo stretta e lunga.
Fons, and of course you're right, i'm complicating this to a large degree..
26 Mar
26 Mar
3:56 p.m.
On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 08:52:07PM +0300, alex stone wrote:
It's an experiment into what happens when i use
multiple instances of ER,
and try and position them 'over' the source.
Example
If my stage is 200 units wide, (100L, 100 R) my 1st violins will be about
50L. (Just as an example.)
That is, my dry signal in from LS is positioned at 50L.
I add a send in Ardour, on the 1st violins track, and send this out to Jconv
'multi' to input 1st VL 1. (Mono in.)
The Jconv ER 1st violins out is then brought back into Ardour, and it does
so dead centre, at 0, neither left, nor right.
In my experiment, i want to move that particular ER 'over' the 1st violins
to 50L, and then, using dry and ER gains, attempt to balance between the two
signals, and see what happens. (There's a further challenge here with depth,
but i'm just working with L/R position at the moment.)
This does not make any sense. Early reflection are
the first 80-100ms of a room's response. There will
normally be a number of reflections in this interval,
and they come from all directions. In a good concert
hall there will be some strong ones from the sides.
Reducing them to mono and giving them the same direction
as the direct sound does not correspond to any real
acoustic process. A jconv setup meant to reproduce ER
should at least be stereo if your mix is stereo. You
just mix it directly into the stereo master bus.
Most stereo reverbs will just produce one set of ER,
while they should be different for each source position.
If you separate the ER from the reverb tail there are
some things you can do to have more variation. One is
to create a second set by just swapping L and R, or for
an AMB reverb, by rotating it. Much more interesting
is to play with delays and levels. For a close source
the ER will be weaker and arrive later. For a more
distant source the ER will be close to the direct
sound, and stronger.
An alternative is to use a reverb that provides a
number of different ER patterns. The reverb I captured
in the concert hall of la Casa della Musica does
provide this, IIRC there are at least 4 ER patterns
corresponding to different on-stage source positions.
In the jconv configuration they have separate inputs
(as does the reverb tail), and a common output. Nothing
is lost by the common output, as separate ones would
just all be mixed into the master bus anyway. You can
enhance the set of 4 by using different delays.
On each channel you should have a post-fader send to
set the level of the ER and a second one for the reverb
tail, and insert a short variable delay into the direct
sound path (after the point where the delay send is taken).
Or you put the delay into the reverb send and use it
in the opposite sense.
Of course doing this in Ardour is a nightmare as you end
up with three of four plugins per channel. For a typical
orchestra this means you'd have something like 50 plugin
windows on screen, or being forced to re-open and close
them for each adjustment.
I'm developing a mixer app that has a more ergonomic
layout for this sort of thing. It wil also do ambisonics
and provide filters, dynamics, equaliser and delays on
each channel.
--
FA
Io lo dico sempre: l'Italia è troppo stretta e lunga.
9:15 p.m.
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 9:51 PM, Fons Adriaensen <fons(a)kokkinizita.net>wrote;wrote:
On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 08:52:07PM +0300, alex stone
wrote:
This does not make any sense. Early reflection are
the first 80-100ms of a room's response. There will
normally be a number of reflections in this interval,
and they come from all directions. In a good concert
hall there will be some strong ones from the sides.
Reducing them to mono and giving them the same direction
as the direct sound does not correspond to any real
acoustic process. A jconv setup meant to reproduce ER
should at least be stereo if your mix is stereo. You
just mix it directly into the stereo master bus.
Most stereo reverbs will just produce one set of ER,
while they should be different for each source position.
If you separate the ER from the reverb tail there are
some things you can do to have more variation. One is
to create a second set by just swapping L and R, or for
an AMB reverb, by rotating it. Much more interesting
is to play with delays and levels. For a close source
the ER will be weaker and arrive later. For a more
distant source the ER will be close to the direct
sound, and stronger.
An alternative is to use a reverb that provides a
number of different ER patterns. The reverb I captured
in the concert hall of la Casa della Musica does
provide this, IIRC there are at least 4 ER patterns
corresponding to different on-stage source positions.
In the jconv configuration they have separate inputs
(as does the reverb tail), and a common output. Nothing
is lost by the common output, as separate ones would
just all be mixed into the master bus anyway. You can
enhance the set of 4 by using different delays.
On each channel you should have a post-fader send to
set the level of the ER and a second one for the reverb
tail, and insert a short variable delay into the direct
sound path (after the point where the delay send is taken).
Or you put the delay into the reverb send and use it
in the opposite sense.
Of course doing this in Ardour is a nightmare as you end
up with three of four plugins per channel. For a typical
orchestra this means you'd have something like 50 plugin
windows on screen, or being forced to re-open and close
them for each adjustment.
I'm developing a mixer app that has a more ergonomic
layout for this sort of thing. It wil also do ambisonics
and provide filters, dynamics, equaliser and delays on
each channel.
--
FA
Io lo dico sempre: l'Italia è troppo stretta e lunga.
Fons, you're right, it doesn't make any sense, and i've found that out
for
myself. (I did learn something in the effort though, so it was worth
trying.)
I also have the recent experience of trying to create as many sends as
required in Ardour with another IR, and got past 50 down to the trombones,
before i called a halt to it.
I shall have a go at the sala IR tomorrow, and see what happens. Hopefully i
can find a balance between as 'real' as possible, and within a reasonable
template that runs without a problem. When i add 70 tracks, and 40 busses to
Ardour, and then add 50 odd sends, it takes a little while to make all the
connections on startup, so i'll need to compromise somewhere, i think.
It's good news about your mixer project. I can see something like that
taking at least some of the hard work out of a standard orchestral setup.
I wait with barely controlled excitement for the release.
Thanks again for all the tips, and user friendly technical advice. I'm
certainly learning a lot, and that's no bad thing at all.
Alex.
--
Parchment Studios (It started as a joke...)
9:43 p.m.
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 2:51 PM, Fons Adriaensen <fons(a)kokkinizita.net>wrote;wrote:
Of course doing this in Ardour is a nightmare as you end
up with three of four plugins per channel. For a typical
orchestra this means you'd have something like 50 plugin
windows on screen, or being forced to re-open and close
them for each adjustment.
I'm developing a mixer app that has a more ergonomic
layout for this sort of thing. It wil also do ambisonics
and provide filters, dynamics, equaliser and delays on
each channel.
just a small mention of an idea ... i know of at least one (undercover)
LADSPA plugin right now which maintains "global state". rather than every
instance of the plugin being 100% independent, every instance is "connected"
to the global state. this makes it possible to do some "across the entire
mixer" tricks that would be impossible with the "every instance is
independent approach".
but yes, in general, i would want to echo fons' point that doing this kind
of thing *inside* ardour is crazy. 2.8 contains, in addition to session
templates, track templates. this means that you can, for example, get an
ambisonics session template established, along with 1 or more ambisonics
track templates. these templates will include the routings to (for example)
ambdec or some other multichannel-aware application. this then makes it
almost trivial to recreate complex session setups each time - start with the
right session template that routes audio via ambdec or whatever new magic
fons comes up with, then add tracks/busses from track templates that already
define the correct output wiring.
the multichannel panner in ardour should be ignored. i'd like to find a
sponsor to support the development of a VBAP-based replacement. after
talking to several multichannel/surround people in berlin, it seems clear
that both ambisonics and VBAP have their roles. the ambisonics setup is
better done via ambdec because of the number and complexity of the
parameters, but VBAP could be done quite nicely inside ardour. its not going
to happen without someone raising a relatively significant amount of money,
or somebody else doing the work.
--p
27 Mar
27 Mar
12:01 a.m.
On Thursday 26 March 2009 20:43:27 Paul Davis wrote:
the multichannel panner in ardour should be ignored.
i'd like to find a
sponsor to support the development of a VBAP-based replacement. after
talking to several multichannel/surround people in berlin, it seems clear
that both ambisonics and VBAP have their roles. the ambisonics setup is
better done via ambdec because of the number and complexity of the
parameters, but VBAP could be done quite nicely inside ardour. its not
going to happen without someone raising a relatively significant amount of
money, or somebody else doing the work.
There are some VBAP plugins for SuperCollider available, made by Scott Wilson.
I'm sure that some of the source of those can be ported for Ardour... it may
even be worth contacting him and seeing if he can get one of his students
enthusiastic in porting them to Ardour.
sincerely,
Marije
2:23 a.m.
I've been using VBAP in Csound and PD so I guess the source there
might be reusable also. If VBAP is to be included in Ardour and some
other people are interesting in teaming up and financially support
this, please count me in (I wont be able to give much but I'm willing
to contribute). To have VBAP in Ardour would open a lot of
possibilities for easily using Ardour in electroacoustic multichannel
audio work with the option of having 3D spatialization (azimuth and
elevation)... and that combined with OSC control would be great.
Cheers,
Hector
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 11:01 PM, nescivi <nescivi(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Thursday 26 March 2009 20:43:27 Paul Davis wrote:
the multichannel panner in ardour should be
ignored. i'd like to find a
sponsor to support the development of a VBAP-based replacement. after
talking to several multichannel/surround people in berlin, it seems clear
that both ambisonics and VBAP have their roles. the ambisonics setup is
better done via ambdec because of the number and complexity of the
parameters, but VBAP could be done quite nicely inside ardour. its not
going to happen without someone raising a relatively significant amount of
money, or somebody else doing the work.
There are some VBAP plugins for SuperCollider available, made by Scott Wilson.
I'm sure that some of the source of those can be ported for Ardour... it may
even be worth contacting him and seeing if he can get one of his students
enthusiastic in porting them to Ardour.
sincerely,
Marije
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-user mailing list
Linux-audio-user(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-audio-user
4:28 a.m.
Hello everybody,
this is my first post in this list :)
Ville Pulkki ( VBAP author) is sitting next door here :) actually at
the end of the other corridor, but when we talked earlier he told me
that he has not been doing anything with VBAP for years. Now he has a
bigger team in his research group, there might be some interest of his
students in this topic, so I will talk to him about any VBAP in Ardour
possibilities. I will post it here later on.
Koray
On Mar 27, 2009, at 7:23 AM, Hector Centeno wrote:
I've been using VBAP in Csound and PD so I guess
the source there
might be reusable also. If VBAP is to be included in Ardour and some
other people are interesting in teaming up and financially support
this, please count me in (I wont be able to give much but I'm willing
to contribute). To have VBAP in Ardour would open a lot of
possibilities for easily using Ardour in electroacoustic multichannel
audio work with the option of having 3D spatialization (azimuth and
elevation)... and that combined with OSC control would be great.
Cheers,
Hector
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 11:01 PM, nescivi <nescivi(a)gmail.com> wrote:
-------------------------------------
M.Koray Tahiroglu
Acoustics Lab / TKK
http://mlab.taik.fi/~korayt/
http://www.acoustics.hut.fi/~ktahirog/
tel: +358 45 233 6272
On Thursday 26 March 2009 20:43:27 Paul Davis
wrote:
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-user mailing list
Linux-audio-user(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-audio-user the multichannel panner in ardour should be
ignored. i'd like to
find a
sponsor to support the development of a VBAP-based replacement.
after
talking to several multichannel/surround people in berlin, it
seems clear
that both ambisonics and VBAP have their roles. the ambisonics
setup is
better done via ambdec because of the number and complexity of the
parameters, but VBAP could be done quite nicely inside ardour. its
not
going to happen without someone raising a relatively significant
amount of
money, or somebody else doing the work.
There are some VBAP plugins for SuperCollider available, made by
Scott Wilson.
I'm sure that some of the source of those can be ported for
Ardour... it may
even be worth contacting him and seeing if he can get one of his
students
enthusiastic in porting them to Ardour.
sincerely,
Marije
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-user mailing list
Linux-audio-user(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-audio-user
3:42 p.m.
Fons Adriaensen wrote:
Of course doing this in Ardour is a nightmare as you
end
up with three of four plugins per channel. For a typical
orchestra this means you'd have something like 50 plugin
windows on screen, or being forced to re-open and close
them for each adjustment.
as paul said, once the track templates are in shape (and they seem very
close), such a thing will be quite easy to set up in ardour. the only
thing that's missing is a way to display all plugins for one channel in
a single window, and maybe a second option to display one particular
parameter for all channels (the pm5d has such a mode for its encoder
bank, and it's really, really, really nice).
optionally, keyboard shortcuts to pop up and cycle through plugins both
horizontally (next track/bus, previous track/bus) and vertically
(next/prev plugin in current track/bus)...
I'm developing a mixer app that has a more
ergonomic
layout for this sort of thing. It wil also do ambisonics
and provide filters, dynamics, equaliser and delays on
each channel.
while you're designing it, could this stuff be separated so that it's
easy to split it into an lv2 "Ambi channel strip" plugin and a lv2
reverb section later? this way, it could be used in ardour without
having to duplicate code...
best,
jörn
6:46 p.m.
On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 07:42:05PM +0100, Jörn Nettingsmeier wrote:
Fons Adriaensen wrote:
The simple answer to this is no.
I've been analysing and exploring this for almost
two years now, and the conclusion of this is that
two things I originally wanted to do will not
happen. One is basing the design on LV2 somehow,
and the second is using jack for internal routing.
Regarding LV2, this would be possible in theory,
by defining a number of extensions. This would
mean:
- I have to define the extensions. Some of them
are likely to be in conflict with existing ones,
or to create ambiguities which are not resolved
by the current specs.
- I have to write a host supporting the basic API,
all existing extensions, and my own.
- The chance that other hosts will adopt the new
extensions is small.
- I have to complicate things no end by handling
basic and essential things as extensions.
Apart from that, the nature of the extensions I'd
need would mean that, apart from the extension
mechanism itself, *nothing* would remain of the
basic LV2 API. Things like its initialisation and
process methods would be replaced *completely*.
For a host author it would actually be easier
to add a new plugin API than to add the extensions.
There have been serious discussions with the LV2
devs some time ago, these have led to nothing.
The standard answer is: "this can be provided by
an extension" which has the same usability level
as "Jesus will take care of it", or "this would
be too complicated for a novice programmer who
wants to write a simple plugin", which amounts
to a voluntary limit on the scope of LV2.
Regarding Jack, it is not moving in the right
direction.
- Port locking has been removed. I'd actually
need this to be expanded rather than removed.
- Port 'ties' are deprecated and will be removed.
There is no simple and efficient alternative.
- The latency issue. About a month ago Paul Davis
posted his new latency calculation scheme and
invited comments. I did reply, and one of my
comments was that this scheme, while correct,
provided only half of the required functionality.
No reply at all to this, nada, niente. Either
the matter is forgotton for the time being, or
something is being developed in some closed
group and we will some day have some solution,
which may be satisfactory or not, imposed de
facto. I can't take that risk.
- Jack is getting too fat. We now have the scary
situation that a non-audio connection can affect
audio timing by creating a loop.
Regarding integrating some of the things I will
implement as plugins in Ardour, this would be
possible, but some of the essential functionality
will be lost. Some of the design, in particular
in the GUI and global management areas is radically
different, and Ardour has its history, both in
terms of existing code structure and acceptance
of its current personality by users. Apart from
that it has a much wider scope than just being
a mixer, and also that has its consequences.
Ciao,
--
FA
Io lo dico sempre: l'Italia è troppo stretta e lunga.
I'm developing a mixer app that has a more
ergonomic
layout for this sort of thing. It wil also do ambisonics
and provide filters, dynamics, equaliser and delays on
each channel.
while you're designing it, could this stuff be separated so that it's
easy to split it into an lv2 "Ambi channel strip" plugin and a lv2
reverb section later? this way, it could be used in ardour without
having to duplicate code...
5652
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5655
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participants (7)
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alex stone -
Fons Adriaensen -
Hector Centeno -
Jörn Nettingsmeier -
Koray Tahiroglu -
nescivi -
Paul Davis