7 Jul
2011
7 Jul
'11
9:58 a.m.
Hi,
I usually try to record electric guitars with minimal effects (i.e.,
only distortion or a bit of reverb), and later add them in the mixing
process. But, though that may make sense recording-wise to achieve a good
sound, it's not the same with regards to playing. For example: if I want to
know how something sounds with delay, or chorus, or flanger, or whatever, I
like to play with it (using my guitar's preamp effects). It's more inspiring
to do so, if you know what I mean.
So, what do the real pros (that'd be you ;-)) do? My first thought is to
"prototype" using the preamp's effects, and once I have a good idea of what
I need, record "clean" and apply effects in Ardour. But that sounds like a
lot of work; and before doing it, I'd rather ask if there's some shortcut.
Thanks in advance.
--
Roberto Suárez Soto
7 Jul
7 Jul
10:06 a.m.
New subject: Applying effects when recording electric guitars: before or after recording?
2011/7/7 Roberto Suárez Soto:
So, what do the real pros (that'd be you ;-))
do?
They use hardware rigs. I'm quite serious.
Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
10:37 a.m.
New subject: Applying effects when recording electric guitars: before or after recording?
On 7 July 2011 10:06, Alexandre Prokoudine
<alexandre.prokoudine(a)gmail.com> wrote:
2011/7/7 Roberto Suárez Soto:
Indeed. Ideally, the computer should not be responsible for any guitar effects.
So, what do the real pros (that'd be you
;-)) do?
They use hardware rigs. I'm quite serious.
10:53 a.m.
New subject: Applying effects when recording electric guitars: before or after recording?
2011/7/7 Arve Barsnes <arve.barsnes(a)gmail.com>
They use hardware rigs. I'm quite serious.
Indeed. Ideally, the computer should not be responsible for any guitar
effects.
That sounds like an awfully good excuse to burn a lot of money in effect
processors :-)
So, ideally, should the computer be used only to record and mix, with
all the effects already applied? What if you decide afterwards that that
long solo you played would be better without some effect? You record it
again? Sounds like a lot of work; but then, that would explain the time it
takes to record an album.
And now that we're at it, any recommendation for entry-level, moderately
cheap, amateur home recording? I have a Behringer V-Amp 2, and though it
sounds quite well to my untrained ears, I'm always on the prowl for new
shiny things to put my paws on. The family of Line 6 Pods, perhaps? They
seem to be everywhere.
Thanks,
--
Roberto Suárez Soto
11:12 a.m.
New subject: Applying effects when recording electric guitars: before or after recording?
On Thu, Jul 07, 2011 at 10:53:33AM +0200, Roberto Suárez Soto wrote:
That sounds like an awfully good excuse to burn a
lot of money in effect
processors :-)
Hardware puts the controls in the musician's hands and avoids all
the trouble of setting up computers etc. It's just a lot easier to
use and reliable. There's also a hype factor but the same can be
said about software effects.
So, ideally, should the computer be used only to
record and mix, with
all the effects already applied? What if you decide afterwards that that
long solo you played would be better without some effect? You record it
again? Sounds like a lot of work; but then, that would explain the time it
takes to record an album.
The 'lot of work' is maybe what it takes, and you can always record
two or more tracks at the same time, a clean one and any number with
effects applied.
Ciao,
--
FA
9 Jul
9 Jul
7:30 a.m.
New subject: Applying effects when recording electric guitars: before or after recording?
And now that we're at it, any recommendation
for entry-level,
moderately cheap, amateur home recording? I have a Behringer V-Amp 2,
and though it sounds quite well to my untrained ears, I'm always on
the prowl for new shiny things to put my paws on. The family of Line 6
Pods, perhaps? They seem to be everywhere.
Thanks,
--
Roberto Suárez Soto
When record in Ardour, having -10 level peaks on track entry is ok
If you can put a compressor (threshold -10, ratio 2) before the sound
card it's nice to control that level
Line6 is cool, and supported by Linux, but why changing if V-Amp sounds ??
7 Jul
7 Jul
11:09 a.m.
New subject: Applying effects when recording electric guitars: before or after recording?
On Thu, 7 Jul 2011 10:36:49 +0200
Arve Barsnes <arve.barsnes(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On 7 July 2011 10:06, Alexandre Prokoudine
<alexandre.prokoudine(a)gmail.com> wrote:
why?
renato
2011/7/7 Roberto Suárez Soto:
Indeed. Ideally, the computer should not be responsible for any
guitar effects. So, what do the real pros (that'd be you
;-)) do?
They use hardware rigs. I'm quite serious.
12:02 p.m.
New subject: Applying effects when recording electric guitars: before or after recording?
On 07/07/2011 11:08 AM, Renato wrote:
On Thu, 7 Jul 2011 10:36:49 +0200
Arve Barsnes<arve.barsnes(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I'd like to know too. I know albums where the guitars are all running
through NI Guitar Rig for example.
I'm perfectly ok with Guitarix, Rakarrack, linuxDSP, Calf and the likes,
I can get pretty decent sounds out of it. What I normally do is to
record the clean guitar track while it does run through the desired
effects before it goes to my headphones/monitors. Like this you record
the guitar track with the right feel but you still have the possibility
to play around with it afterwards. For serious studio work I'd prefer
valve amps with decent speaker cabinets or valve combo's but for
homerecording using the computer to process your guitar is a good option
I think.
Best,
Jeremy
On 7 July 2011 10:06, Alexandre Prokoudine
<alexandre.prokoudine(a)gmail.com> wrote:
why?
renato 2011/7/7 Roberto Suárez Soto:
Indeed. Ideally, the computer should not be responsible for any
guitar effects. So, what do the real pros (that'd be you
;-)) do?
They use hardware rigs. I'm quite serious.
11:17 a.m.
New subject: Applying effects when recording electric guitars: before or after recording?
----- "Arve Barsnes" <arve.barsnes(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On 7 July 2011 10:06, Alexandre Prokoudine
<alexandre.prokoudine(a)gmail.com> wrote:
and what do you think all those effect boxes do? how do they work?
by magic? or by electronics?
The only difference is that you can push hard on the box with your
foot while you play live.
So be it for the effects.
For the room/ampli/microphone placement, it might be
another business. The only difference I see is the feedback from
the ampli to the guitar which leads to larsen effect, which you
don't have in the software only world (assuming you don't play the
guitar audio back to the room, or to soft levels). Apart from that
I think you can emulate everything else, at least theoretically.
Is the software ready at this date I don't know...
Pros don't go that route because they learned with some tools and
stick to them. Nothing wrong with that, but not mandatory. Let's
not be fooled.
Roberto, have a look at guitarix. Maybe you'll like it. Don't fear
to experiment. What matters is: do you like the sound coming out
of your setup? can you use your tools in the situations you plan
to (like live performances)? If yes then the tools, whatever they
are, are good. And nothing else matters. Period.
2011/7/7 Roberto Suárez Soto:
Indeed. Ideally, the computer should not be responsible for any guitar
effects. So, what do the real pros (that'd be you
;-)) do?
They use hardware rigs. I'm quite serious.
11:58 a.m.
New subject: Applying effects when recording electric guitars: before or after recording?
The only difference is that you can push hard on the box with your
foot while you play live.
Disagree! Effects pedals and the like have almost no round-trip latency (through
soundcard, to the processor, and back for monitoring) and usually a much lower processing
time (especially if they are analogue!) both of which are very important points when you
are listening to the effected path while playing.
12:17 p.m.
New subject: Applying effects when recording electric guitars: before or after recording?
----- "Dale Powell" <dj_kaza(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
okay, I half-agree with that. The latency problem...
On one hand it is, indeed, a difference. The computer gets some data
in, in chunks, process it, and sends that back to physical world. All
is in the chunk's size, which introduces some delay. Right.
But! did you actually try to play the guitar and use a linux-based effects chain?
I tried guitarix. With 1024 samples of latency I notice some delay. Below I
don't notice anything. 256 is fine. Go down to 64 and it's psychologically
similar to no delay at all. There were links about latency issues on the
lists a few weeks ago. So yeah, latency. But below a given threshold you
don't feel latency at all.
So there again, just try and see/hear what happens. I am personally not
disturbed by a bit of latency (a bit being 256 samples at 44.1KHz).
The only difference is that you can push hard on the box with your
foot while you play live.
Disagree! Effects pedals and the like have almost no round-trip
latency (through soundcard, to the processor, and back for monitoring)
and usually a much lower processing time (especially if they are
analogue!) both of which are very important points when you are
listening to the effected path while playing. 
12:23 p.m.
New subject: Applying effects when recording electric guitars: before or after recording?
On 07/07/2011 12:17 PM, Cedric Roux wrote:
But! did you actually try to play the guitar and use a
linux-based effects chain?
I tried guitarix. With 1024 samples of latency I notice some delay. Below I
don't notice anything. 256 is fine. Go down to 64 and it's psychologically
similar to no delay at all. There were links about latency issues on the
lists a few weeks ago. So yeah, latency. But below a given threshold you
don't feel latency at all.
I'm using rakarrack with my bands every now and then to try out effects.
I'm even thinking about using it live, especially stuff like the Arpie
and Harmonizer effects are very cool to use within a band. With -p128
(my netbook can't go really lower) I barely experience any latency when
I'm standing in front of my full tube half stack.
Best,
Jeremy
12:25 p.m.
New subject: Applying effects when recording electric guitars: before or after recording?
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2011 12:17:02 +0200
From: sed(a)free.fr
To: dj_kaza(a)hotmail.com
CC: linux-audio-user(a)lists.linuxaudio.org; arve.barsnes(a)gmail.com
Subject: Re: [LAU] Applying effects when recording electric guitars: before or after
recording?
----- "Dale Powell" <dj_kaza(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
okay, I half-agree with that. The latency problem...
On one hand it is, indeed, a difference. The computer gets some data
in, in chunks, process it, and sends that back to physical world. All
is in the chunk's size, which introduces some delay. Right.
But! did you actually try to play the guitar and use a linux-based effects chain?
I tried guitarix. With 1024 samples of latency I notice some delay. Below I
don't notice anything. 256 is fine. Go down to 64 and it's psychologically
similar to no delay at all. There were links about latency issues on the
lists a few weeks ago. So yeah, latency. But below a given threshold you
don't feel latency at all.
So there again, just try and see/hear what happens. I am personally not
disturbed by a bit of latency (a bit being 256 samples at 44.1KHz).
OK I admit personally I don't play guitar but have done some recordings for people in
the past.
I can generally agree that with a reasonably modest computer (doesn't have to be the
fastest in the world) and a half decent soundcard, just using one or two not-too-intensive
effects you can usually get away with monitoring through the effected chain of the PC. If
you are going to do this I would suggest using a more simple chain to give the idea of the
sound you are after, record the dry (or both) signal(s) and then you have the option of
applying more CPU/latency intensive plugins once it is recorded, yet you can monitor with
at least an idea of what it will sound like, rather than monitoring dry.
I also have to admit so far I haven't played much with the effects available on Linux.
Still trying to get myself migrated from Windows but little niggles often pull me back to
the dark side...
The only difference is that you can push hard on the box with your
foot while you play live.
Disagree! Effects pedals and the like have almost no round-trip
latency (through soundcard, to the processor, and back for monitoring)
and usually a much lower processing time (especially if they are
analogue!) both of which are very important points when you are
listening to the effected path while playing. 
12:19 p.m.
New subject: Applying effects when recording electric guitars: before or after recording?
On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 6:58 AM, Dale Powell <dj_kaza(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
While I play hardware synths, I do have 3 moog analogue pedals -
delay, phaser and the 'murf' . The moog pedals are for guitars too, of
course. I don't use computers for music much because I get too much of
that at work already. I did try it and didn't like it, though I still
use audactiy and rosegarden occasionally. But besides the setup,
constant upgrade, and latency issues ... my ears can definitely hear
the difference between analogue and digital effects. The same thing
for analogue vs synths too. And mixers. Besides that, I just like
knobs better. More expensive? Absolutely. Worth it? It is enough for
me to sacrifice other things, like cars etc. YMMV.
The only difference is that you can push hard on the box with your
foot while you play live.
Disagree! Effects pedals and the like have almost no round-trip latency
(through soundcard, to the processor, and back for monitoring) and usually a
much lower processing time (especially if they are analogue!) both of which
are very important points when you are listening to the effected path while
playing.
12:36 p.m.
New subject: Applying effects when recording electric guitars: before or after recording?
On 07/07/2011 11:58 AM, Dale Powell wrote:
Disagree! Effects pedals and the like have almost no
round-trip latency (through soundcard, to the processor, and back for monitoring) and
usually a much lower processing time (especially if they are analogue!) both of which are
very important points when you are listening to the effected path while playing.
When standing 2 meters from your speaker cabinet the round-trip latency
is already approx. 6ms. When using rakarrack and jackd running with -p64
overall latency is approx. 8ms on my system (tested with jdelay). I'm no
Larry Mullen Jr or the drummer of Coldplay (really enjoyed that Eagleman
article) so the 2ms difference doesn't bother me.
Best,
Jeremy
9 Jul
9 Jul
8:56 a.m.
New subject: Applying effects when recording electric guitars: before or after recording?
Cedric Roux wrote:
----- "Arve
Barsnes"<arve.barsnes(a)gmail.com> wrote:
+1
Lorenzo
On 7 July 2011 10:06, Alexandre Prokoudine
<alexandre.prokoudine(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> 2011/7/7 Roberto Suárez Soto:
>> [...]
[...]
What matters is: do you like the sound coming out
of your setup? can you use your tools in the situations you plan
to (like live performances)? If yes then the tools, whatever they
are, are good. And nothing else matters. Period. _______________________________________________
Linux-audio-user mailing list
Linux-audio-user(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-user
7 Jul
7 Jul
11:06 a.m.
New subject: Applying effects when recording electric guitars: before or after recording?
On Thu, 7 Jul 2011 09:58:49 +0200
Roberto Suárez Soto <talkingxouba(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
I usually try to record electric guitars with minimal effects
(i.e., only distortion or a bit of reverb), and later add them in the
mixing process. But, though that may make sense recording-wise to
achieve a good sound, it's not the same with regards to playing. For
example: if I want to know how something sounds with delay, or
chorus, or flanger, or whatever, I like to play with it (using my
guitar's preamp effects). It's more inspiring to do so, if you know
what I mean.
So, what do the real pros (that'd be you ;-)) do? My first
thought is to "prototype" using the preamp's effects, and once I have
a good idea of what I need, record "clean" and apply effects in
Ardour. But that sounds like a lot of work; and before doing it, I'd
rather ask if there's some shortcut.
Thanks in advance.
hi, you can use inserts on the track, so you record dry but you monitor
wet, and later on tweak the effects.
cheers
renato
12:32 p.m.
New subject: Applying effects when recording electric guitars: before or after recording?
Excerpts from Roberto Suárez Soto's message of 2011-07-07 09:58:49 +0200:
Hi,
I usually try to record electric guitars with minimal effects (i.e.,
only distortion or a bit of reverb), and later add them in the mixing
process. But, though that may make sense recording-wise to achieve a good
sound, it's not the same with regards to playing. For example: if I want to
know how something sounds with delay, or chorus, or flanger, or whatever, I
like to play with it (using my guitar's preamp effects). It's more inspiring
to do so, if you know what I mean.
So, what do the real pros (that'd be you ;-)) do? My first thought is to
"prototype" using the preamp's effects, and once I have a good idea of
what
I need, record "clean" and apply effects in Ardour. But that sounds like a
lot of work; and before doing it, I'd rather ask if there's some shortcut.
Thanks in advance.
Also consider the psychological effect. Recording clean allows for
endless tinkering. With effects on the track your possibilities are
limited, re-recording is additional effort, so you likely focus more on
getting good sound first, get that down and do little afterwards.
If you tend to tweak endlessly it's probably better to use hardware :)
12:41 p.m.
New subject: Applying effects when recording electric guitars: before or after recording?
2011/7/7 Roberto Suárez Soto <talkingxouba(a)gmail.com>om>:
So, what do the real pros (that'd be you ;-))
do? My first thought is to
"prototype" using the preamp's effects, and once I have a good idea of
what
I need, record "clean" and apply effects in Ardour. But that sounds like a
lot of work; and before doing it, I'd rather ask if there's some shortcut.
A professional guitarist would use effects pedals or an effects
rack... effects are rarely ever added in post.
--
Brett W. McCoy -- http://www.electricminstrel.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"In the rhythm of music a secret is hidden; If I were to divulge it,
it would overturn the world."
-- Jelaleddin Rumi
12:48 p.m.
New subject: Applying effects when recording electric guitars: before or after recording?
On 07/07/2011 12:40 PM, Brett McCoy wrote:
A professional guitarist would use effects pedals or
an effects
rack... effects are rarely ever added in post.
There are professional guitarists that record everything clean and
everything gets processed afterwards. Ruud Jolie of Within Temptation is
a good example, he recorded all guitar parts for his most recent album
clean at home and everything got processed somewhere else.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruud_Adrianus_Jolie
Best,
Jeremy
12:55 p.m.
New subject: Applying effects when recording electric guitars: before or after recording?
2011/7/7 Jeremy Jongepier <jeremy(a)autostatic.com>
On 07/07/2011 12:40 PM, Brett McCoy wrote:
have a look to th ere-amping tecniques
A professional guitarist would use effects pedals
or an effects
rack... effects are rarely ever added in post.
There are professional guitarists that record everything clean and
everything gets processed afterwards. Ruud Jolie of Within Temptation is
a good example, he recorded all guitar parts for his most recent album
clean at home and everything got processed somewhere else.
really a bad habit :-)
--
*L'unica speranza di catarsi, ammesso che ne esista una, resta affidata
all'istinto di ribellione, alla rivolta non isterilita in progetti, alla
protesta violenta e viscerale.*
1:14 p.m.
New subject: Applying effects when recording electric guitars: before or after recording?
On 07/07/2011 12:55 PM, Raffaele Morelli wrote:
really a bad habit :-)
I fully agree. I was a bit flabbergasted when I read a recent interview
with this guy about his latest solo effort.
Best,
Jeremy
12:58 p.m.
New subject: Applying effects when recording electric guitars: before or after recording?
On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 6:48 AM, Jeremy Jongepier <jeremy(a)autostatic.com> wrote:
On 07/07/2011 12:40 PM, Brett McCoy wrote:
That's a strange way to do it... there are some techniques that
require sustain and distortion or they won't sound right, even if
added in post-production. But like I said, it's rare to do it this
way.
--
Brett W. McCoy -- http://www.electricminstrel.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"In the rhythm of music a secret is hidden; If I were to divulge it,
it would overturn the world."
-- Jelaleddin Rumi
A professional guitarist would use effects pedals
or an effects
rack... effects are rarely ever added in post.
There are professional guitarists that record everything clean and
everything gets processed afterwards. Ruud Jolie of Within Temptation is
a good example, he recorded all guitar parts for his most recent album
clean at home and everything got processed somewhere else.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruud_Adrianus_Jolie
1:16 p.m.
New subject: Applying effects when recording electric guitars: before or after recording?
On 07/07/2011 12:57 PM, Brett McCoy wrote:
That's a strange way to do it... there are some
techniques that
require sustain and distortion or they won't sound right, even if
added in post-production. But like I said, it's rare to do it this
way.
It's common practice in the metal world afaik. One of my bandmates has a
little (Reaper) based homestudio and virtually all metal bands he
records are re-amped through his collection of tube amps.
Best,
Jeremy
1:24 p.m.
New subject: Applying effects when recording electric guitars: before or after recording?
On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 12:16 PM, Jeremy Jongepier <jeremy(a)autostatic.com> wrote:
On 07/07/2011 12:57 PM, Brett McCoy wrote:
Interesting - but that's still a home studio. Is it common practice in
pro studios that record heavy metal bands?
That's a strange way to do it... there are
some techniques that
require sustain and distortion or they won't sound right, even if
added in post-production. But like I said, it's rare to do it this
way.
It's common practice in the metal world afaik. One of my bandmates has a
little (Reaper) based homestudio and virtually all metal bands he
records are re-amped through his collection of tube amps.
1:39 p.m.
New subject: Applying effects when recording electric guitars: before or after recording?
On 07/07/2011 01:24 PM, James Stone wrote:
On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 12:16 PM, Jeremy Jongepier
<jeremy(a)autostatic.com> wrote:
I'd have to ask, I'm not very familiar with that genre but my bandmate
is and among his circle of metalfriends and acquaintances re-amping and
using modelling software is not considered bad. Using Line6 equipment on
the other hand... ;) But my guess is that in a good pro studio with (a)
good producer(s) analogue effects and amps are preferred. At least, I
hope so...
Best,
Jeremy
On 07/07/2011 12:57 PM, Brett McCoy wrote:
Interesting - but that's still a home studio. Is it common practice in
pro studios that record heavy metal bands? That's a strange way to do it... there are
some techniques that
require sustain and distortion or they won't sound right, even if
added in post-production. But like I said, it's rare to do it this
way.
It's common practice in the metal world afaik. One of my bandmates has a
little (Reaper) based homestudio and virtually all metal bands he
records are re-amped through his collection of tube amps.
1:41 p.m.
New subject: Applying effects when recording electric guitars: before or after recording?
2011/7/7 James Stone <jamesmstone(a)gmail.com>
On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 12:16 PM, Jeremy Jongepier
<jeremy(a)autostatic.com>
wrote:
let's keep it simple as possible: IMHO a professional guitar player in the
world should not blend his guitar in a mix without using a tube amplifier
and his set of pedals.
you can re-amp or not but that's all.
moreovrer, a recording engineer should not satisfy other whims.
regards
-r
--
*L'unica speranza di catarsi, ammesso che ne esista una, resta affidata
all'istinto di ribellione, alla rivolta non isterilita in progetti, alla
protesta violenta e viscerale.*
On 07/07/2011 12:57 PM, Brett McCoy wrote:
Interesting - but that's still a home studio. Is it common practice in
pro studios that record heavy metal bands? That's a strange way to do it... there are
some techniques that
require sustain and distortion or they won't sound right, even if
added in post-production. But like I said, it's rare to do it this
way.
It's common practice in the metal world afaik. One of my bandmates has a
little (Reaper) based homestudio and virtually all metal bands he
records are re-amped through his collection of tube amps.
2:25 p.m.
New subject: Applying effects when recording electric guitars: before or after recording?
On 07/07/2011 01:41 PM, Raffaele Morelli wrote:
let's keep it simple as possible: IMHO a
professional guitar player in the
world should not blend his guitar in a mix without using a tube amplifier
and his set of pedals.
you can re-amp or not but that's all.
moreovrer, a recording engineer should not satisfy other whims.
regards
-r
Fully agreed. But already albums are recorded using only or mostly
digital modelling. The guitarist of the Dutch band Silkstone
(http://www.fransvanessen.nl/) used NI Guitar Rig to record most of his
parts on their latest album if I have to believe the interviews ;) And
they did well in the Dutch hit charts.
Best,
Jeremy
1:51 p.m.
New subject: Applying effects when recording electric guitars: before or after recording?
On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 7:24 AM, James Stone <jamesmstone(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 12:16 PM, Jeremy Jongepier
<jeremy(a)autostatic.com> wrote:
I doubt guys like John Petrucci or Michael Romeo or Tony Iommi will
use anything but miked tube (valve) amps. Marshall, Mesa Boogie and
Laneys are still big in the metal world, although some of the hardcore
death metal bands like the harsher solid-state sounds.
--
Brett W. McCoy -- http://www.electricminstrel.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"In the rhythm of music a secret is hidden; If I were to divulge it,
it would overturn the world."
-- Jelaleddin Rumi
On 07/07/2011 12:57 PM, Brett McCoy wrote:
Interesting - but that's still a home studio. Is it common practice in
pro studios that record heavy metal bands? That's a strange way to do it... there are
some techniques that
require sustain and distortion or they won't sound right, even if
added in post-production. But like I said, it's rare to do it this
way.
It's common practice in the metal world afaik. One of my bandmates has a
little (Reaper) based homestudio and virtually all metal bands he
records are re-amped through his collection of tube amps.
2:13 p.m.
New subject: Applying effects when recording electric guitars: before or after recording?
James Stone wrote:
On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 12:16 PM, Jeremy Jongepier
<jeremy(a)autostatic.com> wrote:
A somewhat-related anecdote: In one of his short films-about-film-making
Robert Rodriguez demonstrates how he records some of the music used in
his soundtracks. He obviously gets a kick out of being able to apply any
variety of effects - including some impressive distortion - to his
cleanly recorded guitar. It's all done with PT, of course, but it's a
good demo of the utility of recording clean.
OTOH, as a player I sometimes need the sound and the soul coming out at
the same time. Can't wait then. :)
Best,
dp
On 07/07/2011 12:57 PM, Brett McCoy wrote:
Interesting - but that's still a home studio. Is it common practice in
pro studios that record heavy metal bands?
That's a strange way to do it... there are
some techniques that
require sustain and distortion or they won't sound right, even if
added in post-production. But like I said, it's rare to do it this
way.
It's common practice in the metal world afaik. One of my bandmates has
a
little (Reaper) based homestudio and virtually all metal bands he
records are re-amped through his collection of tube amps.
2:30 p.m.
New subject: Applying effects when recording electric guitars: before or after recording?
--- On Thu, 7/7/11, Dave Phillips <dlphillips(a)woh.rr.com> wrote:
From: Dave Phillips <dlphillips(a)woh.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [LAU] Applying effects when recording electric guitars: before or after
recording?
To: "James Stone" <jamesmstone(a)gmail.com>
Cc: linux-audio-user(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
Date: Thursday, July 7, 2011, 8:13 AM
James Stone wrote:
Interesting - but that's still a home studio. Is it common practice in
you can do "both at the same time" of course :)
Play your guitar through effects directed to your amp (used as live monitoring in this
case), and record the clean sound at the same time (you need a signal splitter, like a
half-normalled module on a patch-bay for example).
This way you can still have the live feel while playing and recording, and you can reamp
the recorded material later on, fine-tune the effecs a posteriori, etc. You can of course
record the distorted sound at the same time you record the clean one by outputting your
amp output to your recording gears.
Cheers!
J.
On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 12:16 PM, Jeremy Jongepier
<jeremy(a)autostatic.com>
wrote:
> On 07/07/2011 12:57 PM, Brett McCoy wrote:
>
>> That's a strange way to do it... there are
some techniques that
>> require sustain and distortion or they
won't
sound right, even if
>> added in post-production. But like I
said,
it's rare to do it this
>> way.
>>
> It's common practice in the metal world afaik. One
of my bandmates has a
> little (Reaper) based homestudio and
virtually all
metal bands he
> records are re-amped through his collection
of
tube amps.
pro studios that record heavy metal bands?
A somewhat-related anecdote: In one of his short
films-about-film-making Robert Rodriguez demonstrates how he
records some of the music used in his soundtracks. He
obviously gets a kick out of being able to apply any variety
of effects - including some impressive distortion - to his
cleanly recorded guitar. It's all done with PT, of course,
but it's a good demo of the utility of recording clean.
OTOH, as a player I sometimes need the sound and the soul
coming out at the same time. Can't wait then. :)
4:12 p.m.
New subject: Applying effects when recording electric guitars: before or after recording?
On Thu, 07 Jul 2011 08:13:01 -0400
Dave Phillips <dlphillips(a)woh.rr.com> wrote:
James Stone wrote:
hello, what's PT?
renato
On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 12:16 PM, Jeremy
Jongepier
<jeremy(a)autostatic.com> wrote:
A somewhat-related anecdote: In one of his short
films-about-film-making Robert Rodriguez demonstrates how he records
some of the music used in his soundtracks. He obviously gets a kick
out of being able to apply any variety of effects - including some
impressive distortion - to his cleanly recorded guitar. It's all done
with PT, of course, but it's a good demo of the utility of recording
clean.
On 07/07/2011 12:57 PM, Brett McCoy wrote:
Interesting - but that's still a home studio. Is it common practice
in pro studios that record heavy metal bands?
That's a strange way to do it... there are
some techniques that
require sustain and distortion or they won't sound right, even if
added in post-production. But like I said, it's rare to do it this
way.
It's common practice in the metal world afaik. One of my bandmates
has a little (Reaper) based homestudio and virtually all metal
bands he records are re-amped through his collection of tube amps.
4:14 p.m.
New subject: Applying effects when recording electric guitars: before or after recording?
On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 10:12 AM, Renato <rennabh(a)gmail.com> wrote:
ProTools. Some random audio app used on one of them other operating systems. :-)
--
Brett W. McCoy -- http://www.electricminstrel.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"In the rhythm of music a secret is hidden; If I were to divulge it,
it would overturn the world."
-- Jelaleddin Rumi
A
somewhat-related anecdote: In one of his short
films-about-film-making Robert Rodriguez demonstrates how he records
some of the music used in his soundtracks. He obviously gets a kick
out of being able to apply any variety of effects - including some
impressive distortion - to his cleanly recorded guitar. It's all done
with PT, of course, but it's a good demo of the utility of recording
clean.
hello, what's PT?
4:32 p.m.
New subject: Applying effects when recording electric guitars: before or after recording?
On Thu, 7 Jul 2011 10:14:17 -0400
Brett McCoy <idragosani(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 10:12 AM, Renato
<rennabh(a)gmail.com> wrote:
ProTools. Some random audio app used on one of them other operating
systems. :-)
ah yes, think I've read of it somewhere... it must be one of those
mainstream things :)
renato
A
somewhat-related anecdote: In one of his short
films-about-film-making Robert Rodriguez demonstrates how he
records some of the music used in his soundtracks. He obviously
gets a kick out of being able to apply any variety of effects -
including some impressive distortion - to his cleanly recorded
guitar. It's all done with PT, of course, but it's a good demo of
the utility of recording clean.
hello, what's PT? 
7:51 p.m.
New subject: Applying effects when recording electric guitars: before or after recording?
On Thu, 7 Jul 2011 16:32:21 +0200
Renato <rennabh(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 7 Jul 2011 10:14:17 -0400
Brett McCoy <idragosani(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Being both poor and unprofessional, I bung the guitar direct into the soundcard
(oh OK, via a plain little pre-amp), then, via JACK, have one path directed to
rakarrack and another to timemachine.
rakarrack kindly connects itself to both the input and the output and loads my
preferred effects - so that nice and quick, and timemachine has that lovely big
button.
Instant 'full' sound and at the same time clean recording. Never noticed any
latency when playing, and I actually have no idea at all what it's set to in
qjackctl - once set, totally forgotten :)
--
Will J Godfrey
http://www.musically.me.uk
Say you have a poem and I have a tune.
Exchange them and we can both have a poem, a tune, and a song.
On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 10:12 AM, Renato
<rennabh(a)gmail.com> wrote:
ProTools. Some random audio app used on one of them other operating
systems. :-)
ah yes, think I've read of it somewhere... it must be one of those
mainstream things :)
renato A
somewhat-related anecdote: In one of his short
films-about-film-making Robert Rodriguez demonstrates how he
records some of the music used in his soundtracks. He obviously
gets a kick out of being able to apply any variety of effects -
including some impressive distortion - to his cleanly recorded
guitar. It's all done with PT, of course, but it's a good demo of
the utility of recording clean.
hello, what's PT? 
6:04 p.m.
New subject: Why does Hydrogen sound poor in Ubuntu 11.4 ?
I have had good luck with Hydrogen on Debian and Fedora, but
with this 11.4 release of Ubuntu the sound quality is not good.
Anyone else notice this ?
1:24 p.m.
New subject: Applying effects when recording electric guitars: before or after recording?
On 07/07/2011 12:57 PM, Brett McCoy wrote:
there are some techniques that
require sustain and distortion or they won't sound right, even if
added in post-production.
+1, but my guess is that a guitarist will record those parts by other
means (so probably through effects + amp). There are a lot of bedroom
producers around these days, it's almost like the next big thing. The
guitarists among those don't always have the time or the facilities to
record guitars the analogue way.
Best,
Jeremy
1:47 p.m.
New subject: Applying effects when recording electric guitars: before or after recording?
On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 7:24 AM, Jeremy Jongepier <jeremy(a)autostatic.com> wrote:
On 07/07/2011 12:57 PM, Brett McCoy wrote:
Amp modeling is really big (using Amplitube, Line 6 hardware or even
guitarix), you can get pretty good sounds out of that. Amp modeling
played through a tube amp and miked gives you the best of both
worlds... more control over your tone and the warm tube-y sound.
--
Brett W. McCoy -- http://www.electricminstrel.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"In the rhythm of music a secret is hidden; If I were to divulge it,
it would overturn the world."
-- Jelaleddin Rumi
there are some techniques that
require sustain and distortion or they won't sound right, even if
added in post-production.
+1, but my guess is that a guitarist will record those parts by other
means (so probably through effects + amp). There are a lot of bedroom
producers around these days, it's almost like the next big thing. The
guitarists among those don't always have the time or the facilities to
record guitars the analogue way. 
5:38 p.m.
New subject: Applying effects when recording electric guitars: before or after recording?
On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 6:47 AM, Brett McCoy <idragosani(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Amp modeling is really big (using Amplitube, Line 6
hardware or even
guitarix), you can get pretty good sounds out of that. Amp modeling
played through a tube amp and miked gives you the best of both
worlds... more control over your tone and the warm tube-y sound.
While I don't want to argue the quality or a matter of preference or
the exact implementation--I completely disagree with the principle!
Amp modeling software should take the place of using tube amps in the
first place. The filtering and non-linear qualities of the amp being
modeled are what you want to reproduce, not the noise, or the
transformers' hum. The notion of creating amp modeling
software/hardware is to reduce costs compared to keeping a ton of
different amps for just the right tone, per application. I think the
most efficient thing to do is to introduce the characteristic
distortion and filtering you want by a processor.
So, you should run the processed sound through an amp that has very
clean, low distortion characteristics (would be nice if such
hardware/software had capability to analyze the output of the
amplifier in use... one can dream... or design it).
That said... nothing sounds like a tube amp, quite like a tube amp :)
Amp modeling software doesn't take the place of tube amps in every
application. Just watch out for the audiophile hocus-pocus that comes
with comparing amplifiers to each other.
5:44 p.m.
New subject: Applying effects when recording electric guitars: before or after recording?
On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 11:38 AM, Charles Henry <czhenry(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 6:47 AM, Brett McCoy
<idragosani(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I use some amp modeling software for recording and experimenting, but
for the real meat of my guitar work, I still mike my trusty Marshall
head via 4x12 cab, it's really what's needed for a thick powerful
sound :-) Usually what I will do is layer sounds, put down a couple
rhythm tracks using a modeled tone and then layer the live amp on top
of that to sweeten the sound (and for the lead guitar parts).
One other benefit of amp modeling, of course, is that you can record
in an apartment or similar where you can't blast a Marshall stack just
to record.
--
Brett W. McCoy -- http://www.electricminstrel.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"In the rhythm of music a secret is hidden; If I were to divulge it,
it would overturn the world."
-- Jelaleddin Rumi
Amp modeling is really big (using Amplitube, Line
6 hardware or even
guitarix), you can get pretty good sounds out of that. Amp modeling
played through a tube amp and miked gives you the best of both
worlds... more control over your tone and the warm tube-y sound.
While I don't want to argue the quality or a matter of preference or
the exact implementation--I completely disagree with the principle!
Amp modeling software should take the place of using tube amps in the
first place. The filtering and non-linear qualities of the amp being
modeled are what you want to reproduce, not the noise, or the
transformers' hum. The notion of creating amp modeling
software/hardware is to reduce costs compared to keeping a ton of
different amps for just the right tone, per application. I think the
most efficient thing to do is to introduce the characteristic
distortion and filtering you want by a processor.
So, you should run the processed sound through an amp that has very
clean, low distortion characteristics (would be nice if such
hardware/software had capability to analyze the output of the
amplifier in use... one can dream... or design it).
That said... nothing sounds like a tube amp, quite like a tube amp :)
Amp modeling software doesn't take the place of tube amps in every
application. Just watch out for the audiophile hocus-pocus that comes
with comparing amplifiers to each other. 
5:46 p.m.
New subject: Applying effects when recording electric guitars: before or after recording?
On Thu, 2011-07-07 at 10:38 -0500, Charles Henry wrote:
(would be nice if such
hardware/software had capability to analyze the output of the
amplifier in use... one can dream... or design it).
Is this what you're looking for?
http://kemper-amps.com/
Rich...
9:31 p.m.
New subject: Applying effects when recording electric guitars: before or after recording?
On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 10:45 AM, Ricardus Vincente
<wizardofgosz(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 2011-07-07 at 10:38 -0500, Charles Henry
wrote:
That is... way too cool. That's more than anything I was thinking of.
I'd prefer software solutions (open source ofc) over hardware, but if
I'd buy anything--that'd pretty much be it.
However I still have my doubts. Because that's more than just
analyzing and amplifier and duplicating it--it extends the control
with 50 other knobs and tuners. Do I trust other engineers? not all
the time
I would just like it to do some "simple" system identification and
correction stuff, then apply a given linear + non-linear dsp effect
profile for amp.
In other words, start with an arbitrary amp, clean it up, then make it
dirty in just the right way. If you already have the amp, you can
work ahead through steps 1&2 in the lab, and goto step 3.
But if you're working on step 3, and you don't have a clean channel to
begin with, then you're blind as to what the combined effects are
going to be.
(would be nice if such
hardware/software had capability to analyze the output of the
amplifier in use... one can dream... or design it).
Is this what you're looking for?
http://kemper-amps.com/
Rich...
9:13 p.m.
New subject: Applying effects when recording electric guitars: before or after recording?
On 07/07/2011 01:47 PM, Brett McCoy wrote:
Amp modeling
played through a tube amp and miked gives you the best of both
worlds...
Effects yes but I don't see the benefit of routing an emulated tube amp
through a real analogue tube amp. Yeah, maybe an ultra clean analogue
amp so one can use the speaker outputs but then I wouldn't use a tube amp.
Best,
Jeremy
1:09 p.m.
New subject: Applying effects when recording electric guitars: before or after recording?
2011/7/7 Roberto Suárez Soto <talkingxouba(a)gmail.com>om>:
So, what do the real pros (that'd be you ;-))
do? My first thought is to
"prototype" using the preamp's effects, and once I have a good idea of
what
I need, record "clean" and apply effects in Ardour. But that sounds like a
lot of work; and before doing it, I'd rather ask if there's some shortcut.
Thanks in advance.
I think it depends what effects you mean - if you are talking about
guitar distortion and the like, my understanding is that most pros
will mic the musician's valce amp and record whatever comes out -
using the musician's preferred signal chain/pedal board. When it
comes to effects like compression etc, these _may_ be added after the
recording - but again usually using hardware effects processors
(costing 10k plus).
When my band recorded at a professional studio, though, the
engineer/producer did add some guitar effects post-recording. It was a
quick hack-job though and I don't know if she would have done that if
we had two weeks instead of one day to record the song.
Regarding what you should do in a home environment, I think trying to
mimic the pros is a surefire way to problems - as people have already
said - recording clean and adding effects afterwards opens the way to
endless tweaking (and not necessarily a great sound). I would
recommend reading Geurilla Home Recording - the author (Bobby
Owsinski) is a big fan of getting the tracks right while they are laid
down with little post-processing (for home recording environments).
Personally I think the V-Amp2 is a great virtual amp - to my ears the
distortion is very good - probably better than the Pod series in some
aspects. If I were to try to improve my guitar sound I would probably
go and buy a physical valve amp and some pedals - but as others have
pointed out, this is an expensive route - and possibly won't get
better effects. To my ears V-Amp2 is better than guitarix (at the
moment) - seems to have more varied sounds, and less "fizzy", but
maybe that's just because of the knobs! :)
James
7:02 p.m.
Le 07/07/2011 09:58, Roberto Suárez Soto a écrit :
Hi,
I usually try to record electric guitars with minimal effects
(i.e., only distortion or a bit of reverb), and later add them in the
mixing process. But, though that may make sense recording-wise to
achieve a good sound, it's not the same with regards to playing. For
example: if I want to know how something sounds with delay, or chorus,
or flanger, or whatever, I like to play with it (using my guitar's
preamp effects). It's more inspiring to do so, if you know what I mean.
So, what do the real pros (that'd be you ;-)) do? My first thought
is to "prototype" using the preamp's effects, and once I have a good
idea of what I need, record "clean" and apply effects in Ardour. But
that sounds like a lot of work; and before doing it, I'd rather ask if
there's some shortcut.
Thanks in advance.
--
Roberto Suárez Soto
Hi Roberto,
the best way could be to record 2 tracks if you can, one with your
preamp and the other clean. Then, you can re-process the clean one at
mix. Even go to your preamp and record again if don't have more than 2
tracks.
If you can't, at least try to not put much reverb in the record. What I
like to do is to fix the "color" of the amp sound, and record it without
reverb, delay, chorus, etc.. with a mic, (5W amp in one of the bathroom
corners) and add effects later if it's needed. Sometimes add delay or
reverb in the monitoring channel, but don't record it, cause it's always
too much reverb if do this way (can't explain why, but it is).
Of course, like said before, pros don't do that, but they don't have the
same money to put in hardware... A big Eventide to monitoring is often
used in studios, w/record a clean track...
To end, if you want to record clean and just 'imagine' the dirty disto
you will apply later... good luck !!!
HTH,
Fred
10 Jul
10 Jul
12:31 p.m.
New subject: Applying effects when recording electric guitars: before or after recording?
2011/7/7 Roberto Suárez Soto <talkingxouba(a)gmail.com>om>:
Hi,
I usually try to record electric guitars with minimal effects (i.e.,
only distortion or a bit of reverb), and later add them in the mixing
process. But, though that may make sense recording-wise to achieve a good
sound, it's not the same with regards to playing. For example: if I want to
know how something sounds with delay, or chorus, or flanger, or whatever, I
like to play with it (using my guitar's preamp effects). It's more inspiring
to do so, if you know what I mean.
So, what do the real pros (that'd be you ;-)) do? My first thought is to
"prototype" using the preamp's effects, and once I have a good idea of
what
I need, record "clean" and apply effects in Ardour. But that sounds like a
lot of work; and before doing it, I'd rather ask if there's some shortcut.
Thanks in advance.
--
Roberto Suárez Soto
For me, I record with all the effects on as I just want what I hear to
be on the recording. The way you play changes depending on the effect
you have on, and you'll change your phrasing depending. The 3 knob
reverb on my fantastically lovely supro amp totally changes how I
play.
Every time I think about recording set up and tech I remember:
http://westtownrecording.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/shitty11.pdf
http://westtownrecording.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/shitty2.pdf
The daptone info. Buy the cheapest crappiest mic you can find :) There
albums sound good to me!
Loki
11:24 p.m.
New subject: Applying effects when recording electric guitars: before or after recording?
On Sun, 10 Jul 2011, Loki Davison wrote:
For me, I record with all the effects on as I just
want what I hear to
be on the recording. The way you play changes depending on the effect
you have on, and you'll change your phrasing depending. The 3 knob
reverb on my fantastically lovely supro amp totally changes how I
play.
Since this thread has been going on for awhile, I guess I'll mention
what I've been doing for this:
I'm using a mixer with 4 subs, plus a main L/R mix. It also has direct
outs on almost all the channel strips. Basically, that means that I can
have up to two stereo submixes per overdubbing pass when recording, plus
as many direct out's from individual instrument channels as I want, all
without touching my main L/R mix.
That allows me to setup the instrument channels to all either go to one
of the two pairs of subs (which are being used as two assignable L/R
mixes), or for some individual instruments to not get routed to
anything, and get recorded off of their own channel strip's direct out.
No actual instrument ever gets routed to the board's main L/R.
What does go to the main L/R is the effects return mix. Each
overdubbing pass catches the effects that are being used with the
instruments in that pass, recorded from the main L/R. The main L/R gets
recorded on its own track in Ardour for each overdubbing pass, so you
end up with the wet mix you were listening to while you recorded, and
the dry instrument tracks, all separated by overdubbing passes. (In
other words, you'll get a separate "wet" track in Ardour for each
overdubbing pass you do, that came from the main L/R for that pass.)
The advantage of this is you have all your dry tracks, the effects
returns that you listened to while you played them, and the ability to
substitute or mix in other effects if you're not happy afterward. The
disadvantage is that the effects are shared on each overdubbing pass
between all the instruments in that pass. There's no way around that
except to do more passes, with fewer instruments in each one, if you'd
like to isolate your wet mixes more.
There's probably a more professional way to do this that they use in big
studios, but so far, that's the solution that I've worked out. And
considering that I've only got a 4-sub mixer, this may be the best I can
do with my setup anyway.
--
+ Brent A. Busby +
+ Sr. UNIX Systems Admin + Vote for Cthulhu.
+ University of Chicago +
+ James Franck Institute + Why settle for the lesser evil?
11:37 p.m.
New subject: Applying effects when recording electric guitars: before or after recording?
On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 04:24:40PM -0500, Brent Busby wrote:
There's probably a more professional way to do
this that they use in big
studios, but so far, that's the solution that I've worked out. And
considering that I've only got a 4-sub mixer, this may be the best I can
do with my setup anyway.
Given the limits you are forced to accept, what you are
doing *is* the professional way. Well done and explained.
Ciao,
--
FA
4874
days inactive
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days old
linux-audio-user@lists.linuxaudio.org
47 comments
24 participants
participants (24)
-
Alexandre Prokoudine -
Arve Barsnes -
Brent Busby -
Brett McCoy -
Cedric Roux -
Charles Henry -
Dale Powell -
Dave Phillips -
Folderol -
Fons Adriaensen -
fred -
James Stone -
James Warden -
Jeremy Jongepier -
Jeremy Jongepier -
Loki Davison -
Lorenzo Sutton -
Philipp Überbacher -
Raffaele Morelli -
Renato -
Ricardus Vincente -
robert lazarski -
Robert Vogel -
Roberto Suárez Soto